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Delete - in line with
WP:NMEDIA, I could find no evidence of a significant award, serving a historic purpose, being authoritative or influential, being frequently cited or being a significant publication in a niche market (it perhaps comes close to fulfilling the last one) but due to the complete lack of available sourcing, it's hard to support a keep argument and, ultimately fails GNG
Spiderone(Talk to Spider)11:18, 27 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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Non notable NGO started in 2020 that fails to meet
WP:NGO, the organization lacks in-depth significant coverage in reliable sources independent of them. A before search predominantly links me to user generated sources or unreliable sources such as
this. Celestina007 (
talk)
21:50, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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Non notable film, appears to fail
WP:NFILM. Only thing found besides database entries and videos was the article that it cited which only talks about how the film received a "thunderous response from the audience", which can hardly be counted as a review. No reviews or other items to support
WP:NFILM were found.
PROD removed by creator, with the following note left on my talk page: "I have sourced all the articles related to that to movie,despite these why have you asked to delete the page." As I have stated, only one citation in the article and it does nothing to establish notability based on Wikipedia guidelines.
Donaldd23 (
talk)
21:45, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete: Unsourced article. I think in this case the nominator should have moved it to draftspace to give the author more time to add sources if any. Since it's here already and from sources I've seen from search, it'll definitely not pass
WP:NFILM.
Riteboke (
talk)
08:24, 27 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. I find the 'delete' arguments to be far stronger regarding our policies on inclusion, notwithstanding any potential issues regarding sockpuppetry etc.
Daniel (
talk)
02:12, 28 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Fails
WP:GNG. The club is only a third-tier Iraqi club which, apparently, has never played in the
Iraq FA Cup. Database websites such as Soccerway.com and Global Sports Archive don't have the club. Not even Kooora.com includes the club in their database, and they usually even have very minor teams (they only have a
similarly-named Bahraini handball team).
Nehme149921:39, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment I did not understand where the problem is in the article. Is writing an article about a club that plays in the third division prohibited? Can you explain more?
Saimari (
talk)
22:31, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
I read the topic in the link you are referring to, and I did not understand what the error was in the article, where exactly is the error, please explain that.
Saimari (
talk)
22:37, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Saimari: The article fails point 1 of
WP:GNG (it lack significant coverage).
WP:INDISCRIMINATE states: "merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia". Just because the club exists, doesn't mean it merits a Wikipedia article. There is barely anything to be said of the team. Not even database websites (which on their own aren't enough to confer notability) have the club.
Nehme149922:51, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Two sources were mentioned in the article, the first includes respected Iraqi clubs, and the year of its establishment, including this club, and the second source represents a press article on a well-known website about the preparations of this club in the second division. The real problem is the poor press coverage of the first and second divisions in Iraq, not the club's reputation. Anyway, I don't see a good reason to delete the article.
Saimari (
talk)
23:09, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
No problem, we each have our own opinion. This is why I opened a discussion for deletion; other users will also voice their opinions based on the comments above.
Nehme149923:13, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Does this harm the admissibility of the article? I previously presented that there is a weakness in the news coverage of the first and second divisions clubs in Iraq, to the extent that it is called in Iraq (Dawri Al-Mazalim) meaning: The oppresseds league, because the press in Iraq does not care about this leagues, and does not report any news about it. But most of those clubs are old and some were Premier League champions in previous years. I think that having two sources in the article is sufficient for now, and that other people can cooperate to develop the article in the future.
Saimari (
talk)
16:24, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Saimari: The issue is that it doesn't seem that there is any room for improvement for the future. For the clubs currently in the Iraqi 3rd tier who have once played in the 1st tier, there is not problem. Al-Dair specifically doesn't seem to have ever participated in the first division.
Nehme149916:54, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Nehme1499: Why do you rule this out,
Newroz was a third-tier club two years ago and was not even known, but the team this season was promoted to the Premier League (first-tier), and the article that wrote year ago here was a very small article with only three sources and was accepted, and I developed it a few days ago, see it
here.
Saimari (
talk)
16:37, 22 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Not delete There are many articles in Wikipedia that have been accepted in this way, and the reasons given by Saimary are acceptable, and his discussion is logical.
Admosb (
talk)
13:01, 22 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Apparently Saimari began developing the article, and adding sources. I think that any article can be developed if we cooperate on this and think of building instead of demolishing.
Sambein (
talk)
23:01, 23 July 2021 (UTC)reply
You should know that the second division league has several stages, the first stage is a local stage, then the top teams from each group qualify to play in the final stage in the qualifying round.
Sambein (
talk)
15:19, 26 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment - closing admin may wish to note that there is an
investigation taking place regarding some of the votes in this discussion, which itself has been disrupted once already. The result of that investigation may well affect the consensus of this AfD.
Spiderone(Talk to Spider)14:25, 26 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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The result was no consensus. Those wishing to delete the article have failed to advance an argument against merging, so per
WP:ATD the content will be merged. However, there is no consensus on where the content should go, so someone should just be
WP:BOLD and do it.
King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠06:51, 28 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Is this a joke?
Unencyclopedic list of characters that happen to share an element of their name. We don't have a list of every fictional "Bill", nor should we.
Beeblebrox (
talk)
21:04, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Come to think of it, I myself have added to sublists in dab and name pages (though I had not seen standalone lists for fictional characters alone). Then again, I've never claimed to be in my right mind.
Clarityfiend (
talk)
07:33, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge to
Taylor (surname) and
Taylor (given name), respectively. This is a list that consists to a significant part of existing articles. Therefore it is useful for navigational purposes and should not be deleted. I would be fine with keep based on that, but currently I see no need that this has to be separate from
Taylor (surname)/
Taylor (given name). I think the relevance of those pages is not in doubt. If a fictional Taylors sections within
Taylor (surname)/
Taylor (given name) should become to large or dominant, then it would make sense to split them out and the list we currently have would be justified based on
WP:SPLIT.
Daranios (
talk)
13:51, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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A non-notable pornography industry award. Most of the references are to obvious press releases in industry trade publications; the remainder are to the websites of award recipients or even to Wikipedia articles. Cheers,
gnu5721:01, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete: (from Discussion: RfC Closed 25 March 2019 Remove.) "significant awards" do not correlate to the subjects meeting WP:BASIC, to which PORNBIO is a supplement. We have WP:ENT and this is sufficient. PORNBIO is gone for good; this does not meet WP:BASIC. Off to the slaughterhouse. --
Whiteguru (
talk)
21:10, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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The three sources appear to be photo credits rather than significant coverage. The actual content of the article is unsourced, but appears to have been copied from
https://www.tomsewell.com/tom
Note: there is a British artist with the same name. That's a different person.
Vexations (
talk)
19:48, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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Keep - Just from poking around for a few minutes, looks like she meets
WP:GNG. While we would expect someone like this to get lots of coverage in deprecated tabloids, she is also covered in lots of tabloids that we generally do consider reliable (
WP:RSPSOURCES), such as The Cut or The Telegraph Fashion. She apparently also had a feature in
Teen Vogue, as an example of the reliable coverage that exists about her.
Suriname0 (
talk)
17:24, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Weak keep - is in national newspapers a lot, although the overwhelming majority of it is just daily updates on what she's wearing and what she's posting on social media from Daily Mail and The Sun. There is some coverage in
The Independent and
The Telegraph but I couldn't find any significant coverage in the BBC or The Guardian. I did search Spanish, French and German newspapers and there were hits although all of it was related to her
OnlyFans.
Spiderone(Talk to Spider)08:57, 26 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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The result was delete. This debate ultimately boiled down to whether this fits our criteria for encyclopedic content or not. The consensus in this debate is that the list does not meet this criteria.
Daniel (
talk)
02:16, 28 July 2021 (UTC)reply
An absurd, non-encyclopedic list of people who, at one time, were fugitives, but now are not, either because they were caught or because they died hundreds of years ago (although apparently this never happened in the history of the human race before 1554, according to this list). I do enjoy how the way the list is structured, it implies that Josef Mengele was fleeing from Nazi Germany, that's fun. And also how like 80% of the list is Americans from the last 150 years or so. Oddly, apparently nobody anywhere on earth was a fugitive who is no longer being sought between 1926 and 1929, the jailers must've been really on top of their game for those three years. This is just ridiculous, It's embarrassing to even know it is hosted here.
Beeblebrox (
talk)
19:24, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Define "huge success" please. I'm certainly not seeing one here. An incomplete list of every person who was ever wanted by law enforcement, but now is not is not an encyclopedia topic. Frankly your attitude abut this almost comes across as deliberate trolling.
Beeblebrox (
talk)
20:07, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete The talk page comments seem to imply that this list is overly broad and vaguely defined, and based on most of these people no longer being sought due to death, I'm inclined to agree with the former. There may be thousands of notable criminals like that. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄)
20:13, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Pageviews have spiked because this page is being mocked as an example of a terrible Wikipedia article on an external criticism site. I would also assume that whoever closes this discussion would know perfectly well that pageview counts are in no way a valid argument to keep an article.
Beeblebrox (
talk)
20:26, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
I was searching without crap article which seems to be the parlance for that very nasty forum that has been attacking the editor concerned with this article including suppositions of mental health which would have resulted in a block on wikipedia. Furthermore the topic wasn't raised there until 18 July and yet this article had monthly page views of 47,000 back in March so the link to page views is tenuous, imv
Atlantic306 (
talk)
23:24, 22 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep Article is well-referenced. I 'do' believe the article needs a little pruning to remove the "vague" insertions, and can hold said vague insertions in the berth (chronologically "to add" with tomorrow's news). As stands, it can encourage insertions of non-notable instances. To summarize, the vast majority of entries need splicing into their own articles/subtopic articles if the page as stands isn't deemed significant enough (this is my opinion of course). An invaluable collection of references to the topic though.--
Kieronoldham (
talk)
20:39, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Referencing is not the issue here. The issue is that this is a list that is basically "anyone on earth who was ever wanted for any reason, and now is not wanted, also for any reason." That is a hopelessly vague, unencyclopedic structure for a list article (as you seem to acknowledge). I don't see why splitting it further makes any sense as the individual entries already have their own articles.
