Seems
Tenebris in Latin means darkness. Weird. –
Sca (
talk) 17:28, 1 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Alas we never got
Pogo in the UK. "Even if posting was not the very close consensus, the discussion is getting unproductive to the level that it is better to leave it as it is and close this discussion." I can appreciate the Tone of that close.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 17:34, 1 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I don't have much of a notion of his general demeanor. Censorious? –
Sca (
talk) 17:39, 1 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I've always found him a fair closer. I like to start off with unproductive discussion, so it never has to deteriorate.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 17:44, 1 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Speaking of int'l relations, ever seen Window to Paris? Hilarious. You can access it (with Eng subs)
here, if YouTube will let you. –
Sca (
talk) 20:12, 1 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Never seen that. Thanks for the link!
Martinevans123 (
talk) 20:16, 1 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Let me know if it works for you. (Good to have a bottle of
водка at hand while watching.) –
Sca (
talk) 20:29, 1 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Only in the beginning. There are many bright/funny episodes in it. But I wonder why the subs don't work for in the UK? (The Wiki article on the film is pathetically thin.) –
Sca (
talk) 16:53, 2 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I expect so. It looks funny. I can get Русские субтитры, but not English! So I am confined to my laptop, it seems. We'll have to have a go at Window to Paris.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 17:02, 2 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Hey, I'm emailing you a fairly detailed (English!) review that you might use to guide you through the movie – which BTW is available
here in its original Russian form. –
Sca (
talk) 17:23, 2 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Guess I must have oversold Window. –
Sca (
talk) 17:13, 4 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Martin,
happy 2022, - I had no time yet for resolutions, but
friendship is the motto, and you are one of my friends here, with whom I can cry and laugh. Too many are missed, but you are there! --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 05:58, 3 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you Gerda. Oh yes, I'm a right old
Wiki Queen, I am.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 10:59, 3 January 2022 (UTC) .... except it's more like
this, I guess.reply
2022 began happily with vacation. I uploaded images but stopped at 22 January - click on songs. 30 January means 10 years of
Precious. It's also the birthday of
a friend, - I'm so happy I mentioned his DYK on his 90th birthday when he was still alive. I have a great singer on DYK whom I heard,
Elena Guseva, and wait for a Recent death appearance of
Georg Christoph Biller whom I saw in action. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 20:56, 30 January 2022 (UTC)reply
update:
we have now Guseva pictured, Biller pictured better (but still not on the Main page), and one more day of my pics - I had the miracle on the Main page the other day, but she brought not as many clicks as expected,
St. Martin, Moosach, - should have said that Benedict XVI began his career there, but found too late. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 17:30, 31 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Short descs
I searched, and annoyingly I can't find the previous discussion. I'd like some consensus/MOS guidance on this personally so I've started a new discussion
here.
Popcornfud (
talk) 00:01, 8 January 2022 (UTC)reply
On 9 January 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Jack Dromey, which you nominated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the
candidates page.
Black Kite (talk) 11:58, 9 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I want to know if the article
SpaceX Starship that I write is too pro-
Elon Musk or not. Since you are a regular at dealing with these people on his talk page, I think you are an expert at this. What do you think about the rocket's article? Should I tone it down?
CactiStaccingCrane (
talk) 12:43, 11 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Hello
CactiStaccingCrane. I will try and take a look. But I am certainly not an exert on that page. I have found that the best way to "deal with those people" is to avoid them!
Martinevans123 (
talk) 13:16, 11 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I agree as well. Anyways, thanks for your comments in advance!
CactiStaccingCrane (
talk) 13:18, 11 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Reply on relevant talk page
I have replied to your question on the talk page regarding "randy Armcandy". Cheers!
89.8.82.25 (
talk) 19:35, 13 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I explicitly told you not to continue posting about that on my talk page. You ignored me, so I removed your comment, and now I telling you not to post on my talk page at all, unless it is required by Wikipedia rules.
Meters (
talk) 23:40, 15 January 2022 (UTC)reply
(
talk page stalker) OMG my granny (I would say "Of Blessed Memory" but, ah, no.) used to quote
that frakkin' thing incessantly. It was not uplifting. She was not a happy woman. As poems go it is sadly lacking in daffodils. Thank you very much for sending me into a bout of PTSD. Gah.
DBaK (
talk) 22:23, 16 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I think we all owe " Parliamentary Private Cake Secretary"
Conor Burns a huge vote of thanks:
[9].
Martinevans123 (
talk) 16:55, 26 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Suzy Yvette Carte-Blanche: (dressed as French maid): "Watch art, Meester Pfeffel, zey are on to you!!"
Mr Plod:* (waving
tiny truncheon): "'ello, 'ello, 'ello! What's all this mularkey, then? Not so fast, Your Highness, we'd like to see you
down at the station!!"
And so the much-heralded "
Sue Gray update". Hardly the earth-shattering wrecking ball we were all anticipating. And in reply that pitiful
broken record performance from the despatch box..... not only did Sir Keir get accused of protecting predatory sex offender
Jimmy Savile, but the entire Labour front bench get accused of being habitual drug abusers. Thank goodness for the steadfast
Ian Blackford and the powerful eloquence of
Caroline Lucas and so many, many more....
Martinevans123 (
talk) 11:29, 1 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Martin, I was the subject of several press articles when I joined Ros Altmann's campaign for compensation for lost pensions in 2004. The Sunday Telegraph has different editorial staff and different deadlines c.f. the daily paper. The two sections don't compete but competition is fierce between journalists in the same section. Also journalists may be personally liable to libel charges. One article took a day to write and 2 days for 'lawyering' though that was before the infamous
McLibel_case changed the law. I still have a "letter before action" though I haven't shown my wife! Unbelievably the Sunday Times may have different political views to the weekly paper.
Take care
JRPG (
talk) 16:31, 18 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Hi JRPG. That's all very interesting, and thanks for telling me. I'm just wondering why you posted that here. My quandary, over at
Big Dog Daddy, was just over The Telegraph vs The Daily Telegraph. But then the source is usually just cite web anyway, which means it's just 'Telegraph'?! Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 16:34, 18 January 2022 (UTC)reply
On 19 January 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Peter Seabrook, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the
candidates page. —
Amakuru (
talk) 13:07, 19 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Semi-protected edit request : Hi, I think I have met your requests for: "These need reliable secondary sources, showing they are notable examples." on the Jeffrey Dahmer Page (Media -> Music) :
Talk:Jeffrey_Dahmer
could you please have a look? thanks in advance.
H8eternal (
talk) 08:16, 24 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I will try and have a look. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 10:40, 24 January 2022 (UTC)reply
ok I think I found an article that meets the demands now ( - source about Dahmer and his impact on metal music, mentioning the Slayer and the Macabre songs [we have to skip the Soulfly then]) please have a look again. thx.
H8eternal (
talk) 09:52, 27 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, I did look thanks, and I read the article. I suspect someone may ask if invisibleoranges.com is a
WP:RS. Regards.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 09:54, 27 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Invisible Oranges as you can see has a wiki-page of its own. so I guess it should be a WP:RS what do you think?
H8eternal (
talk) 10:20, 29 January 2022 (UTC)reply
hi Martin I think we got things sorted with
WT:RSP. they say it's allo good. have a look please at
Talk:Jeffrey_Dahmer again please. thank you.
H8eternal (
talk) 08:46, 6 February 2022 (UTC)reply
"Jewish scientists are reported to have discovered five new ways to disappoint their mothers."
Martinevans123 (
talk) 17:24, 30 January 2022 (UTC)reply
On 29 January 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Barry Cryer, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the
candidates page.
PFHLai (
talk) 19:24, 29 January 2022 (UTC)reply
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
An 82 year old man goes to his doctor.
'I want a complete physical examination. I'm about to get married,' says the old man.
'How old are you?' the doctor asks.
'I'm 82 and she's 24. I want a complete examination to make sure everything's working properly,' says the old man.
The Doctor said, '24! Well, I'll do the examination. But it might be better if you also got a young lodger. You know, company for your wife.'
'Yes, yes, what a good idea,' says the old man.
The doctor meets him again a few months later.
'Did you get married?' asks the doctor. 'How's your young bride?'
'She's pregnant,' says the old man proudly.
'And, erm, how's the lodger?' says the doctor nervously.
'She's pregnant, too,' says the old man.
100 drummers
This is my kind of zoom call.
[10]. They don't seem to be aware of
Glenn Branca but what the hell, its a load of fun.
Ceoil (
talk) 21:07, 29 January 2022 (UTC)reply
ps hey martin, glad to see you have survived the Chinese lab/Johnson gov plague.
Ceoil (
talk) 21:14, 29 January 2022 (UTC)reply
... Jerry Lewis had had blond hair – like the rt. hon. Herr de Pfeffel.
Sca (
talk) 18:43, 31 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Well, Jerry was funny, not just an incompetent buffoon and serial liar. But yes, it's an amusing thought.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:52, 31 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Jerry was not funny in the US, but he was funny in France. (Go figure.) Heaven forbid that Macron would turn into Johnson (or, for that matter, Trump). --
Tryptofish (
talk) 19:08, 31 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I always thought Jerry was more
goofy than funny. I guess Macron would be more a modern day
Monsieur Hulot if he was as stupid as Johnson.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:13, 31 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Was he at a party in his own flat? We have to wait for the police report to be told. He can't possibly prejudice their enquiry by telling us the simple truth. We all had to wait for the
shocking "update". Now we all have to wait for the
fixed penalty notices. Then we'll all have to wait for the
DPP. And then we'll all have to
wait for the next General Election.... Come back
fields of wheat, all is forgiven. Boris, he needs a long holiday in
Orkney.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:49, 31 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Groan-worthy joke: What did Mickey Mouse hate about Minnie Mouse's personality? She was fucking goofy. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 22:00, 31 January 2022 (UTC)reply
On 2 February 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Norma Waterson, which you nominated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the
candidates page.
Stephen 05:29, 2 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you! - Today is a feast day for which Bach wrote several cantatas including
Mit Fried und Freud ich fahr dahin, BWV 125, which was on DYK 10 years ago and TFA 4 years ago. I'm less happy that
Georg Christoph Biller had to wait days for a Main page appearance under recent deaths, and then stayed not even for a full day. It would have been so meaningful today, with the man in the cantata saying he can depart in joy and peace. - The February pic was taken in memory last year. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 17:04, 2 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Biller is back for a bit, - I found a merciful soul. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 17:28, 2 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you, I agree! - I like
my talk today (keeping Biller a bit longer, and even explaining how it works). - I was really cross that instead of Biller's name, we had white space for several hours, - who*s served by that? - I managed to picture two more vacation days --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 16:53, 3 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Today, I
decorated my talk with a Bach cantata. I heard it last year when missing RexxS began, and "not letting go" was a theme. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 17:41, 6 February 2022 (UTC)reply
funny ;) - we have the church not only for you (new pic, did you notice) but also
for that saint, - it's precious and features the spiral of justice --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 21:45, 14 February 2022 (UTC)reply
that's what I meant by "your" church ;) - you get the pic when you google "Oreya choir", DYK? - When it appeared on our Main page, Yoninah was impressed and thought it was my first - those were the days. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 22:50, 24 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, don't worry, I know, haha. My knowledge of Ukrainian composers has just been increased by about 500%.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 22:53, 24 February 2022 (UTC)reply
that's great!
more of same with stress on
Prayer for Ukraine, with a history from 1995 to 2022, - the article a work in progress, help wanted - translation of some of it would also help --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 20:28, 27 February 2022 (UTC)reply
The pic I took in 2009 is
on the German MP today, with this song from 1885, and I updated my personal pics to 3 March, when a symphony concert was dedicated to the victims of the 2022 invasion. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 12:33, 5 March 2022 (UTC)reply
DYK that I took it during a service, when I was at the front for communion anyway, and only afterwards noticed the reflection in the marble? The choir came several times, and once they sang me a birthday song at the reception. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 12:40, 5 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Christmas gift - just found searching for Dumka. Prayer for Ukraine will be on DYK tomorrow, finally, for the whole day. We don't take sides, they said. Really? --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 12:49, 22 March 2022 (UTC)reply
BoJo
"Kremlin calls Boris Johnson’s Ukraine diplomacy efforts
'utterly confused'"
What did they expect? –
Sca (
talk) 13:04, 2 February 2022 (UTC)reply
"British efforts to arrange a phone call between Johnson and Vladimir Putin were in flux after a previously scheduled call on Monday had to be cancelled by the British because Johnson had to answer questions from MPs about alleged Covid rule-breaking parties in Downing Street." - says it all, really.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 13:13, 2 February 2022 (UTC)reply
And there's
this. –
Sca (
talk) 14:49, 2 February 2022 (UTC)reply
PS: I once spent a very rainy fishing trip to Canada in a tent with The Return of the Native. Never did finish it. –
Sca (
talk) 15:38, 2 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Good spot! We'll keep the
useful and intelligent one, thanks. Do you want the
first one back?
Martinevans123 (
talk) 15:45, 2 February 2022 (UTC) p.s. Plot spoiler: Eustacia drowns herself, Wildeve drowns trying to save her, Diggory Venn saves Clym Yeobright by mistake, Clym goes mad and becomes a televangelist. So, all in all a happy ending.reply
Alas, the fishing trip failed to end happily. Our way back entailed 45 miles of poorly maintained logging road, which tore the muffler off my fishing buddy's Ford, and 250 mi. of highway, upon which we kept the windows open to avoid CO poisoning. For some reason my buddy and I parted ways after that. And I never read Thomas Hardy again. Thus were the changes wrought in
North Ontario. –
Sca (
talk) 16:28, 2 February 2022 (UTC)reply
An overly moist one, too. I didn't know TH was into happy endings. –
Sca (
talk) 19:16, 2 February 2022 (UTC)reply
That was one of the happier ones...
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:26, 2 February 2022 (UTC)reply
DYK that
Patti Smith did a
cover of that great song? But long before that, she showed up with Young in this
gig. (Sorry for the execrable vid quality, but I like the aural atmospherics.) –
Sca (
talk) 19:38, 2 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I had no idea. Cool track. I wonder who were the other friends. Talking of surprising
covers (really good, actually).
Martinevans123 (
talk) 20:25, 2 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Agree (though this user wasn't a Dolly fan). Try
this iteration, with quirky instrumentation. –
Sca (
talk) 13:44, 3 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Ah good. He still looks like an overgrown schoolboy, of course. Let's hope that they sack him
Martinevans123 (
talk) 13:03, 7 February 2022 (UTC) ... good old
Guto, great to know that Johnson is
an incomplete clownreply
On 9 February 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Syl Johnson, which you nominated and updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the
candidates page.
Stephen 23:56, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
You'll be proud to know that your piratical predecessor
Bartholomew Roberts made German Wiki's version of
OTD (Was geschah am 10. Februar?). –
Sca (
talk) 13:25, 10 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Please don't set ffish on ffire! --
Tryptoffish (
talk) 22:34, 10 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Yn gyfan gwbl nawr, dosbarth.... mae ff ar gyfer fforiwr, ffwl a ffwlbart!
Martinevans123 (
talk) 22:56, 10 February 2022 (UTC) (but there's no effin'
môr-leidr... )reply
WTFF? Say that three times ffast. (That three times ffast.) --
Tryptofish (
talk) 23:23, 10 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Hiya M. Phew is right. Their play was much improved over last week. I miss
Gareth Griffith-Jones all the time but much more so during the tourney. He was so generous in helping me to learn the ins and outs of the sport more than a decade ago now. Best regards.
MarnetteD|
Talk 16:32, 12 February 2022 (UTC)reply
What a hero Dan Biggar was there. That drop goal came in handy! His
100th cap! Yes, no news from Gareth and am a little concerned as to his welfare.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 16:42, 12 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I am as well. Even after he retired from editing I still heard from him at Xmas or New Year's and that didn't happen this December.
MarnetteD|
Talk 16:46, 12 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I have dropped him a line on his talk page, but I see his email is no longer enabled. I hope you are keeping well.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 17:03, 12 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Rats, that is not a good sign. I am certainly grateful to have met him - and you as well. I am hanging in there M. Here in the US the tourney started with one match a weekend on BBC America in 05 or 06. It shifted from station to station after that with most of the telecasts tape delayed. It has finally landed on the Peacock streaming service and that means I get to see all of the matches live :-) Cheers.
MarnetteD|
Talk 17:28, 12 February 2022 (UTC)reply
That is a good outcome. Split across channels here in UK, which means in (only) half of the matches we get
adverts. It seems
the Frogs are currently pounding
the Paddys 19-7 (can I get blocked for saying that?)
Martinevans123 (
talk) 17:39, 12 February 2022 (UTC)reply
A very fluid, open and clean game. But I think France deserved their 30 - 24 win.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:55, 12 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I concur. I think I heard one of the announcers say that a part of their team is known as the "People's front - of Judea" or something like that. It brought a chuckle to my day.
MarnetteD|
Talk 20:30, 12 February 2022 (UTC)reply
There is currently a discussion at
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Your behavior on the Heidegger TP is really ridiculous, to publish my location and then follow my edits on other pages. I've notified the admins of this, you really need to stop this nonsense!
Cornelis Dopper (
talk) 18:24, 15 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Where is that discussion exactly? I don't see anything there. What "ridiculous behavior" do you mean?
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:54, 15 February 2022 (UTC)reply
And what do you mean by accusing me of "stalking you"
here?? I reverted three of your edits at
Ludwig Wittgenstein as I thought they were not improvements, and I gave a clear reason in my edit summary.
Martinevans123 (
talk)
I've seen new editors start a discussion at ANI and forget to leave the talk page notice, but never the other way round. Oh it's there now, I'll take a look.--
Pawnkingthree (
talk) 19:07, 15 February 2022 (UTC)reply
The original IP
213.124.174.59 has edited, seemingly without much incident, with about 123 edits, since 23 December 2000 (if this was indeed the same person). They were blocked for 24 hours yesterday.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:25, 15 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Re: an image for ANI. I'm wracking my memory for where to find it, but do you remember that image that people occasionally post at ANI that shows a statue of someone with his face in his hands, with the caption "Not this shit again!"? I'd post it there, but I can't remember what the file name is. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 22:06, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
We think alike! (Which should worry you.) I found it! By scrolling through EEng's talk page, of course! --
Tryptofish (
talk) 22:13, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
And thank you so much for opening that AN/I thread. Please don't forget to inform me. At least, now it's open again, it gives plenty more folks the opportunity to close it again, in the wrong way. If it's not been
spun to death before then.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 22:22, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
best image for ani, arbcom and such is Gerechtigkeitsspirale, see the link a bit above. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 22:24, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
(
edit conflict) Oh, no, I can't, I can't! It was threesies who opened it. I just put the header on it.1 But no matter, we're all deep in the conspiracy together. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 22:26, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
1And I didn't even get that right:
[14]. Sorry! --
Tryptofish (
talk) 22:38, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
For those playing along at home:
[15]. Now maybe someone will block me, instead of
EEng.
--
Tryptofish (
talk) 22:29, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
It's great when a complete
WP:SPA unknown IP newbie can turn AN/I into such a
jolly bunfight with a single valueless case, isn't it.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 22:31, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes indeed. How wonderful it is to edit here. (Honestly, since I logged on today, pretty much everything has left me facepalming. Maybe not as bad as that dude in the image, but still.) --
Tryptofish (
talk) 22:34, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Wait, a "bunfight"? Is that like a cockfight, but turned backwards? --
Tryptofish (
talk) 22:36, 17 February 2022 (UTC)reply
And the judge put the cops in jail.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 11:26, 26 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Signature
No worries re: my signature. It is a personalised one so one part links to my userpage and the other to my talk page, but the name is still PeeJay :) –
PeeJay 13:19, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks, PeeJay. I will take care to note that in future! I'm assuming no connection with
this one, or indeed
this one.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 13:45, 18 February 2022 (UTC)reply
On 19 February 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Jack Smethurst, which you nominated and updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the
candidates page.
PFHLai (
talk) 06:38, 19 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Seems he's been telling a few fibs. Also, he seems to be a homicidal maniac. Like that
other bloke with
the moustache.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 16:18, 24 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Bloke was the
Weirdle solution a couple days ago. Of course, I immediately filed a
complaint. –
Sca (
talk) 13:25, 26 February 2022 (UTC)reply
But I was basing it on our beloved & infallible
MOS, which provides that U.S.
topicsmust follow U.S. English style. Clearly, you can't
FAULTme for that. –
Sca (
talk) 14:43, 26 February 2022 (UTC)reply
But he said that Russia would not invade Ukraine.
[20] Oh wait a minute,
he's a politician. It's a special peacekeeping and denazification mission, or something like that.--♦IanMacM♦(talk to me) 17:36, 24 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, he said it on 18 January. You can't expect a homicidal maniac to keep his word for more than a month a day, can you? But it's ok.... now he's just "targeting military installations with precision weapons". Ordinary Ukrainian civilians have nothing to worry about. Whether they are Nazis or not.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 17:46, 24 February 2022 (UTC)reply
We look forward to China's special peacekeeping mission in Taiwan.--♦IanMacM♦(talk to me) 17:58, 24 February 2022 (UTC)reply
On 24 February 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Gary Brooker, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the
candidates page.
PFHLai (
talk) 17:33, 24 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks, Tony. As I suggested in my reply, if anyone is on Linkedin, it would be very helpful to hear from them.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:05, 27 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Well, that was fun...
