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The result was keep. I almost relisted this as the idea of redirection has been mentioned but not thoroughly discussed, but it seems clear consensus favors keeping this in some form, so the deletion discussion is pretty much over. Discussion of whether to redirect can and should continue on the article's talk page. Beeblebrox ( talk) 17:24, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Rachel Crow

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Fails WP:MUSICBIO. Eliminated from The X Factor. She is a POTENTIAL Disney artist. But IF and UNTIL that happens, doesn't seem that this girl rates an article. Safiel ( talk) 23:55, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

Weak keep There are confirmed reports Rachel Crow will have a career with Disney / Nickleodeon productions very soon. Almost all American Idol contestants have pages while they are competing. I think The X Factor carries equal weight to American Idol, so contestants in X Factor should all have, in principle, pages of their own. werldwayd ( talk) 00:04, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was keep. ( non-admin closure) ItsZippy ( talk • contributions) 11:31, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

ISAF Youth Sailing World Championships

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Youth games are normally considered non-notable. Fails wp:GNG. Night of the Big Wind talk 23:54, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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  • Keep Youth World Champions are all over wikipedia and the internet. They are the feeding ground for the Olympics with notable Olympic Medalist having competed in the event. Belcher, Page, Ainslie, etc. I admit the article needs work but it was a starting point. Not sure were your interpretation comes from. ( talk) 12:09, 27 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was keep. Dead links do not qualify an article for deletion. Notability established with significant coverage in reliable sources. ( non-admin closure) Bryce ( talk | contribs) 01:04, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Panacea Biotec

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delete The artile main reference does not work Mukharjeeauthor ( talk) 15:45, 16 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, BusterD ( talk) 23:46, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was keep. -- MuZemike 02:15, 4 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Windswept House: A Vatican Novel

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Non-notable crank roman a clef by a marginal novelist, with no critical attention. Orange Mike | Talk 23:02, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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  • Keep. Critical attention can be found here [9]. Minimally, merge and redirect to the author. Pburka ( talk) 00:38, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per Orangemike, and redirect to Malachi Martin. Unfortunately this piece and its "key" posted on traditio serves as a lightning rod for kooks who think it is a true story and inject it as source material into BLP's mentioned in the "Key".-- Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 03:08, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Redirect to Malachi Martin. I wasn't able to find anything that shows that this book has been reviewed by reliable sources, the key point being "reliable". There's a lot of coverage in a specific set of websites but they aren't generally considered to be notable or reliable enough to be a reliable source. Redirecting to the author should be a good compromise on this since most of what I did find focused on the author just as much if not more than the book. Tokyogirl79 ( talk) 13:55, 25 December 2011 (UTC)tokyogirl79 reply
  • Keep. The main motive for it submission for removal is purely based on POV. Comments like "kooks" and "marginal novelist" do nothing to give the impression that a balanced thought has been mustard to bolster a "delete" argument. An advisor to THREE popes surely has to the credentials to have a page on Wikipedia, especially when the book is reported to contain 80% fact. Forbes Magazine: "No spiritual journey is complete with a Vatican page-turner by Malachi Martin" Reviews. Whilst you may need agree with his text, I am sure that you agree that this is not the motive for a deletion -- Anthony of the Desert ( talk) 02:31, 26 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Keep NYT [10] Chicago Tribune [11] (paywall, but reprinted in the Spartanburg Herald Journal [12]) Publishers Weekly [13] Kirkus Reviews [14] 86.44.31.213 ( talk) 13:28, 26 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Comment. The NYT article is repeated by two editors. The Forbes quote is unsupported by Anthony, although it may indeed be verifiable. Publishers Weekly and Kirkus Reviews review almost every book that's published. Anthony, Martin does have his own article. This is the book we're talking about, not the author. Despite your statement, Anthony, about "motive", you just recently tried to restore the offensive and policy non-compliant material about who each character equates to in real life (according to the author and whatever sources support the "key"). Unfortunately, the notability guideline for having a book article at Wikipedia is very low. The only criterion this particular book could fit into is the reviews, and it's a close call. I would exclude Kirkus and PW for the reason stated above, and we are left with the Times and the Spartunburg papers (can't address the Forbes reference because I haven't seen the review, if indeed it's a review). I don't think the coverage is pervasive enough or of significant depth to include the book. I remind everyone that it is only a guideline and can be overridden by consensus: "meeting these criteria is not an absolute guarantee that Wikipedia should have a separate, stand-alone article entirely dedicated to the book" and "It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply."-- Bbb23 ( talk) 15:12, 26 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Thanks for the information. I was speaking mostly anecdotally and I should have checked my "facts". However, after reading the Book reviews section of our article on PW, it is probably not the best source to establish notability for a book. For example, the reviews are anonymous and short (as is the one for this book) - hardly in-depth. The reviewers are paid a small fee to produce a review. One reviewer said her reviews were altered for mysterious reasons. I would give a PW review little weight.-- Bbb23 ( talk) 15:52, 26 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Indeed, I did try to restore the "offensive" material as I felt that as it was referenced, the reader could make their own conclussions as to its validity and authenticity. As it turned out to be "non-compliant material", I didn't pursue the issue. The issue here is yet another example of despotic "Guardians of the Wikipedia realm" who try to take a sythe to any page that they do not care for, based solely on POV. Maybe they should follow a more democratic road and discuss issues and try to amend them via the 'talkpage' rather going straight for deletion. -- Anthony of the Desert ( talk) 16:01, 26 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • It probably needs to go there, the site is little more than a glorified blog, hosted by a person claiming to be a priest and posting anonymosly as "Father Moderator". I suppose it could be reliable when discussing antisemitism among sedevacantists or things of that nature.-- Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 18:14, 26 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • KEEP There are thousands of articles about books (less of interest or value) than this one, so the point of deleting this can only by subjective. He was an important author in catholicism at the end of the XXth century. This book is his last and most important one. It deals with the infiltration of the roman catholic church by outside ennemies in order to destroy it, an is based on facts. The article should be expanded, not deleted.-- Stijn Calle ( talk) 21:26, 27 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • comment, this discussion is about this book, not thousands of other articles. Martin was an important author to maybe a few fringe groups, but not Catholicism as a whole; this book is not even particularly well-written for him and it is a novel, Stijn, you need to remember that when it comes to BLP. Persinally, Martin's earlier works were better before he reinvented himself as the "Conspiracy Secret Agent Attacked by Satan disguised as a Pitbull sent by a 45thDegree Mason" Priest.-- Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 22:24, 27 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Comment. The policy Mike is talking about is WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. While there are enough sources to make me change my vote from redirect, saying that things should be kept because worse articles exist or because it's important ( WP:ITSIMPORTANT) aren't good arguments for it to be kept. Odds are that this will be kept, but I want you to understand that you need to back up your opinion with things along the lines of WP:NBOOK. Things aren't decided on a vote, but on the strengths of the arguments given. I've seen pages deleted with just one "delete" opinion and pages kept on that same premise, so believe me when I say that the amount of opinions in either direction does not sway the admins. Tokyogirl79 ( talk) 10:49, 28 December 2011 (UTC)tokyogirl79 reply
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The result was delete. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 18:18, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Denbigh Community Primary School

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Primary schools are not generally notable under wp standards, and are subject to deletion/redirect; this appears to be one of the NN ones. Epeefleche ( talk) 22:56, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete - Non-notable.Fails GNG. Redirect might be preferred if it was enshrined in a guideline or policy. But it's not unfortunately. It's just custom and practice that's grown up that is unsupported by anything official. Let's delete and move on. Might encourage acceptance of a decent notability guideline for schools. Fmph ( talk) 10:20, 30 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 18:19, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Hillbourne School and Nursery

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Schools prior to secondary school are not generally notable under wp standards, and are subject to deletion/redirect; this appears to be one of the NN ones. Epeefleche ( talk) 22:49, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete - Non-notable.Fails GNG. Redirect might be preferred if it was enshrined in a guideline or policy. But it's not unfortunately. It's just custom and practice that's grown up that is unsupported by anything official. Let's delete and move on. Might encourage acceptance of a decent notability guideline for schools. Fmph ( talk) 10:24, 30 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was redirect to Schwarz Stein. ( non-admin closure) Armbrust, B.Ed. Let's talk about about my edits? 17:29, 2 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Perfect Garden

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Non-notable single release. Emeraude ( talk) 22:48, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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I am also nominating the following related page by the same band as an equally non-notable single]:

Current (song) (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Emeraude ( talk) 11:44, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 17:20, 2 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Ching Shin Elementary and Junior High School and Kindergarten

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Junior high schools and below are not generally notable under wp standards, and are subject to deletion/redirect; this appears to be one of the NN ones. Epeefleche ( talk) 22:45, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 18:19, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Franciscan Foreign Kindergarten

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Kindergartens are not generally notable under wp standards, and are subject to deletion/redirect; this appears to be one of the NN ones. Epeefleche ( talk) 22:40, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 18:19, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Hill House Kindergarten

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Kindergartens are not generally notable under wp standards, and are subject to deletion/redirect; this appears to be one of the NN ones. Epeefleche ( talk) 22:37, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 18:19, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Etonkids Huizhi Kindergarten

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Kindergartens are not generally notable under wp standards, and are subject to deletion/redirect; this appears to be one of the NN ones. Epeefleche ( talk) 22:36, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 18:20, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Royal Academy Kindergarten

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Kindergartens are not generally notable under wp standards, and are subject to deletion/redirect; this appears to be one of the NN ones. Epeefleche ( talk) 22:34, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 01:28, 4 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Paul Minneman

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Prolix biography of an obscure engineer, padded beyond recognition by addition of vast swaths of material on projects in which he played some behind-the-scenes role. Seems to lack any solid assertions of notability and be violative of WP:NOTCONTAGIOUS. Orange Mike | Talk 22:32, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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  • There are perhaps two key questions. One is notability, the second regarding the availability of the verifiable links to corroborate the information supporting notability. This man at age 35 was one of two people who proposed the Minuteman-II missile program to the US defense department, he ran the program that resulted in the 747 that carried and facilitated flight and landing tests for the space shuttle; made the proposal for Boeing that led to one of the first major PRT system in the US at Morgantown WV, and served as the head of systems engineering to design and execute it. If we assume that additional data can be identified to further corroborate these statements, is this series of contributions to aerospace and transportation substantive enough to achieve notability? Note that so many of these 20, 30, 40 and 50+ year-old documents have not been in a readily accessible form, but are now being released and brought online.

Miklminn ( talk) 01:49, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply

We also have the problem that he worked for Boeing. Which has been...lax (yeah, we'll go with that) when it comes to preserving company history. - The Bushranger One ping only 20:39, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - no reliable sources (as that term is used here) to substantiate notability. Agree that this smacks of a WP:MEMORIAL. ukexpat ( talk) 15:16, 3 January 2012 (UTC) reply
    • clarification - this nomination is by no means meant as disparaging the work done by Minneman and his colleagues. I will quote the chorus of the filksong "Everyman":
For I’m the man who took up tools and laid out the designs
Of starships, I’m the one who built their sleek and burnished lines.
I’m everyman who ever fashioned cold refinéd steel
Into the dreams of spaceflight, I’m the one who made them real.
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The result was keep as the nomination was withdrawn with no dissenting voices. TerriersFan ( talk) 18:18, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply

Misr American College

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Middle schools are not generally notable under wp standards, and are subject to deletion/redirect; this appears to be one of the NN ones. Epeefleche ( talk) 22:27, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

Ahah -- so it does. I stand corrected. It is not in the lead, but there it is, 2 paras prior to "MAC achieves through its dynamic, internationally experienced personnel... a blend of highly qualified foreign nationals and Egyptians, provide stellar education for students", and 2 before "The only downside to the school's system is the fact that the school itself is quite suffocating, for it barely holds more than two grades in the courtyard. The school is so small that the student body is too big to fit in the courtyard during break time, let alone do any extra curricular activities due to lack of space." It has other problems, but the aforementioned one is not one of them.-- Epeefleche ( talk) 23:07, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was Speedy delete, a WP:SNOW for Christmas. NawlinWiki ( talk) 03:42, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply

Stars of Warner Brothers, the early talkie days

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An unreferenced article which does not specify clear inclusion criteria, so is inherently impossible to define. The list of people included is arbitrary original research. Prod was removed without comment, so bringing here for discussion. Sparthorse ( talk) 22:27, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 18:21, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Creative Minds

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Elementary/middle schools are not generally notable under wp standards, and are subject to deletion/redirect; this appears to be one of the NN ones. Epeefleche ( talk) 22:20, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was Keep - withdrawn by nominator. -- Bduke (Discussion) 00:55, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply

Berwick Grammar School

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grammar schools are not generally notable under wp standards, and are subject to deletion/redirect; this appears to be one of the NN ones. Epeefleche ( talk) 22:14, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