Beeblebrox (
talk)
20:47, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete There are no reliable sources that talk about fugitives who are no longer sought as a defined group. This concept is the creation of a Wikipedia editor. What connects fugitives from the 1500s with 21st century fugitives? Nothing. We already have "fugitive" categories, but the "no longer sought" qualifier is just plain silly and unencyclopedic.
Cullen328Let's discuss it02:13, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete. I initially thought this would be fugitives who were exonerated (which might be worthy; I'm looking at you
Richard Kimble), but they seem to be, for the most part, people who were caught or killed or simply died before they could be apprehended. I strongly doubt that anyone else has compiled a list mashing together these three disparate criteria, so
WP:NLIST applies.
List of fugitives from justice who disappeared is good enough.
Clarityfiend (
talk)
05:51, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
and the nominator advertised this AfD at the aforementioned forum where user Stanistani is an active admin who commented on the thread and followed up with a delete vote here - off-wiki canvassing in my view,
Atlantic306 (
talk)
23:33, 22 July 2021 (UTC)reply
The article was already under discussion there and I merely mentioned that I had gone ahead an nominated it for deletion. Really not the same thing as informing one specific editor with no previous connection to the article, but who is apparently sympathetic.
Beeblebrox (
talk)
18:30, 26 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Moderate Keep. I'm not a fan of lists, as tagging/categorising can often be better, but some lists can be useful. The fact that we have a "fugitive" category militates against this list, but in its favour is the fact that this list is trying to provide information on the shared (and notable) concept of "fugitive, but got away with it". Other commenters have pointed out that there are inconsistencies in how the people listed here are "no longer sought", and claim that this is a weakness of this list; actually, I think it's a strength, and perhaps the most useful thing about this page: what we have here is a view of how wide the possibilities for "no longer sought" can be. Some concepts are well-explained by definitions, but others require ostension, and this list helps by showing how "no longer sought" can come about.
RomanSpa (
talk)
11:49, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
delete The distinction between this and the "disappeared" is murky, since presumably after a hundred years or even less they stop trying to capture everyone. But if it makes sense to divide them up by one outcome, it makes sense to do so for the whole range of outcomes, and conversely, if it makes sense to lump some of them together, it makes sense to lump them all together and put in a column for the outcome. This particular grouping is arbitrary.
Mangoe (
talk)
12:44, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep and refine as I suggested on the talk page to fugitives who were sought for five or more years while they were / are alive or maybe three years if five is too restrictive. This article is on my watchlist so I would have commented anyway. Also regarding page views it's interesting that despite being linked at the top of every discussion we are supposed to studiously ignore them and yet when portals were discussed all the deletionists trotted out the page views, imv
Atlantic306 (
talk)
23:21, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
As Beeblebrox has pointed out, the higher-than-expected page views are because this is one of the standard pages used by critics as an example of Wikipedia at its worst, not because there's a flood of interest in the topic. ‑
Iridescent06:29, 22 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete. I've previously used this pseudoarticle as an example of the worst of Wikipedia, and haven't seen anything to change my opinion. This isn't a coherent list of any kind—it's a completely arbitrary selection of randomly chosen criminals. "Fugitive from justice who is no longer sought" as used on this article describes literally every criminal who wasn't arrested at the scene of the crime but was subsequently detained. Even if we were to restrict it only to those people with existing Wikipedia articles, we're talking hundreds of thousands of entries before it would even come close to completeness, and without at least trying for completeness it's just a piece of original research. ‑
Iridescent06:29, 22 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep. How else would readers know that fugitives who died in previous centuries are not still being pursued for posthumous prosecution? Oops, I meant delete due to lack of notabilty for the list as a topic, lack of clear inclusion criteria, and the general absurdity of a list that mixes people who have been captured, people who were killed by authorities, people who died of old age while still on the lam, etc. "It's useful" is a reasonable keep defense for some functional pages (templates, for example), but not for articles. --
RL0919 (
talk)
11:27, 22 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete One if the worst examples of a list on Wikipedia, and unsalvageable. No evidence of any sources discussing "fugitives who have evaded justice and no longer being sought" in particular, and the criteria is so vague as to be meaningless.
Pawnkingthree (
talk)
23:44, 22 July 2021 (UTC)reply
There are plenty of sources discussing fugitives which is obviously a notable topic, this is just a reduction of that topic. Also an entry qualification added that a fugitive would have to have been on the run for 5 years while alive would trim the entries down, in my view
Atlantic306 (
talk)
00:00, 23 July 2021 (UTC)reply
The subject of fugitives is notable, which is why the
Fugitive article exists, as well as
Category:Fugitives. This list is about a poorly defined subset of fugitives, for which no evidence of notability has been provided. --
RL0919 (
talk)
00:20, 23 July 2021 (UTC)reply
I probably should have cited
WP:CFORK in the nomination as this is exactly what this is: a made-up subset of the overall topic, created entirely here on Wikipedia as opposed to being based on coverage of this specific subset. That's not how it is supposed to work. Of course sources can be found about the subject of fugitives in general, and nobody is suggesting we delete all content on the broader subject so bringing that up is a red herring.
Beeblebrox (
talk)
02:12, 23 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete The relevant PAG is
WP:LISTN. So the question is whether "fugitives from justice who are no longer sought" is a categorisation that exists in reliable sources. Googling "fugitives from justice who are no longer sought" only brings up Wikipedia as a source, so my current answer to that question is no, but am happy to change my mind if someone finds me a source that shows this grouping is actually something that exists outside the imagination of Wikipedia editors.
ProcrastinatingReader (
talk)
21:26, 25 July 2021 (UTC)reply
That having been said, it is well sourced, meets our core content policies, and
the pageviews suggests it provides purpose to our readers, so a reasonable argument can be made to disregard the list notability guideline in this case.
ProcrastinatingReader (
talk)
21:29, 25 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment on page view statistics I'd rather not go here, but since people keep holding up page views as evidence I feel I must. Page views do not reflect the number of unique visitors, only how many times the page was viewed in total. So, take July 4 for example. The page's primary author made over forty edits, presumably viewing the page many times while doing so. I'm not suggesting there is deliberate inflation of page views here, merely that it is not a trustworthy metric. Per
WP:PAGEVIEWS: "Page stats can help determine how popular a page is, but are not an indication of a topic's notability. Wikipedia's inclusion guidelines are based on coverage found in reliable sources. If a page's stats are low, it is not a reason to consider it for deletion, and if high it is not a reason to save it from deletion." This simply should not be a consideration here.
Beeblebrox (
talk)
19:47, 26 July 2021 (UTC)reply
If I searched for "list of fugitives" on Google, I'd be expecting pages from Interpol and national law enforcement agencies, not Wikipedia. Prioritizing lists of people who are not actively sought fugitives seems counterproductive. (Not that what Google does should be much of our concern.) --
RL0919 (
talk)
16:33, 27 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete stumbled upon this page while reading about
Idi Amin and while the author seems to have invested much time and effort into this list, it also seems absurdly non-encyclopedic to me. Absolutely concur with what most in the Delete camp have been saying. Maybe a standalone article should exist for fugitives who managed to evade justice for so long that authorities just gave up looking for them, but this list seems to cater for criminals who were explicitly caught or killed, which I suppose is the fate of a vast majority of fugitives.
Kingoflettuce (
talk)
12:57, 27 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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I feel somewhat bad putting this up for AfD as the edit history indicates this page was made and then later prepared into an obituary page by the individuals son. I originally put this up for AfD for appearing to not pass
WP:PROF and it was subsequently deprodded without reason. I have since done a deeper dive into this individual to check and it seems he fails to pass
WP:PROF as well as
WP:BIO.
Arguments for WP:PROF Non-notability
1. The person's research has had a significant impact in their scholarly discipline, broadly construed, as demonstrated by independent reliable sources.
No. There is some confoundation here as there is another Charles E. Wicks[1] who seems to be involved with the US geological survey who would pass WP:PROF (if he is also a professor) on this measure. However, for Charles E. Wicks the chemist[2] he does not come close to meeting criteria 1 only having an h-score of 4 and 6 publications according to scopus, and google scholar backs this up. Although, he does have one book publication that has been cited over 700 times,[3] but I do not believe a single book (though highly cited) is quite enough to pass C1, more so because the book is effectively a collection of physical properties of compounds. I do wonder if it's possible he does have more publications as it is stated he was involved in research for 37 years. Since most of this occured from the 60's onward I do wonder if they could be cataloged poorly.
2.The person has received a highly prestigious academic award or honor at a national or international level.
No. He has won awards according to an old faculty page, but they all appear to be internal to oregon state university[4] and thus don't meet this criteria. I wasn't able to find any other awards.
3. The person has been an elected member of a highly selective and prestigious scholarly society or association (e.g., a National Academy of Sciences or the Royal Society) or a fellow of a major scholarly society which reserves fellow status as a highly selective honor (e.g., Fellow of the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers).
No. No evidence of this that was elected to a major society.
4. The person's academic work has made a significant impact in the area of higher education, affecting a substantial number of academic institutions.
No. Does not seem to be the case, which would be expected due to his low publication count.
5. The person has held a named chair appointment or distinguished professor appointment at a major institution of higher education and research, or an equivalent position in countries where named chairs are uncommon.
No. He was department chair for 17 years, but I couldn't find any mentions of this being a named chair. So, close, but not quite.
6. The person has held a highest-level elected or appointed administrative post at a major academic institution or major academic society.
No. He seems to have only stayed in the chemical engineering department through his career and did not branch out.