You sure attracted quite an admirer, didn't you?
[22],
[23] --
Tryptofish (
talk) 23:12, 28 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, one absurd would have been enough for me. Brings a whole new meaning to
tulip mania, doesn't it? --
Tryptofish (
talk) 23:27, 28 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I suspect that if you tilted at windmills, they would have accused you of being DONKEY HOTAY!!! Anyway, I wish you some peaceful editing.
--
Tryptofish (
talk) 23:45, 28 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I just had a look at that discussion and began wondering, early on, whether Mr. Dopper's
Dasein was authentic, meaning that he could either choose and win himself or lose and never win himself, or whether it was inauthentic, fleeing in the face of his being and forgetting that he can choose and win himself. I guess nobody can really win for losing, and things simply are what they are. So,
here's some Heidegger for you all, set to a soft reggae beat with tuba bass and tadpoles. ---
Sluzzelintalk 12:37, 1 March 2022 (UTC)reply
He admitted to socking with IPs two weeks ago. If he'd just been indeffed back then it would have saved everyone a lot of time.
Pawnkingthree (
talk) 23:28, 1 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Now, now, we mustn't
bite the noobs, must we. And besides Trypto wouldn't get his
fun..... but
yes. "All tits and teeth", as my Aunty Peggy used to say.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 23:35, 1 March 2022 (UTC)reply
With fun like that, I'll take, um, whatever is the opposite. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 15:08, 2 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Did you know... that pagotophobia is the fear of ice-cream
[29]?? As far as I can see, it's mentioned at Wikipedia only once, at
Sucharita Tyagi:
"Tyagi made her film acting debut with a supporting role in the 2019 short film Lutf, co-starring
Mona Singh and
Vinay Pathak. The film, which follows the life a woman suffering from pagotophobia, or the fear of
ice cream, was on released on
Sony Liv on 10 October 2019, coinciding with the
World Mental Health Day."
Martinevans123 (
talk) 16:11, 3 March 2022 (UTC)reply
I won't say what
Trypophobia is. But I'm pretty sure that
anorexia is the fear of eating too much ice cream. Perhaps pagodophobia is the fear of pagodas. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 22:13, 3 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Hi Anna. Hope you are well. Thanks for pointing that out. I have adjusted the ref to cover the following page 104. My snippet view on Google shows: "The gas from upstairs had made its way downstairs and knocked him unconscious while he slept. He woke up late in the afternoon feeling extremely ill and disoriented. Dr. Horder saw him later and diagnoses him as having carbon monoxide poisoning." Hope that helps.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 08:49, 6 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Clive Myrie
Hi Martin, I've just seen your edit reverting mine, saying "we usually reserve the infobox for notable spouses/family?" Is that the case? Because on most pages I've seen a person's spouse/children is listed regardless of whether they are "notable" or not.
Samuel J Walker (
talk) 19:06, 6 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Hi Samuel. I just checked
Template:Infobox person and it seems you are right. It seems that parents and children must be notable, but not a spouse. Please revert my edit. Many thanks for asking.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:12, 6 March 2022 (UTC)reply
No worries. Thank you for answering so quickly.
Samuel J Walker (
talk) 19:16, 6 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Listening to the charity concert
mentioned here. I created the articles of the composer and the soprano. Betovi just started. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 20:41, 10 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Now, you can also listen on YouTube,
and more music, the piece by
Anna Korsun begins after about one hour, and the voices call "Freiheit!" (freedom, instead of "Freude", joy). Music every day, pictured in songs. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 15:42, 14 March 2022 (UTC)reply
So about when we sang it. My mom also died in March. We had tickets for Voces8 in 2020 RMF - cancelled. Hoping
for this year. Patience ... --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 21:50, 17 March 2022 (UTC)reply
He's "on". (His YouTube is gone ...) Thank you for all your help, including Bach's
No. 1, today! --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 15:22, 25 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Hello, I advise you to look at
my edit again.
This link to the current deletion discussion was contained both in the AfD template and in my edit summary, perfectly in line with
WP:AFDHOWTO. Please revert your edit. Thank you.
Throast (
talk |
contribs) 18:47, 15 March 2022 (UTC)reply
User:cyberbot has now correctly re-added the template with a link that works. It's sometimes a good idea to at least outline the reasons for (yet another) AfD, by means of an edit summary and/or in a Talk page thread, so that other editors know why it has been suggested? Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:53, 15 March 2022 (UTC)reply
The link already worked in my initial edit. Besides, if hadn't, one should always consider improving over reverting. I don't see the necessity in adding a rationale in the edit summary because the edit summary already contains a link to the rationale. Copy-pasting it into the edit summary and/or on the talk page would obviously be overkill.
Throast (
talk |
contribs) 18:59, 15 March 2022 (UTC)reply
It was redlink for me. Perhaps there is some unavoidable lag. If you are, as you say "happy to improve it", I would have thought the Talk page would be the first port of call.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:04, 15 March 2022 (UTC)reply
The article has seen no significant improvement since it was first created in 2004 or so. Before nominating, I made sure to make a thorough BEFORE search because I actually came to improve the article initially. That being said, I felt that a deletion discussion was the most appropriate step. If sources are found, which I doubt, the discussion will be closed and the article improved. Sounds fine to me.
Throast (
talk |
contribs) 19:22, 15 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Article improvement is generally more successful as a collaborative exercise? Looking at
Talk:David Firth, I see there is not one single suggestion/ invitation to try and improve the article. I'm also a little bemused that he's still deemed to be the primary subject, alongside
David Firth (actor) and
David Firth (statistician).
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:32, 15 March 2022 (UTC)reply
David Firth AfD
Hello, writing you here because our back-and-forth at the AfD doesn't seem to be going anywhere. You're misunderstanding the core of my argument. The state of the actual article should never be part of one's argument at a deletion discussion and it's not part of mine. I am simply arguing that the subject does not meet WP:BIO now just as it didn't in 2008. I am not saying that the article should be deleted because its quality hasn't changed since 2008. That would be a bad AfD argument.
My rationale is clear and does not require clarification. If you don't intend to refute my thesis that the subject doesn't meet WP:BIO, which you could do simply by providing adequate sources, I don't see a reason to engage with you any further at the AfD.
Throast (
talk |
contribs) 09:40, 16 March 2022 (UTC)reply
"Let’s get the myth out of the way now. "Popty ping" is not the Welsh term for the microwave oven, sorry. A literal translation would be "the oven that goes ping", which, while being very Pythonesque, and incredibly funny, isn’t actually true. The Welsh word for microwave is "meicrodon" – "meicro" being Welsh for micro, and "don", the mutated word for ton (tohn), literally means wave. And "ffwrn" just means oven. I know. Dull, isn’t it?"
"And on the same subject, the Welsh word for jellyfish is not "pysgodyn wibli wobli" (puh-skod-in wibbly wobbly), or, in English, wibbly wobbly fish. Lord alone knows what comedian came up with that one, but it’s fairly new in the lexicon of non-existent Welsh words. For many years, the official Welsh term for the jellyfish was "cont y môr", academics have recently changed it to "sglefren fôr" (skle-vren vore = sea skater)."
[31].
Martinevans123 (
talk) 12:03, 16 March 2022 (UTC)reply
March 2022
Your edit to
Jon Hiseman has been removed in whole or in part, as it appears to have added
copyrighted material to Wikipedia without evidence of
permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read
Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials for more information on uploading your material to Wikipedia. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images—you must write using your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously, and persistent violators of our copyright policy will be
blocked from editing. See
Wikipedia:Copying text from other sources for more information. —
Diannaa (
talk) 16:19, 16 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks for telling me, although I don't appreciate the threat of being blocked. As usual, I tried to paraphrase as best I could. I would welcome a demonstration of how that factual sequence of events could be re-phrased.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 16:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)reply
As you probably know, the wording of the warning comes from the template, not from me personally. We have had many discussions about copyright going back seven years, where I have advised you in a non-template individualized way, so I think by now you should know my personal thoughts on the subject. Regarding this particular violation, the content was pretty much unaltered, and had not been paraphrased much at all. How I would likely do it is to omit quite a bit of the excessive detail about the location of the town of his birth, the occupations of his parents, his mother's maiden name, etc. The musicality of the family could be stated in a more general way rather than detailed extensively. —
Diannaa (
talk) 16:42, 16 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Your template is signed by you personally. I'm not sure what could be less detailed than "
Woolwich, south-east London" except perhaps "
Woolwich, London". I think what's in the infobox should be both mentioned and sourced in the text. I would have thought the details about his parents are all perfectly reasonable in a BIO article. Not sure how one paraphrases "flute and piano" except as "piano and flute". Phew, the lawyers can relax once more. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 16:51, 16 March 2022 (UTC)reply
If you would like to get a second opinion, please feel free to consult one of the people
on this list.—
Diannaa (
talk) 17:19, 16 March 2022 (UTC)reply
As ever, I am grateful for your advice. This has not been "seven years" of one-way traffic, has it? For some reason all of my copyright breaches have slipped past the other 8 editors on the list. I'm sure your suggestions, on how to avoid copyvio, are most welcome. I just don't really appreciate the threat that I "will be
blocked from editing."
Martinevans123 (
talk) 17:40, 16 March 2022 (UTC)reply
I agree. I can offer to spank you instead. Anyway, I looked at the current version of the page alongside the Guardian obit, and it wasn't obvious to me how I could paraphrase it any further without getting silly. But if you'd like me to take another look at it as a sort of second opinion, just let me know and I'll be happy to try. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 18:16, 16 March 2022 (UTC)reply
That's very kind. I'd be happy if you could offer any alternative version of this text, avoiding all possible multi-million-dollar law suits, which is what I tried to paraphrase:
Quotation
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
"John (it was Melody Maker that referred to him in 1964 as “Jon”, and he saw no reason to change it) was born in Woolwich, south-east London, to Lily (nee Spratt), who worked in the music library at the Bank of England, and Philip Hiseman, a senior lecturer in printing at Camberwell School of Arts and Crafts. Lily played the flute and piano and Philip’s family included music hall entertainers and dance band musicians."
"Hiseman studied the violin and piano at Addey and Stanhope grammar school in nearby New Cross, but found that his true interest lay in the drums. He played in a school trio with Reeves on double bass and Greenslade on piano. Later he appeared in the wittily named Wes Minster Five and was a founder member of Neil Ardley and the New Jazz Orchestra."
I particularly wanted to get the explanation of his mis-naming by Melody Maker in somehow. There is, of course, much more in
Spencer Leigh's obituary that could be usefully added.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:36, 16 March 2022 (UTC)reply
(
edit conflict) The reason why it is typically me that you see is because I do the majority of the work at CopyPatrol, as you can see by the
leaderboard. (Stats go back to June 2016, when we created the CopyPatrol interface.) I'm not going to apologise for the wording of the template or tell you that you won't be blocked someday if you keep violating our copyright policy. It could happen.The current version is much better from a copyright point of view. Suggestions for further additions: If you want to add something about his musical family, you could say "He came from a musical family". If you want to add something about his musical interests, you could say "He took piano and violin lessons in grammar school, but later discovered he preferred the drums." If you could try re-writing the above passages yourself I would appreciate it; I would be happy to review your proposed edits. I have to go out now. Bye for now.—
Diannaa (
talk) 18:47, 16 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Sorry, I can't promise to review all your stats from 2016. But I'm sure you do more than anyone else. You need not apologise for the wording of the template. But
Wikipedia:Don't template the regulars rings some very irritating and counter-productive alarm bells, don't you think? Is there really no other way of telling me you've "changed visibility of 5 revisions" on a page I've edited? That won't stop me getting blocked, any sooner or any later. Yes, "He took piano and violin lessons in grammar school, but later discovered he preferred the drums" looks fine to me. I could say, "He came from a musical family", but I think I might rather resign first. Perhaps Trypto could also review my proposed edits. You two could have a little competition. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:02, 16 March 2022 (UTC)reply
And as I once said previously at EEng's talk page,
don't regulate the Templars, either. I've made these edits:
[32], which I hope are helpful with respect to the material quoted above, and I might be able to take some more requests later. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 19:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Of course, you could just throw away the entire article and watch
this instead. You'll end up knowing about 100% more about him.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:44, 16 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Today's war atrocity c/o Mr Putin
ДЕТИ .... the new Russian word for "please bomb here":
Speaking of atrocities, have you seen
this? Launched (I use the word advisedly) with the
Soviet national anthem, no less. And somewhere I read that the obnoxious vocalist, who unaccountably
interrupted his master's voice, sang a song that included lyrics praising Lenin (depicted) & dear old
Uncle Joe. –
Sca (
talk) 16:38, 19 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Even the
Governator, now 74, took it upon himself to
counter Vlad's orgy of mindless jingoism. Considering the source, it was pretty good
gig. –
Sca (
talk) 19:24, 19 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Gets my
vote for the subtle approach. Appreciated cosmonaut Artemyev's helpful explanation: "We had accumulated a lot of yellow material so we needed to use it." Necessity, as they say. –
Sca (
talk) 19:41, 19 March 2022 (UTC)reply
So what about our response at Wikipedia, to this
return to the Middle Ages? Whatever it is, I think we should be doing more. Personally I'd like to see a
Ukrainian flag flying on our Main page.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:46, 19 March 2022 (UTC)reply
So happens I have a genuine Soviet flag, souvenir of my Eastern Europe days. I've been looking for a good place to burn it. –
Sca (
talk) 19:49, 19 March 2022 (UTC)reply
"In 2013, the U.S. rock band
Bloodhound Gang desecrated a Russian flag during a concert in Ukraine. In response, Vladimir Markin of the
Investigative Committee of Russia said that his department was prepared to file criminal charges if prosecutors thought they had a case." ..... Watch this space?
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:59, 19 March 2022 (UTC)reply
On March 20, Russia declared its cosmonauts did not arrive at the ISS wearing Ukrainian colors blue and yellow. The
actual colors are and cream and green, said the head of Russian space agency
Roscosmos, Dmitry Rogozin – termed "a strong
supporter of the invasion" of Ukraine. –
Sca (
talk) 13:02, 20 March 2022 (UTC) ;-) —reply
England played very well. But, at 25–13, a well deserved
Grand Slam for France.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:53, 19 March 2022 (UTC)reply
They were impressive. Looks like they are aiming to do well in
next years shindig. Enjoy the rest of your weekend!
MarnetteD|
Talk 22:32, 19 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Start the week
Good morning Martin. I have just been listening to, and enjoying, Start the Week, Welsh Identities on Radio 4. The programme is repeated at 9:30 this evening and, of course, available on BBC SOUNDS. Gareth Griffith-Jones (
contribs) (
talk) 09:56, 21 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Hello, I see on your user page that you use JSTOR and I'd like to know more about your experience. By
my calculations, a good 70 % of the main JSTOR content is now available for everyone at
Internet Archive Scholar, with full text search provided e.g. at
https://scholar.archive.org/ . The service is still in beta, but I've used it for some source-finding and it seems quite usable to me; I wonder whether that's just my experience. If you have a chance, the next time you'd be looking for a source on Google Scholar or JSTOR or similar, to perform the same search on IA scholar instead, I'd be curious to hear how it ends up. Thanks,
Nemo 19:04, 22 March 2022 (UTC)reply
New Savile documentary
On Netflix this time. The D**ly M**l is suitably outraged.
[36] How's about that then, guys and gals?--♦IanMacM♦(talk to me) 18:04, 25 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, nobody is forced to watch anything on Netflix as it is subscription only. This type of outrage works best with the BBC licence fee. "How dare the BBC spend my licence fee on this?" (eg the new TV drama with
Alan Partridge playing Jimmy Savile (or is it
Steve Coogan?). We haven't seen this yet, possibly the autumn schedule awaits for this delight.--♦IanMacM♦(talk to me) 20:33, 25 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, I'm looking forward to that. Let's hope
Paul has learned to roll his Yorkshire R's properly.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:09, 25 March 2022 (UTC)reply
On 26 March 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Taylor Hawkins, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the
candidates page.
Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 15:25, 26 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks. Apparently, "one of these days your heart will stop and play it's
final beat."
Martinevans123 (
talk) 16:45, 26 March 2022 (UTC)reply
thank you, love it, - so sad --- I made my own Ukraine banner
today, and think that the two blues in "yours" don't go well together, - consider a different background? --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 13:15, 1 April 2022 (UTC)reply
I've just borrowed may banner from Ritchie, so I'm really entirely in his hands over that. Yours is a very musical one. Yes, it's
very sad indeed.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 13:23, 1 April 2022 (UTC)reply
you could still copy his code (with attribution, naturally), and use a different colour, such as
SlimVirgin's irreal green, no? - My banner was done by DanCherek, seen? It sounds great, - I couldn't believe how well the two melodies go together. Source for today's DYK nom has white for a background:
[37], - something also for
Sca? --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 13:38, 1 April 2022 (UTC)reply
memories:
two people on DYK, both connected to Oper Frankfurt, and don't miss yesterday's video of Pink Floyd given to me! --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 18:48, 8 April 2022 (UTC)reply
and we'll raise it up - happy Easter, and thanks for your greeting, - music in return, Hallelujah, yes, the Handel, and we could still do it after missing two years --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 22:08, 17 April 2022 (UTC)reply
another
Ukraine day today:
Maks Levin DYK, expanding
Kyiv Symphony Orchestra (have tickets), and creating
Anthony Robin Schneider, the bass who could be heard opening the singing in Beethoven's Ninth twice on 10 March 2022, live in Frankfurt, Germany, and recorded in Auckland, New Zealand, singing "Freiheit!" (freedom) instead of "Freude" (joy), in a tradition started after the Fall of the Wall. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 16:00, 25 April 2022 (UTC)reply
Hello, Martinevans123. You have new messages at
Talk:Gardeners' World. Message added 22:14, 30 March 2022 (UTC). You can
remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.
Marty, I forwarded an email from a friend containing the whole text. I'm not a subscriber either, but I could read it. –
Sca (
talk) 13:42, 1 April 2022 (UTC)reply
PS: Here's a Vlad piece you can read: "If
Putin Does Back Off, It's Always Just a Pause." –
Sca (
talk) 13:59, 1 April 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks. "If you get translations of Putin’s remarks, he sounds like an enraged Hitler. Ukraine is a democratic, peaceful country that is being punished just because it wants to keep its own statehood. There are people who oddly, at this late date, are apologists, trying to get us to understand Putin’s point of view. He has no legitimate point of view on this. That’s the frustration I feel when I watch some of the coverage." - Brian Bonner, veteran U.S. newspaper journalist who has given the last 14 years of his career to Ukraine.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 17:35, 4 April 2022 (UTC)reply
PS: Perhaps
Lavrov deserves a place in the Hall of Infamy? --
Sca (
talk) 16:07, 5 April 2022 (UTC)reply
Not only satellites. Bucha:
[38][39] –
Sca (
talk) 16:38, 5 April 2022 (UTC)reply
Just actors, Lavrov tells us. If you look carefully, you can see them moving.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 16:53, 5 April 2022 (UTC)reply
Second verse, same as the first. --
Sca (
talk) 15:56, 6 April 2022 (UTC)reply
“And in the rearview mirror it is noticeable that the dead seem to be starting to rise even.” -
Russia-1.
[40]Martinevans123 (
talk) 16:04, 6 April 2022 (UTC)reply
Russia is a powder keg. The Russians aren't all gullible, and most of them must know something of their country's long history under various regimes of oppressive, sometimes murderous, autocracy. Something's gotta give some day. --
Sca (
talk) 16:11, 6 April 2022 (UTC)reply
Within the next few days might be good. Just how stupid does Putin think the Russian people are?
Martinevans123 (
talk) 16:21, 6 April 2022 (UTC)reply
German BND intercepts radio
traffic discussing murder of Bucha civilians. –
Sca (
talk) 13:13, 7 April 2022 (UTC)reply
"The radio traffic intercepted by the BND makes it seem as though the atrocities perpetrated on civilians in Bucha were neither random acts nor the product of individual soldiers who got out of hand. Rather, say sources familiar with the audio, the material suggests that the troops spoke of the atrocities as though they were simply discussing their everyday lives.". These are not soldiers. These are animals.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 13:34, 7 April 2022 (UTC)reply
"We are here to write an encyclopedia (and showcase it's good articles), not express moral outrage over the recent events." - I'm not sure why these have to be alternatives, except that I suspect an encyclopaedia is not supposed to have any morals. Which, in such times as this, increasingly makes me ask myself if it really is a worthwhile pursuit.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:53, 10 April 2022 (UTC)reply
On 5 April 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Delfina Entrecanales, which you nominated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the
candidates page.
PFHLai (
talk) 02:15, 5 April 2022 (UTC)reply
We are heading for a load of wikifun over the Easter holidays as people watch the Netflix documentary. I haven't seen it, it looks okay but doesn't say much new (Prince Charles and Margaret Thatcher were keen on Savile etc etc).--♦IanMacM♦(talk to me) 13:49, 8 April 2022 (UTC)reply
Am digging out my shell-suit and medallion, even as we speak, for a special celebration.... (?)