  • Keep. The nominator is clearly ignorant of what constitutes a grammar school in different parts of the worls or what Wikipdeia's tradition is with school articles. Our normal procedure is to delete/redirect articles on primary schools, but this is clearly an article about a school which provides secondary education. Keep. Emeraude ( talk) 23:01, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Withdraw -- as, though this is not at all indicated in the article itself, this grammar school contains not only a middle school (note: my understanding all schools that are only as high as the middle school level are treated as indicated above), but also a senior school.-- Epeefleche ( talk) 23:11, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alphington Grammar School (2nd nomination)

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The result was redirect to Miami-Dade County Public Schools#K-8 schools. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 18:21, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Eugenia B. Thomas K-8 Center

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K-8 schools are not generally notable under wp standards, and are subject to deletion/redirect; this appears to be one of the NN ones. Epeefleche ( talk) 22:07, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was redirect to Miami-Dade County Public Schools#K-8 schools. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 18:22, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

David Lawrence Jr. K-8 Center

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K-8 schools are not generally notable under wp standards, and are subject to deletion/redirect; this appears to be one of the NN ones. Epeefleche ( talk) 22:06, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was redirect to List of Baltimore City public schools#Middle schools. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 18:23, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Calverton Elementary/Middle School (Baltimore, Maryland)

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Elementary/middle schools are not generally notable under wp standards, and are subject to deletion/redirect; this appears to be one of the NN ones. Epeefleche ( talk) 22:05, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was no consensus to delete. Work out the details on what is and is not a secondary or high school, then have this discussion if necessary. There seems to be significant confusion on that point. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 01:32, 4 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Albatross Grammar School

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Appears to be a non-notable grammar school, and per wp standards a redirect (after delete of this content) in order. Epeefleche ( talk) 21:58, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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  • Hi, Gene. I had understood that while we usually keep high schools per editor consensus, that is not the case with middle schools/junior high schools and other schools that are junior to high schools. Can you perhaps point me to the consensus that middle schools/junior high schools are kept, that you refer to? Thanks.-- Epeefleche ( talk) 01:18, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • I'm happy to change my position if I can see where there is the consensus that schools up to grade 10 are treated the same as those that are higher level. If I can find or be shown that the unreferenced claim in the article that it does in fact go up to grade 10 can be sourced to an RS -- I see that two editors now have indicated that that is the case, but I can't find rs support for it myself in the article or on google, though it is likely my search is not as capable as that of others. Thanks.-- Epeefleche ( talk) 04:25, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Keep per TeririersFan. In most countries, the legal school leaving age is around 16, or a rough equivalent of US grade 10. This would include collèges in the French education system, for example, where junior high and senior high (lycée) are completely separate institutions, and secondary or comprehensive schools in the UK where sixth form colleges are also often separate. In developing countries, grades 11/12 are often only available to students within reach of large schools in big cities. What we don't generally include in these criteria are 'middle' schools where students are required to continue to the third tier before they are allowed to leave. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 05:16, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Delete It does not educate beyond grade 10, so is more of a middle school, than a high school, thus failing to gain the blanket assumption of notability typically granted high schools. No sources have been presented to show it satisfies WP:N or WP:ORG, and Wikipedia is WP:NOT not a directory of every organization, business, or school which has ever existed. It is unreasonable to claim that if in some country people leave school after 10th grade) or 8th grade, or 5th grade) that that education pattern automatically makes their highest level of schooling notable for all such schools. Each such lesser school should be held strictly to satisfaction of WP:ORG, the applicable notability standard. Sources to satisfy it can usually be found with moderate effort for high schools, which get coverage in newspapers over a wider area. Edison ( talk) 18:30, 27 December 2011 (UTC) reply
What country's Ministry of Education classifies its school-leaver-age secondary schools as 'more of a middle school'? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 08:37, 30 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete as failing WP:GNG. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 01:39, 4 January 2012 (UTC) reply

MMA 1: The Reckoning

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Non-notable mixed martial arts event. No significant coverage or lasting historical significance. Primary results reporting. References are not from independent sources. Osubuckeyeguy ( talk) 21:35, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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  • It is historically significant for Ontario (population of over 13 million), and MMA fans, since the UFC has called Toronto the "Fight capital of the world" ( http://www.mmafighting.com/2011/10/12/dana-white-calls-toronto-the-ufcs-fight-capital-of-the-world/). Since the fight to get MMA in Ontario was a long one, compared to Vancouver, Montreal, and other major venues in Canada, this event is nationally significant, just as the first MMA event in New York state will be, once MMA is sanctioned there. What is the purpose of deleting this information? If someone wants to find out what the first ever MMA event is in Ontario, why make that harder for them by removing it from Wikipedia? Would we also be removing the fight itself from Burkman's page? Deleting fights, and re-writing history is hardly what Wikipedia is about. The results (verified by several different sources) clearly confirm the event took place, which is the most important part of the article - the date, place, and fighters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stynn ( talk • contribs) 19:15, 30 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Though I still think keeping this page separate is the most user-friendly and accessible means of data organization for this historic information (as it allows people to see exactly who faught on the event, and how they won, etc), if the information police deem it unworthy for its own page, someone should update this article ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_Martial_Arts_in_Ontario) to include a significant amount of information from this event. Otherwise, the "Mixed Martial Arts in Ontario" article implies that the event in Toronto was the first, which is historically inaccurate.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Stynn ( talk • contribs)
  • Further Debate Regarding WP:GNG - after a small update to the article, to simplify this debate, can we mutually establish where criteria is not being met here?
"Significant coverage" - topic is covered in many articles, ranging from several general sports updates, to a detailed breakdown of the challenges and changes of putting on an MMA show in Ontario compared to other places. I, personally, am not sure what else should be added to the basic article to fulfill this criteria. As such, I think we are still debating whether this has been met satisfactorily, correct?
"Reliable" - Several major and independent articles provided, ranging from mainstream (TSN and Sportsnet) to independent MMA sites. Not sure if this was a point of debate.
"Sources" - was once a point. Are we still hoping to collect a greater variety of articles on this event to meet this criteria?
"Independent of the subject" - Creator of article made an error here in using a promoter (and host venue) of the event as sources. Should be removed. Other sources are independent of the subject itself (though they focus on Canadian sports).
"Presumed" - I don't believe there is any controversy regarding this point, but correct me if I am wrong. Stynn ( talk) 20:13, 30 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Stynn, when debating an article for deletion, you should only type your vote to keep or delete once. AfDs involve more than counting votes, but limiting each person to one vote makes it easier to follow who is participating in the debate. You should also sign your posts by typing three tildes (~) at the end. I have removed duplicate votes and added your signature where it was still missing. Osubuckeyeguy ( talk) 20:46, 30 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Being the first event in Ontario makes this interesting, but not inherently notable. This event featured only a handful of notable fighters and the page, as it currently exists, primarily reports match results, which are just routine sports information. Information about this event could certainly be added to Mixed Martial Arts in Ontario; the event itself, though, does not warrant its own page. Otherwise, we would have a page for the "first" sporting event of every kind in every country, state, and province. There does not appear to be significant independent coverage that establishes the notability of this event - just a handful of reports that the event happened and the results. There are a few articles I found in the London Free Press, but little information outside of Ontario to establish more than local significance. Osubuckeyeguy ( talk) 21:04, 30 December 2011 (UTC) reply

Sorry, Osubuckeyeguy I was using the "keep" thing more to signify "what" i was arguing, moreso than as a vote itself. Didn't realize it was a signifier of a vote.

RE: "Otherwise, we would have a page for the "first" sporting event of every kind in every country, state, and province." - Why is that a problem? I would think people living in a state would be interested in the information about the whens, wheres, whys and whos regarding their first MMA event. Especially somewhere like Ontario and New York, where citizens have been trying to get MMA sanctioned for years. But generally speaking, even in smaller places, isn't that what an encyclopedia is for? Mass-information? The only reason I made this page in the first place was because multiple sources (wikipedia included) were claiming UFC 129 was the first MMA event in Ontario, which was simply incorrect. There was no major, central resource for finding information about this event. And as an MMA researcher, radio host, and columnist, I find wikipedia is an excellent starting point for this type of miscellaneous information, and excluding significant firsts seems somewhat counter-productive to maintaining and cataloguing historical firsts. Regardless of who is or was on it, I would find it valuable to have a page with detailed information on the first MMA event in Brazil, California, New York, etc, and I am sure many others would too. These are key changes for the growth of MMA, and since MMA is still developing, it's basically a history that we are writing now, on Wikipedia. This is why I think it's important to catalogue it correctly, and not just give it a semi-mention on some partially unrelated page. Stynn ( talk)

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The result was delete. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 18:24, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Littleton Pre-School

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Preschool. Appears to be non-notable. Delete (w/redirect to whatever makes sense would be fine) appears to be in order. Epeefleche ( talk) 21:30, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete - Non-notable.Fails GNG. Redirect might be preferred if it was enshrined in a guideline or policy. But it's not unfortunately. It's just custom and practice that's grown up that is unsupported by anything official. Let's delete and move on. Might encourage acceptance of a decent notability guideline for schools. Fmph ( talk) 10:25, 30 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was merge to International Khiladi. ( non-admin closure) Armbrust, B.Ed. Let's talk about my edits? 21:34, 2 January 2012 (UTC) reply

International Khilaadi

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Existing article. There is already an article on this subject. Torreslfchero ( talk) 21:24, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 17:19, 2 January 2012 (UTC) reply

The Edward Richardson Community Primary School

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Primary school. Appears to be non-notable. Delete (w/redirect to whatever makes sense would be fine) appears to be in order. Epeefleche ( talk) 21:23, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

  • Comment The fact the school is possibly built on an ancient landfill site might lend notability if this fact can be substantiated as notable by a reliable source (beyond a class 2 project from 14 years ago). If the article is kept, a good deal of the rest is noise and needs stripping down. Wikipedia isn't free web-space and some of the material is better at home on an official website. Some of it probably doesn't even belong on the schools website never mind here. For example, does anyone need to know there are 7 car parking spaces for staff? Pit-yacker ( talk) 22:09, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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  • Delete - Non-notable.Fails GNG. Redirect might be preferred if it was enshrined in a guideline or policy. But it's not unfortunately. It's just custom and practice that's grown up that is unsupported by anything official. Let's delete and move on. Might encourage acceptance of a decent notability guideline for schools. Fmph ( talk) 10:26, 30 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 18:26, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Rishab's Number

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The creator contested the prod with "This number is entirely my work and no one has come up with it before me so there is no way of having a third party source. This number is useful for chemistry students who want to save time. I have given all sources from where i got the equations. [emphasis added]". Non notable. → Σ τ c. 21:15, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

  • Delete as Original Research. Also non-notable. If this number hasn't been invented before (under another name) then there should be publications about it in Journals, etc. So why aren't there any? If it has been invented before, then this "rediscovery" by a school-boy is non-notable. Pit-yacker ( talk) 21:56, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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Eppstein has given a link to a guideline that is clear enough. There is also WP:NOR. Xxanthippe ( talk) 23:23, 25 December 2011 (UTC). reply
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The result was delete. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 17:20, 2 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Cleves School, Weybridge

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Primary school. Appears to be non-notable. Delete (w/redirect to whatever makes sense would be fine) appears to be in order. Epeefleche ( talk) 21:01, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