7. The person has had a substantial impact outside academia in their academic capacity.
No. This does not seem to be the case. Though he seems really loved by his family and was really valued by the community in which he lived.[5] However, this is the only mention of it in an obituary and it didn't seem to get news coverage. It, rather sadly doesn't count for criteria 7.
8. The person has been the head or chief editor of a major, well-established academic journal in their subject area.
No. I did not see anything about him being an editor.
Honestly, I was hoping I could find something to save this page as... well idk this just weirdly pulled on my heart strings as the page was curated by his son. But, I just couldn't find anything notable both when I put up the PROD and now when I did a second and deeper dive.
Keep The nomination takes a lot of time and words to explain that the nominator doesn't really want to delete this page. And notice that all this text has resulted in the creation of another page to hold this discussion. By convention, we will not delete this discussion page, which will be kept visible in perpetuity. So, why then are we considering deleting the page in question, which is more encyclopedic, while retaining the discussion page which is just
bureaucratic and of no general interest? It seems that the nominator thinks that there are rules which require us to do so. But we have a clear and fundamental policy which tells us what to do in such cases: "
if a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it". And the rule in question is, in any case, just a guideline which explicitly says that exceptions are possible.
For another recent, similar case, see
Theodore Cohen. I deprodded that too and then, with others, took it to the main page as a respectable
DYK which got over 2,500 views and no complaints. The encyclopedia was improved in that case, so why not this one too? Per policy
WP:ATD, "If editing can improve the page, this should be done rather than deleting the page." Let's do that instead then.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
11:28, 2 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment Thanks
Andrew for sharing a recent example about a similar article, that's helpful to compare to as a reference point. I agree that that article was good to be kept because it not only met PROF standards, he also left a strong impact which was notified in multiple obituaries signifying his notability. With this article though, I did not see as extensive coverage, nor notability on PROF standards and as such I keep my vote as delete. It's great that you spruced up the article, but it still fails notability in my view, per my initial arguments. Additionally, while I feel bad about this article being deleted, I also do still think it should be deleted. Those two feelings can and do co-exist. I do not think the rules require us to delete the article. This is ultimately a consensus process, and one I have come to respect. If it is found worthy of being kept that will be great too. I'll be satisfied with whatever the consensus is. As a side note, I hope that you will address my concerns that I outlined
on your talk page regarding approach to deprodding when you have the time, as I assume you have seen it based on your reply here. --Tautomers(
TC)19:25, 2 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment. Please don't mischaracterize what I say. While rules do not require articles to be deleted, I do still think this article should be deleted, per the analyses I have given and in respect information others have brought forward. If reasoning/evidence comes to light that causes my opinion to change, I'll update my vote in a comment accordingly. --Tautomers(
TC)21:20, 9 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete. The case of
Theodore Cohen is hardly comparable. He was a distinguished chemist known his research, not for compiling other people's work into a book. (Having said that, I do wonder at the justification for putting a picture of Isaac Asimov in his article. Asimov was indeed very famous, but not for the trivial science that he published.) 700 citations for such a compilation is not particularly impressive. A more appropriate comparison is with Edwin C. Webb, who does not have a Wikiparticle, despite having been vice-chancellor (head) of a major Australian university in addition to his distinction as a scientist. The last (1992) printed version of Enzyme Nomenclature now has 441 citations, and this count ignores the many citations to the earlier editions. Likewise, his classic book Enzymes with Malcolm Dixon has accumulated too many citations to count, but probably more than 10000.
Athel cb (
talk)
08:21, 9 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Well that's great; thank you. You created it today, after I wrote the above, so maybe my comment had a useful effect. However, it hardly affects the point, which is that 700 citations to a book published in 1963 is not very impressive (better than many, certainly, but nothing special).
Athel cb (
talk)
14:56, 9 July 2021 (UTC)reply
KeepWP:PROF is mostly geared to academics and scientists who are active today. How to apply it when the subject retired in 1987 is more equivocal; we need to think back to what citations were like in the pre-Internet days, for example. I think that Fundamentals of Momentum, Heat and Mass Transfer[1] and Thermodynamic Properties of 65 Elements[2], though co-authored, add up to a "body of work" that suffices for wiki-notability. The former keeps being brought out in new editions (currently on its seventh, apparently, with Wicks credited on the first five), which suggests it's a bit of a standard.
XOR'easter (
talk)
18:53, 9 July 2021 (UTC)reply
weak keep fails
WP:NPROF#1 without major research awards or highly cited papers or obituaries, but I think one could (weakly) argue that he passes
WP:NPROF#4 with the textbooks he authored. Another issue is the lack of any strong RS. --
hroest21:41, 12 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Weak keep. While there's little sign of
WP:NPROF C1, I believe the
WP:NPROF C4 case from the apparently fairly widely-used textbook. The other book is reasonably highly cited, and I think it saves this from being a
WP:BLP1E. The article is in relatively poor shape, but as usual,
WP:DINC.
Russ Woodroofe (
talk)
10:13, 14 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Hopefully the last re-listing. Hoping an admin comes and closes when they believe there's rough consensus or no consensus. I can't close because I !voted.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Dr. Universe (
talk)
19:21, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. While there was significant support for keep in this discussion, primarily based on the subject passing ENT and GNG due to the existence of multiple sources found in broader BEFORE checks, there was a clear majority who supported one or both arguments against sourcing (either that they weren't reliable, or that there wasn't sufficient in-depth coverage)
As there was policy-backing for both sides, including consideration of each other's reasoning, ultimately it came down to a numbers game, with a clear outcome for deletion
Nosebagbear (
talk)
00:43, 28 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep and Move to Sham Idrees (corrected spelling of his name), As sham idrees clearly comply with
WP:SIGCOV and meet with
WP:GNG. Visit following links to look at significant coverage from National Newspapers & TV channels of Pakistan:
He also meets 2nd Point of
WP: Entertainer with a very large fanbase of 6.5M Facebook fans
1, 4.1M youtube fans (1.92M Sham Idrees +2.16M Sham Idrees Vlogs + 132K The Car Guys), 1M+ Instagram fans
2. So there should be no question to his notability. Thank you.
Abdulhaseebatd (
talk)
06:40, 13 June 2021 (UTC)reply
The available references do not show the notability of the subject. The references are either Gossip articles or PR/announcements and not from
WP:SIGCOV,
WP:RS that is independent of the subject.
GermanKity (
talk)
02:16, 15 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment Wikipedia community decides which newspapers and sources are
WP:RS and not an individual alone from among us. Individuals, including me, are free to give their views or choose to make sweeping statements here. Like I said before in my comments, I consider most of the above listed sources as Reliable Sources.
Ngrewal1 (
talk)
16:11, 15 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep I have noticed this article has been further improved by the article creator
User:Abdulhaseebatd by adding many third party independent and reliable newspaper references as he has listed them above here for us. By the way, I checked them before writing these comments that they all work. In my view, this article, after these improvements, passes
WP:GNG now. Also I noticed
SharqHabib above has already 'Moved this page' to the correct name spelling of the article title.
Ngrewal1 (
talk)
18:02, 14 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: I should note that the Sharq's !vote does not appear to be policy-backed, but given GermanKity has contested the grounds for Keep, further discussion remains warranted
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Nosebagbear (
talk)
00:22, 20 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep as per Ngrewal1- He is notable among Indians and Pakistani. Most of mentioned sourced in the page are considered reliable.
Hasan (
talk)
07:21, 27 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment This is a quite controversial deletion discussion on whether the cited sources are reliable or not. I still believe those are reliable third party news references, with most being improved recently by the initial creator. And it also seems to meet the ENT# point 2 as the person has achieved huge popularity among Indians and Pakistanis both online and offline. In other words, I find Ngrewal1's explanation plausible and agree with them. —
A.A Prinon Leave a dialogue14:54, 27 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Abdulhaseebatd, the number of social media followers has nothing to do with notability. What Wikipedia needs is that
WP:SIGCOV to demonstrate notability for entertainers, Youtubers etc. "If no independent, third-party, reliable sources can be found on a topic, then Wikipedia should not have an article on it." Please refer to
WP:TRIVIALMENTIONS for future reference.
TheBirdsShedTears (
talk)
21:05, 28 June 2021 (UTC)reply
TheBirdsShedTears Well, maybe the number of social media followers has nothing to do directly with notability, but it has much to do with WP:ENT(point I tried to establish by coming up with his social media stats. I never tried to establish his notability merely by giving his social media stats). I've already shared some sources above and you can find other by visting
Sham Idrees. Thank you
☢️ Radioactive 🎃 (
talk)
11:10, 30 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom, or move to draft if a case can be made that substantial reliable sources exist that could be added to the article. A YouTube prankster whose coverage derives from a feud with another non-notable YouTuber.
BD2412T05:20, 2 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete Sham Idrees gained popularity after having his feud with a YouTuber. I remember Sham used to be known in the YouTube community of Pakistan, all these sources of Sham are of the past, but if you talk about 2020 and 2021, Sham has become like an irrelevant person in Pakistan now, each of his video can't even get a million views, so the final thing is Sham is no more well-known in Pakistan, there won't even be a single source about Sham in 2021.
RaziNaama(talk)01:08, 7 July 2021 (UTC)reply
RaziNaama Actually Ducky Bhai gained popularity after that feud, not Sham Idrees (who was quite popular at that time), Ducky gained
100,000 subscriber in very start of feud, meanwhile sham and his fellows lost many subs. But anyway there's difference between Popularity and
Notability. Thank you.
☢️ Radioactive 🎃 (
talk)
05:11, 8 July 2021 (UTC)reply
@
RaziNaama: It doesn't matter here. You admitted that he was once popular. Even if popularity decreases if he's once known for his works, he will be still considered notable on Wikipedia. And you have joined Wikipedia 12 days ago, and it seems surprising that you are participating in AFD discussion. —
A.A Prinon Leave a dialogue14:22, 11 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom. This isn't about reliability of sources. Coverage is not in-depth. Sources are not good content-wise ("Pakistan origin popular You tubers Sham Idrees and wife Seher celebrate birth of baby girl" et cetera).