Martinevans123 (
talk) 20:03, 8 April 2022 (UTC)reply
Watch out for newly acquired experts on Savile who don't know how to spell his name correctly.--♦IanMacM♦(talk to me) 20:07, 8 April 2022 (UTC)reply
Austrian Chancellor
Karl Nehammer said he would meet Putin on Monday in Moscow. "We are militarily neutral, but (have) a clear position on the Russian war of aggression against #Ukraine," Nehammer wrote on Twitter. "It must stop! It needs humanitarian corridors, ceasefire & full investigation of war crimes."
Martinevans123 (
talk) 12:38, 11 April 2022 (UTC)reply
"The Kremlin said Mr Biden's comments were an "unacceptable" effort to "distort the situation" in Ukraine. This is hardly acceptable from a president of the United States, a country that has committed well-known crimes in recent times," Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov said on a conference call with reporters.". A relentless of bombardment of people's houses in Mariupol for many weeks, knowing that thousands of resident civilians will either be killed instantly or will be trapped in their cellars and starve to death.... and then to target public buildings where homeless civilians are sheltering... and to refuse ceasefires for humanitarian corridors and aid... and all just because they are Ukrainians.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 13:39, 13 April 2022 (UTC)reply
Here's one
Vladimir we liked and admired (unlike certain others). --
Sca (
talk) 19:10, 14 April 2022 (UTC) reply
On
19 April 2022, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Say You Don't Mind, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that
Christopher Gunning apparently only got paid £15 to arrange the top-20 hit "Say You Don't Mind"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at
Template:Did you know nominations/Say You Don't Mind. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (
here's how,
Say You Don't Mind), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to
the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the
Did you know talk page.
Russian tycoon Tinkov
denounces 'crazy war' in Ukraine. –
Sca (
talk) 12:30, 20 April 2022 (UTC)reply
Some sense at last, from
Oleg Tinkov (the 15th-richest person in Russia):
"The (Russian) generals, waking up with a hangover, realized that they had a shit army," Tinkov wrote. "And how could the army be good if everything else in the country is shit and mired in nepotism, sycophancy and servility?"
Switching to English, Tinkov wrote: "Dear 'collective West' please give Mr. Putin a clear exit to save his face and stop this massacre. Please be more rational and humanitarian." --
Martinevans123 (
talk) 13:04, 20 April 2022 (UTC)reply
"The country is ... mired in nepotism, sycophancy and servility." --
Sca (
talk) 13:16, 20 April 2022 (UTC)reply
"If compressed, the entire online encyclopedia would take up only twenty gigabytes." Do they take the seeds out during
the compression?
Martinevans123 (
talk) 15:41, 23 April 2022 (UTC)reply
No bytes were injured during that process. –
Sca (
talk) 17:54, 23 April 2022 (UTC) ↓reply
Hello! Two things. Firstly, as far as I know, there's no rule against red links in disambig pages. That said, I don't really like them either unless there's a good chance an article will be published to fill the red link. Secondly, I'm in the process of creating said article and it'll be done once I get a chance to copy edit one last time. I just got ahead of myself by putting links to Isbister Lake everywhere they'll be needed.
Masterhatch (
talk) 15:20, 23 April 2022 (UTC)reply
Soviet-era effluvia
... emerge yet again in conquered Kherson. –
Sca (
talk) 13:22, 24 April 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, apparently
old Vlad had his 152nd birthday on Friday. But I think young Vlad models himself more on the charming and erudite
Uncle Joe. "One woman was unimpressed “What the fuck are you doing here?” she asked an enemy soldier, in an exchange filmed on a phone. “You’re occupiers! You’re are fascists! You came to my land uninvited.” She then tried to hand him a packet of seeds. “These are so sunflowers will grow when you all lie down here. From this moment you are cursed! You are a piece of shit!”Martinevans123 (
talk) 13:28, 24 April 2022 (UTC)reply
Anne Applebaum called Russian conduct in Ukraine "an eerily precise repeat of the NKVD and Red Army’s behaviour" in eastern Europe decades ago. –
Sca (
talk) 13:38, 24 April 2022 (UTC)reply
Let's hope no Russian sportsmen or women are permitted to complete anywhere in the world, and no international sports events are permitted to occur on Russian soil, as long as the war continues. It's not the fault of the unfortunate sportsman and women, of course, but rather of their deranged megalomaniac President.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 14:38, 25 April 2022 (UTC)reply
Pink Floyd has an RFC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you.
TSP (
talk) 13:44, 28 April 2022 (UTC)reply
I have the
quirky DYK today, which is rare, and I don't quite know why
music for peace was deemed quirky. - I took and picked the blue-and-yellow pic last year for May. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 14:20, 3 May 2022 (UTC)reply
What? No "sausage-krautz bullshit pseudoreligious music from Herr Schlampewurtz"??
Martinevans123 (
talk) 14:26, 3 May 2022 (UTC)reply
I wonder what "Herr Schlampewurtz" would be in Russian? --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 14:32, 3 May 2022 (UTC)reply
thank you! - I like
my talk today (actually mostly from 29 May - I took the title pic), enjoy the music, two related videos worth watching! --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 14:53, 31 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Chris Kamara
Hi!
Not sure if you know, but you recently added a claim on Chris Kamara's article that he had played for Welshpool again in 2021. Did you know the
source link you provided is from 2013? I initially thought it was vandalism but you don't seem that sort of editor.
Wondering if this was just an error in the year or if I'm missing something?
EU mulls putting Putin partisan Krill on personal sanctions list. –
Sca (
talk) 13:23, 4 May 2022 (UTC)reply
"In 2012 Russian bloggers spotted a photo in which a watch worth more than $30,000 appeared airbrushed off the holy leader's wrist, but its reflection was visible on the table."
Martinevans123 (
talk) 13:28, 4 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Now that's value, all right. --
Sca (
talk) 14:57, 4 May 2022 (UTC)reply
"According to
Forbes Patriarch Kirill’s net worth in 2006 was
$4 billion." I guess the vow of poverty has somewhat passed him by.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 15:24, 4 May 2022 (UTC)reply
My sources indicate Rev. Krill's net worth has shrunk to 30 pieces of silver. --
Sca (
talk) 19:23, 4 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Made only a link to Boney M.
In rubrice "covers" changed it to written in blue.
See the references page.....first attempt....letters became not blue....but.....3.699 letters are deleted!!!!
Do not understand anything of it!!!! Did only make a link...
Cannot bring it back to how it was....."cancelling" does not appear.....MWV didn't change 3.699 points!!!
Musicworldvision (
talk) 23:20, 4 May 2022 (UTC)reply
yes,but the self-revert possiblity did not appear in the rework list.
But discovered today that someone had already the page back so good as it was.
Musicworldvision (
talk) 21:31, 5 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Here's
the article history. As with any article, it's always possible to Undo whatever is the latest edit (provided it's not an admin-protected edit). Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:34, 5 May 2022 (UTC)reply
No worries. But I'm not sure that one sentence deserves its own sub-section. And I'm pretty sure it's not part of his "Career". So should probably be repositioned. Cheers.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 10:17, 5 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Richard Hammond
As we’ve concluded it’s a disjunct which would need a comma. Do I have to the go ahead to change this. This would be my first official change that’s actually been kept as such. This is with regards to the “Since 2016” on The Richard Hammond page.
Define02 (
talk) 12:47, 6 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Hello
Martinevans123. Please search and watch this Youtube video - 'catherine tate talks about her FAKE birthday'. Thank you.
2.24.14.127 (
talk) — Preceding
undated comment added 08:11, 8 May 2022 (UTC)reply
IP 2.14, I've watched that video many times and it's been discussed on the Talk page. Sorry, but it's wholly inconclusive and is not considered to be a reliable source. Please discuss further at
Talk:Catherine Tate if you feel you must. Many thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 08:14, 8 May 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Martinevans123, how can not it not be reilable? She literally say's in the video that Wikipedia have her birth date wrong and that it's not the 12 May 1968 and it's actually the 5 December 1969. She say's she is 18 months older on Wikipedia. How much more evidence do you need to understand that her birth date is incorrect on Wikipedia?
2.24.14.127 (
talk) 08:23, 8 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Perhaps you could link to the exact time where she states "it's not the 12 May 1968 and it's actually the 5 December 1969"? How would you reconcile that claim with all the other good sources we have for 12 May? Thanks for not edit waring. At one stage she says "I'm 18 months older" - how do you explain that? The correct venue for any further discussion is at
Talk:Catherine Tate. Regards.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 08:59, 8 May 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Martinevans123, In the 2018 video, Catherine herself says regarding her birthdate that "it's alway wrong on Wikipedia" and when wished happy 50th she says "It's next December, but thanks". Does that not prove to you that her birthday is in December 1969? I mean it really doesn't take a genius to work out the maths.
2.24.14.127 (
talk)
2.24.14.127 (
talk) 08:11, 9 May 2022 (UTC)reply
So here's
the video, uploaded by someone called "a fan of catherine tate." It shows footage from a Good Morning Britain interview with Kate Garraway from 6 April 2018. It proves nothing. Tate's actual words are "No, it's always wrong on ...." In my opinion, it demonstrates only Tate's sarcastic humour. If you want to discuss this topic any further you can go to
Talk:Catherine Tate. I mean it really doesn't take a genius to find that page.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 08:38, 9 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Russian government sources, who spoke on condition of anomie, said the journalists involved in the incident had decided to get away from it all and move from Moscow to northern Siberia, where they would be provided with housing. –
Sca (
talk) 14:15, 10 May 2022 (UTC)reply
However, not with food. –
Sca (
talk) 15:12, 10 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Then the biggest HOO-RAH goes to Egor Polyakov and Alexandra Miroshnikova: "Polyakov, who works as a business reporter at Lenta, said he and his colleague Alexandra Miroshnikova published more than 40 articles critical of the Kremlin and its actions in Ukraine. The articles have since been taken down, but can be accessed through a web archive tool." Yes, the bodies of the dead Russian soldiers seem to have been just abandoned. The Ukrainians, who have been going around collecting them and putting them in body bags, have said there are "too many to count".
Martinevans123 (
talk) 14:34, 10 May 2022 (UTC)reply
I feel like this thread needs the video of Putin singing "
Blueberry Hill", but I can't be arsed to find it.
Softlavender (
talk) 07:01, 14 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Not sure I'd want to attend
that karoke party. The
Vladimir Putin article currently says: "... it is impossible to study brain disease or mental illness based on video clips alone." But I'd argue that ordering the slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians, in an attempt to "de-Nazify Ukraine" is ample evidence of a very fundamental and deep-seated mental illness.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 11:04, 14 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Putin dying
Someone reverting your good edit at Putin page.
ErnestKrause (
talk) 00:56, 15 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Apparently we can't include it as Joe Biden doesn't have dementia. Let's just hope Putin dies soon. Might even make Main page.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 08:54, 15 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Updating now to 18 May morning headlines here that he has had new surgery:
[45][46].
ErnestKrause (
talk) 14:31, 18 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Consider the sources. --
Sca (
talk) 15:19, 18 May 2022 (UTC)reply
May 2022
Hello and
welcome to Wikipedia. Constructive contributions to
Wikipedia are appreciated, but
a recent edit of yours to the page
Margaret Thatcher has an
edit summary that appears to be inadequate, inaccurate, or inappropriate. The summaries are helpful to people browsing an
article's history, so it is important that you use edit summaries that accurately tell other editors what you did. Feel free to use
the sandbox to make test edits. "ding-dong" is not appropriate. ‑‑
Neveselbert (
talk·contribs·email) 01:36, 16 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks so much for the welcome. But not sure I'm encouraged to stay. So I added some basic details about the new
statue of Thatcher, in Grantham, and your edit summary, when you reverted it a minute later, was "completely irrelevant". That summary also appears to be "inadequate, inaccurate, or inappropriate."
Martinevans123 (
talk) 07:22, 16 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, about the statue, not
Ding-Dong! The Witch Is Dead, which your edit summary implied. Bearing
WP:RESPONSIBLE in mind, I took your summary the wrong way, and I apologise for responding with an edit summary that could appear hostile. (Personally I've been diagnosed on the spectrum and often I react to things written literally, in the heat of the moment, and in that particular instance I took offence which I realise now you didn't intend.) ‑‑
Neveselbert (
talk·contribs·email) 03:55, 17 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you for your apology and for your explanation. One might imagine "ding-dong" to be the sound of eggs hitting a bronze statue. Although I guess they were probably rotten ones, not hard-boiled. I see the eggeeegger has now been
named and shamed.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 08:49, 17 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Eggee? Another questionable
coinage. --
Sca (
talk) 16:23, 17 May 2022 (UTC)reply
I suspect they were too chicken. (US humor at its least Leviticus.) --
Tryptofish (
talk) 22:26, 17 May 2022 (UTC)reply
obligatory Jewish joke
Three sons of a Yiddishe Mama left their homeland, went abroad and prospered. They discussed the gifts they were able to give their ageing mother:
Joseph, the first son, said, "I built a big house for our mother."
Adam, the second, said, "I sent her a Mercedes with a driver."
Daniel, the youngest, said, "You remember how our mother enjoys reading the Bible? Now she can't see very well. I sent her a remarkable parrot that recites the whole Bible—Mama just has to name the chapter and verse."
Soon thereafter, a letter of thanks came from their mother:
"Joseph," she said, "the house you built is so huge. I live only in one room, but I have to clean the whole house." "Adam," she said, "I am too old to travel. I stay most of the time at home so I rarely use the Mercedes. And that driver is a schmuck. But Daniel," she said, "the chicken was delicious!"
Hello Ragnarok861. Did you see my edit summary? I had thought it was quite self-explanatory: "suggest you take this to Talk page; it's now only May 2022 and this appears to be
WP:CRYSTAL". I made the same revert, with same summary, to your similar edit at
Bernard Cribbins. I don't think it's appropriate to add items to Filmography tables if they don't exist. Probably best to discuss at the respective Talk pages. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 11:31, 17 May 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm sorry, but Catherine Tate's return to Doctor Who is official and if you don't believe me, you can check for yourself on the official Doctor Who website (doctorwho.tv) or the official Doctor Who Twitter account.
Ragnarok861 (
talk) 14:45, 17 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Tate's return to Doctor Who is not the issue. That can be fully explained in the text, with some suitable source(s). But the episodes in which she will appear do not yet exist. So they can't be added to any table of Filmography. If you need to discuss further, the appropriate venue is
Talk:Catherine Tate. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 15:33, 17 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Oh sorry, now I understand. My mistake.
Ragnarok861 (
talk) 06:04, 18 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Loudon Wainwright III wiki page
Hi--
I am writing on Loudon Wainwright's behalf. The sentences I removed from the page are false, even though there are "citations" for some of them. The LW3 quote about "Hitting You" is taken out of context and is misleading; it is a problematic, at best, to call that situation "assault." Martha Wainwright has said inaccurate things to reporters over the years; the fact that they were published in newspapers (which are not fact-checked) does not make them true. Loudon has written detailed firsthand accounts of Kate McGarrigle's first pregnancy, "Hitting You," and other topics described in the WIKI entry in his memoir "Liner Notes."
69.2.124.29 (
talk) 16:14, 17 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Many thanks for the information, but you will need to raise your concerns at
Talk:Loudon Wainwright III, not here. And I should also point out that "writing on Loudon Wainwright's behalf" is not regraded as a
WP:Reliable source. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 16:17, 17 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Hello--
I really don't know how to do this. I'm a journalist, not a Wiki editor. Can you explain where to put this info? Would rather not get attorneys involved.
69.2.124.29 (
talk) 16:24, 17 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Please copy over to
Talk:Loudon Wainwright III. Note: please don't even mention the possibility of a legal threat or you are likely to be blocked. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 16:41, 17 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Edit warring at the article, to try and get your version in, is also a way to get quickly blocked. Regards.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 16:50, 17 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Pace changer ...
Here's
something to get your editorial juices flowing again. –
Sca (
talk) 15:24, 18 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Sergey Lavrov, serial liar, apologist for child-killer Putin
Putin issued nuclear order in response to
Liz Truss comments,
Kremlin says: "There were unacceptable statements about possible conflict situations and even confrontations and clashes between Nato and Russia," said Mr
Peskov. "I will not name the authors of these statements, although it was the British foreign secretary."
Can you plese consider
Cathal Coughlan (musician) for noming at RDs. Dont know how all that works, and the article should be finished by early afternoon tomorrow, more or less. I would very much like your help.
Ceoil (
talk) 02:49, 24 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Have nominated. A few sources needed in the Discography section, but otherwise looking reasonable.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 07:25, 24 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Nice one, and thanks a bunch.
Ceoil (
talk) 09:11, 24 May 2022 (UTC)reply
On 24 May 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Cathal Coughlan (musician), which you nominated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the
candidates page.
Black Kite (talk) 18:45, 24 May 2022 (UTC)reply
On 27 May 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Alan White (Yes drummer), which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the
candidates page. —
Bagumba (
talk) 16:40, 27 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Hi Ipigott. I'm reluctant to edit anything connected with
BoJo the Clown at the moment. And FT seems to be subs only? I might join in later if I'm feeling particularly vindictive.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 09:49, 29 May 2022 (UTC)reply
I quite understand but I see
Andrew Davidson has already made a start. Let's see how it goes.--
Ipigott (
talk) 11:19, 29 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Improvement suggestion.
Hi, Martin.
Can you advise how and where to make improvement suggestions for Wikipedia? Basically I have an idea I'd like to put forth to add a tab or flagging option to the interface to remind regular account holders of things to do on Wiki. they may otherwise forget. Regards,--
Kieronoldham (
talk) 21:01, 29 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Lol thanks. You know I focus largely on one article at a time, Martin. Basically I respond to suggestions from one other user to add entries or references etc. to articles, but sometimes I forget the commitment and he sends me reminders if a day or two pass by without my assisting him. I just thought some simple notification tab method would remind me. I'll add the suggestion shortly. Thanks again.--
Kieronoldham (
talk) 21:41, 29 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Kablammo, thanks for the info. I am unable to find an online edition which shows that page. If you have a copy, I suggest you add that page number. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 07:54, 30 May 2022 (UTC)reply
The perch is much more handsome (and much more intelligent, and of much higher moral character). --
Tryptoperch (
talk) 20:41, 1 June 2022 (UTC)reply
The perch doesn't spend its life telling lies and trying to "de-Nazify" a peace-loving neighbouring shoal of bream.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:16, 1 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Well, in North America perch of this sort are considered 'trash' fish -- hence the involuntary subliminal association with said
person. Yes, you can fry them, but they're not worth the effort. --
Sca (
talk) 13:10, 3 June 2022 (UTC)reply
"North Korea's Kim Jong Un sends
congratulations to Queen Elizabeth on Jubilee."
– Sources at Windsor report the
Queen said she was "just tickled pink" by the unexpected overture from Pyongyang, which arrived by missive-bearing
missile from the
DPRK. –
Sca (
talk) 13:39, 3 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you for all these! - Ukrainian peace music is
"on" today, with the conductor! - Pentecost (on last Sunday and Monday in Germany) brought a rich harvest of great music in two church services (one with me singing in choir) and two concerts with my brother in the orchestra, - four pictures I took besides the symphonic one. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 14:49, 8 June 2022 (UTC)reply
perhaps the question wasn't clear? - I didn't mean which one of the titles given, but a song you'd like to sing with me? Or is it that one? --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 21:13, 14 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Asking my friends - in 2020 - to give me a song for my birthday was looking to meet new song, - such as
Meermenschen. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 21:58, 14 June 2022 (UTC)reply
My song collection is especially rich,
look, and the hall where I first heard
DFD,
Pierre Boulez and
Murray Perahia. Do you find the baby deer in the meadow (last row)? .. and my friend the bass player --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 22:31, 20 June 2022 (UTC)reply
today: a song about getting through the night, after plenty of music over the weekend --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 21:32, 27 June 2022 (UTC)reply
You've got more mail. –
Sca (
talk) 12:28, 9 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks. "
Ukraine's former prime minister
Yulia Tymoshenko has described Vladimir Putin as “absolutely rational, cold, cruel, black evil” and claimed he is determined to go down in Russian history alongside
Stalin and
Peter the Great." Nice one.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:37, 9 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Reply from u:Lmharding
User:Lmharding has replied at
my talk page to your post at
User talk:Lmharding where you noted that they should retract or report their accusation,
made here. Their response states that you and I "both have contradicted yourselves and hypocritically falsely claimed I was an alt while getting mad at me for just innocently asking...". It does not address their accusation at all.
AukusRuckus (
talk) 11:10, 10 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks for telling me. Their behaviour is quite irrational and disruptive. I see a pattern emerging in all of their edits to various "
LGBT rights in xxxx" articles. As I've just posted at their Talk page, they have two options:
To withdraw the accusation by redacting with a strike-through and clear explanation.
To formally report the accusation at an appropriate venue (
WP:AN/I might be most suitable).
Martinevans123 (
talk) 11:21, 10 June 2022 (UTC)reply
That would only be fair, in my view.
AukusRuckus (
talk) 11:25, 10 June 2022 (UTC)reply
It dioes address it, you take back and cross out your allegation and I'll do the same right after. You first.
Lmharding (
talk) 00:25, 11 June 2022 (UTC)reply
(As usual) it's unclear to whom you are replying. But I have made no allegation. And neither has
AukusRuckus.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 07:48, 11 June 2022 (UTC)reply
AukusRuckus, I've read your summaries at your Talk page and I wholeheartedly agree. If Lmharding refuses o withdraw the accusation of sock puppetry, I also think it's justified to ask others to step in.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 08:53, 12 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Maybe. A kind of result: But then again, not much of one. This was the delightful edit summary for one of four edits they made in the effort to sweep the whole thing off my talk page.