  • Delete: Primary schools are not inherently notable (there are almost 17,000 in UK). This article fails to state why this school in particular is notable. As far as I can tell, "Outstanding" is one of four Ofsted grades for schools - approx 10 - 20% of schools fall into this grade. Pit-yacker ( talk) 21:48, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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Comment:Indeed, the 17,000 number is irrelevant IF all 17,000 subjects are notable for some reason in their own right. The consensus in the past has been that primary schools are not inherently notable. That means that for the article to stay, there must a claim made as to why this school is notable. This article makes no claim as to why this primary school is, in terms of notability, any different to any one of the 17,000 other primary schools in the UK (alone - never mind the rest of the world).
Your reliable source is from Ofsted. Ofsted, is a statutory authority charged with inspecting standards at every school in England from nursery upwards. There will be one of these documents for every single establishment. The conclusion of your argument is thus that, every single school in England is automatically notable because Ofsted inspects it. In reality, the inspection report you reference does little more than a) confirm this school exists b) in this particular case, tells us its performance - as assessed at its last 3-yearly inspection - is above average.
If you can find a reason that this school is truly notable, I'll strike my delete. For example, does the school have any historical significance? Is the school building even listed? - Although there are almost 400,000 Grade II listed buildings, I would consider this a different matter as listing is an expert recognition of a building's significance compared to other buildings. Compare that with an Ofsted inspection report which is a statutory document produced by virtue of the mere existence of a school. Pit-yacker ( talk) 20:20, 26 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Yes, all such English schools are notable because they will all have such detailed reports created by an independent, reliable authority. You seem to misunderstand the meaning of notability. Per the relevant guideline, this does not require fame or importance. What the word notability means here is just that the topic has been noticed — that some independent, professional authors have taken the trouble to write about the topic. The reason for this is that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and this word means that we cover the full circle of knowledge. We are not the Guinness Book of Records, only looking for superlatives. We are not Ripley's Believe It or Not! looking only for novelties and the bizarre. We aim to be to the "sum of the world's knowledge" and that means all noted topics not just an arbitrary fraction. Warden ( talk) 20:50, 26 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Your test for notability is that "some independent, professional authors have taken the trouble to write about the topic." But that's not the test here at WP, because routine, matter-of-course coverage which every entity of a certain type gets no matter what, doesn't count. I suggest you modify your test to read: "some independent, professional authors -- who are not required to write about the particular topic as a matter of course -- have chosen to take the trouble to write about the topic, in preference to the many other topics they might have chosen but did not." EEng ( talk) 23:36, 26 December 2011 (UTC) reply
No, you are quite mistaken. If all entities of a certain type tend to have detailed sources then we will cover them all, not just a selected few. We therefore cover all elected politicians, all professional athletes, all human settlements, all chemicals, all species, all mathematical theorems, all battles, all universities, &c. As we certainly cover some schools, we should therefore cover all schools for which sources can be found. Like this one. Warden ( talk) 14:42, 27 December 2011 (UTC) reply
I'm sorry, do you just make things up hoping people will believe them? You've been here plenty long enough to know that's not true. Give it up. You're making yourself look silly, you're wasting others' time, and you're not doing this school any favors by prolonging the discussion of just how unremarkable it really is. EEng ( talk) 23:53, 29 December 2011 (UTC) P.S. "All mathematical theorems" -- really? Wow -- that's a lot of articles! Why, I hardly know how to begin enumerating them! reply
Actually you are incorrect. For example, I have seen quite a number of articles for elected local councillors being deleted as non-notable. Politicians with articles are generally viewed as being notable because they have regular and non-trivial coverage in multiple sources, not because they have a birth certificate and appear in the census. I dare say the same applies to all the other topics you identify. For example, a mathematical theorem (or theory of any kind) becomes notable because it is mentioned in peer reviewed publications. Believe me, there is an absolute wasteland of discarded and/or discredited research in the literature that does not have or deserve an article. There is even more that didn't get as far as publication. Pit-yacker ( talk) 15:28, 27 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Comment: A typical planning application generates many many more pages of reports. In this case a planning officer has "noticed" a planning application and has written a detailed report about the application and why (or why not) the development should be allowed to proceed. Generally speaking, these are also publicly available. By your logic these should be taken as meeting WP:GNG for the subject of the application. That means that we should have articles for every supermarket built in at least the last 30 years (Even better we can have an article on my local branch of ASDA opening 24hrs - because that required another application (and series of reports) to remove the original condition limiting it hours to 7am-9pm . Pit-yacker ( talk) 01:55, 27 December 2011 (UTC) reply
I'm not sure to whose logic you're referring. My intent was to exclude routine reports and so on as significant coverage, trying to explain that in terms of Warden's idea. Looks like I left too many loopholes. EEng ( talk) 13:59, 27 December 2011 (UTC) reply
I was replying to Warden Pit-yacker ( talk) 14:25, 27 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Redirect to Weybridge#Education where it is already mentioned, per standard procedure. Primary schools have no inherent notability and an Osfsted report merely confirms their existence through 3-yearly routine inspections with : 'This school has classrooms, pupils, and teachers, and it should strive to do better at...' However, non notable schools are generally neither kept nor deleted; instead, as demonstrated by 100s of AfD closures, they are redirected to the article about the school district (USA) or to the article about the locality (rest of the world). -- Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 08:47, 30 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 17:20, 2 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Chennestone Primary School

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Primary school. Appears to be non-notable. Delete (w/redirect to whatever makes sense would be fine) appears to be in order. Epeefleche ( talk) 21:01, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 17:21, 2 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Forest View Primary School

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Primary school. Appears to be non-notable. Delete (w/redirect to whatever makes sense would be fine) appears to be in order. Epeefleche ( talk) 20:59, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete - Non-notable.Fails GNG. Redirect might be preferred if it was enshrined in a guideline or policy. But it's not unfortunately. It's just custom and practice that's grown up that is unsupported by anything official. Let's delete and move on. Might encourage acceptance of a decent notability guideline for schools. Fmph ( talk) 10:26, 30 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 17:21, 2 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Charlton Kings Junior School

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Junior school. Appears to be non-notable. Delete (w/redirect to whatever makes sense would be fine) appears to be in order. Epeefleche ( talk) 20:58, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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Comment: Per my comment at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cleves School, Weybridge. These sources are statutory inspection reports. Every single school in England has one of these as a product of three yearly government inspections of schools. Thus if notability of this school is determined by the existence of the above inspection report, the conclusion of this is that every single other school in England must also be automatically be notable. The existence of publicly available documentation generated at various levels of government related to a subject automatically granting notability is plain absurd. Virtually every major building project in the UK generates many more pages of planning documentation. Most of this is now publicly available online. Does that mean we have sufficient notability to start articles for every branch of Tesco built in the last 30 years?
  • The government sector accounts for nearly half the UK economy. If we eliminated the government activity on such grounds that it is mundane then this would leave a correspondingly large hole in our coverage of the country. But we are an encyclopedia and so are expected to cover everything; not just pop records and footballers. Warden ( talk) 10:46, 27 December 2011 (UTC) reply
I didn't say government reports are mundane. There is nothing wrong with using a routine government report as a reference, in an article where notability is already established. However,I can't see that a routine (generated by virtue of the subjects mere existence) government report can be used to establish such notability. As I have said, the logical conclusion of your position is that virtually every supermarket built in the UK is also notable by virtue of the fact that the planning process generated a number of hefty planning reports. Pit-yacker ( talk) 11:57, 27 December 2011 (UTC) reply
In reality, the content of the report isn't much use here either. It does little more than confirm the existence of the school and perhaps at a stretch tells us that the school's performance is pretty average. Pit-yacker ( talk) 01:46, 27 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Nonsense. The report covers the essential activities and facts about the school - this is its point and purpose. If you're not interested in the school and its performance then this will naturally seem rather dry. But in that case, you should move on to a topic which does interest you; not try to destroy this one because it bores you. Warden ( talk)
I suggest incubation as a last resort ( Alternatives to deletion). I am sure that this school is more notable than you think. The school naturally harbors soon-to-be pupils of the high-ranking Balcarras School. TDW ✉ 00:24, 30 December 2011 (UTC) reply


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  • Delete - Non-notable.Fails GNG. Redirect might be preferred if it was enshrined in a guideline or policy. But it's not unfortunately. It's just custom and practice that's grown up that is unsupported by anything official. Let's delete and move on. Might encourage acceptance of a decent notability guideline for schools. Fmph ( talk) 10:27, 30 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 17:21, 2 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Charlton Kings Infants' School

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Primary school. Appears to be non-notable. Delete (w/redirect to whatever makes sense would be fine) appears to be in order. Epeefleche ( talk) 20:57, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete - Non-notable.Fails GNG. Redirect might be preferred if it was enshrined in a guideline or policy. But it's not unfortunately. It's just custom and practice that's grown up that is unsupported by anything official. Let's delete and move on. Might encourage acceptance of a decent notability guideline for schools. Fmph ( talk) 10:28, 30 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was redirect to Kuala Lumpur as the article fails the primary notability guideline of having "significant coverage in secondary sources". ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 01:53, 4 January 2012 (UTC) reply

SJKC Jalan Davidson

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Primary school. Appears to be non-notable. Delete (w/redirect to whatever makes sense would be fine) appears to be in order. Epeefleche ( talk) 20:56, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was redirect to Petaling Jaya. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 02:03, 4 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Sekolah Sri Petaling

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Primary school. Appears to be non-notable. Delete (w/redirect to whatever makes sense would be fine) appears to be in order. Epeefleche ( talk) 20:55, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete Redirect. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 17:22, 2 January 2012 (UTC) Changed to 'redirect' per discussion: See talk. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 13:40, 11 January 2012 (UTC) reply

St. Christopher's International Primary School

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Primary school. Appears to be non-notable. Delete (w/redirect to whatever makes sense would be fine) appears to be in order. Epeefleche ( talk) 20:51, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete Redirect. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 17:22, 2 January 2012 (UTC) Result changed per discussion. See talk. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 13:20, 11 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Telok Kurau Primary School

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Primary school. Appears to be non-notable. Delete (w/redirect to whatever makes sense would be fine) appears to be in order. Epeefleche ( talk) 20:50, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was Redirect to Papar, Malaysia. Hut 8.5 19:00, 3 January 2012 (UTC) reply

SK Kuala Papar

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Primary school. Appears to be non-notable. Delete (w/redirect to whatever makes sense would be fine) appears to be in order. Epeefleche ( talk) 20:49, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 17:22, 2 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Topcliffe Primary School

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Primary school. Appears to be non-notable. Delete (w/redirect to whatever makes sense would be fine) appears to be in order. Epeefleche ( talk) 20:48, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete - Non-notable.Fails GNG. Redirect might be preferred if it was enshrined in a guideline or policy. But it's not unfortunately. It's just custom and practice that's grown up that is unsupported by anything official. Let's delete and move on. Might encourage acceptance of a decent notability guideline for schools. Fmph ( talk) 10:29, 30 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 17:22, 2 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Ryders Green Primary School

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Primary school. Appears to be non-notable. Delete (w/redirect to whatever makes sense would be fine) appears to be in order. Epeefleche ( talk) 20:47, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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  • Comment: I don't think West Bromwich Albion's notability is contagious enough to infect this school. Even then, unfortunately, it is difficult to assess whether a lot of the claims made are real or odd one-offs with a bit of added peacockery. The referenced pages that are still live suggest 2 former pupils are (or were) members of WBA's under 11 and under 13 squads respectively in 2008. The other suggests that one team member came to the school once in 2007. A bit of quick digging suggests that Ormiston Education Trust is actually some sort of consultancy related to setting up Academies. More digging suggests that the "ECM Charter Mark" has at the very least fallen out of favour since the change of government. Pit-yacker ( talk) 22:51, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Keep The topic is notable per the WP:GNG, being the subject of multiple independent and reliable sources such as this. Warden ( talk) 21:16, 26 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Delete (or redirect if appropriate). No significant coverage. Run-of-the-mill. A routine government report, as as that linked above, does not establish "significant coverage": It demonstrates only existence, not notability. Notability is also not inherited from former pupils. Neutrality talk 00:02, 27 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - I don't see the connections with WBA as anything more than a tenuous link to be honest, which leaves nothing to claim notability at GNG level with. If those links with the football club can be shown to be notable beyond that which can normally be assumed for a football club then I might reconsider. Blue Square Thing ( talk) 15:24, 27 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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  • Delete - Non-notable.Fails GNG. Redirect might be preferred if it was enshrined in a guideline or policy. But it's not unfortunately. It's just custom and practice that's grown up that is unsupported by anything official. Let's delete and move on. Might encourage acceptance of a decent notability guideline for schools. Fmph ( talk) 10:29, 30 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 17:23, 2 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Reaside Junior School

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Junior school. Appears to be non-notable. Delete (w/redirect to whatever makes sense would be fine) appears to be in order. Epeefleche ( talk) 20:46, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete - Non-notable.Fails GNG. Redirect might be preferred if it was enshrined in a guideline or policy. But it's not unfortunately. It's just custom and practice that's grown up that is unsupported by anything official. Let's delete and move on. Might encourage acceptance of a decent notability guideline for schools. Fmph ( talk) 10:30, 30 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was redirect to The Troll Hunter. -- MuZemike 02:17, 4 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Troll Hunter (2014 film)

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Film has not entered production and has not had significant coverage. It is WP:TOOSOON for an article. BOVINEBOY 2008 20:45, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

The film hasn't entered production but it is still being made. It's not doing any harm there being an article on it, I keep checking up news for it and whenever I will see something new I will add it in. It can just patiently wait until there is more information. Or if there is a way (is there a way?) that the article won't be able to be seen by the public and the only people who can see it is people who have a registered account? We could just make it dormant (if we can)? -- Charlr6 ( talk) 21:07, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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Is there anyway we can make it dormant though? Or at least save until a later date and open it up when more information is released?-- Charlr6 ( talk) 08:28, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply

It could be moved to userspace (e.g. to User:Charlr6/Troll Hunter (2014 film)) for you to continue working on it or it could be incubated to allow wider input, but for the latter we would need to have a reasonable chance of it growing enough to return to mainspace within a few months. -- Michig ( talk) 08:47, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply


I don't mind looking after it and adding in more information as it comes. Is everyone happy with that? When everyone is happy I'll copy over the information from the page onto my userspace and create the link that Michig gave. -- Charlr6 ( talk) 12:43, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply


I've created the User:Charlr6/Troll Hunter (2014 film) page. So the main page can be deleted now and until further important information is out I'll just edit the page myself on the page until its worthy to be making a proper page out of. -- Charlr6 ( talk) 17:03, 26 December 2011 (UTC) reply