— Alalch Emis (
talk)
18:14, 16 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Seems ready for a consensus to be made after it's been in AfD for more than 5 weeks. Does not require a full 7 days of relisting before closure.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Dr. Universe (
talk)
18:59, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment: While the discussion happening here may be illuminating, if no rough consensus can be reached, the article by default will be kept. An article can't stay in AfD forever, and this one has already been discussed more than 5x longer than AfD discussions are meant to last.
Dr. Universe (
talk)
19:05, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment —
WP:NEXIST states Notability is based on the existence of suitable sources, not on the state of sourcing in an article. Google search results about Sham Idrees clearly indicate that there must be independent, reliable sources with significant coverage as there are tens of articles about him from Pakistan's mainstream media outlets like
Geo News(one of most popular Urdu news channel),
ARY News(Top most popular Urdu news channel),
Dawn.com(oldest Pakistani newspaper),
The News (Pakistan)(largest Pakistani newspaper),
The Express Tribune(National Newspaper),
Daily Ausaf,
Daily Pakistan,
Samaa TV,
Bol News and many more. Also note that large sum of popular pakistani Newspapers, TV channels are in urdu & many of Urdu newspapers don't have their websites(finding there content on internet is quite impossible). Thank you.
☢️ Radioactive 🎃 (
talk)
14:23, 22 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment a relist after a preceding relist followed by 4:0 !votes is very problematic. An administrator needs to take a careful look at this discussion, potentially remove some content (such as the relist comment and the subsequent bias-inducing and procedurally false comment by the relister), and assess viability of any further discussion after it was adulterated by the tendentious relist. See
Wikipedia:Relisting can be abusive— Alalch Emis (
talk)
17:17, 22 July 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Alalch Emis: There was a 17 (!!!) day gap between the last relist and mine. I might have closed the AfD as a "delete" if I could, but delete decisions require an admin, so I relisted. What else was supposed to be done? Just let it continue going for far beyond the usual lifetime of an AfD discussion, while being neglected by admins who are supposed to be making close decisions on the backlog of AfD discussions (especially for cases where non-admins can't close it because the decision isn't unanimous enough or the consensus is leaning towards delete)? Your uses of the words "adulterated" and "tendentious" are inappropriate here and come across far too confrontational. I relisted because this discussion has been going on for more than 5x the intended lifetime of an AfD discussion and a decision now needs to be made. This has nothing to do with "adultery" or "tendentiousness". Please just assume a bit of good faith for editors that are just trying to help the Wikipedia project by working on reducing the size of the backlog.
Dr. Universe (
talk)
20:32, 22 July 2021 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. This was a fairly complicated discussion that endeavoured to use a
test case AfD and apply to a batch.
The delete !votes were all clear-cut and well-formed, indicating that individual ceremonies were not well enough sourced (there was a marginal case over the 37th - had I come down in favour of delete, that one would have remained no-consensus) and could not inherit notability from the overarching notable nature of the awards.
The Keep !votes did not generally rebut the sourcing argument - specific instances were contested, but there wasn't a general effort to show that independent sourcing to meet NEVENT/GNG for each.
Instead the reasoning was more that as the relevant details couldn't all be included in the main article, splitting them off like this was legitimate and a fair use of PRIMARY. Various call-outs to equivalent cases was carried out by both keep and delete supporters.
In general I found the Keep policy basis less strong than that of those advocating Deletion, but not non-existent. Had it been a single article I may have just found in favour of deletion, but traditionally batch submissions need to be fairly clear-cut to demonstrate cause for deletion.
Should a general village pump discussion indicate that NOTINHERITED clearly does apply to things such as particular awards ceremonies, seasons etc, then I will overturn my close to delete. Alternatively, this close can be raised at DRV without prior discussion with myself (though if there's something unclear by all means reach out), if it is felt that it was assessed with a misapplied consideration of underlying policy
Nosebagbear (
talk)
00:27, 28 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Addendum (Apologies, edit-conflict meant I had to restart) - there was also consideration of a merge to a single list article, which while it clearly did not represent a consensus, was also not particularly opposed. A merge discussion can be held in the regular fashion.
Nosebagbear (
talk)
Following the
AfD for the 39th Young Artist Awards, I have decided to nominate the 31st through 38th editions of these awards for deletion. As with the 39th ceremony, these ceremonies lack sources. After some Google searches across these eight ceremonies, I only found three reliable secondary sources (in total, not per year) that discussed a specific ceremony (sources:
[3],
[4],
[5]). Major industry publications such as Variety (
search) and THR (
search) do not cover the individual ceremonies at all. In other words, there is very minimal, if any, coverage of these ceremonies. There are some
human-interest stories from local newspapers and news stations that focus on individuals receiving awards, but to me, these aren't notable – there are dozens, if not hundreds, of similar stories every day. Also, it seems the ceremonies have unclear voting standards and little recognition from industry professionals and studios (
source), which further weakens the case for keeping these articles.
Comment There are articles for every year stretching back to the first one, why are the yearly lists from the 31st onward not notable, but 1 through 30 are?
Donaldd23 (
talk)
11:40, 13 June 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Donaldd23: I figured it was better to discuss these articles in chunks rather than deleting all of them at once. I'm planning to list the other ceremonies at AfD once this discussion is finished – should I just include those ceremonies here? I'm not super familiar with how AfDs work, so I don't know which would be better.
RunningTiger123 (
talk)
15:54, 13 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep as the awards are notable then the results of those awards should be listed and to do so needs splitting from the parent article. Also human interest stories regarding receiving the awards are a sign of their notability. Regarding the close on the 39th Awards am considering a deletion review, imv
Atlantic306 (
talk)
00:37, 16 June 2021 (UTC)reply
To clarify why I think human-interest stories are irrelevant to notability, I'm basing this off of
WP:NEWSORG ("Human interest reporting is generally not as reliable as news reporting, and may not be subject to the same rigorous standards of fact-checking and accuracy") and
WP:ROUTINE ("Run-of-the-mill events—common, everyday, ordinary items that do not stand out—are probably not notable. This is especially true of the brief, often light and amusing (for example bear-in-a-tree or local-person-wins-award), stories that frequently appear in the back pages of newspapers or near the end of nightly news broadcasts", emphasis mine). And again, I'll cite
WP:INHERITED to note why the existence of the page
Young Artist Award does not justify this: "In addition, notability of a parent entity or topic (of a parent-child 'tree') does not always imply the notability of the subordinate entities."
RunningTiger123 (
talk)
02:36, 16 June 2021 (UTC)reply
WP:NEWSORG opines that human interest stories may be less reliable than news stories but that does not mean that they are unreliable or should be discounted while
WP:ROUTINE is for run of the mill announcements which I would suggest does not cover an annual, national level award from an awards ceremony that you describe as notable. The details of the awards cannot be subtracted from the notability of the awards in my view, so these essentially split articles should be kept, in my view,
Atlantic306 (
talk)
So are you suggesting that human-interest stories alone prove notability? That is a pretty low bar for inclusion on Wikipedia. There is rarely a guideline that exactly corresponds to a given situation, so I was aiming to show with these guidelines that human-interest stories do not appear to be a good indicator of notability.
WP:GNG states that notability is established by "significant coverage in reliable sources";
WP:NEWSORG indicates the sources are not particularly reliable, and
WP:ROUTINE indicates the coverage is not significant; hence, I think it's fair to say that human-interest stories fail to establish notability on their own.
RunningTiger123 (
talk)
02:30, 18 June 2021 (UTC)reply
My main point is that as the awards are notable as you confirm then the results of those awards are necessary and important information that the reader would expect to see and that there is no valid reason at all for deletion. I will do a source-search tomorrow, imv
Atlantic306 (
talk)
00:08, 24 June 2021 (UTC)reply
I guess the disconnect we're having is that we have different perceptions of "necessary and important information". Here's my perspective on it:
I work on a lot of TV articles. For a TV show that has met the notability guidelines, it is generally acceptable to include a list of episodes (or, if the list of episodes would be too long to fit in the main page, a stand-alone list for the episodes). Listing the individual episodes, even if they don't have sources specifically about them, is okay. However, taking the step to create stand-alone articles for individual episodes requires that the episodes have their own coverage. In rare cases, I think it would be okay to allow a few episodes to slip in without significant coverage simply to complete the set, but only if the vast majority of the other episodes in the series have significant coverage.
Using this analogy here, I would argue that
list of ceremony dates, locations, etc. in the main article is the same as the list of episodes in a TV series article. The ceremonies may not be individually notable, but it's worthwhile context. Creating year-by-year articles is akin to creating individual episode articles; at that point, the ceremonies require significant, independent coverage, which I have not seen.
RunningTiger123 (
talk)
00:27, 24 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep To delete the results of an award that is judged notable is against the best interests of Wikipedia. Are the articles for yearly Academy Awards, Emmys, Golden Globes, etc not notable either? Surely we agree that the Academy Awards are notable, but is, say, the
13th Academy Awards notable on its own? If we all agree an award is notable, then the ceremonies/winners are also notable and since that information cannot feasibly fit on the parent page that covers the awards as a whole, we have individual pages for each award. The Young Artist Award is no different. And, I agree with
Atlantic306 that the 39th ceremony that was deleted should have a deletion review.
Donaldd23 (
talk)
21:30, 16 June 2021 (UTC)reply
The difference is those ceremonies have sources written specifically about them. To use your example of the 13th Academy Awards, I found
a New York Times article,
a Variety article, and
an article from the FDR Presidential Library, to name a few. (Some of those are behind paywalls, but they are still legitimate sources.) I have yet to see comparable coverage of the individual ceremonies for the Young Artist Awards. To me, saying that the mere existence of an award justifies an article about every ceremony is comparable to saying that the presence of a notable sports team means every one of the team's seasons deserves an article, or the existence of a TV show justifies an article about every episode. There are teams that are notable enough for season-by-season coverage, and shows that justify episode-by-episode articles, but that is because there are secondary sources specifically about those topics, not just because the parent topic is notable. Likewise, there are awards that deserve articles for individual ceremonies, and there are those that do not. To me, this clearly falls in the latter category.