"removed, coordinated harassment campaign".
Some retraction, hey? And we're still at fault.
Then there's this billet-doux: "Statement retracted, now stop spamming me. 04:30, 13 June 2022" left for us on the UAE LGBT talk page. And they're now having a rampage around putting in all the stuff they've been slowed or stopped from doing for a while. Toxic behaviour.
I think I'm not leaving it at this, but I'm very disheartened and am gonna hibernate for a bit. Then I'll come back and see what damage they're doing, and what might be done then (if they haven't been tripped up some other way. We can only hope! But they're relentless, so I won't hold my breath). Thanks for getting stuck in too.
AukusRuckus (
talk) 10:45, 13 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, not exactly any kind of apology. And, as you say, essentially still blaming us. I actually said "... by redacting with a strike-through and clear explanation." No explanation has been provided. I'd strongly recommend that you restore the background that they have deleted from your Talk page, especially that this was in response to a proposed
WP:SPI of their account as well as ours. Regards.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 10:56, 13 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Yep, agreed. As suggested, have restored my page and directed yet another message posted there to them. Fixed a small typo in my earler post here (an unwanted pronoun had slipped in.)
AukusRuckus (
talk) 11:10, 13 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Just looking to see if there was any response to my "June 2022" request for retraction or report at
User talk:Lmharding and I see
this edit by an anon IP, geolocating to Allentown, Pennsylvania. I wonder if they are in any way connected to the named account?
Martinevans123 (
talk) 11:38, 13 June 2022 (UTC)reply
"Same-sex sexual activity is legal in the state" - is this not true of every US state and every country in the world? Well, to be fair, I don't think it is legal in every country in the world, unfortunately. That is part of the problem (both in the world and here on WP!) But you're right: legal in every state. Funny I never noticed that strange line before.
My biggest fan has branched out from their usual round of third world (+Texas) LGBT articles to
LGBT rights in Queensland where they are now popping up to add "Almost never enforced" for anti-discrimination laws. I wonder how they're so well-informed about so many places, all without the benefit of trivial niceties like, ooh, I don't know ... sources? Now they're in my neck of the woods.
They also just tried to have page protection added
[50] to Texas so they can't be reverted while they're in beddy-byes. Apparently they are the only ones allowed to revert others with impunity. All my nice new info and table insertion down the gurgler ... Oh well </sigh, again>.
AukusRuckus (
talk) 13:03, 26 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Ah yes, of course, thanks for clarifying. It is very one-sided and very draining of effort. I think a report to an admin board is in order.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 13:14, 26 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Sorry, Martin. I'm embarrassed. That was only meant to be a (very) little joke. I hope you did not change the line back because of my poorly communicated humour. I thought you were right to remove.
AukusRuckus (
talk) 06:20, 27 June 2022 (UTC)reply
No worries. By all means remove again. It adds little.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 07:34, 27 June 2022 (UTC)reply
5 million roubles ($88,000) fine for WMF
Reuters: "LONDON, June 13 (Reuters) - The Wikimedia Foundation, which owns Wikipedia, has filed an appeal against a Moscow court decision demanding that it remove information related to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, arguing that people have a right to know the facts of the war."]
Martinevans123 (
talk) 12:42, 13 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Vlad explains that it's not an invasion, but rather a "special military operation" -- akin to the
Special Treatment practiced by his
mentors in disinformation. --
Sca (
talk) 14:50, 13 June 2022 (UTC)reply
On 15 June 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Bruce Kent, which you nominated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the
candidates page.
PFHLai (
talk) 19:02, 15 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Many thanks for your improvements, PFHLai.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:14, 15 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Hard to over-estimate what this guy and his band mean to Welsh music lovers, Welsh people in general. 25 years since Word Gets Around was released through
V2. And now two sell-out gigs, to 60,000 people at the
Millennium Stadium, the second broadcast live (with unbelievably good sound) on
BBC Two. Just glorious.
[52]Martinevans123 (
talk) 20:52, 18 June 2022 (UTC)reply
On 23 June 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Dom Phillips, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the
candidates page. SpencerT•C 16:08, 23 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Many thanks. Glad it got posted just in time.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 16:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Hello andySmith. I would not be surprised if there was an obscure and arcane MoS rule about that, although I understand that when the name comes immediately afterwards, the office title takes capitals. I was simply following what appears in the text at that article. In that particular case,
Oliver Dowden gets named first, so I guess the MoS sub-rule doesn't apply and you were correct. As if it's a problem. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:21, 26 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Neil Parish
Thank you for editing the sentence I wrote on Neil Parish's page regarding his feelings towards his colleagues. I wasn't trying to change what was written in the source and I thought what I'd written reflected it - so I appreciate you altering the sentence to amend my mistake :)
92.10.13.209 (
talk) 21:58, 27 June 2022 (UTC)reply
No worries. Your version was perfectly fair. One always has to avoid copyright violation by just copying text. But it's often safer to stick to what the source says. I am no fan of disgraced Tory MPs, and I think Parish may have been very foolish. But I don't think he was corrupt, or a devious criminal or a twisted misogynist. I feel sorry that his 12 years in Parliament came to be wasted so quickly.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 22:10, 27 June 2022 (UTC)reply
2022 "Fake news" , War Crimes Hall of Fame and General Cretin Corner
27 April 2022:
Margarita Simonyan, editor of state broadcaster RT, says: “Either we lose in Ukraine or the Third World War starts ... I think World War Three is more realistic ... Knowing us, knowing our leader, Vladimir Vladimirovch Putin, the most incredible outcome that all this will end with a
nuclear strike seems more probable to me than the other course of events." A male panellist then responds: "But we will go to heaven, and they will simply croak."
Denis Pushilin,
Head of the Donetsk People's Republic since 2018 said that
Aiden Aslin, a British man sentenced to death by a Russian proxy court for fighting in Ukraine,
would be executed saying: "They came to Ukraine to kill civilians for money. That's why I don't see any conditions for any mitigation or modification of the sentence." Aslin told his family his captors said there had been no attempt by UK officials to negotiate on his behalf.
27 June 2022: Dmytro Lunin, Governor of the Poltava region said 13 people were dead and 56 people were injured. A shopping mall in Kremenchuk with over 1,000 people inside.
Vladimir Putin - murderer, terrorist, war criminal.
On 17 July 2022
Russian Armed Forces launched a
cruise missileattack on the Ukrainian city of
Vinnytsia in central Ukraine, killing at least 22 people, including 3 children, and injuring at least 100 others. According to authorities Russians fired four
Kalibr cruise missiles fired from a submarine in the
Black Sea.
Indeed; apparently Hope has explained that Noel Coward wrote that for her (hence her name in the lyrics). I can't stop listening to/watching this. Would like to see/hear more from her.
Softlavender (
talk) 00:20, 1 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Your edit to
Christopher Pincher has been removed in whole or in part, as it appears to have added
copyrighted material to Wikipedia without evidence of
permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read
Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials for more information on uploading your material to Wikipedia. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images—you must write using your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously, and persistent violators of our copyright policy will be
blocked from editing. See
Wikipedia:Copying text from other sources for more information. You have been warned before, I note, and clearly
with this diff you simply copy/pasted from
https://www.christopherpincher.com/about-chris Please ensure this does not become a habit as you could then find your editing rights removed.Nick Moyes (
talk) 22:05, 30 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Subtle. Perhaps you can offer a re-write if those facts
here? And you have reverted all those other copy edits that I made, afterwards, to other sections. Perhaps you can think of some paraphrases for his list of favourite authors? Or remove the quotes from "wine column"?
Martinevans123 (
talk) 22:13, 30 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Nope - that's your job. And, mate: you copied the entire section verbatim from the MPs own page, and so I'm not going to discuss with you individual sentence constructions. I am however simply advising you not to breach our policy on
WP:COPYVIO again. Learning how to put information in your own form of words is an essential skill to develop if you want to add content based upon copyrighted pages. If you can't do that, you might wish to consider finding something else to work on here.
Nick Moyes (
talk) 00:15, 1 July 2022 (UTC)reply
What I do in such cases is sort names by alphabet. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 09:04, 1 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks for the tip. But maybe our
Tory friend purposely listed them in order of preference? Luckily we have all escaped the onslaught from Mr. Pincher's copyright lawyers over this one.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 09:10, 1 July 2022 (UTC) p.s. surprised he doesn't list "member of the
Carlton Club".reply
First, I appreciate that clever
link. I looked at the source, and I have another tip. He cites
Evelyn Waugh.... as among his favourite authors. If you have other things from that source you'd like me to take a look at, I'd be happy to. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 17:09, 1 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Did Waugh write a lot about fish? Seems he certainly knew all about the
Carlton Club. However, I've been told, in no uncertain terms, that all of that stuff that our
"pound shop Harvey Weinstein" reads is irrelevant. Not having much luck with Chris's personal life, am I. But then, I guess,
neither is he.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 17:52, 1 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Well, I'm half American and half human. I thought that Evelyn was a woman. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 17:55, 1 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Sorry I didn't want to appear
transphobic. But I had heard that you were, in fact, born as a mermaid...
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:03, 1 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I think you may have confused Evelyn with
Ethel. "Hey Tryptofish, everyone's staring at your wrasse!" --
Tryptofish (
talk) 18:18, 1 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Purposely or not, the copyvio police doesn't care. Thank goodness in opera, I can always fill lists of of roles by adding the composers' names, or would have lost my editing privileges long ago. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 09:21, 1 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I had forgotten all about the "pound shop
Harvey Weinstein": "Story said that he had been invited back to Pincher's flat, where Pincher massaged his neck and talked about his "future in the Conservative party", before changing into a bathrobe."
Martinevans123 (
talk) 14:17, 1 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Finding refuge ...
Ukraine
refugees flock to Germany, shun UK. –
Sca (
talk) 16:54, 30 April 2022 (UTC)reply
You funny old thing you! I would be affectionately ruffling your hair and smooshing your lovely chubby cheeks if only this were real life! (Terms and conditions apply, YMMV, not necessarily legal in all jurisdictions) Cheers
DBaK (
talk) 16:56, 3 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I really shouldn't need to remind you, but please try to assume good faith. If you think that the only reason I would remove something from Johnson's article is because I'm a Tory stooge trying to hide bad news, it's probably time to step away from editing for a while. Thanks
SmartSE (
talk) 13:59, 4 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I don't recall describing you as "a Tory stooge trying to hide bad news." If I had said any such thing, I'd certainly want to "step away". I have assumed that you are editing in perfectly good faith, and I'd respectfully request that you extend the same courtesy to me. Entire sections of articles get "tidied away" all the time. As per
WP:BRD it deserves discussion at the Talk page. Very sorry if "some of us are better at leaving our POV at the door." Or should that be congratulations? Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 14:12, 4 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I can't keep up! Going to start needing a précis of events so I don't wake up and find a whole bunch of confusing allusions on Twitter. Do you think Humpty Dumpty is about to fall?
Softlavender (
talk) 03:49, 6 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Seriously is someone keeping score? How many is it now?
Softlavender (
talk) 01:51, 7 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks Gerda! Looks like a lovely evening.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 10:49, 10 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Indeed, and I now have
the complete program and a review. The program was called Salmo! - sadly not in Wiesbaden, perhaps they thought we'd not understand it means psalm! which means sing!. I had noticed that they sang
Psalms 150,
100,
84 and
149. The review image shows the conductor even happier, imagine. It's detailed and all praise but sadly not going beyond Mendelssohn, while we found the late works especially impressive, listen to the 2009
Locus iste by (Welsh) Mealor. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 09:54, 11 July 2022 (UTC)reply
"that" meaning the sacred place? Aberdeen. 500 years - forgot the word. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 10:16, 11 July 2022 (UTC)reply
You put Mealor... did you mean Maelor? choir? Thanks!
Martinevans123 (
talk) 10:19, 11 July 2022 (UTC)reply
You click on Locus iste, find composer Paul Mealor, and choir Tenebrae, YT at bottom, but there are others. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 10:21, 11 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I'd understand if you don't want to reply for a while, but perhaps you'd listen to some music from time to time?
Voces8. I'll cherish your above comment for a long time, putting it in my blushing section. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 11:51, 20 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Gerda, your posts are always welcome. I enjoy listening to music more than most other things. In fact, before to long, I might be taking that up full time. Thank you.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 11:59, 20 July 2022 (UTC)reply
nicely worded, thank you! - here you called me protective cloak in person, and what do I do? off to vacation, and then to a memorial service, back on Wednesday, take care and survive - glad that I see humour returning! remember you'r precious always --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 11:01, 22 July 2022 (UTC)reply
today: birthday music for a friend, after hiking in the Swiss Alps and a funeral with flowers on a bench and a Rilke poem --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 22:01, 28 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Trying to contact you
Hi Martin, hope you’re well. Could I possibly get a Twitter DM from
@stokel or an email to that username at gmail dot com, please? Would love to ask you a Q. Thanks! — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2A00:23C8:5300:CB01:909B:B323:F1B:FACB (
talk) 22:55, 6 July 2022 (UTC)reply
(
talk page stalker) Dear IP, no one wants to reply to random anonymous solicitations. The best way to ask a question of a Wikipedian is to ask on their talkpage; or create a wiki account, enable email correspondence, and then use the "Email this user" link in the left column of their userpages.
Softlavender (
talk) 01:50, 7 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Sorry, don't use
Twitter. As Softlavender says, you are welcome to email, of course. I am a fully paid-up
Grauniad reader. Regards.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 06:50, 7 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Can someone please ping me when
he's moved out of No 10 and someone else has moved in? I'm tired of wondering, searching, reading, re-reading, and re-re-re-reading.
Softlavender (
talk) 00:17, 10 July 2022 (UTC)reply
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
"How Much I Dislike the Daily Mail"
I would rather
eat Quavers that are six week’s stale,
blow dry the hair of Gareth Bale,
listen to the songs of Jimmy Nail,
than read one page of the Daily Mail.
If I were bored
in a waiting room in Perivale,
on a twelve hour trip on British rail
or a world circumnavigational sail,
I would not read the Daily Mail.
I would happily read
the complete works of Peter Mayle,
the autobiography of Dan Quayle,
selected scripts from Emmerdale,
but I couldn’t ever read the Daily Mail.
Far better to
stand outside in a storm of hail,
be blown out to sea in a powerful gale
then swallowed by a humpback whale
than have to read the Daily Mail.
Even if
I were blind
and it was the only thing
in Braille,
I still would not read
the Daily Mail.
Yes, I thought twice about both those points (whether to link the progs, and is/was)! Thanks for your input.
PamD 12:26, 10 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Well done Pam, for such a good and quick article creation. Kind regards.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 12:31, 10 July 2022 (UTC)reply
This sounds like a possible DYK candidate.
Softlavender (
talk) 23:32, 10 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Ah yes.... Did you know...
"... that the
British Poet Laureate has a writing shed which contains a harmonium, a pizza oven, a daybed, books on birdspotting, a decent spread of music cassettes, and an impressive collection of sherry?"
Martinevans123 (
talk) 09:37, 11 July 2022 (UTC)reply
David Pearce
Good Afternoon,
I am enquiring why the legacy section was removed from the Wikipedia page? This is all relevant and has references.
There are other legacy sections on sportsperson on wiki. Can you please explain?
Good afternoon. I assume you are referring to the article
David Pearce (boxer) and to
this edit which has the edit summary "rm all the non-encyclopaedic and unreffed content that keeps creeping in, it's still a fan page packed with trivia, 'quotes', and anecdotes without references." The best place to raise your question is at
Talk:David Pearce (boxer). Kind regards.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 13:33, 12 July 2022 (UTC)reply
An omen?
Does
this 1905 editorial cartoon presage the fate of
Vlad's Russia? –
Sca (
talk) 15:41, 12 July 2022 (UTC)reply
The resemblance is striking, wouldn't you say? --
Sca (
talk) 18:03, 12 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Putin really couldn't hold a candle to Peter the Great, could he.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:05, 12 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Not in terms of killing forced laborers -- estimated at 30,000 to 100,000 in the building of St. Petersburg. --
Sca (
talk) 18:19, 12 July 2022 (UTC)reply
• You've got mail. Hope it's readable at yr end. –
Sca (
talk) 19:43, 13 July 2022 (UTC)reply
He certainly can be a boar. --
Sca (
talk) 13:18, 15 July 2022 (UTC)reply
No quarter
"Four-year-old
Liza killed by Russian attack on Vinnytsia."
— Obviously an enemy of the
people. –
Sca (
talk) 19:20, 15 July 2022 (UTC)reply
"
Margarita Simonyan, editor-in-chief of the Russian state-controlled media said the individuals targeted in the attack ... were "Nazis"."
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:25, 15 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Figgers. I thought Liza looked an awful lot like a young
Ilse Koch. --
Sca (
talk) 19:30, 15 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Boris Corner
Please do not open if easily offended
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Please, please don't keep doing this, it's easy enough to source. I don't like playing the pity card, but I'm trying to get some serious work done despite my health.
Doug Wellertalk 11:17, 17 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I mean you aren't trying to source. HNN shows that King Tut was used that early. Tilzer is sourced, not sure why you mention him. Jones & Hare have a link to the song, but I don't care if you remove the two. And whu in Hell should I take a break from something I love and gives me a lot of support?
Doug Wellertalk 12:56, 17 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Sorry, I'm not able to provide medical advice. I am wholly unware of your personal circumstances. Not sure what you mean by "Tilzer is sourced." That paragraph also says " "King Tut" became the name of products, businesses and..." Well maybe it did, but there are zero sources there supporting that claim. I've chosen not to remove the claims that are unsourced, in the hope that sources may be found. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 12:59, 17 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I don't need medical advice and I'm out of here.
Doug Wellertalk 13:08, 17 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Martin, I don't know anything about the content dispute, and don't want to, but I'm familiar with what Doug has been going through, and I'd appreciate it – seriously – if you'd cut him a little slack. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 22:57, 17 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks for telling me. It's often very hard to know what other editors are facing. You have my full support,
Doug. Let me know however I can help. Of course I have no issue with Doug, I'm just trying to improve
Tutankhamun#Legacy, in particular the popularity of the name "King Tut". By all means
add anything you can.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 07:49, 18 July 2022 (UTC)reply
You may want to consider using the
Article Wizard to help you create articles.
The page
Sam Smith (English sculptor) has been speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This was done under
section G12 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page appeared to be an unambiguous
copyright infringement. This page appeared to be a direct copy from
http://sam-smith.org/bio/. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images taken from other web sites or printed material, and as a consequence, your addition has been be deleted. You may use external websites or other printed material as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences. This part is crucial: say it in your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators will be
blocked from editing.
If the external website or image belongs to you, and you want to allow Wikipedia to use the text or image — which means allowing other people to use it for any reason — then you must verify that externally by one of the processes explained at
Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials. The same holds if you are not the owner but have their permission. If you are not the owner and do not have permission, see
Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission for how you may obtain it. You might want to look at
Wikipedia's copyright policy for more details, or ask a question
here.
Please do not recreate the material without addressing these concerns, but do not hesitate to add information in line with
Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If you think this page should not have been deleted for this reason, you may contact the deleting administrator, or if you have already done so, you may open a discussion at
Wikipedia:Deletion Review. —
Diannaa (
talk) 20:31, 18 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Sorry if it was not clear that I was not challenging this block. I have tried to offer some explanation below, while seriously considering my position. But if the community doesn't accept that in mitigation, and the consensus is that mentoring is not possible, there not much I can do. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 14:53, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I have removed your Autopatrolled right
Hello Martinevans123. I have removed your Autopatrolled right, due to persistent copyright issues. —
Diannaa (
talk) 20:33, 18 July 2022 (UTC)reply
If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the
guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}. —
Diannaa (
talk) 21:07, 18 July 2022 (UTC)reply
So sorry to have to do this. I have blocked your account, because in spite of numerous repeated warnings and two blocks, you continue to add copyright material to Wikipedia in violation of our copyright policy. You cannot resume editing until you provide a statement describing how copyright applies to Wikipedia, show that you understand our copyright policy, and make a commitment to follow it in the future.