  • don't think it makes sense for you to have it in your userspace. if it's a main article then other people would not know where to find it, if they have something to add. not sure what else to do. Bouket ( talk) 19:24, 2 January 2012 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 17:23, 2 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Prince Albert School

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Primary school. Appears to be non-notable. Delete (w/redirect to whatever makes sense would be fine) appears to be in order. Epeefleche ( talk) 20:45, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete - Non-notable.Fails GNG. Redirect might be preferred if it was enshrined in a guideline or policy. But it's not unfortunately. It's just custom and practice that's grown up that is unsupported by anything official. Let's delete and move on. Might encourage acceptance of a decent notability guideline for schools. Fmph ( talk) 10:31, 30 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 17:23, 2 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Abbotsbury Primary School

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Primary school. Appears to be non-notable. Delete (w/redirect to whatever makes sense would be fine) appears to be in order. Epeefleche ( talk) 20:40, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

  • Delete: Primary Schools aren't considered to be inherently notable. There are around 17,000 primary schools in the UK. Article fails to state why this school is any more notable than any of these. In fact, there is nothing in the article which couldn't be re-created in a couple of mins. Pit-yacker ( talk) 20:50, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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  • Delete - Non-notable.Fails GNG. Redirect might be preferred if it was enshrined in a guideline or policy. But it's not unfortunately. It's just custom and practice that's grown up that is unsupported by anything official. Let's delete and move on. Might encourage acceptance of a decent notability guideline for schools. Fmph ( talk) 10:32, 30 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 17:23, 2 January 2012 (UTC) reply

John Rankin Junior School

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Primary school. Appears to be non-notable. Delete (w/redirect to whatever makes sense would be fine) appears to be in order. Epeefleche ( talk) 20:30, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

  • Delete. As with other noms there are almost 17,000 primary schools in the UK. Article fails to state why this one is notable. Although, a large number of playing fields have been sold off over the last 15 or so years, it isn't unusual for a primary school to have a large playing field. So that for example cant be taken as notability. Pit-yacker ( talk) 21:24, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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  • Delete - Non-notable.Fails GNG. Redirect might be preferred if it was enshrined in a guideline or policy. But it's not unfortunately. It's just custom and practice that's grown up that is unsupported by anything official. Let's delete and move on. Might encourage acceptance of a decent notability guideline for schools. Fmph ( talk) 10:33, 30 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was Speedy Deletion by Fastily under G8. ( non-admin closure) ItsZippy ( talk • contributions) 11:40, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Unriddle and Unriddle 2

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Seems to be just a merged version of two separate articles: Unriddle and Unriddle 2. The second article nominated just lists the casts of each series, again both of which can be found in the individual articles. Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars ( talk) 20:06, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete per WP:NOT#MANUAL. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 02:14, 4 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Model United Nations resolution

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(PROD rejected) This is a set of instructions for participants in a portion of a Model United Nations meeting, a clear-cut violation of WP:NOT#MANUAL, and has no place here. Orange Mike | Talk 20:08, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

  • Oppose. This is a reasonable subject for an article; and needs to be cleaned up, not deleted. The author, a new editor, has asked for help with this. This deletion nomination was made after I asked the nominator to provide such assistance. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:42, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Delete WP:NOTHOWTO. I don't see a need for a separate article on a MUN resolution apart from the article Model United Nations. 76.65.128.132 ( talk) 04:32, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Oppose. For those who are trying to help: thank you for your support. I too don't think this is a set of instructions. Wikipedia does not accept: Instruction manuals (of objects etc., this article is about an educational conference), travel guide (obviously not), video game guides (X), internet guides (X), FAQs (X), texbooks (although the article seems as though it has been created to "instruct", in reality it "informs", because it provides information not only about the conference, but also about rules and procedures), case studies (X), scientific journals (X). Also, the article Model United Nations does not provide the necessary information for participants, for instance there is no information about what a resolution really is and how its supposed to be written. It is important to note the article addresses everyone and anyone who is interested, meaning it's not a instruction manual only for participants, anyone can "get informed" about MUN resolution thanks to the article. I think it's a must and it's needed. Once again, please try to help improve the article instead of insisting the article has to be deleted. A lot of effort was put into the article.-- AsyaMariaIgmen ( talk) 07:31, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Delete — nothing here belongs on Wikipedia. Feel free to recreate if you believe that you can demonstrate the notability of the topic, but to get a reasonable article, you'd have to do a 100% rewrite: the intro isn't sourced and would need completely new writing, and the rest would need to be trashed because Wikipedia isn't a how-to manual. Nyttend ( talk) 14:20, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Oppose ....... Although various people are claiming the article is "trash" and should be rewritten 100%, no one is pointing out WHY. "Wikipedia is not a how-to manual" is not a good enough answer, as I've repeatedly wrote (quoting from What "Wikipedia is not" article [15]) that this article is NOT a manual. The article is about the MUN Resolution and informs readers of what a resolution is and how it should be like. The article is not only about "Writing a MUN resolution", it's also about the "Adventure of the MUN Resolution" [ [16]] and provides important information for both students who will attend the MUN conferences, and people who just want to know more about MUN. Not having an article about the MUN resolution is like having an article on the Olympics but not on swimming, or figure skating. If you believe the article was written poorly, please say so without insisting the article is "trash". "While Wikipedia has descriptions of people, places and things, an article should not read like a 'how-to' style owners manual, advice column (legal, medical or otherwise) or suggestion box. This includes tutorials, walk-throughs, instruction manuals, game guides, and recipes (...)" ( /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_a_manual.2C_guidebook.2C_textbook.2C_or_scientific_journal]] Now let's get back to the article: It is not a tutorial, not a walk-through (IT SIMPLY STATES WHAT A MUN RESOLUTION IS AND HOW IT USUALLY LOOKS LIKE/SHOULD LOOK LIKE), not an instruction manual (the article is not about how to USE a resolution, again it only supplies the reader with the necessary information before attending a MUN conference or simply provides EVERYTHING ANYONE would want to know about resolutions). AsyaMariaIgmen ( talk) 17:06, 28 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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  • Merge any salient high-level information (like maybe a paragraph or two about the basic structure of a resolution) to Model United Nations, and then redirect to the latter article. Much as I hate supporting deletion of material that someone has put a lot of effort into creating, Wikipedia really is not the place for most of this, in my opinion. As others have mentioned, it reads very much like an instruction manual or user guide, and I think it is a well-established principle that it's not Wikipedia's role to host such things. 86.181.202.9 ( talk) 21:30, 31 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Delete as per WP:NOTHOWTO. Any pertinent high-level info can be added to Model United Nations as per 86.181.202.9. -- P 1 9 9 •  TALK 16:32, 2 January 2012 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. — Tom Morris ( talk) 17:30, 2 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Călin Tiuţ

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While Mr. Tiuţ is contracted to a fully pro club, he is yet to make any appearances, and as such fails WP:NSPORT. He has received insufficient coverage to meet WP:GNG Sir Sputnik ( talk) 19:31, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was keep. ( non-admin closure) Bryce ( talk | contribs) 15:18, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Likejacking

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It would be easier to merge this to Like button, but I've started a merge proposal for that article due to my disagreeing with that article's outcome at it's deletion request. The article is a stub, and there is not always a chance that some editor will come along and bring it to a starting-class article. Flutter shy !xmcuvg2MH 19:21, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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Keep Seems like a perfectly valid concisely written article on a notable security exploit to me. I fail to see why some people have the urge to delete anything which can't be expanded to a multi-page piece. "Have they ever seen an actual paper encyclopaedia?", I wonder, most of their entries are even shorter our "stubs". This could be merged into Like button, but only if that would be kept as a separate article, while the nominator intend to also merge that particular article into Facebook. So, keep for now. — Ruud 12:30, 26 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. No arguments have been raised against deletion. If better sourcing can be found, a future article may be a possibility, but nothing has been presented to indicate that this is a possibility at this time. Seraphimblade Talk to me 07:52, 3 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Аbkhaz-adyg people

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Appears to be a synthesis of different ethnic groups of the Caucasus. The only apparent link between the listed groups is that their languages are all part of the Northwest Caucasian group. But, whether the peoples are also linked by culture (customs, folklore etc.), shared history, genetics etc is unclear. The only source doesn't accurately support the text and may not be a reliable source for this topic. Claret Ash 06:09, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete. No evidence can be found that anyone (except the article's creator) considers the ensemble of speakers of the various Northwest Caucasian languages a "people".  -- Lambiam 19:43, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. — Tom Morris ( talk) 17:30, 2 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Glenrothes Skate Park

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I don't think most skate parks, including this one, are notable. Just as the local basketball court isn't notable either. Shadowjams ( talk) 11:01, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was Delete. Hut 8.5 18:53, 3 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Opusten ko Lexaurin

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Album appears to be non-notable, due to lack of substantial RS coverage. Zero refs. Tagged as non-notable for well over 3 years. Also tagged as an orphan. Epeefleche ( talk) 03:10, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was Delete. Hut 8.5 19:07, 3 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Engineering Society of Multimedia University

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This university society does not appear to have the non-trivial RS coverage required for notability. Tagged for over 2 years for notability, and being written like an advertisement. Epeefleche ( talk) 20:14, 16 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was no consensus. -- MuZemike 02:19, 4 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Blake Whitney Thompson

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Unremarkable lawyer/financier. A clean up of the poor sources and dead links would leave very few references. The subject has made a complaint that the presence of templates "makes me look like less of a businessperson". Deletion would be a solution to that problem. Delicious carbuncle ( talk) 03:00, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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  • "Buyer's approach: Savings will be shared with tenants". Tampa Bay Business Journal. January 21, 2011. Retrieved December 17, 2011. {{ cite web}}: External link in |publisher= ( help)
  • Silva, Cristina (August 12, 2007). "Architectural perceptions clash". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved December 17, 2011. {{ cite web}}: External link in |publisher= ( help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= ( help)</ref>
  • Boey, Valerie (December 25, 2007). "20-somethings come up with $500 million real estate plan". Tampa News, Channel 10. Retrieved December 17, 2011. {{ cite web}}: External link in |publisher= ( help)
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  • Delete In Wikipedia terms, a complete non-entity. No notability whatsoever. Forget the "sources" - I've appeared in my local paper several times (and nationally once or twice) and been contacted and interviewed by local radio, but only because I was good at doing my job and they wanted insights form professionals who were.....good at their job. Not outstanding. Just good and available. (But they didn't take my photo. Boo hoo.) So what? There is nothing in the article (or the sources) to suggest anything out of the ordinary. Emeraude ( talk) 23:18, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Comment – How is the person a "non-entity" in Wikipedia terms? What do you mean specifically about "forget the sources?" The availability of reliable sources is exactly what qualifies topics for inclusion in Wikipedia. Northamerica1000 (talk) 21:43, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
    • No, it's notabilty that qualifies topics for inclusion. Reliable sources are the evidence for what we include (whether of people or any other topic) and do not confer notability. I can provide all sorts of reliable sources about myself, from birth certificate to my part in the school nativity play, to my degree results, to my public appointments, to my work being quoted elesewhere, but none of that makes me notable. That has to be earned. Although the sources quoted back up what is said about the subject of this AfD, they do not, IMO, provide any evdence that he satisfies Wikipdia's criteria for notability. Emeraude ( talk) 11:15, 26 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Comment – Added another reliable source to the article:
— Northamerica1000 (talk) 04:01, 30 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. — Tom Morris ( talk) 17:29, 2 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Australian Pacing Gold

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Apparently non-notable horse racing organization. Prod was added early in the article's history, but then removed by the creator with the addition of text but no sources. I have not found multiple third-party reliable sources with significant coverage of this organization, despite searching for such. I also cannot find sources that back up claims made in article. Dana boomer ( talk) 03:14, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was redirect to ArcelorMittal. -- MuZemike 02:21, 4 January 2012 (UTC) reply

ArcelorMittal Dhamm Processing Pvt Ltd

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The article had no references and can be part of Arcelor Mittal main article Mukharjeeauthor ( talk) 03:50, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Redirection is an editorial decision, anyone who feels it would be appropriate can do so. Seraphimblade Talk to me 08:01, 3 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Alana Lee

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WP:NN musician, fails WP:BAND: g-hits are all promotional except for the opinion piece on scaddistric.com and starcasm (which is a complete puff piece). Record label ( 37 Records) is non-notable, hasn't charted, etc.