RunningTiger123 (
talk)
00:47, 17 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Just to be clear, the first two sources refer to the same year but the remaining sources refer to different years. And the LA Times article is more about the awards as a whole; the references to the 37th ceremony are just because that's when the article was written.
RunningTiger123 (
talk)
18:26, 26 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete per closing comment in
AfD for the 39th Young Artist Awards: I'm not convinced by the arguments presented by the !keeps. Perhaps a redireect is warrant. I'm deleting per nom and per
WP:INDISCRIMINATE. I don't agree that if the reward is notable, each of the yearly ceremonies is also notable. There is an infinite number of instances on Wikipedia that members of a set are not notable while the set is notable. It may absolutely be so that the award is notable in a historical frame of reference, as a whole, but that each of it's yearly ceremonies is fairly unremarkable and very weakly covered. Arguing to the opposite runs into
WP:NOTINHERITED.
— Alalch Emis (
talk)
17:08, 7 July 2021 (UTC)reply
"I'm not convinced by the arguments presented by the !keeps. Perhaps a redireect is warrant. I'm deleting per nom and per
WP:INDISCRIMINATE" I'm not convinced by the arguments in the closing comment. I don't find the article to satisfy any of the four WP:INDISCRIMINATE items(Lyrics databases). The closing comment did not particularly analyse the arguments for keeping, it refers to the nom. I did not quite understand the "I find it especially problematic to include non-notable information when it discusses minors, as this does." argument and why is the information about awards and nominations of the artist non-notable, considering that there are sources on artists' awards and wins.
Kirill C1 (
talk)
08:22, 17 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete I just went through the main article and found many dead links. Nonetheless, the awards may be just barely notable, but I like the argument above that the individual ceremonies, having almost zero coverage, do not warrant standalone articles. The list of ceremonies in the main article seems to be a good compromise.
TimTempleton(talk)(cont)19:54, 16 July 2021 (UTC)reply
"The list of ceremonies in the main article seems to be a good compromise." It is not a copromise, it's a wipe-out of nominations. If the individual ceremonies are deleted, then the info about nominations and awards should be transferred to the main article. Which then would make it large enough for it to be separated into other articles. I view many articles as a technical and trivial thing of dividing article.
Kirill C1 (
talk)
08:21, 17 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Why would the list of nominations have to be moved to the main article? If it's not notable information, it shouldn't be included. That's the entire point of having a deletion discussion – to figure out if information should or should not be included.
RunningTiger123 (
talk)
15:23, 17 July 2021 (UTC)reply
"If it's not notable information, it shouldn't be included" - but I mentioned the examples of this information cited in sources. Which supports notion that it is notable information. If Jaden Smith's nominations mentioned include these Awards, that would indicate it is notable information.
Kirill C1 (
talk)
16:06, 17 July 2021 (UTC)reply
The problem that I see is that you're taking one piece of notable information (from an unreliable source, assuming you're discussing the Republic TV article from below) and using it to justify an entire article's worth of non-notable information. I would argue that Smith's award could merit recognition on a page about Smith, especially since the Young Artist Awards website might serve as a secondary source in that context, but that does not mean it can support an entire article about everyone else at that ceremony by itself. Consider this analogy: there was
a notable winter storm that affected Texas this year, but that doesn't mean we should start creating an article for
Weather in Texas in 2021 – the existence of a single notable element does not inherently justify a wider-ranging overview of the topic.
RunningTiger123 (
talk)
16:31, 17 July 2021 (UTC)reply
"one piece of notable information" - it is not just one piece, there are at least several sources on actors receiving awards and nominations in a single year, not just Smith. That is why I think it is important to have such nominations in an article, if not the article specifically about the ceremony, then in the main article, about all ceremonies - but then the article would be too big.
Kirill C1 (
talk)
16:39, 17 July 2021 (UTC)reply
You are correct; my choice of words here was poor and "notable" has a specific meaning on Wikipedia that doesn't match what I was talking about.
WP:PRIMARY better summarizes what I was trying to say.
RunningTiger123 (
talk)
02:30, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Once again, you are proposing using trivial mentions in non-reliable sources as the sole basis for an entire article about the topic, which would still include many nominees that are otherwise non-notable. This is not how
WP:GNG works, at least in my interpretation.
RunningTiger123 (
talk)
16:51, 17 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep. I do not think that nominating almost 10 ceremonies at once after one single closer where the main argument is "I'm not convinced by the arguments presented by the !keeps", while there were two detailed keep votes and one delete with usual "Not enough WP:GNG to warrant an article" is a good thing - how are we supposed to find sources on so many awards quickly enough? There are many mentions of the Awards received in articles about actors, or their body of work, which indicate that it is a notable fact, and considering that these are different actors
[6],
[7],
[8], it indicates that award and specifically ceremony are notable. The article mentions Kids Choice awards and MTV awards right with Young Artist awards, it means it is on par with those two awards.
Kirill C1 (
talk)
08:21, 17 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Two of those sources are from the Daily Express and Republic TV, which are both considered generally unreliable per
WP:RSP and therefore irrelevant to establishing notability. The third is from TVOvermind, which, if I had to guess, would also be deemed questionable at best. Moreover, those sources include only passing mentions of the awards. Per WP:GNG: "Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention." These are articles about people who happened to win at an awards ceremony, not the awards ceremony itself. In my opinion, a notable awards ceremony will have articles specifically about it – consider the four sources for the
37th TCA Awards article that I recently created, which all directly discuss the topic.
RunningTiger123 (
talk)
15:06, 17 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Could you provide the links? For the LA Times, I assume you're discussing
this article mentioned earlier by Atlantic306, which, as I noted then, only discusses the 37th ceremony because that's when the article happened to be written. There is no mention of the various categories or much of the other information included in the article; the mentions of the ceremony are only there as a springboard to discuss the wider issues with the awards as a whole.
RunningTiger123 (
talk)
16:40, 17 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: I suggest for this to be the last re-list. Please come to consensus or allow a keep due to no consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Dr. Universe (
talk)
18:55, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep. Given the award itself is considered notable, this and the other yearly articles ought to be considered under the notability for the main award. As the award is notable, I think it's fair to also list its winners and evidently, there is too much content here for a single article. Hence, the separate yearly articles.
NemesisAT (
talk)
20:00, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
WP:NOTINHERITED makes it clear that the notability of a parent topic does not make subtopics automatically notable. Moreover, the notion that the list of winners would be covered in the main article were there not so many years to cover is deeply flawed. Such a large section reliant entirely on primary sources is explicitly what
WP:PRIMARY warns against.
RunningTiger123 (
talk)
22:47, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Using primary sources for lists of winners falls into the reasonable usage of primary sources described at WP:PRIMARY in my opinion, I disagree that the idea is flawed. Would you support a merge of this content into the main article?
NemesisAT (
talk)
22:52, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
I do not think a merge is justifiable. WP:PRIMARY policy #5 states: "Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them." If the articles for each ceremony remain, they will fail the first statement, as the vast majority (if not the entirety) of these articles would be based on primary sources. If the articles are merged into
Young Artist Awards, they will form a massive section that dominates the article and still relies solely on primary sources, failing the second statement.
I see it this way: The list of ceremonies, while mostly reliant on primary sources, is okay for inclusion in the Young Artist Awards article because it's only one step down (overall awards → individual ceremonies), making it fairly relevant to an overview of the topic, and doesn't dominate the existing article. However, the lists of winners and nominees is too far because it's two steps down (overall awards → individual ceremonies → individual winners/nominees) and would end up flooding the article with primary information. Does that make sense?
RunningTiger123 (
talk)
01:11, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment The relisting comment is insufficiently neutral; it is also procedurally unsound because a no consensus finding is a no consensus finding not "keep". The relist is uncalled for after a 3 vs. 1 ratio since the preceding relist (all of the !votes probably having normal weight). An administrator needs to assess the viability of further discussion since the last relist. @
Sandstein: I think a correction of course is in order (such as removal of the relist comment).
— Alalch Emis (
talk)
16:44, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Alalch Emis: I've struck out the part you're referring to. I had no intention to be "insufficiently neutral". I'm completely independent of this topic. I thought "no consensus" and "keep" are the same, but after writing that comment, I have indeed seen some AfD discussions ending in "no consensus" rather than "keep", it's just that the article ends up getting kept in those "no consensus" cases, but I do appreciate that the effect is different, so I've struck out the comment. I very much encourage you not to attack me though, here or in the other AfD entry you mentioned. Please assume good faith.
Dr. Universe (
talk)
20:17, 22 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge all the listy stuff to
List of Young Artist Awards winners (or whatever). (If there were any encyclopedic content in any of these articles, it could be merged to
Young Artist Awards, but it doesn't look to me like there is.) There is something here, but putting it into 40 different articles spreads it too thin. For example, I agree with RunningTiger123 that the LA Times article represents significant coverage of the awards generally, but really the 37th edition specifically is just incidental to the story (because it happens to have been written then), and it is a dis-service to both readers and maintainers to have whatever other little bits of content there are like that spread out over many articles and duplicated with the main article. The tables of winners are too much to jam into the main article, but would make a perfectly adequate list article. --
JBL (
talk)
22:10, 27 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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Not really seeing enough for
WP:GNG at the moment. I can't really find anything better than the sources already provided, which are just stats databases and her club's own website. I found
this in MyFootball but it's only a trivial squad list mention. She does also have profiles on
GSA and
Soccerway but these don't establish notability.