I just want to say that if need be I'll supervise/mentor Tryptofish in supervising/mentoring you. Nothing can go wrong then. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
EEng (
talk •
contribs) 00:18, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
And I volunteer to supervise you. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 08:44, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I need all the help I can get, and EEng needs even more. (Oh wait, I'm not supposed to say anything humorous, because that will encourage Martin to kidnap someone's baby.) --
Tryptofish (
talk) 18:19, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you so much, Gerda. As with Trypto, I really appreciate it. Perhaps I won't give up. But "indefinitely" is quite a long time, isn't it.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 13:10, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Please don't give up! Indefinite means undefined, no more, no less. Showing repentence and - more important - understanding for the concerns could make it short. I however, don't understand the concerns as (while I am aware that in general we have to say everything in our own words) I don't know about your particular crimes. I have seen productive editors driven away over copyvio allegations,
Khazar the worst case I remember, and hope hope hope that you won't be another one. A dear friend and family member died yesterday, to put concerns in perspective. Back then, we fixed the articles Khazar had left, mostly about fighters for human rights. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 13:24, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you, Gerda. Sorry, I'm really not sure any more. Once again, I was trying to add content too quickly. There is nothing like a post at A/N to show what other editors really think of you, so I am watching the comments there with interest. As
valereee has kindly pointed out, this was a "copy-paste-edit-save" i.e. there was actually some "edit" there, where I tried to re-write the original prose and leave out all the material I could not re-write. Obviously I did not try hard enough. I find it incredibly difficult to "paraphrase" lists of facts in chronological order e.g. the galleries where Smith had exhibitions. I also attributed everything of course, probably explaining why I was blocked within five minutes. I'm not sure what percentage of my 205,768 edits have received copyvio warnings. But in this situation, it seems that all of the other edits count for nothing.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 14:26, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I think I understand that much. No more today, choir celebrating end of season. I try to avoid
WP:Great Dismal Swamp, please understand. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 14:38, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
You are very wise to do so, like many, I suspect. I am very sorry to hear about your friend and family member. Yes, that puts everything into perspective.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 14:43, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Martin, I get it. It's tempting to think that by copy/paste/edit, we can come up with something other than copyvio. It's literally almost never true. Copyvio really can't be edited out. Copyvio even includes sentence and paragraph structure; you can't just leave out a few words, replace a few with synonyms, etc. You have to read the passage, then write a summary of what that passage says. It's literally better to just write a whole bunch of choppy straightforward sentences:
Alan Verner Smith was born in 1908 in Southhampton. His father was the captain of a steamboat. He attended boarding school in Jersey. He attended Bournemouth School of Art. He attended Westminster School of Art. He became a gallery assistant in London.
This partially explains Wikipedia's reputation for dry prose.
At some later revision, you can come in and make it prettier, or someone else will.
valereee (
talk) 16:02, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks very much. This is not something I have done "deliberately", just because I have assumed "an unwarranted degree of entitlement." Nor have I done it covertly, without showing my source. It's not helped by the scarcity of source material for Sam Smith. I am genuinely sorry for these breaches. Perhaps it's a shame there's not a separate block just for "adding new material" - I spend increasing amounts time warning drive-by IPs for vandalism, adding Categories, adding internal links, adding External links, etc., etc.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 16:11, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
"This partially explains Wikipedia's reputation for dry prose." Yes, and sometimes very dry and awkward. I often come across such examples in (usually neglected) articles and I always think to myself "Ah, at least there's going to be no copyvio there. That's been deliberately mangled to avoid that." But I very rarely go on to try and "make it prettier".
Martinevans123 (
talk) 11:23, 20 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Another possible explanation, of course, is that the editor didn't really understand the source anyway.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 14:26, 20 July 2022 (UTC)reply
And Gerda is 100% correct, indefinite literally only means 'until you've convinced someone that you are willing and able to try to correct the issue.'
valereee (
talk) 16:12, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Someone has already suggested I take a 6 month holiday. And it seems a
WP:CCI will need to be performed. So perhaps difficult to convince anyone just yet. I thought blocks started off small and got bigger, if needed. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 16:29, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Blocks start out with what's necessary. In the case of something as serious as ongoing copyvio that has been brought up multiple times and hasn't been addressed, an indef is appropriate because it prevents the editor from making further problematic additions before agreeing the issue is worth addressing and agreeing to address it. Short blocks are for short-term issues such as edit-warring, with increasing blocks if the person engages repeatedly as a way to demotivate that behavior in future. The first block might be 30 hours just to stop the current edit-war. The second might be two days. The third might be a week.
valereee (
talk) 16:37, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you so much, Tryptofish, for your kind and practical offer of support, and so swiftly made. I am so grateful to you for being so positive.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 13:08, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Maybe, if you are thinking of taking some time off to reflect about this, that might be a good idea. It doesn't have to be six months, could be three. If, after some time, you feel like coming back (not necessarily that coming back is worth the aggravation), you could make a clear and sincere statement of a desire to fix things, and include in it a desire to do it under the conditions of my offer (which will still stand, assuming I continue to think that my being here is worth my own aggravation!). My impression is that this would be workable. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 17:08, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Some unsolicited advice: take the articles that were just deleted/flagged as copyvio and rewrite them without any copyvio and post the rewrites here. Then, assuming there's a CCI, go through your own CCI and flag/fix any additional problematic articles you find. Clean up after yourself, as it were, and they'll unlock the cell.
Levivich (
talk) 17:23, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you, Levivich, for making such a useful and practical proposal. I could certainly have go at that. It sounds like everyone would be a winner from that. And the interminable watchlist would be no distraction.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 17:29, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I think Levivich's idea is an excellent one, and one that's probably better than my own (although they could potentially be combined in some way). --
Tryptofish (
talk) 17:38, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
You get to review my Sandbox drafts?
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:00, 19 July 2022 (UTC) p.s. thanks - you're not allowed to thank people when you're blocked.reply
I could, if you agree to it. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 18:05, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Oh, wait, reviewing your Sandbox drafts isn't a euphemism for something dirty, is it? Please note that the humor-impaired nitwits at ANI will see my comment as undermining the very serious nature of the problem and will encourage Martin to go on a crime spree. Yes, that's me (and not Martin) being disrespectful, and screw anyone who wants to block me for it. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 18:23, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
As you know, I'm not allowed any humour at the moment. By the way... last night it was about
30° here, when it's usually about 20°. And it still is. No-one needs "water cool and soapbox", do they.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:31, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Here where I am, in the colonies, it's 89°. (And we're illiterate about the metric system.) --
Tryptofish (
talk) 18:35, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I pressed the newfangled Reply button and now have no idea what I am editing. Soz man. I just wanted to say that I am fully in support of anything that gets Martin back to editing absolutely as soon as possible, like preferably yesterday. Walk of Shame anyone? I will bring popcorn.
Also, this: As you know, I'm not allowed any humour at the moment ... my word, what a gift to the satirist. I am merely going to allow myself a dignified titter, and move on rapidly. Best to all,
DBaK (
talk) 08:00, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Ooh,
backatcha, and then some.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 17:59, 19 July 2022 (UTC) p.s. thanks - you're not allowed to thank people when you're blocked. reply
I'd like to add my name to the 'don't want you to stay blocked' list, and I'll be happy to help that come about if I can. I personally don't think you need a six month break - what would that achieve, except us all getting a bit older? - I think you need to demonstrate that you have got the message, that you accept that this stuff matters, that you have caused a lot of unnecessary work for other people who will handle the CCI, and that in future if you're not sure whether something is OK or not, you'll ask for advice before hitting the 'publish changes' button. I could write screeds about how I go about avoiding copyvio, but I'll hold off until you tell me you want to hear it.
GirthSummit (blether) 18:04, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Of course, your advice would be totally welcome. But there really is no rush from my point of view. One editor at A/N seems to be saying that I need to have "a chance to calm down." Thanks for your support and encouragement.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:12, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I'll put something together over the next couple of days - not much time tomorrow, I'm driving down from Scotland (where I have been avoiding the hot weather) to York, but I'll get onto it ASAP. The main thing that people are going to want to see from you in an unblock request is a clean acknowledgement that there have been problems, and a confirmation that you want to fix them.
Don't argue the toss about every comment made at ANI. Some of them might be bollocks, but there are problems that need to be fixed, and which need not to happen again.
GirthSummit (blether) 18:37, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I certainly won't "argue the toss about every comment." When you're blocked, your right of reply is largely gone. I just read some comments and thought, "wow, how long have they had such a grudge against me? Nice time to tell me". That's all. Thanks again for your fair advice.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:16, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I don't really think that they have been harboring a grudge against you. I don't think it's something that personal. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 21:02, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Many people now seem to be very keen to review all my previous content addition and to correct my mistakes, which can only be a good thing.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:21, 19 July 2022 (UTC) ... although I didn't realise that stuff inside double quotation marks, taken from a
WP:RS, with full attribution, could be cooyvio.reply
To take from the book Tryptofish is a Nitwit by Jimmy Wales (Bomis Press, 2020):
"Tryptofish was born in the Atlantic Ocean, part of a spawn of 670 fry. Two very ugly fish were the parents, and the spawn happened in 1776." (in quote marks, followed by an inline cite to the book)
is a copyvio, despite the quote marks and the inline cite. But:
According to Jimmy Wales, "Tryptofish was born in the Atlantic Ocean, part of a spawn of 670 fry. Two very ugly fish were the parents, and the spawn happened in 1776." (with in-sentence attribution, the copied part in quotes, and followed by an inline cite to the book)
is not a copyvio, because it's completely clear where it came from. The difference is putting the "according to" part directly in the sentence. However, it's shoddy writing to quote it at that much length. So:
Tryptofish's parents were unattractive. Tryptofish was part of an Atlantic Ocean spawn, in 1776. There were a total of 670 fry in the spawn. (with an inline cite to the book, and no quote marks)
is the correct way to do it. Although it inevitably repeats some words and phrases from the source, it's arranged in a fashion that does not copy from the source. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 18:46, 19 July 2022 (UTC) Revised. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 19:03, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
There's also consideration of
WP:fair use when quoting with attribution. We couldn't, for instance, put all of
[57] into quotes and attribute it. In general we quote only that which illuminates in ways we can't by simply paraphrasing.
valereee (
talk) 18:52, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I honestly think I understand that. My creation of
Sam Smith (English sculptor) would have been a lot quicker if I hadn't. But I imagine the consequences would have been just the same.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:06, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Attribution is the bare minimum required, and something that is completely unattributed is clearly a violation, but simply making an attribution can still violate copyright. (I revised the example multiple times, so please make sure you look at the most recent version.) --
Tryptofish (
talk) 19:08, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I was replying to the first part of your comment. I had an e/c. I had thought my text was "arranged in a fashion that did not copy from the source." Evidently not.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:11, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
WP:There is no deadline. Take as much time as you want. Please don't feel overwhelmed. Just take one piece at a time, and don't worry about fixing it all in a short period of time. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 19:30, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Martin, just take a bit of time to process. Don't react now. This can be managed, and there are obviously many folks who are offering to help. It'll look different in a few days. Whatever you do to relax -- a beer, a soak, a cuddle with the pups, a musical interlude, a deep dive into Love Island -- go do that.
valereee (
talk) 20:16, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
What Valereee said (...excluding the Love Island bit). No one can doubt your good faith dedication to WP. That's needed. There are issues to be sorted out, clearly. But have a breather and get back into it.
DeCausa (
talk) 20:36, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
"Wikipedia is so like Love Island in so many ways." - Discuss. I also need a holiday to trim down my watchlist (again) - I think 14,985 items might be too many.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 12:09, 20 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Martin, I so hate to see this block. Your humorous quips area bright spot in an otherwise mundane and sometimes very dark place. I understand there are issues that need to be cleared up and I would and will help where I can as I am on something of a sabbatical from Wikipedia myself. Apparently I have a fundamental misunderstanding of Wikipedia policies and guidelines (I know, shocker) but an unwillingness to correct them when provided with "accurate information". The last part is the kicker. I gave an opinion, something given every day here. I still stick to my opinion but I respect consensus. I made an argument. The argument was rebutted by others who saw it differently. The statement that I am unwilling to do anything is the part I take an affront to. I would never characterize another good faith editor as having a fundamental misunderstanding of anything seeing as policies are so vague and change based on the consensus in any specific discussion. That's the beauty of Wikipedia. In many cases (not necessarily yours), you can be on the "wrong" side of a discussion on one article and argue the same point on another and be on the "right" side. I digress, take your break. Evaluate your situation. Make the corrections you feel are necessary. Come back to us and incorporate them with the help of those in the community that enjoy your contributions as well as your company. We need you here. Can you imagine how lost Tryp would be ( like a fish outta water)? But seriously, come back to "Love Island". --
ARoseWolf 13:43, 20 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Ah RoseWolf, I can't thank you enough... in fact, I can't "thank" you at all, because I'm blocked. I "bumped into" another long time editor, the other day, someone who I have always respected. I had not seen them around for a few months and had assumed they had retired. Felt sorry. Then I discovered why - they are currently blocked for 6 months for copyvio. Small world. I felt even more sorry.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 14:31, 20 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Your "thanks" is appreciated no matter what avenue it comes by. I definitely feel sorry for the loss of countless former editors who had a great impact on the encyclopedia during their time here. I can't excuse or downplay the reasons for why they are no longer here but I can empathize. Tbh, I'm also a little jealous that some of them have been able to move on and not really think about this project. I do this when I am on an extended stay away, like for winter, but I genuinely care about the project and editors here, whether we have agreed or disagreed. That being said, perhaps one day I will just give myself a personal block and join those that have moved on, if for nothing else then personal health. My hope and wish for you is that mentorship is an option and you agree to where you can get clarity and begin to fix the issues that lead to the block. --
ARoseWolf 18:24, 20 July 2022 (UTC) --edited 18:26, 20 July 2022 (UTC)reply
There is now a proposal at
WP:AN, to change the indef block to a p-block from mainspace. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 23:05, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Section break
The CCI has been opened at
Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/20220720. The 130k edits you've made to mainspace will be surveyed and then pasted onto that page, it'll look something
like this, although there shouldn't be nearly as many subpages. The vast majority of the listed edits won't be copyright violations, and there will be no mass reversions of your edits. Edits that aren't copyright violations will be marked with N and nothing you added will be removed or otherwise tampered with. That means references, templates, copyedits, reverts, external links and other sorts of minor edits will be ignored. Pages with copyright issues will be marked with Y and content too close to sources will be removed/rephrased and problematic quotes will be fixed. The CCI hasn't been filled out yet because of the large edit count, but once it is a page like
Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/Dr. Blofeld CCI cleanup could be created, in order to coordinate a cleanup. I coordinated the Blofeld cleanup, which was a success and the CCI (which was the largest ever at the time) was finished in about a year; you have less edits, so a concentrated cleanup should go quicker. If you have any further questions about it, please ask me.
Hello Moneytrees. Thank you very much for your very clear explanation. And thanks also for those Copypatrol reports, which are very useful. Perhaps you could explain here how my having a p-block from mainspace, instead of an indef block, would affect me. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 17:47, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I'd then be able to make an informed decision, if it were to be offered. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 20:56, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Also, I notice in the
Concorde report, that no distinction is made between free text and directly quoted speech. So is that quoted speech part of the coyvoio? Is all quoted speech potentially a copyvio? How do you tell? Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:13, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
If you were p-blocked, you would be able to edit everywhere except (article) and/or Draft: space- you can still create pages in other spaces (such as rewrites in your userspace), you could comment at talk pages, the CCI, and noticeboards etc since those are in the "talk:" and "Wikipedia:" namespace. Copypatrol simply flags significant overlap in recent edits with other sources, so it sometimes picks up on things that aren't issues like larger quotes or lists, so not everything it highlights is a violation. The quotes in the Concorde edits aren't really the problem, it's more the text surrounding it- "Lord Heseltine revealed that as Minister for Development he was involved in a series of embarrassing wrangles over..." etc. The actual quotes, "That is probably right. But if you have your hands tied behind your back..." and the "next to nothing" are ok.
Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 22:52, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you Moneytrees for that very useful clarification. It's a shame that a p-block is not a possibility. Even though, as someone had said at A/N, "it's shit work, firmly in the no fun zone", it might have allowed me to help clean up past mistakes and to actually learn the exact requirements for copyright compliance. I'd be happy to have my editing restricted to only doing that for a few months - or even for as long as it took. It's beginning to look like copyvio is not a binary concept, but a question of degree, that involves some kind of subjective judgement. But it 100% clear that some kinds of editing actions like copy-and-paste, even with adjustments, are just not permitted. However, I'm not sure how I would even be permitted to help "clean up" - as soon as someone spots any copyvio, it has to be immediately removed and usually revdel'ed? With no access to article space, I would not even be able to remove it. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 10:35, 22 July 2022 (UTC)reply
You being able to edit the CCI would ideally let you point out potential issues easier; as an example, commenting about any issues you know of under a listing. This can be seen at
the Hongqilim CCI. Also, any cited books/other hard to access sources you still would be helpful.
Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 05:09, 23 July 2022 (UTC)reply
If it were to happen, you'd be able to edit your sandbox, as opposed to putting drafts on your talk page. But I need to tell you that, at this point, it has zero chance of being offered. I think it's pretty much final that the block will stay indef for now. Take as much time as feels right to you (does not have to be a specific number of months, despite some people talking about six months), and then see what you might want to ask for. No hurry. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 21:06, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I see. I'm not sure what the practical difference would be, apart from cluttering up the talk page a bit? I guess if I ever mistakenly posted copyvio material here, I'd get TPA removed. But if Sandbox access is equally controllable, I'd guess that access would also be allowed/ denied if I posted it there instead? Both are equally visible, except Sandboxes are not watchlist-able? But thanks for asking anyway. I had thought it might be a route for me to help clean up any of the copyvios revealed in the CCI. Perhaps it's all too cumbersome. I'm surprised that people are already deciding what should be done before the CCI has been concluded. But then I am wholly ignorant of the processes that are laid down for these circumstances, as should be quite obvious by now.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:34, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Yeah, maybe that doesn't matter. (It would also let you communicate on other people's talk pages, and give input on article talk pages, but I didn't think that's what you were asking.) About the process, and about TPA, one thing to be aware of is that the convention about TPA is that it is specifically for asking about the sanction or appealing it or working on fixing the problem, not for general discussion. As time goes on, please be aware that some people might increasingly want to jump on you about that. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 22:07, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Look, I'm pretty sympathetic to Martin's plight but the exchanges between the two of you make me wonder. If Martin wants to come back (which, yes, take time to think how he feels about that) it's not about what the mechanisms for what that might be. He's only going to come back if he can absolutely demonstrate he understands
WP:COPYVIO. Really, don't worry about length of ban, p-blocks, mentoring etc etc. If you want to come back, only think about how you can master COPYVIO (because clearly you currently don't) and then show that you have that mastery. That's my 2 cents anyway.
DeCausa (
talk) 21:24, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, I agree. But I thought just adding a glib statement in a request for unblock would convince no-one, especially not those who have already made comments like "come back in 2032". I had thought folks were suggesting a mechanism whereby understanding of copyvio was actually demonstrated by proposed text. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:41, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Honestly, don't think about the mechanism for demonstrating understanding of copyvio at this point. It's too early. Ignore the siren voices. Just put all your efforts (if you want to come back) into understanding it. You don't actually need anyone else for that (IMHO). Once you've got that under your belt, you can worry about the mechanism then.
DeCausa (
talk) 21:55, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
DeCausa (not Martin), about the exchanges between us two, I'm just trying to help, and I would have thought that's OK. But you make a good point about focusing on the substance rather than on the process. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 22:01, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Yeah, I know. I expressed that too harshly.
DeCausa (
talk) 22:05, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks.
As you can imagine, I'm a little sensitive about that today. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 22:10, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Hi Martin, do you know about
WP:EARWIG? You probably do since you have worked on DYK items. Anyway, I thought I'd mention it because it's a good way to check your work and prevent copyvios. Cheers mate, I hope you get out of wiki-jail soon.
Softlavender (
talk) 03:07, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Hi Softlavender. Hope you are well. Yes, of course, I have it in my Sandbox and I have used it many times in the past (both in search mode and in compare mode), although obviously not quite enough times... As I was composing
Sam Smith (English sculptor) in my sandbox, I remember thinking, "what I should really do is save this as a draft in this sandbox and run an earwig check against the website material." And then I thought, "if it is copyvio, then I'll probably have to get it rev-del'ed by an admin (as happened with
Philippe Chaperon in 2019). And then I thought, "yeah I know which words are gonna be the same, anyway and some of those are just plain facts, which I can't paraphrase anyway...I'll just save it to main space and take out the suspect bits in a minute" and "oh, my god, this house is like an oven...". Not many seconds later to be distracted by something that looked more urgent on my too-big watchlist... and hey presto...I'm blocked. I think someone at A/N has called me lazy. In this case they are 100% right. And sorry if this little explanation looks just like a
Government minister resignation speech, but "dems the facts".
Martinevans123 (
talk) 11:52, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
p.s. why is the Sandbox open to public view?
Martinevans123 (
talk) 12:37, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
DYK is not much fun now that there are too many cooks. But I'm curious how you came to work on this topic as I'd not heard of this interesting chap before. Was it triggered by the
Sam Smith whose death generated confusion and discussion at
WP:ERRORS and
ITN recently?
Andrew🐉(
talk) 16:02, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
In fact his "Bathing Huts" on last Sunday's
Antiques Roadshow, where
Fiona does her "Good, Better, Best" with expert Chris Yeo. It was first shown last February, and I had meant to do it then. I had heard of him in the 1990s, but I can't remember how. I was particularly interested in his
automata.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 17:27, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I've not watched that show since the good old days of
Arthur Negus as The Repair Shop's format of restoring old junk is more to my taste. But I checked out your link and the examples were quite charming. "Sheep Shearing Man" was the star of the show and I find that we have
Ron Fuller already. But
Peter Markey was missing so I've made a start on him. That's just a stub but I like starting at that basic level and their meagre prose means that no-one gives you any grief about copyright.