The first AFD, earlier this year resulted in the appropriate result: Delete and Redirect. This article should probably have been speedily redeleted as WP:CSD#G4 when it was recreated. (History under Alana_Lee_Hamilton) Toddst1 ( talk) 19:31, 16 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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I did as much searching as I could to see if I could find any useful sources to add for this article, but they don't seem to exist. That's a notability fail for me. > • ibiza042( talk)

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-- 190.19.89.60 ( talk) 15:13, 28 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. — Tom Morris ( talk) 17:28, 2 January 2012 (UTC) reply

NEWJERSEYNEWSROOM.COM

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Website does not meet WP:GNG. Tinton5 ( talk) 17:22, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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Delete per lack of properly sourced evidence of notability. Bearcat ( talk) 19:36, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Delete per GNG and WP:WEB. I don't see any references in independent sources in the article, and a quick Google search doesn't find any, either. Writ Keeper ⚇ ♔ 14:47, 30 December 2011 (UTC) reply


What about http://somervilletoday.com/news/new-jersey/ ? Njdemocrat ( talk) 01:37, 31 December 2011 (UTC) reply


This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because the subject is notable and the content is neutral and notable. This page should be retained as part of Wikipedia because the subject is clearly a real entity that can have a significant impact on society. New media dedicated to the collection and dissemination of objective information -- especially independent and professionally created news in this age of corporate dominated information -- deserves to be recognized. This website was established by former Star Ledger reporters who lost their jobs. It contains valid news about New Jersey and has potential to become a significant part of the state's culture. Njdemocrat ( talk) 14:37, 30 December 2011 (UTC) no original research is needed to extract the content Njdemocrat ( talk) 14:39, 30 December 2011 (UTC) reply

Wikipedia does not keep things based on whether they have the potential to become a significant part of the state's culture; we keep things based on whether or not they already are a significant part of the culture — which we determine based on the presence or absence of real, reliable sources about the topic, not based on individual user manifestos. Bearcat ( talk) 15:00, 2 January 2012 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. -- MuZemike 02:23, 4 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Stripey Zebras

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I'm having some difficulty understanding why we kept this in 2006 when it was previously debated. This is a band that was never signed, the summit of their fame seems to have been a namecheck in the garage bands section of NME, there are no reliable independent sources and never have been, and they never made it out of their home county of Essex. They played mainly in youth clubs, it seems, and never made it small let alone big. They were active for less than two years: they rose and sank apparently without trace. Guy ( Help!) 17:13, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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    • Some good, nay excellent, bands have played in youth clubs, even in Essex, and gone on to greater things. This isn't one of them. Delete.
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The result was keep. -- MuZemike 02:24, 4 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Lafrae Olivia Sci

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Non-notable musician. Does not meet WP:MUSIC and the sources are not reliable or do not establish notability. ItsZippy ( talk • contributions) 17:04, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

True, but none of the sources I have found seem to establish notability. I'll happily change my position if reliable sources which establish notability are presented. ItsZippy ( talk • contributions) 18:17, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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  • keep When I created this page, I had been aware of this musician for over 10 years (which I know doesn't matter as far as notability goes). Looking at WP:MUSIC, point 6 is the easiest to defend (member of two notable groups - Bumblefoot and Burnt Sugar), but she has also gotten coverage under 1 and, I think, 4 (though I haven't been able to locate much). She goes by several permutations of her name which makes finding sources - and what she's up to (for a fan) - sometimes difficult. PermanentVacay ( talk) 19:59, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
By Bumblefoot, do you mean this? Because he seems to be an independant artist who has had a few ensembles - he is probably notable, but the individual ensembles are not. As for Burnt Sugar, the article we have on it says the group has a fluid membership and as many as 40 have been in the group. I do not believe that being in such a group would establish notability for the individual. For criteria 1 and 4, could you provide such reliable sources for us? ItsZippy ( talk • contributions) 10:22, 27 December 2011 (UTC) reply
I didn't realize this was going to be an ongoing discussion requiring my input - I don't get to sit down at this site that often. Re: Bumblefoot, before Ron Thal took that as his name, it referred to the band - this was about 10 years ago when she was a full time member. I can't find references for this change, as his blog doesn't seem to be around, but if anyone else can find it I'd appreciate that (it should be in his main page too!). I've added a bunch of other references to the article as I have time to find them. Re: "could you provide such reliable sources for us?", I'm a bit confused - I thought wikipedia was a collaborative process. Who is the "us" you refer to, that apparently does not include myself? (I'm not sure I'll be able to respond to this in a timely matter but I will see it eventually. Feel free to also follow up on the talk page here or my talk page. Thanks.) PermanentVacay ( talk) 06:32, 31 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. This would also be eligible under G11 as promotion. Seraphimblade Talk to me 07:54, 3 January 2012 (UTC) reply

MARIONEXXES

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I cannot find sufficient non-trivial RS coverage of this band to suggest that it is notable. SPA author. Tagged for notability for over a year. Epeefleche ( talk) 20:09, 16 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. -- MuZemike 02:26, 4 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Abdullah Khan (writer)

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No evidence Khan has been subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works in reliable independent sources, or otherwise meets the criteria for WP:Notability. (The article's sole reference is one "about the author" sentence, which is both trivial and not independent.) Article flagged for notability since November 2007. Propose Delete. DGaw ( talk) 15:23, 8 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete as lacking in-depth coverage in reliable, independent third-party sources. Should such sources be integrated into the article, feel free to leave a note on my talk page and I'll take another look. Stuartyeates ( talk) 04:45, 10 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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  • Delete all sources cited are articles written by the subject and thus not independent. It's not a very unique name but I don't think there are any better sources out there. Hut 8.5 18:50, 3 January 2012 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 18:30, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Diego de la Cruz (soccer player)

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Contested PROD. Concern was Article does not provide reliable sources to show that the subject meets WP:NSPORTS. PROD was contested with a claim that the article's only source confirmed he had played in the Mexican Primera Division. This is false. The source confirms only that he has been signed by Cruz Azul, but not that he has played for them. Sir Sputnik ( talk) 16:07, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was delete. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 18:30, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Iyad Bwota

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Contested PROD. Concern was WP:N -- doesn't quite meet WP:NFOOTY as he doesn't appeared to have actually played in a game, from what little I've been able to glean from the couple available sources. [25], [26]. PROD was contested by the article's creator without providing a reason. Sir Sputnik ( talk) 15:41, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was keep. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 18:31, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Estelle Skidmore Doremus

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Notability not established. Only cites are obituary + a primary source related to a club.

  • Related AFDs:

Related AFDs:

Toddst1 ( talk) 14:33, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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  • Comment- Findagrave entry here, second plaque states Charter member National Society DAR; Charter officer 1892 & Regent, NYC DAR (1892-1894) (before the 1896 national establishment); was one of very few daughters still living when these organizations were established, the majority being descendants. This 'club' was chartered by the United States Congress and current chapters in Australia, Europe, & South America. Dru of Id ( talk) 00:29, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply

*Keep- Extensive revisions have been made and new sources added to demonstrate notability. Placepromo ( talk) 01:55, 27 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was redirect to All Time Low discography. -- MuZemike 02:35, 4 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Circles (All Time Low song)

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Song fails WP:GNG and WP:NSONGS. To be more precise, it has not received coverage in reliable sources or charted on significant music markets.

I'm also nominating the following articles which also fail WP:GNG and WP:NSONGS:

The Girl's a Straight-Up Hustler (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Coffee Shop Soundtrack (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Six Feet Under the Stars (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Dear Maria, Count Me In (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Poppin' Champagne (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Till I Go Home ( talk) 12:04, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was merge to Latin kings of Alba Longa. -- MuZemike 02:40, 4 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Kingdom of Alba Longa

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A naïve article, not separating fact from fiction. I marked this for speedy A10, as an inferior duplicate of Latin kings of Alba Longa, but it was challenged as "The article Alba Longa is about the ancient city of Alba Longa. The Kingdom of Alba Longa had its capital in the city of Alba Longa but spread to take over other cities. Just as the Roman Kingdom included more cities than just Rome, the Kingdom of Alba Longa included more than just Alba Longa.--R-41"

As I read Livy, which is the standard presentation of the legend, [34] there is no indication that in the legendary history its Kings ruled over more than that single city, including its immediately surrounding territory. DGG ( talk ) 19:01, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply

Map of central Italy with ancient city names during the early Roman era. The city of Alba Longa is shown in red beside Lake Albano (titled "Lacus Albanus" in the picture) as shown in the lower right corner of the square titled "C3". The Kingdom of Alba Longa included other cities, including Lavinium shown in square "B4". According to Etruscan and Roman legend, Romulus arrived at the territory that he proclaimed to be the new settlement of Rome, and formed the Roman Kingdom.
There are several sources included in the article that back up claims that it ruled over more cities than just Alba Longa. This source (Livy, Valerie M Warrior (ed). The History of Rome, Books 1-5. Indianapolis, Indiana, USA: Hackett Publishing Company, Inc., 2006. Pp. 8.) states that it ruled over Lavinium, this source (Andrea Carandini, Stephen Sartarelli. Rome: Day One. English edition. Princeton, New Jersey, USA: Princeton University Press, 2011. Pp. 33.) states that it ruled over Latium. According to legend the famous last King of Alba Longa, Romulus, arrived (then as King of Alba Longa) to the site where he established a new settlement, Rome, and became king of the Roman Kingdom. Second of all First it is against Wikipedia policy to assume an unwelcoming behaviour to users, that is demonstrated by the user DGG stating that it is a "naïve article, not separating fact from fiction", if there are problems these should be addressed first to the person who added them (in this case me, as I added the material) to seek a solution rather than denouncing it. It is true that legend is involved in Roman history, but historians so far have accepted the existence of figures such as Aeneas and Romulus, though they may question legends surrounding them.-- R-41 ( talk) 19:56, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Take a deep breath and relax - No one was saying anything about you personally. As someone unfamiliar with the material, I can't say that DGG's assessment is that far off the mark - but only as it relates to the article itself. Note that you have multiple statements of fact, but these are sourced to a book called "Worlds of Myth", which might imply (correctly or incorrectly) that the fact is mixing in with the fiction (or the myth). Another statement begins with "According to Legend...", and yet is presented as factual. Now, we do have Alba Longa, and I'm not clear on the difference between that article and this one - could you elaborate on why we would need both? UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 15:18, 19 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. -- MuZemike 02:41, 4 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Ori Allon

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This is not the subject of non-trivial coverage by multiple, independent third-party sources, a WP:BASIC requirement. Rather, he gets mention in coverage of companies, which may or may not satisfy WP:CORPDEPTH, but which do not inure to this subject. Even if this subject were to WP:INHERIT some notability from the coverage, it's worth noting that the coverage exists because his companies were acquired by Google and Twitter, mostly indicating notability for the buyers. This subject certainly doesn't inherit anything from Google or Twitter, and his activities otherwise don't seem notable as far as I can tell. JFHJr ( ㊟) 19:10, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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  • Strong Delete - Techcrunch is SPS, Msnicki [37]. Julpan is SPS. The whole second paragraph requires proof.

Agree with JFHJr, “...companies were acquired by Google and Twitter, mostly indicating notability for the buyers”, not for the non-notable Ori Allon. It fails WP:BASIC. It fails WP:GNG as sources may establish notability for the algorithm, definitely not for the subject himself. Liilllyyy ( talk) 16:17, 27 December 2011 (UTC)Liilllyyy reply

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The result was keep. — Tom Morris ( talk) 14:25, 31 December 2011 (UTC) reply

Agrabad Govt. Colony High School

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Non-notable school. silly billypiggy ¡SIGN NOW OR ELSE! 10:20, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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  • Keep - verifiable high school (I'll add a source) and a better written article than usual for such schools. Very large school - over 5,000 students. Nominated within 17 minutes of creation with no guidance to the author, which is unacceptable. Bangladeshi schools traditionally have a poor Internet presence and to avoid systemic bias time should be given for local sources to be researched. No reason to suppose that WP:GNG cannot be met. TerriersFan ( talk) 12:54, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Strong Keep: The school is notable in Bangladesh. It is one of the largest schools in Chittagong. While I haven't been a student of the school, I grew up within a stone's throw from the school and can attest to its notability. I am a bit curious about the content though ... the content needs to be checked for copyvio. -- Ragib ( talk) 17:06, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was no consensus. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 18:14, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Casus Luciferi

Casus Luciferi (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD)
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no independent notability shown for this album. lacks coverage in reliable sources. nothing satisfying WP:NALBUMS. duffbeerforme ( talk) 05:02, 10 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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This album is notable, but I doubt I will improve it during the next days. So please don’t delete it but redirect to the band article, similar to Rabid Death’s Curse. -- 217/ 83 20:30, 21 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was redirect to Toilet#Types of toilets after moved to Types of toilets. Content may be merged at editorial discretion. Regards, Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 18:15, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Different Toilets

Different Toilets (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD)
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All of the information is already included in the Toilet article. Tad Lincoln ( talk) 08:51, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

  • Keep or close or something. Maybe the nomination is supposed to mean that the information in this article is within the scope of Toilet. However, at present, the information is certainly not included there. Both articles are pretty well referenced and a merge would be helpful as was suggested at the articles themselves in November. Different Toilets does not seem a plausible search term but if material is merged attribution should be preserved. I suggest closing down this nomination in some way and hoping editors can cope with the situation without AfD involvement. Thincat ( talk) 16:57, 24 December 2011 (UTC
  • Merge to Toilet. There's no good reason for a separate article. Clarityfiend ( talk) 20:20, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
I was attempting to merge when I realized that, although it may not be in this format, the majority of this information can indeed be found in the Toilet article. Tad Lincoln ( talk) 02:36, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Much as i liked to read the article, the keep arguments do amount only to ILIKEIT., and no matter how many people say that here, it's not a policy based reason, It's not that often I agree with the nom, but his reasons for deletion are correct policy. DGG ( talk ) 05:23, 26 December 2011 (UTC) reply

Christopher Hitchens's critiques of public figures

Christopher Hitchens's critiques of public figures (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD)
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Wikipedia is not Wikiquote. This article essentially is a quote farm that collects a series of quotations from Christopher Hitchens berating various public figures, living and dead.