Spiderone(Talk to Spider)18:02, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment If the subject was playing in a male league, with multiple appearances for a team in the top national league . . . . but the WP.NG.FOOTBALL . . . .
Aoziwe (
talk)
05:24, 27 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Even if playing in the W-League did carry a presumption of notability, Offer currently has zero appearances in the top national league so this wouldn't be a valid reason for keeping. Even male footballers playing in the top national league are required to pass
WP:GNG as is clearly stated at the top of
WP:NFOOTBALL in the Q&A section; specifically Q1 and Q2
Spiderone(Talk to Spider)11:13, 27 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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Keep for artists it is important to check for permanent collections before nominating, since
WP:ARTIST says an artist is likely notable if they are in several notable museum or gallery collections. And he is in at least two, which I have added to the article. There's additional coverage in various sources to make clear that he meets WP:ARTIST. ---
Possibly☎18:46, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep - Thom Merrick is internationally known (since the early 1990s). He is indeed notable. The article needs improvement, but that is not a reason for deletion. Meets
WP:NARTIST #1 and #4 criteria. (And that disarticulated motorcycle installation is stellar).
[9]Netherzone (
talk)
19:05, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
KeepNo indication of notability, and yet the article, when it was AfD'd, listed a number of catalogues, the first "Documenta 9", Kassel, Edition Cantz, 1992. If inclusion in the
Documenta, one of the "major art world events", is not an indication of notability, then very little else is.
Vexations (
talk)
14:05, 25 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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@
Hyperbolick, yes, it was #15 on Billboard US Top Comedy Albums the week of April 9, 2010. Is that sufficient, even with no other support? If it is, happy to withdraw, but...really? :D
—valereee (
talk)
18:44, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
It's not. This is a great illustration of the requirement for multiple independent reliable sauces. Even if we allow that being on the chart means the album is "important" (or whatever), without sources there's nothing to base an article on.
EEng23:12, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Redirect to
Richard Cheese. Charting alone is not enough to justify an album having an independent article. It should have significant coverage from third-party, reliable sources and I am not seeing that here. I would recommend a redirect over a deletion as this is a viable search term and I would imagine that it would be more help for readers that way.
Aoba47 (
talk)
03:46, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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Keep A lazy fail to do research prior to nomination. See
WP:BEFORE, "If there are verifiability, notability or other sourcing concerns, take reasonable steps to search for reliable sources." A quick search for "The Messenger Lily Cole" finds reviews in reliable sources, and I have added two.
Edwardx (
talk)
17:42, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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This entire article is sourced completely to a Billboard chart history. Not finding anything else on Google, news, newspapers. I think the band is notable, but probably not this album.
—valereee (
talk)
17:09, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
DeleteRedirect to
Richard Cheese#Discography. Fails
WP:NALBUM, although reaching #9 on the Billboard's Comedy chart, nobody appears to have even written about the album. Google news search leads to one (1) page, a click-bait article in Portuguese on "10 covers that prove Nirvana's songs are good in any style". Otherwise, not "enough material to warrant a reasonably detailed article": no award nominations, no sales certifications, and nothing to say about the album except to list the tracks, on top of which we say, "This album is composed primarily of songs that were on other Richard Cheese and Lounge Against the Machine albums." —
JohnFromPinckney (
talk /
edits)19:37, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Redirect to
Richard Cheese#Discography. I do not see evidence of significant coverage from third-party, reliable sources, but I think a redirect would be more beneficial to readers than an outright deletion as this is a viable search term and a viable target article exists.
Aoba47 (
talk)
16:23, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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An article about a pornography company sourced only to the company website. I looked for additional references and found nothing to satisfy
WP:NCORP. (XBIZ and AVN do have some routine coverage of product announcements, business partnerships, and the like -- note that these end with the company sales manager's contact information, a likely sign of PR.) Cheers,
gnu5717:02, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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A season article about a fourth-tier Italian club (non fully-pro). Barely sourced, doesn't really merit an article of its own.
Nehme149915:59, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete - seems totally unnecessary when the parent article is barely more than a stub. Below the level that typically gets enough significant coverage to build a meaningful season article.
Spiderone(Talk to Spider)16:33, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep It has taken me all day yesterday to create and I am trying very hard! Not exactly sure as to why it's not notable ... the club are playing in
Serie D =
League Two in
England (so they're playing "League football", not "non-League"). Also, you have to understand it is difficult to provide reliable sources for a club that has only been in existence since 2020, especially when I have to source information from websites such as
Transfermarkt (which
User:Sir Sputnik doesn't want anyone to use as a source for verification because they consider it "unreliable"). Another two sources I have used are TuttoCalciatori and TuttoCampo. I would try and source more information from the club's official website, however it is still "a work in progress", meaning not everything is available on there. Matese lost in the play-offs and had they played in the final and won, they would have been playing
Serie C football for the 2021/22 season. Look, the reason I have placed templates like Empty section / Expand section is because even though I have seen photographs of the kit online ... I don't know what to class their coulours as (for example, the shirt and shorts are green but appear as different shades according to different photographs). Therefore I am not sure what colour coding I should add (hence why I haven't added the home & kit template to the article). The socks are sort of a lighter shade of green, perhaps a kind of yellow (F.C. Matese's nickname) according to TuttoCampo is "Verde Oro", see link at
Tuttocampo "Green Gold", see this link for the kit (shirt) at
Tuttocampo. -
ST MADG*85talk)
17:52, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
@
ST MADG*85: Please read
WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Just because Matese exists, and have almost reached the Serie C, doesn't mean we need to have an article on each of its seasons. Even you admit that it's "difficult to provide reliable sources", and that you have had to resort to unreliable sources such as Transfermarkt. Also, per
Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues, the Serie D isn't exactly the same as League Two. Serie D is the first semi-pro league in Italy, while League Two is still fully-pro.
Nehme149917:36, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Okay, fair enough! I created the article because the club were only established in 2020, therefore if at some point they end up playing higher up in the Italian football pyramid, (becoming notable), we'd already have at least their first season recorded. As for the other matter, what do you suggest I do about the colour coding (Kit template) ... I mean, what shade of green would you say their kit is and what is the secondary colour for their home kit (the socks)? Based on this link on the club's official website
[10], the socks appear to be a luminous green / yellow, yet in another photo, they are the same colour as the home kit's shirt and shorts. Here's a link to an away match in which they wore their home colours, notice they're wearing the luminous socks
[11] Maybe, the luminous colour is an alternate colour they use. They seem to play in a white / green away kit. Again, what colour green would you say they use for their away kit, if it is at all different? Looking at this link on their official YouTube channel
YouTube, you can see they're wearing their third kit, even though they are playing in their home stadium.
ST MADG*85 (
talk)
18:11, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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Does not meet
WP:GNG. There are some trivial mentions from various radio stations, but even those appear to be affiliated with or published by NPR so I would question whether they are independent.
TipsyElephant (
talk)
15:10, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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I can't find any
WP:GNG-level coverage of him and
itsrugby and
Ultimate Rugby only list activity at youth level so
WP:NRU doesn't appear to be met either. The Racing appearances in the infobox, if they are correct at all, are likely to be in references to academy appearances rather than senior as I can't find anything to support an appearance for Racing.
Spiderone(Talk to Spider)13:25, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete Per nom, no notable professional or international appearances, and am not seeing anything in a search to suggest a GNG pass either.
Rugbyfan22 (
talk)
14:41, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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Subject does not appear to meet
WP:PROF or the
WP:GNG. The references in the article are either passing mentions or non-independent sources and I can't find any more substantial coverage. –
Joe (
talk)
08:44, 8 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Quick observation: the ScienceDaily and Phys.org items are press releases, and the Daily Mail is
deprecated. I wasn't able to check the Economist and Telegraph stories from my current computer, but all of the other items are passing mentions (and possibly not independent —
churning press releases seems likely).
XOR'easter (
talk)
14:21, 10 July 2021 (UTC)reply
I've now been able to check the Economist and Telegraph stories as well, and they are also brief, passing mentions. As
WP:PROF says, being quoted occasionally is part of an academic's job. If there's a notability case to be made, it's not through the news.
XOR'easter (
talk)
17:24, 10 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Weak keep. While I don't buy GNG or
WP:NPROF C7, I do see plenty of journal articles with 100s of citations (including first/last-authored in a field where that matters) in what I believe to be a lower citation field. I think it's enough for
WP:NPROF C1.
Russ Woodroofe (
talk)
11:13, 12 July 2021 (UTC)reply
None of these are valid arguments, practically every single published researcher can be found in google scholar, scopus, and jstor, none of which are evidence of notability.
Reywas92Talk19:36, 16 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Shortland is first author on only four of those. And the rule of thumb I've always heard is ten papers with >100 citations (or one with >1000) passes C1. Though never understand how, in practice, such an arbitrary standard is supposed to translate into the ability to write an article that doesn't rely completely on affiliated sources. Or how one would do that from a collection of short quotes in newspapers, for that matter. –
Joe (
talk)
11:36, 13 July 2021 (UTC)reply
In example, in theology and church history, people do not have the same citation count as in fields like biology, because the density of publication in the field is so much lower -there are many fewer than 1% as many journals and papers, and correspondingly few opportunities for even the most notable person to be cited.
Jairon Levid Abimael Caál Orozco (
talk)
03:25, 14 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Notability always comes down to the ability to write an article that conforms to our core content policies. That's
what notability means and that's what the "N" in NPROF stands for. I have no problem with heuristics like this, but they're not actually inWP:NPROF and, given how subjective they are (archaeological science might be a "low citation field" compared to physics, but it's a "high citation" field compared to theology), ultimately there has to be the ability to substantiate a presumption of notability with actual sources to write an actual article.