Andrew🐉(
talk) 20:27, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I must invest in more meagre prose. Thanks for finding such great sources for Sam Smith. Arthur was a real institution - but those bars on the windows were inlaid with mahogany.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 20:35, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Hey Martin, I commented early in the AN thread and have been silent since. Maybe I was too harsh in recommending a six month break. I'm not going to
behead a dead horse wrt copyvio as others have offered sage advice. I have
high hopes you come back,
head held high. Best,
Jip Orlando (
talk) 14:38, 22 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Hello again Martin, I will miss you if you remain blocked, and miss you if you are denied usertalk access or access to any non-article space. I urge you, during your wikibreak, to take this situation very very seriously. This isn't the case of a single rogue admin out to get you, and who might later be desysopped or whatever. This is many admins, and many copyvio editors, all telling a similar story. I believe that a cautionary tale can be had at the longterm journey into night of Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ), who in addition to several personality deficiencies was mainly known and reported for endless years for copyvio problems he refused to address or clean up. No matter how many Wikipedians enjoy your company, your editing, and your contributions, if the issue at hand is not adequately acknowledged and addressed and remedied, restrictions and sanctions could stay. From my end, if I may: It's issues like these that have made me realize/decide that my goal on wiki is not quantity of valuable contributions but rather slow and steady and careful less-plentiful contributions that strictly adhere to Wikipedia's sometimes changeable policies and guidelines. Hope that helps. Have a great weekend,
Softlavender (
talk) 07:18, 23 July 2022 (UTC)reply
^ Well said. I think that's excellent advice. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 17:26, 23 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Paraphrasing
Don't know if this is any use, but I notice a commment about the difficulty of paraphrasing. I work in writing and publishing - and yep, paraphrasing can be a pig. My approach is that I never even try. I never use a source via the copy-modify-save method, and every word I write goes in through my keyboard (except if I need a quote, when I always copy-paste to be sure I don't misquote). So here's what I do. Firstly, I read a piece of source text several times until I properly understand it. I then close the text, and make a number of bullet-point notes of the key points (typed from memory, not copy-pasted). I then write some expanded text that explains those points in my own words. I can then check back for errors and omissions, and repeat the cycle however many times I need. The key point is that I never copy source text for modification, and I don't write my words while looking directly at the source text. I hope that might be of some help.
Boing! said Zebedee (
talk) 08:40, 20 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, those are fair points, and I think it does need close attention to checking and verification afterwards. And just work on a small part at a time, for example one historical event. But yes, as you say, there are risks with whatever writing approach we take.
Boing! said Zebedee (
talk) 10:29, 20 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks both for your helpful comments. Yes, there are risks. The risk to me was that I would get blocked, and look what happened. I will be stepping back from the project for a while to reflect on things (and while the CCI is being compiled). I used to think that Wikipedia was in some way a creative enterprise. But I've rather changed my mind. At it's core, it's really not. It's essentially a duplicative process. And there's the central problem: authors and journalists (well the good ones, anyway) choose the exact words and punctuations they do for very good reason, to express exact meanings. If people are not permitted to use those exact words and punctuations, and instead have to paraphrase or re-write, it's highly likely that the meaning will be changed. Whether that change is too much might well be a subjective judgement. The other particular problem that I seem to have, is that there are often sequences of chronological events / facts in sources which I am unable to paraphrase e.g. a list of
someone's favourite authors, where all we can do is change the order from the original source into strict alphabetical order - but even that, of course, might be seen as changing the meaning. Please forgive me if I do not respond to further comments for a while. I've become rather disillusioned with the whole enterprise, not just my particularly mistaken and stupid contributions to it.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 11:41, 20 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Well, bon voyage my good friend. Take all the time you want, and make sure you find plenty of space for things that are fun for you. As I have pointed out many times to others, it's only a website. Not that important in the grand scheme of things, and so many other things are far more important. I understand that the main business here is to make articles useful for our readers, and everything else is secondary. But anyone who cannot also find it in themselves to recognize that all editors are also human beings (well, there's one fish, too), and that we should strive to enjoy one another's company, is emotionally stunted. When the time comes that you feel ready to come back, I hope that you will, and I know that you will find enough good people here who will help. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 18:14, 20 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks. Gosh, that
CCI looks like a lot work to check though. I trust the requesting admin considered the quality and duration of my two previous copyyio blocks before deciding.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:51, 20 July 2022 (UTC)reply
About the CCI, I'll try to help whenever you come back. Until then, I'll let the self-righteous work on it all by their lonesome selves.
--
Tryptofish (
talk) 19:03, 20 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Don't get too mad on my behalf at A/N, Trypto! Folks will start thinking you're as bad as me. And I certainly don't want that! We've all agreed Diannaa was only doing her job and most people agree she's incredibly hardworking and efficient, something I have never been here. She said sorry, which is more than most folks get.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 20:31, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, taking a bit of time off to relax and reassess things is often a good idea. Meanwhile, have one of these...
To all fellow editors who have offered support and advice here, and at the A/N... please imagine
frantic dinging of the "thank you bell". And, if you
don't follow it, many thanks anyway.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:41, 20 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Oh, Martin...😔 those of us who adore you are left with little to say or do short of offering our moral support. I'd offer more if I had more to give, but like Gerda, I too lost a family member - my middle sister died July 16th, and my mood/tolerance levels for WP have been hit and miss. I've been trying to stay focused on improving our experiences here by entertaining & proposing the potential of AI to check our articles, and lessen our work load by creating avenues for prevention. I do have a very plausible AI suggestion for you, though; it's called
quillbot, it works well when used sparingly for a few sentences and very short factual paragraphs. When it's an author's opinion, it's always better to opt for inline text attribution. As you noted above, it's impossible to not copy titles, honors, proper names/locations, etc. but quillbot can help with everything else in between to avoid copyvio. Major hugs, my Wikifriend!
Atsme💬📧 10:39, 24 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Hi Atsme. I'm so very sorry to hear about your loss. I'm not surprised that your enthusiasm for WP may have waned after such a shock for you. My deepest condolences. That quillbot looks very interesting. I wonder can it cope with the intricacies of
MOS:ENGVAR. Yes I agree, it's impossible to not copy titles, honours, proper names/locations, etc. Chronological sequences of factual events are also a challenge. Warmest hugs for you too, Atsme.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 14:59, 30 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Martin - Very sorry to see this, and that I missed it otherwise I would have dropped by earlier to offer support. It’s all very unfortunate, as I know your intentions were sound. And we’ve talked about the challenges of paraphrasing architectural descriptions before. Anyways, look after yourself and hope to see you back here soon.
KJP1 (
talk) 06:26, 10 August 2022 (UTC)reply
Disambiguation link notification for July 19
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited
Henry V of England, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page
Charenton.
and which is it, - the first? --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 12:18, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Who knows? I obviously don't. Thanks anyway.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 13:12, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
In context, it had to be near Paris, not in the Loire, so I fixed it. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 19:35, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
thank you, always learning, now geography of France --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 21:25, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Actually, all I did was read that it happened while he was staying in Paris, and then I found that only one entry on the dab page was near Paris. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 00:01, 20 July 2022 (UTC)reply
CCI Notice
Hello, Martinevans123. This message is being sent to inform you that a request for a contributor copyright investigation has been filed at
Contributor copyright investigations concerning your contributions to Wikipedia in relation to
Wikipedia's copyrights policy. The listing can be found
here. Thank you.
Sennecaster (
Chat) 19:13, 19 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Dang I get startled, each time I come here & Jimbo peaks out from the left side of the screen. Anyways, hope you're doing alright.
GoodDay (
talk) 19:39, 21 July 2022 (UTC) ;)reply
Yes, it's so spooky isn't it. Almost an
unhinged leer, I always think. If only I could pin him down. I am fine thanks, but embarrassed by the amount of "discussion" I have generated at A/N, without the full extent of my crimes even yet evident. Not least to me.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:59, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
If only you could manage it, so that
Larry Sanger peaks out on the right side ;)
GoodDay (
talk) 20:06, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Actually, at
Roxy the dog's page, where there is what looks like a fly on the screen, I was once leaving a message there when an actual housefly landed on my screen. Talk about cognitive dissonance! (Oh wait, I shouldn't be posting here, because someone at AN is actually counting the number of posts I have ever made here, because counting them is obviously a good use of time, and using it as evidence that this makes Martin a bad person. Sorry.) --
Tryptofish (
talk) 20:08, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Hello Martin, hope you're doing all right, given the circumstances. I was hoping you could help me out with a source at
Church of St Peter and St Mary, Stowmarket. Much of the article is sourced to "Paine, C. St Peter and St Mary's Church, Stowmarket, Official Church Guide, St Peter and St Mary's Church, Stowmarket", but I've been unable to locate a copy of the source. Do you still own a copy of it by any chance? No worries if not, I realize the article was written in 2015. ♠
PMC♠
(talk) 14:14, 22 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Also the church pamphlet cited at
St Peter and St Paul, Checkendon - I realize this was written 2012 so may be more difficult. Again, no problem if not, it just makes things a little easier. ♠
PMC♠
(talk) 14:50, 22 July 2022 (UTC)reply
PMC, following my reply to you at AN, I saw this. I'm glad to see you working with Martin on this. But I think this particularly illustrates what I was trying to say, about how Martin being blocked will actually make things harder for other editors. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 16:33, 22 July 2022 (UTC)reply
How? If he were unblocked, someone else would still have to review the content against the source. ♠
PMC♠
(talk) 16:55, 22 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Hello PMC. Thanks so much for asking about those sources and those articles. I'm really not sure where those pamphlets might be by now. I will try and search. But then I'm thinking about how I could get them (or there content) to you, for a check against the article. Regards.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:57, 22 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Depending on how many pages they are, a scan or even a reasonably hi-res camera phone photo would do in a pinch, just to have a glance and compare the wording. ♠
PMC♠
(talk) 19:22, 22 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Sorry no scanner available and the quality might be a bit poor for a phone photo. I guess I could upload images to Commons. But that might be a breach of copyright? Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:19, 22 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I was thinking by email - if you email me via Wikipedia and I reply, you can attach the images to your reply. But again, no worries if you can't find them or don't have a way to take a legible picture. ♠
PMC♠
(talk) 21:40, 22 July 2022 (UTC)reply
One more request if you have it, sorry - St Mary’s Church Hadleigh - Its History and Treasures, from
St Mary's Church, Hadleigh. Cheers. ♠
PMC♠
(talk) 02:46, 24 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Any luck on these? ♠
PMC♠
(talk) 21:09, 28 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I'll keep searching... In the meantime, you might want to contact
the vicarage. I'm sure they're not that expensive. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:37, 28 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Unfortunately, shipping from the UK to Canada is. ♠
PMC♠
(talk) 21:47, 28 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Ah yes, that might be an issue. Regards.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 15:15, 30 July 2022 (UTC)reply
That wouldn't be permitted at Commons. (And of course you can't upload them locally.) --
Tryptofish (
talk) 21:25, 22 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Hi, hope you're not feeling too upset about all this. I thought I'd ask here, similar to what PMC just did: Do you have access to Dean, Richard, (1988), Gawthorpe Hall - Lancashire, National Trust, ISBN 184359188X, ISBN 978-1843591887 still? (WorldCat says the nearest copy is 5200 miles away :P)
Ovinus (
talk) 06:30, 23 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I just popped to flag
Paul Scott (novelist) but see trials and tribulations. I have no idea what went on, but ping me if you want to chat. Sorry you have got caught up in ANI and all. I would say you are the most tireless of tireless contributors and lasted many years more than me, though we joined about the same time, I think. I hope the weather is warm where you are and you enjoy the sunshine. All best wishes and condolences. Anna (
talk) 16:39, 24 July 2022 (UTC)reply
All the articles you steward are missing you. You covered so much ground! Hoping you will be back on watch sometime very soon. I hope you are getting good rain and enjoying some off-screen time. Sending best wishes and a cool glass of your drink of choice. Anna (
talk) 22:47, 8 August 2022 (UTC)reply
Too hasty
Another cuppa tea
I checked the edit stats for
Bernard Cribbins today and you were at the top of the list of the 700 editors who had worked on the article, ready for this sad day. So, thanks for your
strainin', heavin' and complainin'.
Andrew🐉(
talk) 20:54, 28 July 2022 (UTC)reply
If you are putting these here with the idea of starting to help, I can shoot a dozen questions at you about difficulties I am having in checking diffs, where your clarification would help. Regards,
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 15:42, 30 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Hello Sandy. Thank you for asking. Yes, that was my intention. Perhaps you could start with just one or two? Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:52, 31 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Sorry, I got busy elsewhere and missed this. You frequently add summaries of various BBC Programmes (radio or TV, I guess??)-- things like who appeared on what show, when, using what songs. I don't think any of those audio recordings are now available, but my sense is that you summarized them in your own words so they don't need to be checked. If that's the case, I can start flying through and marking those with a no. Or you might pick a page of the CCI, and go through and identify the BBC Programme summaries, and post a list here so others can verify. That's a simple one to start with; thanks for helping out.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 20:57, 1 August 2022 (UTC)reply
Hi Sandy. I have occasionally added summaries of BBC radio and TV programmes. Some of these may well still be available on line, e.g. via BBC iPlayer. But not all editors might have access to these. Yes, I have tried to summarize them in my own words. Unless these summaries have been written down, I'm not sure from where any potential copyright can arise. I may have used many of the words used in the radio and TV programmes themselves of course and/or in the summaries already written about those programmes somewhere. These are the edits to radio and TV programmes that I can identify from
CCI Page 1:
Are you able to single out one or two that I might be able to actually listen to, to verify my hunch that you summarized these in your own words?
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 22:07, 1 August 2022 (UTC)reply
Or must I have BBC iPlayer to do that? I wonder if I can get that on the apple store ...
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 22:07, 1 August 2022 (UTC)reply
Also, I'm referring to many that look like these:
[58][59]. Those strike me as simple statements unlikely to have copyvio, and you have a lot like them.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 22:11, 1 August 2022 (UTC)reply
I would be very cautious about doing so. A close reading of what it says at the website is that the data from official sources is under Crown Copyright. Our page on Open Government Licence says it uses CCxBY; Wikipedia uses CCxSA. I don't know if BY is acceptable under SA (if you want to look into it, read up on our pages about Creative Commons licensing), but it is prudent to assume not. The website then goes on to say "All original material on British Listed Buildings by British Listed Buildings is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 UK: England & Wales License." So some of the material on the website is CCxBY and some is CCxSA; one has to figure out which is which. (You would also have to look up whether the UK: England & Wales part is OK at Wikipedia; I'll guess that it probably is.)
Once you have done that homework, a more important question is whether you would want to copy anything anyway. I'm pretty sure you already know that I'm going to say don't. There are some very basic things that you can copy without paraphrasing: for example, at
[60], nobody should have a problem if you use the phrase "Grade II Listed Building in Ryde, Isle of Wight" to describe "The Promenade Pier".
I looked at the edit history of
Whatfield and I see that the rev-deled part had to do with St. Margaret's Church. I can't view what was removed, but I see your edit summary of "not sure how this could be better paraphrased to avoid copyvio, these look like architectural facts to me". In hindsight, you needed to have paraphrased better. If it wasn't clear to you how, in the future, please ask (asking me is fine) before making the edit. I went through the website, to see what they say about the church, and they list 100 of them, and I'm clueless as to which one is the right one. So I'll arbitrarily pick this one to illustrate what I mean:
[61]. So part of what I read there says: "C13 origins with C14 tower... and Welsh slate roof." It's two sentences. I just put the beginning and end here, with an ellipsis in between, because that is way too much to copy verbatim. You can look at the passage there. I'll try to paraphrase it here:
"The church is classified as C13, with a C14 tower and C17 buttresses. It is made of stone masonry with brick repairs, and has
ashlar ornaments. The roof is constructed of Welsh slate."
If, for example, you wanted that part for Wikipedia, the way that I rewrote it would be fine. Copying the original would not, and one would be on thin ice, trying to argue on the basis of the licensing. In any case, you would of course have an inline citation to the source, but it's the re-wording, not the citation, that is of the most importance. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 20:49, 1 August 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks for the advice Tryptofish. Yes, I don't think the material at that websote that falls under CCxBY and CCxSA is separately marked. Does a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 UK: England & Wales License mean the information can be reproduced only in England in Wales? I won't know exactly that I wrote about St. Margaret's Church, unless I ask for a copy, which can't be pasted into my Sandbox, as that might be copyvio. I'm not sure whether the inline citation or the rewording is the more important part of an edit. Giving a citation at least allows another editor to check if it's been reworded well enough I guess.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 22:03, 1 August 2022 (UTC)reply
As for the England & Wales part, I'll leave that for you to research. As for where you're not sure, it is absolutely more important to rewrite. Not even close. The inline citation is for
WP:V, but it's never an excuse for a copyvio. It's fine for another editor to check the source for WP:V and accuracy, or for more information, and that's why we require sourcing. But it's no good to expect another editor to check for copyvios. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 22:41, 1 August 2022 (UTC)reply
Hello! I happened to land on your page and realized I can answer this question! You can see
this page for more information. All versions of CCxBY are okay to use on Wikipedia, as long as you provide attribution in the edit summary and in an inline citation. The inline citation should look something like this: <ref>{{cite web |url = example.com |title = example title}} {{
free-content attribution}}</ref>. The England/Wales license can be used anywhere, but it has been tailored specifically to England and Wales (it
references things like the
Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999, and requires that any legal action take place in England/Wales). Luckily, that CCxSA 2.0 license can be "upgraded" to the CCxSA 3.0 license on Wikipedia, so it would not be a copyright violation as long as it was attributed properly.HouseBlastertalk 00:29, 7 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Under these specific circumstances, I think it would be ill-advised to test the principle. Direct copying with attribution invites criticism that the problem is continuing and the excuse is wikilawyering. Rewriting is safe. If there is a compelling reason to copy in the form of a quote, it should be attributed not only via the edit summary and an inline cite, but, additionally, by putting it in quotation marks and including language like 'according to British Listed Buildings, "quote, quote quote". ' Just because one can do something doesn't make it prudent to do it when under scrutiny. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 19:00, 7 September 2022 (UTC)reply
+1. I should have been more clear that I was answering the question, not encouraging you to do so under the circumstances.HouseBlastertalk 23:09, 7 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Tune
Have been blown away by this since I first heard it about 24 hours ago
[62]. You can see some in the piano bar are totally into it, and other sad sacks are reading their phones, the bastards. The sound is so damn visceral; its all attack, all the time
Ceoil (
talk) 02:57, 8 August 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm working on one of the articles you started (Nicholas Evans (artist))and will shortly be uploading it to draft. I can't see much justification for the copyvio report; almost all the information is available from other sources. It wouldn't have taken two minutes to find the BBC source that they said they couldn't find.
Deb (
talk) 15:42, 8 August 2022 (UTC)reply
un peth arall
As far as I can see, you aren't blocked on Welsh Wikipedia, and you would be welcome over there...
Deb (
talk) 13:27, 10 August 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you, perhaps that's enough for the purpose. - Off to concert,
Christoph Eschenbach conducting Bruckner. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 16:11, 20 August 2022 (UTC)reply
more, and one of tonight's Bach concert to follow - will write a
St. Martin thinking of you ;) --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 21:49, 24 August 2022 (UTC)reply
followed now, - you'd have loved the oboist, and the program book didn't even give her name.
Ich habe genug. - Whe Graham Waterhouse was fired as teacher at a music school, he wanted to use the motif for a piece to be performed in their summer concert, but I recommended Elias, instead,
Es ist genug (Mendelssohn). --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 21:56, 26 August 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks Gerda. Found Stardust by
Voces8 on YT. Apparently, was commissioned especially
for them. Quite stunning.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 11:38, 27 August 2022 (UTC)reply
I think the best thing to do now is to get the CCI completed. Until that happens, I think there will remain a bunch of editors (not least
SandyGeorgia) who will be absolutely opposed to any sort of unblock until the enyclopedia is completely cleared of copyvio that originated with Martin, and if there is a significant understanding from Martin about how to avoid introducing copyvio in articles. I miss Martin, I think we all do, but my priorities are towards the integrity of the encyclopaedia, unfortunately.
Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 14:36, 16 August 2022 (UTC)reply
The ping failed but I saw it on my watchlist. I don't know how you came to single me out, as I took no position at the
ANi block discussion. I made comments about how to help at the CCI, how pervasive the problems were, how to catch situations like this sooner, and how to prevent similar going forward. And I asked questions (that I don't believe were ever answered) of those supporting or offering to mentor, as those people did not seem to appreciate just how bad the situation was. I've been on the receiving end of an editor (
LTAUser:Mattisse and her decades worth of socks) who was offered an Arbcom-sanctioned mentorship, and saw how much damage well-meaning mentors allowed to continue--damage that affected both articles and people and processes. Perhaps it wasn't clear; my issue at the ANI was with the cluelessness of those offering to support or mentor. Wikipedia is not meant to be a site for building friendships, or continuing and protecting them, and the reasoning offered by some on the ANI seemed unrelated to the clear problems in Martinevans123 edits. Having worked on the CCI, it is hard to see what the Wikifriends were supporting. I am as concerned about the absence of valuable edits as I am about the copyvio; the latter is a policy issue, but the former makes me wonder what supporters were supporting. Maybe if someone answered that, I'd form an opinion about unblocking, but I haven't yet.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 16:11, 16 August 2022 (UTC)reply
Sandy, it's become abundantly clear to me that I messed up very badly in that discussion, but I would have wanted to answer any questions that anyone asked me. So my failure to realize that you had asked me questions is my fault, for which I apologize. If there is something you want me to explain, please let me know and I'll try. It's not my purpose to convince you one way or the other about what you might or might not support, but I wouldn't want to leave any questions to me unanswered. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 18:40, 16 August 2022 (UTC)reply
Not to worry; I would not have even raised this had I not been pinged, and I am just way too busy (both on Wikipedia and in real life) to revisit that discussion. I'm also not worried about anything in that particular past, or possible mistakes you have acknowledged several times, or needing to be convinced one way or another at this juncture. Time tends to lend clarity on matters of editor behaviors.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 15:43, 17 August 2022 (UTC)reply
Hi SandyGeorgia. Many thanks for your very thorough work ongoing at the CCI. I see that you marked
this edit as "presumed, book, but already fixed". If that is a copyvio, I wonder could you suggest how it might be re-phrased? Many thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 20:03, 25 August 2022 (UTC)reply
(Courtesy pinging
SandyGeorgia) I would say that example isn't actually a big issue; might have only been in the interest of expediency.