I looked, and the very long Wikiquote entry seems to have almost all of these already. Any that are missing might be added.

There isn't much analysis, discourse, or reaction concerning these quotations. Most of them just say that Hitchens had something bad to say about a public figure. Longer entries just say that he said so in several places. The only entry that comes close to containing encyclopedia information is the portion on Mother Teresa; since this was forked away from the main biographical article, portions of that could be unforked back.

As a stand alone article, this may also violate the undue weight principle by suggesting that Hitchens was just some kind of troll whose public career consisted of badmouthing people. Of this, I am less sure. Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 21:32, 16 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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  • Comment. FWIW, I didn't mean to call him a troll, but rather to point out the impression that a page devoted to his invective against specific people created. He wrote strong prose, he admired George Orwell, and he was on the side of plain English, and that's my side. The more serious issue is whether this belongs here or at Wikiquote. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 04:35, 18 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Delete This is a coatrack for attacks on people, many of whom are still living. It seems contrary to core policy and WP:NOTOPINION. Warden ( talk) 17:36, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply
    • WP:NOTOPINION applies to WP editors and not to the opinions (with very good justification in this case - in my opinion) of the people that we write about. -- Alan Liefting ( talk) - 19:51, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply
      • Wikipedia is not a place to publish Hitchens' opinions either. There are many such journalists who earn a living by expressing outrageous opinions — Jeremy Clarkson, Michael Moore, Rush Limbaugh, P. J. O'Rourke, &c. Their work is exaggerated for effect and is often satirical, tongue-in-cheek, polemical or just plain wrong. It is quite unreliable as factual comment and so should not be presented verbatim in this way. By publishing a collation of such writings as reading material rather than to illustrate the author's bio, we are infringing the author's copyright. This is contrary to the policy WP:IINFO which states "articles on works of non-fiction, including documentaries, research books and papers, religious texts, and the like, should contain more than a recap or summary of the works' contents.". Wikipedia is not Reader's Digest. Warden ( talk) 23:46, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Keep and clean up as per the recommendation by the nominator. It is a notable topic that can justify its own article. As already noted Hitchens is far from being a troll and reading the main article confirms this. -- Alan Liefting ( talk) - 19:51, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply
    • COI statement: I am a strong admirer of Hitchens work. 22:37, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
Don't worry. I'll keep an eye on you. ;-) - DePiep ( talk) 23:45, 22 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Keep after clean up. It is a charming intro to an opinionated but sharp mind. It reveals perhaps the need for a new Wiki-project "Wiki-memorials". Shrines which may be freely embellished by devotees, each bearing their favorite citations as votive offerings to the eternal spirit enshrined there. Am sure CH would oppose the religious tones of my quite seriously meant comment. The project would eliminate the need for NOR restriction. Idealist707 ( talk) 22:03, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. Aside from NPOV, the article is a WP:SOAP and WP:NOTADVOCATE can of worms; from what I see, there was no significant response to the critiques. The article can be summarized in the existing relevant section and all other quotations can be moved to Wikiquote. Brandmeister t 11:16, 18 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Delete, essentially per nom. As far as I'm aware, we don't do 'list of criticisms of public figures by X' for any other person on Wikipedia. And with good reason: as the nominator notes, this is basically the job for Wikiquote, not Wikipedia. Frankly, the very existence of this page raises issues of undue weight and NPOV: why single out Hitchens' criticisms in this way when we don't do that for anybody else? And, if we are going to do that, why does this article include the specific individuals it does? Hitchens criticised hundreds of people, and this article could be many times longer than it is; hence there's an unresolvable POV issue about who to include, which just supports the view that the article itself is a bad idea. Ultimately, this article is redundant to Christopher Hitchens's political views. A selective summary of his views on certain people could be included in that article, but there's really no need at all for a separate article on the subject. Robofish ( talk) 23:00, 19 December 2011 (UTC) reply
So OK, elsewhere we don't do such an overview. But since Hitchens andserious critiques did, it is an acceptable line of an article. For others, like generals, we do a list of battles &tc. That is NPOV too. - DePiep ( talk) 23:50, 22 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Keep This is a crucial piece of any coverage of Hitchens. There might be an argument for merging it into a single article on Hitchens, but if we did choose that, the content here is so significant that it would have to be preserved pretty much unchanged. The editorial structure of the encyclopedia though is clearer with this separate, as now. Andy Dingley ( talk) 12:54, 20 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Delete This is a list of opinions by an essayist, not an encyclopedia article. His bio and bibliography should describe what is contained in his published works, but we don't need to republish directly every argument the man ever made. Steven Walling •  talk 23:10, 20 December 2011 (UTC) reply
As I will describe below when !voting: his serial arguments with individuals, often personal, can be lined up in the encyclopedia. Agree, his line of arguments should be published elsewhere, not here (OR). - DePiep ( talk) 23:54, 22 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Keep The practice by some Wikipedians to scrub the site of viewpoints they disagree with is flat-out disgusting, and all too common. Hitchens' critiques are an important part of the human historical record, and more than worthy of being indexed, whether you agree with them or not. -- Phrost ( talk) 18:42, 21 December 2011 (UTC) reply
There is not much encyclopedicity in "Hitchens said/wrote so and so", especially when no factual evaluation of his claims is presented. Hitchens isn't some kind of superpundit who stands above all others, meriting a separate page on his critiques. Brandmeister t 23:33, 21 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Agree, Brandmeister. So if the thread through his arguments with a person is published & discussed elsewhere, that is a good reason such an argument be in the Wikipedia. - DePiep ( talk) 00:03, 23 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Comment. I'll cheerfully admit that I'm not a fan of Hitchens, although he was a quite quotable writer. I'm not even proposing that the quotations be removed from the project entirely. The only issue for me is whether this is really an encyclopedia article, or something that should be merged to his page at Wikiquote. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 23:16, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Delete For the same reason as Steven Walling - are we really expected to create separate articles listing the opinions of every journalist/writer? Look at his brother Peter Hitchens' article - his views have been condensed to a single article without the need for a separate one. Why not the same for the elder Hitchens? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saint91 ( talk • contribs) 21:13, 22 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Keep and tag to replace any OR with RS. In his career there are multiple threads with persons. These threads are not alway made explicit by himself or in his books & pieces. But when a serious critique/scholar/publisher points out that thread, that is enough RS (not OR) to merit a description here. E.g. (and missing here): his lines with Blair, Edward Said, Blumenthal [38]. - DePiep ( talk) 00:03, 23 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Delete . Long quote farm. Any relevant material may be included in the main biographical article. It would be absurd to have a series of articles on "[Insert political figure, media personality, or public intellectual here]'s critiques of public figures" when that could run into the hundreds or thousands. Best to consolidate all material. Neutrality talk 08:34, 23 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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  • Delete. I noticed this when first listed and have been keeping an eye on it, so it is time to make a decision. I am a strong fan of Hitchens, but there is no case for this article. Quotes go in Wikiquote. There may be a case for a few quotes to be in the article on him, but how do we decide which quotes? So, there is already a link to Wikiquote. Make sure that all the quotes in this article are there, but that is it. We are wikipedia not wikiquote. -- Bduke (Discussion) 10:57, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
This is rather more than mere "quotes". Andy Dingley ( talk) 11:56, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. I came on this page after reading the article about Hitchens, specifically looking for some informations on his public figures critiques, and was glad to see that a specific article was linked to such topic; I believe to be a very "average" wikipedia user, so it is very likely that what happened to me by chance would happen also to many other readers who are not aware of this deletion prosal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.222.109.78 ( talk) 12:34, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
As I said in my !vote to keep above: the topic is encyclopedic. His line of treating individual persons, throughout his career and publicly, is encyclopedic. All we need is RS not OR about that line. (note: good action to Relist it). - DePiep ( talk) 19:46, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Weak Keep I just gotta say, I hear all this talk about quotes, quotes, quotes. Just notice that if you delete all the quotes, you still have a pretty substantial article by Wikipedia standards. And yeah, there's a lot more to Hitchens than this but this definitely was one of the most noted parts of his work. -- Qwerty0 ( talk) 18:07, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. -- MuZemike 02:43, 4 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Mobb Deep (album)

Mobb Deep (album) (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD)
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Non-existing album. Wikipedia is no crystal bol. Night of the Big Wind talk 14:38, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply

  • Delete. If it hasn't been recorded yet it could never happen.-- Michig ( talk) 14:54, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Incubate or userfy. Yes, they've notified the hip hop media that they are planning a new album, and those media have duly noted it. But if for whatever reason it doesn't happen, I don't see that there is already enough substantial coverage to merit an article. On the other hand, it seems a good bet that it will be released in the next 3-6 months and, if so, a slam dunk that it will be notable, given their track record, hence my vote. -- Hobbes Goodyear ( talk) 15:25, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 18:12, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Jakie James Warren

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Non-notable person. Peerage and his famous godmother is not enough to make him personally notable, as notability is not inherited. Night of the Big Wind talk 14:50, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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I am hoping you will not delete this page, and I encourage other contributors. This person is a celebrity/public figure. His connections with Prince Harry and the Princesses of York, his businesses in London & Royal Escot, and his association with the property where a hit TV show is filmed all make him worthy of note. Additionally, he is something of a hearthrob with a large fan following. I'm sure many people will look to this page for tidbits about him. Uspolista ( talk) 03:46, 20 December 2011 (UTC) Copied from talkpage article by Night of the Big Wind reply

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  • Delete No personal notability, simply known by association with others. Uspolista rather gives the game away: "His connections with...", "his association with ..." "he is something of a hearthrob" do not justify an article made up of "tidbits". Emeraude ( talk) 10:12, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. When a sizable portion of a search brings up links to the AfD and not much else, it's safe to say that you probably don't pass notability guidelines. I wasn't able to find anything reliable that mentioned him that wasn't linked back to the AfD or a blog. Tokyogirl79 ( talk) 15:58, 24 December 2011 (UTC)tokyogirl79 reply
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The result was keep due to media sources found which make the article topic meet WP:N and WP:V. Please make use of them in the article ASAP or the article may be nominated for deletion again. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 05:02, 4 January 2012 (UTC) reply

South African National Schools Moot Court Competition

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Non-notable event. No wide coverage on the internet (for what that is worth relating to South Afrika). Night of the Big Wind talk 15:01, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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  • Keep The sources covering the event are notable, preeminent and diverse with due regard that the inaugural event was held in 2011. A selection of some of the sources:

South African governmental departments:

South African statutory bodies:

Public universities:

National Newspapers:

Local Newspapers:

Online Newspapers:

Legal newspapers:

Legal journals:

Ngo's:

It should be noted that locally the event is referred to as the National Schools Moot Court Competition (the "South African" part being omitted) and several sources are omitted when searching for "South African National Schools Moot Court Competition". Furthermore the event is officially supported by the South African government and several statutory bodies. Purple Duke ( talk) 16:16, 20 December 2011 (UTC) reply