By the way, the PI-as-final-author convention is not always followed in archaeology. The paper on the radiocarbon chronology of Egypt, for example, was part of
project directed by
Christopher Bronk Ramsey, the head of the Oxford radiocarbon lab, where Shortland had previously been a PhD student and research fellow. Again, our presumptions about significance are not worth as much as sources. –
Joe (
talk)
19:00, 14 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Hmm interesting, you are correct in the Science article indeed the first author is the corresponding author. I agree that here the source situation is not great, since independent sources are mostly missing, even if notability is established. However within
WP:NPROF there is an agreement that non-independent faculty pages
such as this (see General Notes) can be used to write the article, so that should hopefully provide at least a useful stub. Regarding his impact on the field, it seems you are much more qualified to judge this than I am and feel free to advance an argument based on that; but "lack of sources" is not the main issue here. --
hroest15:59, 15 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Strong keep as creator per previous comments and above comments on citations showing significant impact in field of research , especially 9 papers with > 100 citations is impressive ... Shortland is *last author* on some of these articles, which is arguably as relevant (lead PI), meaning he was the head of the lab and directed the research eg for
1 and
2 by hroest.
Sputnik12 (
talk)
18:44, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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The alleged Aurillac appearances were likely at academy level as there is no evidence of them at
itsrugby nor anywhere else as far as I can see. With no evidence of
WP:NRU being met and nothing in terms of
WP:GNG in searches, it doesn't look like Kvachadze meets our notability standards for rugby players.
Spiderone(Talk to Spider)13:14, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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not separately notable. The article doesn't make it clear, but the firm is still in existence a/c Companies House. I have not found any 3rd party references that meet WP:NCORP. If they do exist, then a merge with the various services it provides might be a reasonable solution, so I' not nominating the separate aticles on them at this times. DGG (
talk )
17:08, 12 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete There isn't enough sourcing available for this to be notable and IMO the name of the organization is to general to warrant a redirect. It's not like it can't just be mentioned in the other article without a redirect either. So I don't know what other viable option there would be besides deleting the article. --
Adamant1 (
talk)
10:03, 22 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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Delete - A run-of-the-mill club no more special than any of the other thousands of golf clubs and courses in the world.
Tony Lema died when the plane he was in, crashed on the course, but that doesn't make the course itself notable.
Nigej (
talk)
07:29, 18 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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Redirect to the relevant sections of the main article. Plausible search terms, and it's not impossible that some or all could be expanded to include material other than results (squads, notable events, etc). There is no reason or benefit to removing the edit history so deletion is uncalled for.
Thryduulf (
talk)
12:01, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
"Suriname national football team in 2016" is perhaps a plausible search term but I'm not sure that "Suriname national football team 2016" works as a redirect as it doesn't use correct English.
Spiderone(Talk to Spider)12:24, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Redirect all per above; editorially no justification for spreading match results across so many pages. I agree with Thryduulf that we can have redirects with "in" as well as without "in", if people want it.
User:力 (power~enwiki,
π,
ν)
18:53, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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Speedy delete: Assuming this is about rumours on CM Amarinder Singh and Navjot Singh Sidhu (not that it matters), likely qualifies for
WP:A11. -
hako9 (
talk)
22:31, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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This is part of a series of deleted items for a technology series hosted by the creatimg editor. It appears to be a list of episides, Podcasts. Fails
WP:GNG. No point in draftification, Creating editor (COI) moved it to main space.
FiddleTimtrentFaddleTalk to me09:01, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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Comment She's a very prolific light novel writer. So far she has published around 30 books (in Greek) in two of the biggest and more reputable Greek publishing houses (Livanis, and Psychogios). She also makes controvertial commnets on several subjects in the social media and/or when interviewed, and bc of that she is usually heavily criticised (but gets more attention at the same time). Check for coverage on her from the Greek media by using her name in Greek
Δημουλίδου. ǁǁǁ ǁ
Chalk19 (
talk)
20:26, 6 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep The Greek wikipedia article includes a range of sources. Many of them are not great (GoodReads, the publisher's webpage, a blogspot blog), but they include articles in national newspapers: Kathimerini and Eleftherotipia, and entries on the National Book Centre of Greece, which seem sufficient to establish notability. Here Greek-language profile on her publisher's website (
https://www.psichogios.gr/el/xryshida-dhmoylidoy) says that one of her books won the first prize of the "Reading Association in Cyprus" and others have won awards from
Olympic Air (I'm not sure whether ither of these prizes are a big deal...)
Furius (
talk)
00:54, 8 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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Oppose/Keep I am the article author. Edits have been made to link this article to other Wikipedia articles that include publications and research done by the museum (
Edith Renfrow Smith and
Cornelia Clarke). Citation has also been added to the Grinnell Historical Museum collection in the Drake Community Library Archives.
Grincitygal (
talk)
15:34, 14 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep We should encourage such
GLAM activity and institutions rather than persecuting them. It seems easy to find coverage in sources such as the Iowa Journal of History and Iowa Off the Beaten Path and so it seems apparent that
WP:BEFORE has not been done and policies such as
WP:ATD and
WP:NEXIST considered.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
13:09, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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Delete - I was unable to find any reliable sources mentioning her at all, except for the non-independent release from her
employer. The Emmy her news-team won could make her notable, but I couldn't find any discussion of what the Emmy was or her role in it.
Suriname0 (
talk)
17:08, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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The result was procedural close. The majority of comments below address the procedural issues with this debate, although I acknowledge a couple do address SIGCOV etc. Closing as procedural close, so as to not prejudice a future nomination at a more suitable time. Further, potential merge/etc can be dealt with at
Wikipedia:Proposed article mergers or other talk page discussions.
Daniel (
talk)
23:49, 27 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Speedy Keep The
Meghan AfD has not been closed, does not seem to have a consensus, and so it's too soon to be rushing to start more like it. Merger into a draft is problematic because the draft has yet to be accepted and, in any case, would not be done by deletion. Please
calm down and slow down.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
08:34, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Changed to speedy keep per other participants. The result of an improperly closed discussion isn't a valid reason for deleting another article.
NemesisAT (
talk)
23:19, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment: Quoting users from Meghan AfD: "Coverage is also there for other royal dresses, but we can't have articles on all of them on Wikipedia. Every dress royals wear gets reported in the media. The
Travolta dress and the
Revenge dress got critical commentary regarding their public impact or the political statement made by the style, timing etc e.g. the revenge dress. This dress has none of that. Also, should articles be made about, for instance, the dress Meghan wore to the Lion King premiere in 2018,[1][2][3][4][5][6] the dress Princess Anne wore to
Royal Ascot in 2015,[7][8][9][10][11][12] or the dress Catherine wore to Wimbledon a week ago?"[13][14][15][16][17]
Speedy keep. With the topic article drafts being developed, there’s no reason this couldn’t have waited for a merge proposal instead of rushing to AfD. I echo Andrew’s advice to slow down here.
Innisfree987 (
talk)
16:35, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Speedy keep Well, this is not a normal dress that she would wear randomly on an outing. It is in the same category as her wedding dress, something that she would only wear once in her lifetime. And as other users pointed out, sustained and continuous coverage is the reason for the subject's notability. I'd suggest keeping the article at this point. A potential merge could be discussed once the draft on her fashion is finally done. Keivan.fTalk18:02, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Judge each article on its own sources, if someone is happy to write an article on those topics and can find adequate sourcing to pass
WP:GNG, I say go ahead.
NemesisAT (
talk)
18:05, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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It seems to be a disambiguation page as similar page i.e a list article exist titled
Kunwar, which contains name of people with Kunwar surname. It should be deleted and few names present here should be included in that particular article.
Heba Aisha (
talk)
00:26, 6 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment Kunwar (title) of Rajput tribes being used IN FRONT of people's names has far too long a history in the Indian subcontinent – India, Pakistan and Nepal, to be Deleted because it's still widely used in Pakistan, India and Nepal by people. I fully realize Wikipedia guidelines discourage it from being used in its Article Titles, but I see 'titles' such as Emperor, King, Lord, Sir, Chaudhry, Raja, Khan used all the time in the Wikipedia Infoboxes. As long as name titles are being used in the Real World out there by the people themselves, it would be unrealistic for Wikipedia to impose a total ban on the use of name titles on this encyclopedia. Does Encyclopedia Britannica call a King, a King in the main body of its articles? Kunwar (title) and Kunwar (surname) exist as separate Wikipedia articles for a very good reason.
Ngrewal1 (
talk)
21:02, 6 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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Comment: This is a new user and 14 minutes after the page was created you nominated it for deletion? What happened to don't bite the newcomers? --
Whiteguru (
talk)
08:21, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Whiteguru, the article creator is not a new user: they have been on WP since 2014 but their prior articles (on associated companies such as Microflick Software Corporation and Brainsapp) have been deleted. See
User talk:Jithinrajiv (which also includes COI notices in both 2014 and 2017).
AllyD (
talk)
09:09, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Excutient: COI is not relevant in my mind to this AfD, as this software application simply does not pass any notability standard and this is the main thing to evaluate here. If this was an article on a company (and not an app), I would've A7ed it. However, if you were to compare the user name of the creator and the founder of the company that created the application then the COI is evident.--Eostrix (
🦉 hoothoot🦉)11:03, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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CEO of non-notable company. Virtually no coverage from third party sources. Speaking engagements and blog posts do not count towards WP:GNG.
KH-1 (
talk)
04:12, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete: This article is basically an advertisement for this person. There are insufficient references and a poorly written article. --
Whiteguru (
talk)
08:42, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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Non notable future film, fails
WP:NFF as production wasn't notable. Having a teaser trailer released does not establish notability. Should be moved back to draft until release, or outright deleted.
PROD removed by article creator. Message left on my talk page was "
Kanakan kaamini kalaham is a notable film in South India which has a lead like great actor Nivin Pauly. I don't know why you proposed for a deletion. Please undo it."
Comment. It should also be noted that the article was moved from mainspace to draft earlier in the day and the creator was notified that the article was not yet suitable for mainspace. It was moved back anyway. See: [
[12]].