Ovinus (
talk) 22:00, 25 August 2022 (UTC)reply
You are valued
Hopefully you can make your comeback...we all need you're intense high quality work. Thank you...
Modernist (
talk) 23:34, 13 August 2022 (UTC)reply
Martin, I hadn't realized you were blocked; it was apparently at AN, not AN/I, so I didn't see. Damn. I hope you can make a successful unblock request. Soon. Miss seeing you around.
Yngvadottir (
talk) 09:24, 14 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks,
Yngvadottir. Judging by some of the comments at A/N and at the CCI e.g. "... he rarely did any real writing", "come back in 10 years...", I'm really
not valued here at all.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 20:20, 15 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Martin, that's simply not true for many of us. People can be cruel. People can be mean. People can also have an opinion. Some like you, some don't. To those that care about you and like you being around you do have value. For those that don't you most likely wouldn't have value no mater what you did. Comments are comments. They have no bearing on your value in the slightest. Don't go down this road, please. Stick in here and stay strong. You still have those that support you. --
ARoseWolf 20:33, 15 September 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm terribly sorry; I genuinely had no idea. I'm a bit of a ghost here these days. But in addition to what ARoseWolf says, look at the section at the bottom. I'd love to see you post a successful unblock request soon, and I note that you have been working with Tryptofish, especially, to analyse your article additions and establish that you have an adequate understanding of copyvio. (I have worked mostly in different areas where I don't often want to add a string of names or other such specifics, but I'd add the advice that the best way to avoid overly close paraphrasing is to summarise instead of paraphrasing.) It's up to you when you feel ready to apply to be unblocked—at which point I looked for the discussion at AN and established that you are not community blocked/banned—but you're on the right path and yes, I and others care about you returning.
Yngvadottir (
talk) 21:02, 15 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Martin, I suspect that you pointed to those comments as a way of venting, which you are very much entitled to do under the circumstances. But, as ARoseWolf says, those comments aren't worth the pixels they take up. Believe me, people have said similar things about me, and worse. When I was a new editor, an established administrator said that I was a stalker and a troll. I won't link to it, not wanting to dig up old dirt, but that's true. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 21:07, 15 September 2022 (UTC)reply
A/N sometimes seems to bring out the worst in people, perhaps in their relentless effort to show that they care about the project and its principles. Ah, so its true, Trypto, you were a stalker and a troll! I'm glad you can now admit it and
we can all move on.
[63].
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:46, 15 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Oh, I can add more. I've recently been declared a vandal and harasser:
[64], and I have no doubt that many would consider me to be an asshole. And, of course, I smell bad too. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 21:52, 15 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, indeed! (Now that's the Martin we all know and love!) Just remember about AN: big pixels, little dick. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 22:09, 15 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Tryptofish, Stalker? I have perfectly nice trees outside my house you are free to take up residence in if you ever get the urge. Bring a coat. Troll? Depends on the color hair, I like rainbows. Do you dance? Glitter? Vandal? Well, we all know that's true. I think I read it on the internet somewhere. Harasser? Yes. please! Asshole? Meh, I swear I only called you that as a term of endearment. I won't comment on the smell. --
ARoseWolf 13:01, 16 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Ah yes,
quite famous, I think: "...leading people through
the "Zone", an area in which the normal laws of physics do not apply and remnants of
seemingly extraterrestrial activity lie undisturbed among its ruins. The Zone contains a place called
the "Room", said to grant the wishes of anyone who steps inside. The area containing the Zone is shrouded in secrecy, sealed off by
the government and surrounded by ominous hazards."Martinevans123 (
talk) 17:03, 16 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Oh, that reminds me. I'm an ominous hazard too. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 19:21, 16 September 2022 (UTC)reply
I'll seventh that, good luck on OnlyFans!
InedibleHulk (
talk) 07:00, 14 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Do you think the above article should be renamed Douglas Gretzler and Willie Steelman? The two operated as a duo, and neither is more culpable than the other.
Kieronoldham (
talk) 22:49, 20 August 2022 (UTC)reply
(
talk page watcher) Kieronoldham, under the terms of his block, Martin cannot really answer that question, except as it might apply to CCI. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 19:05, 21 August 2022 (UTC)reply
I didn't know that,
Tryptofish. Hopefully he'll be back on here soon.--
Kieronoldham (
talk) 02:59, 22 August 2022 (UTC)reply
Fwiw, I don't think anything prohibits him from answering that kind of question.
Ovinus (
talk) 04:01, 22 August 2022 (UTC)reply
Ovinus, I think I know what I'm talking about. Being blocked from mainspace also means not making edits by proxy there. For just answering a question, that's on the borderline, but I don't want Martin to accidentally get into trouble, especially since there are people watching who will be looking for an excuse to pile on. I've seen editors who answer questions like that get their talk page access revoked. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 21:53, 22 August 2022 (UTC)reply
I agree with Tryp here. It would be best if Martin did not answer questions outside of those related to the CCI as it might be seen as editing by proxy. I certainly don't blame @Kieronoldham for asking the question and would encourage them to seek community guidance from the
Teahouse or using the article talk page. --
ARoseWolf 16:14, 23 August 2022 (UTC)reply
I see, I didn't know that's how it worked. Thanks y'all.
Ovinus (
talk) 19:37, 23 August 2022 (UTC)reply
And once again, no worries. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 21:04, 23 August 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you so much
Ovinus for all your hard work in the CCI. With regard to
"I Am" on Sanity Stomp, there seems to be some confusion on the attribution of the lyric, with two different discogs pages providing different answers. Not the best source anyway, I guess. The original poem was by
John Clare?
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:17, 24 August 2022 (UTC)reply
Hi Kieron.
That's a very interesting article and a very gruesome story. Thanks very much for asking for my opinion on that; I've emailed you my view, but I haven't yet really looked at all the sources and what views they express. I'd certainly agree with
ARoseWolf that the best place to ask first is at the article Talk page.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:09, 24 August 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you! Would you know what the music for Her Majesty's funeral would be? - The rehearsal went well, and the concert will be next month, with a small group of players, winds, brass piano. We 'do' strings in the Lacrimosa, humming. - The rose pic was taken on 11 Sep 2021, and this year was full of music that day,
Tag des offenen Denkmals, not only singing in church and rehearsals for the Requiem, but two concerts at special places
pictured, one a synagogue (pictured on its wall). Today three DYK: a piece we'll perform on Sunday, a violinist we heard in June playing the Berg Concerto, and a Youth Orchestra shaped by a conductor who recently died. Almost too much of a good thing. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 14:30, 14 September 2022 (UTC)reply
James O'Donnell (organist) - for a sad reason, I'd like to improve that article, help wanted. How do we know that he composed the psalm setting (vs. conducted)? (It's on YT, but that's not a source). What else to mention? Sources please. I need a break. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 11:16, 15 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Well, personally, I only know it was his arrangement, because
Petroc gave the credit during his commentary of the laying in state
here (at approx 1:06:40) "inspired by the
Orthodox Kontakion for the dead."
Martinevans123 (
talk) 20:26, 15 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you, that's interesting. I never quoted from radio, though. In this case, I found a source saying it's his work. No idea though if written for the occasion or earlier. Nevermind,
Template:Did you know nominations/James O'Donnell (organist). - If you want me to archive some of this talk I could do it. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 22:10, 15 September 2022 (UTC)reply
BBC player works only in the UK. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 22:13, 15 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you! - the latest pics show clouds, much awaited! --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 17:21, 17 September 2022 (UTC)reply
I added one with strange light. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 22:08, 17 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Today, we sang old music for two choirs at church,
pictured, scroll to the image of the organ of the month of the Diocese of Limburg (my perspective), and if you have time, watch the video about it --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 19:16, 18 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks, Gerda. I must admit that "
Spannungen" does sound, to my uncouth British ear, a bit like some kind of niche car servicing product. Ich entschuldige mich.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:13, 28 September 2022 (UTC)reply
the first meaning is voltages or tensions, of the power station they play in, but then of course more meanings, such as you want a crime story to be "spannend" - last images for September, -
music to explore, a Ukrainian baritone first, and the new Casals Forum for chamber music is just wonderful. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 15:09, 30 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Apparently I made a copyvio edit at that artcile at 23:11 on 11 October 2021? Does anyone now know that that was? I'm less concerned about that edit, whatever it was, being reverted, at 02:40 on 29 July 2022, than about the 263 intermediate edits, by many other editors, that got taken down in the subsequent rev-del process. I guess they are all also now forever lost from the record. Was the copyvio so serious that it justified such action? I realise I run the risk of having my talk page access removed for questioning the process. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:49, 5 September 2022 (UTC)reply
I think it's a perfectly reasonable question, and directly related to the CCI. I'm no expert on rev-del, but my understanding is that edits by others, that did not directly modify whatever the copyvio was, remain on the page and are not deleted. What gets deleted is the original copyvio and edits that subsequently modified it without actually removing it. Each edit made by each contributor is now admin-only for viewing, but the record is still preserved. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 21:36, 5 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks for clarifying, that's a relief. I can't actually remember what I added on 11 October last year. Ideally it would be beneficial to see what I added, what the source material was and a demonstration how that could have been reworded to avoid the copyvio. But I don't suppose that's possible, as nothing can be hidden at Wikipedia (... except that material which an admin decides should be hidden?) I appreciate the efforts of editors at the CCI who have rewritten material.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 07:22, 6 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Firstly, I don't think I'm the right person to do this as I probably have a conflict of interest (if nothing else, my talk page is feeling pretty dull at the moment without the spice of Martin's japes and tomfoolery.
However, I notice that on ANI, a thread I started about Doug Coldwell's copyvio concerns (which have been extensively reported) in pretty much an identical manner to Martin (no, this wasn't
disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate a point, if it was, nobody would have supported it). If the community can't see a consensus to block Doug over copyvios (which are being reported even today), then logically there must be some way of finding a consensus not to leave Martin blocked, right?
@
Ritchie333 I'm not sure that's a great comparison case, since Martinevans123 had been previously warned and blocked over copyright issues; Doug Coldwell hadn't, aside from the CCI opened on his old edits. Part of the opposition was based on a "this is moving too fast" feeling; another part was that the topic ban from DYK/GAN was enough for now. If an unblock is desired, something along the lines of that- a restriction of some sort or a partial block- would probably go over better. (not that I'm particularly opposed to an unblock or anything, just trying to be realistic)
Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 15:34, 14 September 2022 (UTC)reply
It looks to me like Martin does sincerely want to get back to being active. But I think that the rest of us need to be patient, and let him go at it at his own pace. It's really up to him how to frame a request (and by policy, no one else can do it for him). It comes down in large part to making a satisfactory case that he has been trying to help with the CCI, that he understands the problem, and that he is committed to fixing it and not doing it again. I don't think an "otherstuff" argument will work. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 19:56, 14 September 2022 (UTC)reply
As previously agreed, I am quite happy to wait for the completion of the CCI. The air of desperate panic that accompanied it's opening now seems to have somewhat dissipated, to say the least. That's not say there aren't still many more edit rocks waiting to be turned over, to reveal true copyvio horrors lurking beneath. I wish I could remember which they were. Alas, I'm still not sure how I can help. I guess I could trawl through all the remaining CCI pages and try to bring to editor's attention here those which might warrant more urgent attention. But some may say that's just a waste of time. Or that I'm not permitted to help, of course. I'm not even allowed to archive (what used to be) my Talk page at the moment (although it's not entirely clear to me what the risk to the project is with that).
Martinevans123 (
talk) 20:40, 15 September 2022 (UTC)reply
This one came across my watchlist changes today.
Dianaa removed as copyvio (from
this website) what was largely added by this user
here in 2010. It's not for me to say how many other such edits have been made, but it is being brought to light by others.
Seasider53 (
talk) 00:41, 20 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Hello Seasider53. This user respectfully asks if you can suggest a re-write that avoids any copyvio. Many thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 08:19, 20 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Try using alternative words for starters, then reorganise a sentence structure. You know, things we learned at school.
Seasider53 (
talk) 09:47, 21 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks for the clear example. Maybe you want to improve the article? I’m blocked. Maybe I need to ask a grown up.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 14:38, 21 September 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm 66, and have been told that I'm a grown-up, and I think that Seasider53's advice is sound. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 17:40, 21 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes
Seasider53, Diannaa removed that material, although she did not rev-del it. No-one has edited there since 19 September. The
source still works, so you might like to provide an example of how some or all of it might be re-written. Or perhaps you'd like me to have another go? I suspect that there might be better, more authoritative, sources available; if you have any suggestions, that would be very helpful.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 16:20, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Interesting how the alternative to not plagiarising is just asking others to write stuff instead.
Seasider53 (
talk) 16:30, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I've asked if you'd like me to have another go at re-writing and if you had any better sources. So there's not just one alternative, is there? I was also assuming that you're much better than me at avoiding copyright infringement and that you might welcome the opportunity to demonstrate how it's done. I think "plagiarising" is where you don't actually attribute any sources at all? As
Inglewhite is also on your watchlist, I had thought we might have a shared interest in improving it.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 17:16, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The way that I think of the meaning of "plagiarism" is that it is presenting content as though it were one's own original work, when it is actually someone else's. Superficially, that sounds the same as not attributing to any sources at all, but there's a distinction that I think is useful to understand. It's still plagiarism if it seems to a reasonable reader that it is one's own original wording, regardless of whether there is a source cited. For example, in a properly written WP article, there might be an inline citation at the end of a particular sentence. A reasonable reader would assume that the information in that sentence was found in the cited source, but that the way that the sentence was written was in the WP editor's own original choice of wording – not that it was copied by the editor verbatim from the source. So citing a source isn't enough, by itself, even though it's a necessary first step. Another thing worth knowing is that it is still plagiarism if it is copied from a public domain source, even if it doesn't violate a copyright, if the fact of the copying is not explicitly clear to a reasonable reader. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 19:41, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Oh, I see. So you are essentially agreeing with Seasider53? I had realised that "citing a source isn't enough". Does Wikipedia policy make any distinction between plagiarism and copyright violation? Perhaps it's academic.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:53, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes,
Wikipedia:Plagiarism says: "These policies mean that Wikipedians are highly vulnerable to accusations of plagiarism because we must stick closely to sources, but not too closely. Because plagiarism can occur without an intention to deceive, concerns should focus on educating the editor and cleaning up the article..
Martinevans123 (
talk) 20:07, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm not sure it's entirely fair to state that my "alternative to not plagiarising is just asking others to write stuff instead." Other editors are under no obligation to re-write anything. The easiest way to "clean up the article" is just to remove the material, with a rev-del if necessary. But policy there actually places "educating the editor" first? However, the question mark over that source seems quite pertinent. If it's not even an adequate source, there seems little point in me, or anyone else, trying to re-write it. I might benefit from the practice, or from seeing the good example, but it might still not be worth keeping in the article.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:08, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Personally, I prefer educating over scolding, but that's just me. I think that there's a takeaway from the "just asking others" comment, however. There can be a perception that you need to demonstrate that you don't need to depend on others getting it right, and that perception is likely to be held against you. That's what I was trying to get at in my comment in the section below, where I talked about CCI editors liking your suggested revisions. I wasn't trying to imply that you need to get it perfect, of course. I just meant that I think editors are looking for you to show significant progress in learning how to write text that is non-copyvio, non-plagiarized, on your own. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 21:51, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Hmmm. How would you suggest I alter my approach with re-writes here? I was assuming it was just common courtesy to ask the removing editor for their views on my proposal. You'd prefer me to just say: "here's my best shot: take it or leave it"?
Martinevans123 (
talk) 22:00, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
No, not at all. You should continue to do it as you have been doing. What I'm saying is that you should try – hard – to make your rewrites as good as possible before you post them, and work towards making them better and better (with respect to copyvio compliance) over time. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 22:14, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Then I have no problem with that. I agree wholeheartedly. What I have a problem with is being told that I don't really care about my copyvios and that other editors just have to re-write them all for my benefit.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 22:31, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Well-said. WP can certainly be an unpleasant place. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 22:58, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
So I've now read through those policies, essays and guidelines again, and added them at the top of the page for reference.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:13, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you
Vami IV for taking the trouble to check through some of the CCI diffs and for your recent edit
here, removing something I added over 7 years ago. I must admit that I still tend to view those as basic, essential facts about Jones and I would very much appreciate any advice you could give as to how they could be included in the article without a breach of copyright. Many thanks for your help. Regards.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 20:29, 17 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Done.
KJP1 (
talk) 21:08, 17 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you very much, KJP1. And for the other swift improvements there.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:37, 17 September 2022 (UTC)reply
@
KJP1: I can tell you copied from that source because of the curly quote in Jones'. You have re-added a
close paraphrase; a copyright violation. –
♠Vamí_IV†♠ 21:40, 17 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes; I have now done this. I disagree, however, about the merits of including his grandfather's divinations. As far as I know, Jones is not notable for esoteric subjects. –
♠Vamí_IV†♠ 21:44, 17 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Vami_IV - The curly quote comes from editing on my iPad. You could try AGF. Whether you like it or not, it is what the source says. If you think it’s a CV, go ahead and report it.
KJP1 (
talk) 21:48, 17 September 2022 (UTC)reply
I apologize for the misconception, then; understand: I have usually only ever see curly quotes/apostrophes in text has been copied from another website and pasted into Wikipedia. As for what the source says, the source may say whatever it may say. It should summarized, not reproduced. –
♠Vamí_IV†♠ 21:53, 17 September 2022 (UTC)reply
That is what I have done. And apology accepted.
KJP1 (
talk) 21:56, 17 September 2022 (UTC)reply
There seems to be a difference of opinion here. If only we had objective rules for copyvio? I don't see why "his grandfather's divinations" necessarily need to be dismissed, if (once) recorded by literaturewales.org. But that's just my opinion.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:58, 17 September 2022 (UTC)reply
With regards to differences of opinion, there's a line quoted in a Tom Scott YouTube video that I find inspiring, and at least somewhat relevant: "We should not adopt a bright-line standard unless we have a good one—and we do not have a good one" (Pierre N. Leval, "Toward a Fair Use Standard", Harvard Law Review, 1990). Humans are complex and so is their writing; people will disagree in good faith over what is "fair use" and what is not. The only "objective rule" is a court opinion.
Now, if someone got sued for that chunk of text, they'd probably win. It is minor. But we err on the side of caution here—our non-free content guidelines are stricter than what US law requires (not sure about UK
fair dealing, but whatever)—not only to prevent lawsuits, but also to maintain quality and integrity. Problems with close paraphrasing, removed under copyright policy, are usually indicative of a content or writing problem, namely that the article or section in question is too reliant on the thoughts and details of one source. As creators of an encyclopedia our goal is to summarize sources, not to reprint often-inappropriate detail. And I would say that the "grandfather" detail is unencyclopedic, unless multiple sources repeat the claim.
TL;DR: Copyright violation or not, as writers we should not regurgitate anything but the simplest of facts. I mean simplest. "John Smith was born in 1986 to a Hungarian mother and father, who was a painter"? Don't paste, rearrange that to put the birth date elsewhere, and say "John Smith's parents are/were Hungarian." Omit the painter detail. There's much benefit to err on the side of caution, especially when learning how to write without copyright issues. That's just my opinion, and I'm not even that good of an article writer, but hopefully it gives you some perspective.
Ovinus (
talk) 22:24, 17 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Martin - Truly sorry. I’d not intended that this become a drawn-out, painful debate.
KJP1 (
talk) 22:34, 17 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Just to be clear, I'm not trying to debate, I'd just love to see Martin unblocked soon and contributing. If there's any hint of harshness or condescension in there I apologize.
Ovinus (
talk) 22:38, 17 September 2022 (UTC)reply
I appreciate your good faith comments here, Ovinus. I wonder how may dealings literaturewales.org have had with Harvard Law Review. In fact, I'd like to know how many successful copyright lawsuits have been won against Wikipedia since it started and in which jurisdictions these have happened. But perhaps this information is secret? It certainly doesn't seem to have been widely publicised.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 06:43, 18 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Sued? Not many, and all the ones I know about have concerned Commons. Formal copyright takedown requests, still not that many, because Wikipedia has such severe copyright policies. Dubiously extrapolating from
the 2014 report you'd expect 200 DMCA takedown requests over the English Wikipedia's life time. Informal requests, ask VRT, I don't know. Probably a lot more. Yes, Wikipedia does a lot better than Facebook,
who took down 3 million pieces of content in half a year. But those guys are paid, some of them rather well. Imagine if unpaid volunteers had to remove thousands of copyright violations, and then imagine that these violations are not in irrelevant Facebook memes—removable in a click, without protest—but rather in articles viewable by the world at large, and often metastasized into other parts of an article, or even other articles. This is the burden of CCI, and why we must take copyright so seriously.