Even without "South Africa" there are less then 10.000 internet hits. But without facebook, linkedin, wikipedia (and clones), youtube, yelp, myspace, twitter, and vimeo is looses 75% of its hits. Sorry, but the competition has to grow a bit more. Night of the Big Wind talk 17:06, 20 December 2011 (UTC) reply
I believe the presumption in favour of notability as per Wikipedia:Notability applies to the topic and that said presumption is not derogated from merely because of a lack of hits. Sources "are not required to be available online, and they are not required to be in English" [1]. Wide coverage on the internet does therefore not seem to be a requirement. The sources supra and several not annotated reflect a neutral point of view, are credible and provide sufficient detail for a comprehensive article.
This state endorsed moot court competition, judged by Constitutional Court Judges (the highest court in South Africa for constitutional matters in a country where the constitution is the supreme law), is indeed in its infancy but the lesser degree of proliferation of online publications in South Africa should be noted and if the number of hits are indicative of a "non-notable event" (which from my understanding Wikipedia:Notability is not a requirement) then the online presence should be compared to a similar type of event originating from a country with a similar socio-economic environment and internet penetration and not against an arbitrary number of hits. In said circumstances the approximate 2500 hits then seem adequate for now. Purple Duke ( talk) 19:09, 20 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Based on Wikipedia:Notability (events), I would asked for more evidence of notability in the article. And please be aware that sources like Twitter and Facebook are not accepted as reliable sources. Night of the Big Wind talk 19:29, 20 December 2011 (UTC) reply
From my understanding the topic is not an "event" ( Wiktionary:Event) as per Wikipedia:Notability (events), and the general Wikipedia:Notability applies. I refer to my argument supra. No sources like Twitter and Facebook have been consulted or referenced, see the extract of reliable sources supra. The 2500 refers to the 25% of 10.000 internet hits not facebook, linkedin, wikipedia (and clones), youtube, yelp, myspace, twitter, and vimeo as calculated by you supra. Purple Duke ( talk) 19:44, 20 December 2011 (UTC) reply
The premise of the request for deletion is: (my emphasis)
"Non-notable event. No wide coverage on the internet (for what that is worth relating to South [sic] Afrika)."
Wikipedia:Notability states: (my emphasis)
'"Sources",[2] for notability purposes, should be secondary sources, as those provide the most objective evidence of notability. The number and nature of reliable sources needed varies depending on the depth of coverage and quality of the sources. Multiple sources are generally expected. Sources are not required to be available online, and they are not required to be in English. Multiple publications from the same author or organization are usually regarded as a single source for the purposes of establishing notability.'
Please provide the context and meaning of the Wikipedia policy. Purple Duke ( talk) 20:09, 20 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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  • I would be all for keeping this article - there are, after all, similar competitions held in other countries including the UK. A similar example is the National High School Mock Trial Championship in the US, which has an article. However, I'm always dubious when I see something described as "annual" event "established in 2011". However, I would add this comment:. Don't judge this by the number of Google hits - size isn't everything, it's the quality that counts. Emeraude ( talk) 10:23, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Link to the invitation of the 2nd National Schools Moot Court Competition - March and April 2012 on the South African Department of Basic Education website and information regarding the second event from the University of Pretoria. Purple Duke ( talk) 15:54, 26 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was keep. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 18:11, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Helfensteller, Hirsch & Watson

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Architectural firm. Article states that "a number of their works are listed in the US National Register of Historic Places" which, I don't think, is enough to indicate notability by itself. I searched and found lots of articles where they are mentioned trivially as the architectural firm attached to a particular project, but no independent coverage of the firm as an individual entity. If this is deleted, the redirect at Hirsch and Watson Helfensteller should go too. Livit⇑ Eh?/ What? 15:42, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply

  • Keep. As the article documented already within its first 10 minutes of existence before the AFD nom, the firm designed not one or two, but 12 different notable buildings listed on the National Register, each notable enough for its own wikipedia article. With two references already. There should be a strong presumption that the firm will be notable. -- do ncr am 16:05, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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  • Userfy until such time as the article creator can supply some substantive content about this architecture firm. As Doncram states, the NRHP listings establish a presumption that the firm is notable per WP:N, but the current content about trivia like the misspellings of "Helfensteller" is insufficient for an encyclopedia article. -- Orlady ( talk) 17:23, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Nom-Comment I'm not going to wiki-lawyer this to death, but I anticipated the notability arguments, but on reflection, I don't think I was clear enough in my nomination. Yes, the firm has worked on many famous and historically important projects. But Notability is not Inherited. Those projects and historical sites may (or may not) be notable on their own merits, but the fact that the project or site is notable, does not make the architectural firm that headed the project notable. If anyone can find one non-trivial mention in a reliable source that covers the firm and not a project the firm headed then I'll withdraw this AFD and go away. But "They worked on notable projects, so they are notable" is not a valid argument. I've said my piece and I'll crawl back into my wiki-hole now. Livit⇑ Eh?/ What? 18:14, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Comment - Perhaps I should clarify my comment about a "presumption". Because multiple works by this firm are listed on the National Register, I presume that this firm is sufficiently documented in the National Register documents that it will be established as notable at some time in the future when Doncram has obtained and read the National Register materials and writes up what he has learned about the firm. Until such time, its notability is not established and the page does not belong in article space. Due to the likelihood that the firm's notability can be established in the future, I think it's acceptable to allow Doncram to maintain the page in user space. -- Orlady ( talk) 19:41, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply
I have no problem with userfy - as long as it doesn't get moved back into article space until the firm has independent coverage. Livit⇑ Eh?/ What? 20:33, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Userfy - I have several concerns... 1) - there is the need for Secondary sources. The NRHP itself would be a PRIMARY source for the fact that an architect or firm designed buildings that are listed by the NRHP. We are not supposed to use primary sources to establish notability. What is needed is a secondary source (say an article in an architecture magazine, or a book on architectural history) that notes that the firm designed all these notable buildings. Do we have such a source? 2) - we need to be careful when it comes to claims that "the firm is mentioned in the NRHP documentation."... in many cases the mention is nothing more than a passing reference. The building may be listed for reasons that have nothing to do with the architect. For example, the building may be listed on the NRHP because of its association with a particular famous person (such as being the person's birth place). If this is the case, the fact that a particular architect or firm designed it is really nothing more than trivia... or at best, background information. Again, what is needed are some secondary source that note the connection between the building and the architect, and discuss it in some depth... enough to make it clear that the connection is considered important. All this said... I absolutely agree that there is a strong potential for an article in this specific case. An architectural firm that designed 12 historic buildings should be mentioned in lots and lots of secondary sources that can be used to establish its notability. But... we can not assume that this is the case. The article should stay in user space until some of those likely sources are actually found and added. Blueboar ( talk) 03:08, 18 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Userfy per Orlady. What we need to do is research architectural history and see if this firm is notable within that context. The NRHP nominations for the properties, if available, can shed some light on whether the properties were nominated for their architecture or historic personages or events associated with them. Certainly the fact that so many of their buildings have been listed suggests there might be some notability there, but we need specifics beyond "X number of buildings listed on the National Register of Historic Places". Daniel Case ( talk) 02:46, 18 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Comment I don't see the WP:NOTINHERITED as working in this case. It is clear in the literal cases, that Person X being notable does not make the children of person X notable. Person X was notable for certain things, which usually have nothing to do with their children, parents, siblings, or casual friends. The situation is different with a notable building. It is often (but not invariably) notable because it is architecturally interesting. The architect or firm is the proximate cause of that notability, not merely related in some irrelevant fashion. Would we declare that David is notable, but Michelangelo not? Would we declare that The Starry Night is notable, but argue that Vincent van Gogh is not? I'm not arguing for an automatic, inflexible rule, but a general presumption seems warranted. On the merits, I support Orlady's suggestion to userfy-- SPhilbrick (Talk) 15:26, 18 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Comment: I agree with SPhilbrick. Broadly paraphrasing the WP:NOTINHERITED, items associated with notable subjects do not inherit notability simply because of the association. In this case, however, we're talking something different. Most or all of the Helfensteller, Hirsch & Watson buildings are on the NRHP for architectural criteria (for those unfamiliar, structures can be listed on the Register for one or more of multiple reasons, "architectural criteria" being one of them). That means that the architectural firm created the very thing that makes these structures notable to begin with. That's a far cry from mere association. Andrew Jameson ( talk) 19:49, 18 December 2011 (UTC) reply
This is why we need to userfy and not delete outright. I see this as being akin to the "restaurant" example at WP:NOTE... only in reverse. Unless it can be established that the buildings are primarily notable for their architecture, the architects should not inherit notability from the building. If that can be established through reliable sources, then the situation changes. Blueboar ( talk) 16:00, 19 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Sorry, I'm not finding the restaurant example you mention at WP:NOTE; could you please steer us to it? Thanks. Ammodramus ( talk) 21:49, 19 December 2011 (UTC) reply
My error... I got my notability guidelines mixed up... the example is at Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies) (specifically: Wikipedia:ORG#No inherited notability) Blueboar ( talk) 01:32, 20 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. First, I'm afraid that I can't agree with Sphilbrick's and Andrew Jameson's argument. The architectural notability of a structure doesn't necessarily translate into notability for the architect. For example, properties might be listed under the "architecture" area of significance because they're surviving examples of a type or style that was once widespread; the architect's contribution might have been mere hackwork, of a sort done by scores of other architects at the time. Second, a passage in WP:SOURCESEARCH states, "Notability requires the presence of in-depth and significant treatment of a subject..." I assume that the editor who created the article wouldn't have done so had he/she not been strongly interested in the subject, and devoted considerable research time to it. The fact that all this research didn't turn up a source attesting to the notability of the firm seems to create a fairly strong presumption of non-notability. Ammodramus ( talk) 22:56, 18 December 2011 (UTC) reply
    • We may be closer than you think. I agree that the oldest surviving example of an architectural style may be notable, even thought the architect involved may not be, but I think that is an exception, rather than common. I tried to address that with "not ... an automatic, inflexible rule, but a general presumption", assuming that we would start with the presumption that the architect was notable, but could override that with consensus, based upon arguments you suggest. However, I don't see any such arguments presented in this case, so not following the "delete" recommendation. Lack of references will ultimately doom this article, but I have no way of being sure that no such references will ever be found, this suggests userfication in this case, where it seems plausible that such documents may exist somewhere.-- SPhilbrick (Talk) 14:59, 19 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Keep First, in this particular case, I think the wide use of their standard designs is a suitable criterion to showe their notability. And the NHRP is a secondary source. It is prepared by historians on the basis of primary documents. They're as much secondary work as any other interpretative work by historians. But more generally, what are architects notable for, if not for designing notable buildings? When there's an historic building, for whatever reason, the architects' name will of course be part of the article. People should be able to link from that to a description of their career. Perfectly natural encyclopedic question once you're reading about the building: what did they do before and after? The proper use of NOT INHERITED is that not all the works of a notable architect will be notable, except for the case of famous architects --most notable architects will have done some trivial work among the important projects=. I see I'm a minority opinion , but that is no reason not to give it, because a minority view sometimes gets adopted sooner or later. I continue to maintain the general proposition that criteria for notability should be categorical when such a criterion is applicable, so we do not have to debate the notability of each individual case. If it leads to a few articles on subjects of borderline notability , this harms the encyclopedia less than the time spent in the discussions, time spent quibbling when we ought to be writing about all the truly notable ones we do not yet have. DGG ( talk ) 06:25, 19 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Yes! -- do ncr am 20:23, 28 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Comment There is some general consensus above that the firm is in fact notable, that most agree that documents do exist that would satisfy everyone, although specific documentation has not yet been found to satisfy everyone yet. Then, tag it with "stub" or "expand" or "refimprove". It's likely that a St. Louis area historical society person, or a librarian, or someone out there with the right books and clippings files and access to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch's archives will add further to the article, if the article exists. If the article is "userfied", that won't happen. I don't want it; it doesn't belong to me. And, the deletion record, plus bureaucratic enforcement of a no-article status quo, would most likely confound and frustrate the good efforts of any St. Louis area new editor who actually wanted to try to start from scratch. Why not let the person start from a pretty good effort that provides nice links to 12 NRHP-listed works by the firm, plus links to Moolah Temple and the theatre article, and which already provides some good context. It could be better yes, and it eventually will be. -- do ncr am 16:46, 19 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • I'm afraid that to me, this argument sounds a lot like: "I'm sure that X is notable, although I can't be bothered to research it myself; but if we put an article out there, sooner or later somebody else will do the work."
First, this seems to be going about things backward. In WP:YFA, we're told to gather sources and establish notability before we ever launch an article. Here, however, the plan seems to be: post an article based on a general presumption of notability, and trust that someone, sometime, will make the effort to demonstrate that the subject actually is notable.
Second, I don't share my fellow editor's optimism about the future improvement of the article. Wikipedia has an abundance of e m b a r r a s s i n g l y m i n i m a l s u b s t u b s about NRHP sites that were created as two-sentence one-reference stubs over a year ago, and that remain two-sentence one-reference stubs to this day. I'm not at all sanguine about the intervention of the hypothetical St. Louis historian, and I think we must proceed on the assumption that the article will go unimproved for a long, long time after its posting. If we allow an article to go up that doesn't satisfy WP:NRVE today, it doesn't seem likely that someone will fix it in the reasonably near future. Ammodramus ( talk) 21:57, 19 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Ammodramus, thank you for caring. I hear your concern for the NRHP articles, several thousand of which I agree are pretty crummy. One way that many of them are crummy is that the writer had no clue what was the association of a listed person or firm. Several hundred existing Wikipedia articles probably falsely assert (explicitly, or by infobox "architect=" assertion) that an associated person or firm is an architect, when in fact the named person or firm is a builder or engineer instead. Also many hundred falsely assert that a building was built in a given year, when in fact that was a year of other significance. And there are other problems in the one- or two-sentence NRHP articles. But your taking a stand against this architect article is misplaced. Removal of the article would impoverish 12 NRHP articles and 2 other articles that link here now. If the current architect article is removed, what then for the 14 linking articles? I suppose one could basically copy the entire current architect article into each one of those, to provide some context for the readers of those articles. Or construct a Navbox with information about the other buildings designed by the same architect. It seems best to let there be an architect article which answers the question of who the hell is "Helfensteller, Hirsch & Watson" and what else have they done, rather than forcing know-nothing ignorance into each of the 14 articles that are somewhat informed currently by the existing article. I can't promise, of course, that this particular architect article will get better developed by a local historian or librarian coming forward. But, odds are a lot better that we'll get to a decent article a year from now, if we have this one as a pretty good start. At the moment, it fully establishes that the firm is an architectural firm, rather than a building contractor or an engineering firm. And it provides convenient navigation. I think it is all right, more than all right, to leave this in an article, rather than to force duplicative copying of the information into 14 articles, in order to provide appropriate context in each of them separately.
Creating articles for the architects, engineers, and builders associated with many NRHP sites is a way forward to improve the NRHP articles, which is what you want. FWIW, there are now 364 articles in Category:NRHP architects, 48 articles in Category:NRHP builders, 8 articles in Category:NRHP engineers. -- do ncr am 00:57, 20 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Doncram... in a comment above you said "There is some general consensus above that the firm is in fact notable"... I disagree. I think there is a general consensus that the firm is likely to be notable... I would even go so far as to say there is a consensus that it probably is notable. But "probably" does not equate to "is". To move from probably to is, you need reliable secondary sources that discuss the firm (and do so in some depth - a passing mention on the NRHP database, or in a nomination document is not enough). Blueboar ( talk) 01:42, 20 December 2011 (UTC) reply
"To move from probably to is, you need reliable secondary sources that discuss the firm (and do so in some depth - a passing mention on the NRHP database, or in a nomination document is not enough)"—And we've now come full circle back to the statement that I made in the original nom... Livit⇑ Eh?/ What? 13:18, 20 December 2011 (UTC) reply
I've added some more. Livitup, no offense, but your view would support putting a "stub" tag in the article (already present), calling for further expansion, and does not support removing the article from the wikipedia altogether. -- do ncr am 19:56, 28 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Thanks. -- do ncr am 20:23, 28 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 05:12, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Thanks, a voice of reason. -- do ncr am 19:56, 28 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Why not turn it into a category then? Purpleback pack 89≈≈≈≈ 20:34, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
To Purplebackpack89, there's a good discussion of how categories and lists are complementary at wp:CLT, including admonishment that some duplication of function is not a valid argument for deletion of one. And, in particular here, if the article were deleted, there would be no location where complete info on the architects is given, though one could navigate by category among the articles, each containing a redlink to the architect. It would beg for creation of a central architect article. -- do ncr am 19:56, 28 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Keep per Carrite and others. Clearly a notable architectural firm based on its accomplishments of record. bd2412 T 01:02, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Keep. Please note I have reformatted and rearranged the existing text in the article (no new text was added to the body). Notability has been established by the existence of peer reviews alone: non-notable architectural firms do not get any coverage. My name is Mercy11 ( talk) 01:46, 29 December 2011 (UTC), and I approve this message. reply
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The result was speedily deleted by Antandrus. 86.44.31.213 ( talk) 14:12, 28 December 2011 (UTC) reply