Donaldd23 (
talk)
03:29, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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Notability is not given due to title or family as per
WP:BIOFAMILY. Current sources are not really RS and simply list Gibbs as a hereditary peer with his title etc. I cannot seem to find any other sources discussing Gibbs bar a small entry in a trade journal (Contify Energy News) regarding his appointment as CFO of an oil and gas company. This hardly confers notability. In the
previous AfD discussion for this page a keep decision was reached due to Gibbs' time in the House of Lords, as per
WP:POLITICIAN. However Gibbs was in the House of Lords for just 3 years (24 July 1986 - 11 November 1999) in which time he
attended parliament just 12 times and
never voted. That is certainly not a notable political career. As far as my research can tell, he has never been written about in a political context. I cannot imagine a person with a similar record and coverage from another country being deemed notable.
Vladimir.copic (
talk)
03:21, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Withdrawn by nominator as my esteemed colleagues below have correctly identified that my issue is with the negligently low standards of
WP:POLITICIAN. In the context of House of Lords peers this seems quite ridiculous as often Lords inherited their political seat and many times never even voted or engaged in politics let alone do anything else notable. I’m sure having Wikipedia pages nicely sures up their reputation though.
Vladimir.copic (
talk)
13:20, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep – as reflected in
WP:NPOL, there's longstanding consensus that national-level legislators are de facto notable. And that guideline was applied less than two months ago with regard to this very article, resulting in a clear keep consensus. Renominating so quickly after a firm keep vote
is generally discouraged, particularly when nothing has changed. The nominator's objection seems to have less to do with this article and more with NPOL itself. But unless and until NPOL is changed, I'll continue to support keeping this article so "that our coverage of major political offices, incorporating all of the present and past holders of that office, will be complete regardless" of the perceived sourcing issues.
Extraordinary Writ (
talk)
03:24, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep. Clearly notable per
WP:POLITICIAN as a member of a national legislature. This even covers members of rubber-stamping legislatures in totalitarian countries, so it clearly covers the House of Lords. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
12:07, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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Article about a film, not
reliably sourced as having any strong claim to passing
WP:NFILM. As always, films are not automatically deemed "inherently" notable just because it's technically possible to verify that they exist -- the notability test hinges on evidence of distinction, such as notable film awards or reviews from established film critics in real media (i.e. not the
user-generated comments in IMDb or an IMDb clone.) But the references here are Amazon, Letterboxd and other IMDB-like film directories, which are not notability-supporting sources, and even on a
WP:BEFORE search for stronger sources, about all I can find is
this, which is a start but not in and of itself enough if it's the only real source on the table.
Bearcat (
talk)
03:12, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
I can't find any indication that CineMagazine is a
reliable source for the purposes of building the notability of a film; it looks for all the world like a
blog, and I can't find any indication whatsoever that it's actually a real or reliable magazine. It's not "everything is assumed to be a reliable source until proven otherwise"; the burden of proof lays on showing that it is a reliable source before it can be used, not vice versa.
Bearcat (
talk)
18:38, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
CineMagazine is an independent source with editorial oversight and a quick search of past AfDs will show it is used in many discussions to satisfy notability requirements. Not sure if an actual discussion on it has ever taken place, you are free to start one, but until then you can check their about page, which shows independent critics and an editor [
[14]]. It is a Dutch website, and just because it uses the word 'magazine' does not necessarily mean that there is an actual print edition. It is not a blog. It appears to pass
WP:SOURCE, which stats "Base articles on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Source material must have been published, the definition of which for our purposes is "made available to the public in some form"." Which Cinemagazine appears to pass as it has been used in dozens of discussions.
Donaldd23 (
talk)
22:00, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
It may be also noted that a film's standing is likewise capable of being judged on the basis of the cast and crew's credits. In the case at hand, the director, editor and nine cast member all have Wikipedia entries. —
Roman Spinner(talk •
contribs)00:33, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete. CineMagazine may be usable, but it's not the strongest source and not one that would stand on its own as far as keeping an article goes. I tried sifting through the newspaper archives, but could find little for this other than TV listings of it being shown, which is fairly typical for any type of film. At best the other sources are routine database listings, which cannot establish notability. They can show that the film exists, but existing isn't notability. Nor is notability
inherited by the notability of a notable cast or crew. It may make it more likely that there will be coverage, but it's not a guarantee. This just looks to be a film that, despite having known actors in it, just sailed under the radar. This is kind of the norm for direct to video and made for TV films, to be honest. (Can't tell which it is, just that it's one or the other.)
ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79)
(。◕‿◕。)12:46, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment. Agreed. I wasn't arguing for keep with the CineMagazine review, just stating that I found it. The article would need more than just the one review to be kept. Thanks.
DonaldD23talk to me14:53, 21 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete for lack of reliable sources. I don't think this article meets the significant coverage requirement, as ReaderofthePack notes above.
Edittac (
talk)
20:51, 26 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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An article on a very general topic indeed, but which essentially just the uncritical recapitulation of the very general views of a notable writer on organization theory-- his works are hte only substantial references. I considered whether they might be merged into the article on Mintzberg, but I doubt they are in any sense his distinctive ideas. DGG (
talk )
02:30, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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Comment. This article was created and developed by its
principal, who is a blocked sockpuppeteer at nlwiki.
[15][16] Nlwiki has twice deleted its equivalent.
[17]. A nomination of the principal was initiated by another user. If WH survives this nomination, Flanor can be redirected there.
gidonb (
talk)
03:54, 17 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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Does not meet
WP:GNG. The previous deletion discussion ended in keep because some editors claimed that lots of blogs mention the podcast, which does absolutely nothing to establish notability. After doing some google searches I found that Kiki Sanford has written for sciencemag.org so any sources from that magazine are not independent. I came across a few trivial mentions in various sources and I wouldn't be surprised if Kiki is notable, but the podcast does not
WP:INHERIT her notability. I found a single source that has slightly more than a trivial mention, but it's still less than 100 words of content (
source I found).
TipsyElephant (
talk)
01:23, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge and condense (or redirect) to Kiki Sanford. The keep arguments in the previous AFD provided assertions but no actual evidence of notability, basically a combination of
WP:ILIKEIT,
WP:ITEXISTS and
WP:ASSERTN. I am not finding any evidence of
WP:WEBCRIT and especially not
WP:GNG. None of the current 3 sources in the article are independent: the site itself, Dr. Sanford's resume, and the
ACF Newsource ref. which appears to be a press release. The
fastweb.it source is a passing mention, although it makes the very bold assertion of "undoubtedly" the most famous science podcast in the world. There is a
brief profile published by UC Davis, which is not very independent. The
YouTube Channel has 14.5k subscribers (is that a lot? I don't know YouTube or podcast trends), and the Twitter account has 4.5k followers. (Science Friday has over
173k YouTube subscribers, so maybe the "most famous in the world" claim is in fact doubtable). The podcast seems to pop up several podcast directories, but that of course doesn't make it notable. The podcast's rather commonplace title somewhat hinders research (
false positives). If there is no independent,
significant coverage, then this cannot realistically be expanded without becoming more promotional, essentially a second official website. Lastly, I think it's just a bit unnerving that the official site invites fans (
minions?) to edit the show's Wikipedia article as a
"Minion project".
--Animalparty! (
talk)
05:03, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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Article about a film with no
reliably sourced claim to passing
WP:NFILM. The notability claim here is that it exists, and the only "sources" present are IMDb and its own self-published production website about itself -- but proving that the film exists is not sufficient in and of itself to secure inclusion in Wikipedia, and instead we require indicators such as notable film awards or reviews by critics in major media. On a search for better sourcing, however, the only solid sources I can find are one blurby and unbylined review in Film Threat and a single article in the director's hometown newspaper on the occasion of its local premiere, which isn't enough to get it over the bar (not least because even from those two sources combined I still can't cobble together a functional description of what the film is about) — otherwise, all I get is glancing namechecks of its existence in later coverage of the director or the cast members, which doesn't help at all.
Bearcat (
talk)
00:56, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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Promotional article by SPA. No evidence this was ever notable.
WP:BEFORE shows only other entities and one-off activities using the same pun as their name. Tagged since 2016; no reasonable prospect of organic improvement. PROD removed claiming sources, but not adding them.
David Gerard (
talk)
00:22, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete I cleaned up a dead link, but the overall sourcing is poor. I did a simple Google search and can't find enough coverage to suggest the company passes
WP:NCORP. The aforementioned editor who contested the PROD has a little time to see if he has more luck than I did finding sources.
TimTempleton(talk)(cont)00:52, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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Promotional article, created by banned vandal. No evidence of notability, even when the company existed; third-party sources are promotional churnalism. Nothing in a
WP:BEFORE, let alone anything of
WP:CORPDEPTH. No reasonable prospect of organic improvement. PROD removed, but with no attention to the sourcing issues.
David Gerard (
talk)
00:20, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
RedirectInterAct should redirect to
GameShark#Brand_history. I guess the page was a redirect to Game Shark for roughly seven years, but then a single-purpose account transformed it to talk about unrelated company using sketchy / self-serving source material. While the InterAct currently described in the page is obscure, the InterAct that created Game Shark has a fair number of published references
[18][19][20][21] and I feel that is enough to warrant having a redirect. --
Elephanthunter (
talk)
06:02, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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Info - Note to closer for soft deletion: While this discussion appears to have
no quorum, it is NOT eligible for
soft deletion because it has been
previously PROD'd (via summary).
Weak Keep as the references provided are reliable and prove notability. The Haddadian-Moghaddam source is especially compelling saying that the journal is 'essential' to the development of translation in Iran. It seems like this is actually quite an important publishing house in Iran given many hits when searching come from bibliographies and footnotes. I assume a Farsi speaker would be able to provide RS from Iranian sources.
Vladimir.copic (
talk)
07:00, 20 July 2021 (UTC)reply
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