Jion de Jordan

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This is the rationale I gave for the PROD, which was removed by an anonymous user: "Does not appear in the list of the Bibliografia elettronica dei Trovatori, and so seems most likely to be a hoax." There is not a single Wikipedia-independent reference on the internet to any person with this name, nor is there a single reference to any of the supposed songs he wrote. Srnec ( talk) 04:56, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was keep. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 18:09, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Benjamin Piatt Runkle

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Non-notable person. Only possible claim to notability is being a founding member of a fraternity. Without satisfying WP:N's requirement of having multiple independent reliable sources, that isn't enough--and slavering fraternity sources don't satisfy that at all. GrapedApe ( talk) 13:07, 15 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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  • Delete. Can't see great evidence of notability. Being a founder member of an organisation isn't usually enough and he was one rank below that usually considered automatically notable for military officers. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 16:19, 15 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Keep -- I thought that being a colonel was notable. Appointment as a brevet colonel implies that he was considered significant: I undderstan dthis to be a measn of accelerated promotion. There are also hints of notability in his ecclesiastical career, but it is so briefly described that it is difficult to tell. Peterkingiron ( talk) 17:00, 15 December 2011 (UTC) reply
    • No, a general officer is considered notable, a colonel isn't. "Brevet" just means he was acting above his actual substantive rank - the vast majority of colonels (and generals) in the Civil War were since the army expanded so rapidly. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 17:57, 15 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Speedy Keep- Findagrave entry here shows rank as Major General, meets WikiProject Military history/Notability guide #3: 'Held a rank considered to be a flag, general or air officer, or their historical equivalents; or', and which is already cited in the only reference. Dru of Id ( talk) 17:40, 15 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Further, meant include this above: shows grave marker (middle photo) Brevet Major General Volunteers 1865. Dru of Id ( talk) 17:54, 15 December 2011 (UTC) reply
I updated the article with actual ranks — he held ranks in both the volunteer and regular armies and had brevet ranks in both. There are several other things notable about this guy. He was court-martialed and cashiered after charges of embezzlement but was reinstated by an executive order of President Rutherford B. Hayes. He also served as Chief Superintendent of the Freedmen's Bureau for Memphis, TN and later as Chief Superintendent of Freedmen's Affairs, State of Kentucky. He later won a case heard by the US Supreme Court: RUNKLE v. US in 1887. Mojoworker ( talk) 02:42, 17 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. (Struck-through; see my Keep below) MILHIST notability suggests that if one of the criterion were met then the article subject would have adequate coverage in reliable sources which is missing here. His post war awards shouldn't be used as a rule of significance. Findagrave isn't a reliable source. From WP:SOLDIER, "In general, an individual is presumed to be notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple verifiable independent, reliable sources. In particular, an individual will almost always have sufficient coverage to qualify if they..." ..and then it goes on to state that having rank would qualify. I would like to see more on the sources end. From a previous version of this article it states he was "Breveted Colonel, Brigadier General and Major General of Volunteers, November 9, 1865, for "meritorious services."" All of that in one day, six months after the war was over. It was purely honorary.
    ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 20:22, 16 December 2011 (UTC) reply
I'm not convinced it was purely honorary. It was after the war, but he was still in the army. In this reference that I added to the article, he is repeatedly referred to as Brigadier General Runkle in period citations. Mojoworker ( talk) 21:57, 22 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - difficult case this, but it appears the rank that would have made him notable was purely honourary and after-the-fact. Buckshot06 (talk) 16:24, 20 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Comment. I would suggest that if someone was brevetted major general, even at the end of the war, for meritorious services, that would suggest a certain amount of notability. It does make him stand out from the crowd (many officers ended the war as colonels and were not brevetted to general officer rank, after all). -- Necrothesp ( talk) 16:37, 20 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Comment. I'm not sure why the editors opining for delete are assessing Runkle's notability solely on his military rank. I've added a fair amount of additional information to the article, so you may want to reassess. As I said, he was also Chief Superintendent of Freedmen's Affairs for the State of Kentucky and was involved with the Supreme Court case Runkle v. United States. Mojoworker ( talk) 13:03, 22 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Recommendation. I would suggest relisting and letting it run for another cycle. The article has been improved mostly by Mojoworker and this is on the right track as he has been adding sources. I'd suggest giving this more time.
    ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 16:27, 23 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Bushranger One ping only 03:46, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

Strong keep. A very notable figure in American history. Well sourced. Thats all. Tinton5 ( talk) 17:25, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

  • Keep for multiple reasons advanced above, plus one that's not much mentioned — the Supreme Court case. Legal scholars publish about figures that play important parts in Supreme Court cases, so being the primary party on one side of a case is a strong indication of notability. Nobody would have heard of Norma McCorvey if she hadn't been in a similar situation. Nyttend ( talk) 14:43, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. I would consider his military history to place him as marginal on the notability scale but his involvement in the Supreme Court case lends enough notability to affirm as a Keep.
    ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 20:50, 26 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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The result was delete. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 18:08, 1 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Matru ki Bijlee ka Mandola

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Film has not begun filming and has not received significant coverage. It is WP:TOOSOON for an article on this film. BOVINEBOY 2008 02:11, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

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The result was keep. The arugments for retention seem to outweigh the arguments for deletion, and there is a rough consensus for retention. -- MuZemike 02:46, 4 January 2012 (UTC) reply

Marc Esserman

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Not notable as a chess player Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 00:18, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply

  • Keep Featured in major newspapers in 2009, 2010, and 2011 with upset victories over established GMs and one super-GM. Articles written by highly established GM-titled chess writers. puzzician 00:56, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Strong Keep Notability standards for chess players are not firmly established on Wikipedia, and, if any IMs are included at all, Esserman should be kept. His games have been uniquely covered by dozens of international media sources because of their aggression, novelties, rare openings, and tactics. Media attention is the most basic indication of notability, and this article is quite well-sourced. Tfine80 ( talk) 17:47, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Not notable for now. Most IMs have defeated the odd GM at some time or other, but attainment of only the lesser IM title demonstrates that the article's subject has some way to go to being considered a leading or notable chess player. It would therefore be necessary that he excels in some other field or aspect of chess, such as coaching or writing, which is not the case. Neither has there been a standout tournament victory that I could find - and presumably there is no national title, or a title from the world youth or world junior championships. This is the way that we have assessed all other nominee articles for non-GMs playing in the modern era. It should also be noted that there are those editors who even feel that the GM title does not confer enough notability, such is the ease with which the title is gained now, compared with fifty years ago. If I briefly think of other IMs on Wikipedia, I can only recall J Watson (noted writer), Nadanian (noted coach), Dvoretsky (noted writer/coach) etc. Of course if Esserman's play is as 'special' as described above, then he will qualify as a GM in double quick time and may then become an excellent candidate for an article. Brittle heaven ( talk) 22:57, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Are these standards written down? There seems to be a massive number of IMs and NMs in Wikipedia, most with no comparable games discussed in international media. This seems suspiciously like intentional targeting. Why focus on Esserman? In addition, IM is a major title; I don't see why Wikipedia cannot have articles on IMs. There is no limit to the number of articles here, so why worry? Tfine80 ( talk) 23:57, 24 December 2011 (UTC) reply
They have been discussed in many AfDs and on the Chess project talk page, but not formally written down. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 00:03, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Then I would propose deferring a decision until standards are established with a degree of consensus. Otherwise, these battles will be arbitrary fights, with people given incentive to target other players for personal reasons. Esserman should certainly be one of the last IMs to be removed because of his general notability within the U.S. chess world and the wide international media coverage of his games. Tfine80 ( talk) 00:27, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
The topic of setting standards came up again nearly 2 months ago ( Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Chess#Chess notability) but nothing happened. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 01:42, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Instead of "briefly thinking" of other IMs on Wikipedia, why not do some actual searching (with the aid of a computer? :-) Why this page should be deleted while http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Rendle should be left is beyond any logic to me. Puzzician ( talk) 04:02, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Puzzician, do you have any wp:coi with this article? Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 17:05, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Bubba, you are the one who started this aggressive attempt to delete a well-sourced article. Shouldn't the suspicion and burden of proof be on you regarding Conflict of Interest? You still haven't explained why it would be appropriate to delete Esserman but not every other IM/FM/WIM/NM/WFM/WGM at the same time. Tfine80 ( talk) 17:34, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Well, PROD them or put them up for AfD. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 17:49, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
I don't want to delete them! This is absurd. The point is that for some reason you are targeting this article with an arbitrary policy that is not consented upon or implemented evenly in the Wiki. Tfine80 ( talk) 17:53, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Then go back and check my history of !voting in AfDs of minor chess players. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 18:00, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
Here's one example of an article -- of several -- where I see an inconsistency in your stance. You have frequently edited the article for Abby Marshall, a young WFM who is not even yet a WIM. How could you possibly align this with your attempt to delete Esserman? Tfine80 ( talk) 18:10, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
So far, I have a) added structure and convention to the article b) added important facts c) removed non-neutral language d) cleaned up grammar and e) sourced everything thoroughly f) referenced a policy inconsistency here that has gone unanswered. I value any opinions based on substantive criticisms of the work and its adherence to wp:POLICY. I advocate only for the quality of editing. As far as voting, I think we need more opinions than those of just editors of this article and those whose AfD standard falls outside the de-facto consensus for chess player inclusion. Puzzician ( talk) 19:11, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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Bubba73 
You talkin' to me? 
17:49, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
reply
Doesn't this just establish Esserman's notability? That lots of chess people are motivated to edit this article? Would it be worse if it was clearly just written by one person as a vanity article? By the way, Turnbull is very well known in Cambridge and is a fixture there who has been covered in lots of newspapers. If you lived there, you wouldn't even think of deleting him. Tfine80 ( talk) 17:59, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
No, it makes it very suspicious that there is a conflict of interest. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 18:01, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply
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  1. ^ Wikipedia:Notability
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