I quoted the law article not to imply that we're in severe legal jeopardy (that's somewhat of a red herring), but because I thought it made a good philosophical point. There is no mathematical formula determining whether something is a copyright violation, and we should always aim very low. Usually our writing will improve in proportion!
Ovinus (
talk) 14:09, 18 September 2022 (UTC)reply
About copyright suits against WP/WMF, I'm sure there are some that are not public, but according to
List of Wikipedia controversies, there appear not to be very many. At
List of Wikipedia controversies#2009, there was a successful cease-and-desist letter from the London National Portrait Gallery over Commons having images that belonged to them; these were apparently removed before it escalated to a lawsuit. And at
List of Wikipedia controversies#2014, there was a failed suit against us for the ever-lovely monkey selfie. That's all I found. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 18:42, 18 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Apologies, I was imagining copyvio lawsuits over the occupations of parents and the grandfather divinations of obscure Welsh poets.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 20:25, 18 September 2022 (UTC)reply
I'll take bets that there are zero of those – so far. (Of course there can always be a first time.) --
Tryptofish (
talk) 18:13, 19 September 2022 (UTC)reply
With all due respect sir, I am sure that there have been stranger causes for litigation.
We needn't tempt fate. –
♠Vamí_IV†♠ 21:30, 18 September 2022 (UTC)reply
I take your advice about beans. But I see it as less about “fate” and more about a financial decision by a hard-nosed
copyright lawyer.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 08:25, 20 September 2022 (UTC)reply
W. H. Davies
Hi Martin! I was wondering whether you still had the book sources to
W. H. Davies so that I can check. It's quite an extensive article, with several intervening edits by others, so I really don't want to stubify it.
Ovinus (
talk) 03:37, 25 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Hi Ovinus. First of all, thank you again for all your work on the CCI entries. And second, thank you for actually asking, instead of applying the apparently popular dictum of "he's made a few copyvios so, in the absence of accessible sources, let's just assume
everying is a copyvio." Yes, I expect I have all the book sources somewhere. I'll have a look. Sorry, but at the moment I am quite busy "
in real life" (if you can still remember that... 😊) Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:20, 28 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Oh, of course—there's no rush at all. Sorry I didn't see the wikibreak template up there.
Ovinus (
talk) 18:24, 28 September 2022 (UTC)reply
p.s. I'm pretty sure
this is not a copyvio. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 20:25, 28 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Indeed! We'll see about the article as a whole. If copyright issues turn out to be too foundational, I think this might be a nice one for practicing paraphrasing and understanding copyvio (once you're feeling ready); lots of sources to draw from and summarize.
Ovinus (
talk) 20:50, 28 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, I have most of the sources. We could examine those 69 diffs one at a time. Although they start over nine years ago. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 15:46, 8 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Great, thanks. The issue right now is that the cited pages are rather wide for some citations. Maybe as a start you could email me page 156 of Time to Stand and Stare: A Life of W. H. Davies with Selected Poems? If you don't have that one, then maybe some pages selected between pages 9 and 20 of The Essential W. H. Davies.
Ovinus (
talk) 17:23, 8 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Which one would you like to address first? Or do you want to ignore the diffs and just look at the current version? Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 17:52, 8 October 2022 (UTC)reply
We can work diff by diff, or source by source. The latter makes more sense to me, but if the former would be more instructive, let me know.
Ovinus (
talk) 17:56, 8 October 2022 (UTC)reply
It would indeed by more instructive, thanks. And it might be possible to discount some very quickly, if they are simply adding sources or formatting, etc., like the first one.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:01, 8 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Alright, I will strike ones which are unproblematic.
Special:Diff/534201397 is first to consider—do you have access to Sitwell?
Ovinus (
talk) 18:07, 8 October 2022 (UTC)reply
I have sent you a test email, as I think I'll need your email address to send you any images. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:15, 8 October 2022 (UTC) p.s. yes I have Sitwell (1943)reply
Thanks for your quick reply. I have sent you an image of that page 156.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:53, 8 October 2022 (UTC)reply
That source is paraphrased fine (content is, "Davies' health continued to decline. He died in September 1940 at the age of 69. Never a churchgoer in adult life, Davies was cremated at the Bouncer's Lane Cemetery, Cheltenham, and his remains interred there"). However, the source never explicitly says Bouncer's Lane Cemetery, or that his remains were interred there—just that he was cremated in Cheltenham. Maybe that's found on page 157?
How about Sitwell?
Ovinus (
talk) 19:06, 8 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Errrm no, page 157 just gives more on "posthumous portraits", no mention of the Cemetery. So I'm not sure where that came from. So we'd need another source for that.
Bouncer's Lane was the only crematorium for Cheltenham in 1940 and I think it still is. Might be safer to take the name out, if a source can't be found.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:45, 8 October 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm guessing you'd like images of pages xxi–xxviii of Sitwell (1943).
Martinevans123 (
talk) 20:47, 8 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Ye, that would be desirable.
Ovinus (
talk) 20:50, 8 October 2022 (UTC)reply
My 1963 edition (with a Preface by Daniel George) has Sitwell's Introduction on pages xxvii-xxxiv, copies of which I have now sent. But I don't think it was revised from the 1943 edition. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:16, 8 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Appears to be paraphrased fine! The next one is quite hard because it's a whole biography, W. H. Davies – A Critical Biography. Stanford library actually has it, but I won't be able to go there any time soon. My intuition, based on the article/source size ratio, is that most of it's fine, but if you would be willing to send the page(s) corresponding to Fearing contempt from fellow tramps, he often feigned ... all of the printed sheets, I can take a look at those.
Ovinus (
talk) 22:52, 8 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks, feel free to add ticks and crosses. Yes, of course, I'll try and send you those. Just to let you know, I'm going away today, for about a week, where I'll have very limited internet access. Thank you so much again, Ovinus, for taking the time to help with this.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 08:00, 9 October 2022 (UTC) p.s. I don't think
this is copyvio...reply
Enjoy your trip!
Ovinus (
talk) 22:09, 9 October 2022 (UTC)reply
With regards to Ms. Vinus, she is well.
This paragraph is paraphrased excellently. I'm pleasantly surprised, Martin! Let's do two more, the pages corresponding to In 1907, the manuscript of The Autobiography of a Super-Tramp ... London publisher Fifield and to By this time Davies had a library of some 50 books ... without success. I'd also appreciate if you could skim through the corresponding parts (chronologically speaking) of the introduction and send me pages which contain this information (if they exist).
There is inappropriate copying from the BBC that I found.
[67] says:
The Friends of Glendower have arranged a series of lectures, exhibitions, walks and other events are being held in Nailsworth and Stroud from 13 to 26 September to mark the 70th anniversary of the poet's death.
And the article said,
In 2010, the Friends of Glendower arranged lectures, exhibitions, walks and other events in Nailsworth and Stroud on 13–26 September, to mark the 70th anniversary of the poet's death.
Note how the structure, word choice, and level of detail is very similar; only the tense is changed. You can try paraphrasing that as practice, if you like. Cheers.
Ovinus (
talk) 20:30, 14 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Many thanks. Yes, the tense had to change as it was, when I added it, the previous year (now 12 years ago). How about:
In September 2010, to commemorate the 70 years since of Davies' death, the Friends of Glendower arranged a series of events, including walks, exhibitions and lectures, in Stroud and Nailsworth.
I'll try and send the pages for those two passages.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 08:56, 15 October 2022 (UTC) p.s. I'm reluctant to add ticks and crosses here. And of course, I'm not able to do that at the CCI page. So I'd be grateful if you could.reply
Don't worry, I'll cross out everything at the CCI once we're through. It's so far going better than I anticipated. As to your paraphrase, it's a reasonable start, but it's really just switching up the order of everything. We should also consider word choice and level of detail. For example, I might have done something like: In September 2010, the 70th anniversary of Davies's death, the Friends of Glendower hosted a commemoration in Nailsworth and Stroud. In this case I omitted the "lectures, exhibitions, walks" detail, and even though "70th anniversary of Davies's death" is in the original, there's not really a great way to rephrase it. YMMV. Also, pinging
Tryptofish if they'd like to join.
Ovinus (
talk) 18:27, 16 October 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm still watching here, if there are any questions for me. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 19:36, 16 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks, Ovinus. I guess crossing out is ok. I had assumed that ticks and crosses were in some way more conclusive (although have also seen a few question marks over at CCI) and more indicative of some kind of progress. Feel free to provide Earwig scores. Yes, I also don't really see a problem with the phrase "70th anniversary of Davies's death". That looks to me like the sort of descriptive declarative clause that can't be copyrightable. I just felt compelled to try and use as few of the same words from the original sentence as possible, so that those serried ranks of
BBC lawyers weren't rushing to grab their gold-plated quill pens yet again... Your suggested re-write is very inventive. But did the Friends of Glendower actually "host" anything - I thought they had just arranged those events? So Trypto, a question for you is this: could you please re-write the original sentence for us here so that it (a) avoids any possible claim of copyright violation but also (b) has the same meaning? Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 07:45, 17 October 2022 (UTC)reply
OK, here is a possible rewrite, which I'm basing only on what I see here in this discussion, without looking at the page or the source:
In September 2010, the Friends of Glendower celebrated the 70th anniversary of Davies' death. They held a variety of events, including lectures, in Nailsworth and Stroud.
I'd probably have no qualms about adding that. But you'd need to look at the source, to know you were not violating copyright. Let's see what Ovinus thinks. Perhaps someone cab do a Earwig on it.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 20:22, 17 October 2022 (UTC)reply
It's true that I didn't look at the source, but I went by what Ovinus quoted from the source. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 20:25, 17 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Well, that's also very inventive. Perhaps now you can peek at the actual source and see how well or badly you did?
Martinevans123 (
talk) 20:32, 17 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Unless Ovinus misquoted it, I don't understand why you would want me to do that? --
Tryptofish (
talk) 20:34, 17 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Oh, I see. His quote is 100% accurate. So, you're right, you don't need to. I was trying to be too true to real life. If we asked a series of 10 random editors if your version avoided copyright, we might get a range of opinions. Unlike my original, of course, which would no doubt get 10 thumbs down. Would we ever get a definitive answer? Not sure.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 20:40, 17 October 2022 (UTC)reply
The way I see it, there can always be a gray area in which editors would truly disagree over whether material has or has not been changed enough to avoid a copyright infringement. But the goal when editing is to always go beyond that gray area, to the point where most reasonable editors would agree that there is no problem. That's what I sought to do. As you can see, I split it up into two sentences, and I intentionally left some information out when I wrote "a variety of events, including lectures". Thus, I omitted the information that there were also exhibitions and walks, and I decided that omitting that would not matter. I recommend getting into the mindset that a sufficient rewrite will remove the risk of a copyright problem, even if it results in not quite capturing every last detail of the source. Once you get to where you can comfortably feel like there is a big enough difference between the source and the rewrite, then you can get comfortable with not worrying that random editors will act unpredictably. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 21:01, 17 October 2022 (UTC)reply
That seems perfectly reasonable, although I don't quite know how one is to judge the relative merits of lectures, exhibitions and walks. I suppose the fewer facts there are, the less there is to disagree over. Let's see what Ovinus thinks. Perhaps one of you will feel comfortable enough to restore someone's version, or even a further hybrid, to the article.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:19, 17 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Tryptofish hits the nail on the head as usual. There is a gray area (a fairly large one at that), but we should always strive to go beyond that area. If that means omitting some detail, so be it. With regards to Earwig: The tool is only a heuristic. A negative finding on Earwig does not preclude a copyright issue, nor does a positive finding imply an issue. (I've been thinking about more robust ways to detect close paraphrasing, particularly those instances obfuscated by word substitution, but
natural language processing is not my area of expertise.)
Anyway, I'll check the pages you emailed me in the next couple of days. Also, if you're interested, and able to explain your understanding of copyright satisfactorily, I would advocate for a partial unblock. If you'd be interested, probably try to explain it to me and Trypto first. Both understanding and wording are key; for better or worse, the community isn't likely to take kindly to an explanation that isn't dead serious.
Ovinus (
talk) 18:21, 23 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Many thanks Ovinus. By all means re-add what you consider the best version at
W. H. Davies. As I said previously, I was hoping to get an opportunity to demonstrate an understanding of copyright by re-writing material that was unsatisfactory. But in most cases this is not possible as it gets rev-del'ed. I'm also unsure what a partial unblock might entail. I assume that would need to be agreed that with the blocking admin, Diannaa. As regards Earwig, I'm well aware of its limitations, but I had always assumed it was a way of moving beyond only subjective opinion. I only discovered it long after making many of the problematic CCI edits. Regards.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:44, 23 October 2022 (UTC)reply
With regards to pasting copyrighted content: there are options. One is to keep the quotes short; a paragraph of quoted content on talk pages, under discussion, is common practice (and for avoidance of all doubt, I can add the material and take the blame if someone calls foul). Another is to practise with public domain or freely licensed content, in which case there is no limit to our quoting. Another is to work through email, as we have been. Finally, we can work with sources that are freely available online, and refer to them as necessary.
Ovinus (
talk) 02:25, 28 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, thanks. That all sounds perfectly practical.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 14:43, 28 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Today is Erntedank in Germany, thanksgiving, and we celebrated our village's 650th anniversary, and had the dress rehearsal for Verdi's Requiem with an interesting band of marimba, piano, horn, bass, timpani and drum, - concert tomorrow, our national holiday. Seeing a pic I took on the Main page was also a nice harvest. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 21:21, 2 October 2022 (UTC)reply
DYK means that you take a pic on 7 July, and nominate it, and it's not taken, and you try again, and by some miracle it gets to the Main page in October. Our marimba player handled the big drum which was quite close to my position, each hit a physical sensation. Amazing that Verdi invented the music for Dies irae already as part of his first approach, Libera me, which now comes last. - Did you see
our soprano? Mezzo to follow tomorrow. When they sang about Michael the lightbearer I remembered you wishing me Michaelmas. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 20:40, 5 October 2022 (UTC)reply
I saw that, and there's also Rejoice! from Messiah, same setting with piano, - it says 11 years ago, done by her then agency. I found nothing recent. The way she lets these high Bs float softly is just amazing. The highlight of the concert (for me, and actually even better in the dress rehearsal) was she and the mezzo singing Agnus Dei, an octave apart and nothing else. What would you suggest for a DYK? --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 21:04, 5 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Came just to mention (late, sorry) that
another church with your name was on the Main page, pictured. - Sure there will be something about the soprano, just what, that is the question. Look at
Markus Becker (pianist), and you'll understand why I ask. (The noms are on the talk.) --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 09:26, 8 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Not sure what stands out. ... she recorded a setting of Lermontov's "
Three Palms" for soprano and
string quartet with "heartfelt passion"??
Martinevans123 (
talk) 15:41, 8 October 2022 (UTC)reply
They will tell me that the poem is not known by the general reader. The Verdi Requiem is, but the one and only review dealt with politics for most of the time, and gave her and the mezzo together two lines (the first actually about all four soloists), of positive but rather plain description. Frau Fluth perhaps. Verdi's Libera me is quite a scene. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 15:44, 8 October 2022 (UTC)reply
new day, another pictured DYK (but not pictured by me this time):
look at power work tensions (if you translate) --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 11:46, 13 October 2022 (UTC)reply
today's DYK: two facts from the two concert of this years Rheingau Musik Festival I liked best, both a cappella singing, and you helped with one, remember? If you follow the songs, you see a circus, where I performed singing, and in the end the whole tent joined for
Dona nobis pacem. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 20:28, 19 October 2022 (UTC)reply
We talked about you and yt on
GRuban's page (under the tree, or look for "courage"). I forgot when you had trouble for hosting videos not licensed enough, - do you remember, or should we better forget? You will enjoy Pisarenko's licensed or not. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 22:11, 26 October 2022 (UTC)reply
That's a very interesting discussion. The advice at Commons seems very clear. My recollection is that the Admin concerned was very angry and annoyed (or it may have been annoyed and angry, I'm not sure) with me for pasting links to YouTube videos, that might not have have been properly licenced by the originator, at my Talk page, when most other Admins did not seem to be very bothered at all. I moderated the visibility of the links by hiding them in a hatted box. I eventually relented by removing all those I considered doubtful. I think I was blocked by that Admin for a wholly separate supposed copyright infringement, which included translated material, and which had originally been created by another blocked editor. A least I'm now much more careful about the YT links that I add to article mainspace. But the whole episode was quite a waste of time and better off forgotten. Thanks for reminding me.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 12:15, 27 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Would anyone kindly revert
this edit? And possibly add a note to that editor's Talk page? Many thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 11:08, 15 October 2022 (UTC)reply
I see that an IP editor has removed the video clip for "Frog and Peach"
here, with the summary "This video isn't available any more". While it's true that the original video has gone, there is a possible replacement
here from the Secret Policeman channel. I believe this is not in breach of copyright, so somebody might like to add it. There's also a book source
here. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 17:26, 21 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Martin, you probably shouldn't be using your talk page to ask other editors to make mainspace edits that are unrelated to the CCI. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 19:34, 21 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Would you like me to strike out this suggestion or just delete it wholesale?
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:00, 21 October 2022 (UTC)reply
I guess you could strike it, but that's not a big deal. Mostly, just don't continue to do it, because it's technically not supposed to be done. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 21:09, 21 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks for doing that. I really hate sounding like a pest. Preventing the risk of TPA loss is what I was trying to do. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 21:25, 21 October 2022 (UTC)reply
You poor thing. Ever the
optimist. What a truly
grim place this is.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:43, 21 October 2022 (UTC) a shame that Grammy winner
Oskar Franzén, who is the real star that video, hardly gets a mention. (guitar – Martin Renck; keyboards – Mats Karlsson; percussion – Oskar Franzén; programming – Jonas von der Burg; flute – David Wilczewski)reply
We have an opening at the top
We thought your résumé looked promising. Please schedule an interview at your earliest convenience at
No 10. Signed,
Charles Rex.
Softlavender (
talk) 05:20, 22 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Re:
this addition (which has remained unchallenged and unchanged for nearly 14 years), the source text (Hando (1958) p.119) is this:
The chancel of Cwmyoy church is a remarkable example of a "weeping chancel". In many of our churches the axis of the chancel is out of line with the axis of the nave, for the nave represents our Lord's body and the deflected chancel His head fallen sideways in death.
At Cwmyoy not only the axis but the whole chancel slews sideways and it it seems that the builders planned it thus, for if the slant had been due to the landside it should have followed the slant of the tower.
The Monmouthshire writer and artist
Fred Hando calls it "the Church below the Landslide" and describes the church chancel as an example of a "weeping chancel", where the non-alignment of the nave and chancel axes was deliberate and was intended to represent the body of
Christ in death, the nave standing for the body and the chancel standing for the head, fallen to the right.
Any comments or further suggestions? Many thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 11:51, 22 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Oh, this is an interesting one. Never heard of it before. Must go and have a look some time.
Deb (
talk) 13:14, 22 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, it is. Not only does
KJP1 write wonderful original prose, but he also takes great photos, like
this one.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 13:39, 22 October 2022 (UTC) I'm not sure if the estate of the late Fred Hando, and/or R. H. Johns Ltd., Stationers, Printers & Account Book Manufacturers of Newport, are in any position to mount a legal battle, to recover damages from WMF for violation of copyright, but it's your duty to protect Wikipedia by adjusting those three sentences, if you can! Thanks. reply
You’re too kind. The church rarely looked more crooked!
KJP1 (
talk) 15:33, 22 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Hello
Cameron Dewe, I saw your ping at the Talk page. Sorry I am unable to post at that page at present. Yes, some road traffic deaths may be considered by society as
accidental deaths, rather than being due to negligence or recklessness. But is this case Sacoolas has admitted she was
criminally negligent. You claim that "The charge that Mrs Sacoolas plead guilty to was Dangerous driving causing Death." But that is not the case. The article clearly says:
"On the 20 October 2022 the Old Bailey heard and accepted Sacoolas plea of guilty (via video link) to the charge of causing the death of Harry Dunn by careless driving. (She had pleaded not guilty to the more serious offence of
causing death by dangerous driving."
I believe the lesser charge of causing death by careless driving should be pipe-linked to
Road Safety Act 2006. I would also suggest that the lead section should make it clear that Sacoolas' guilty plea was made (via video link) at
Old Bailey (but I have already been reprimanded for making requests unrelated to my current CCI, so please just take these as observations). Dunn's mother, Charlotte Charles, spoke on Woman's Hour yesterday and is due to be on Broadcasting House, with Paddy O'Connell, tomorrow morning. Many thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 22:06, 22 October 2022 (UTC)reply
My argument is that society considers deaths resulting from driving offences to be "accidental". Even though there might be a degree of negligence involved in the driving, Police did not lay charges of murder or manslaughter, only that of "causing death". How Wikipedia names an article seems to turn on the meaning of the word "Homicide", which is open to interpretation in law. English traffic law uses the term "causing death", suggesting that the law considers any road traffic death was more probably accidental than due the criminal recklessness or negligence of the driver. Although Sacoolas has plead guilty to causing Dunn's death, the wording of the law, and any charges, precludes saying she "killed" him. -
Cameron Dewe (
talk) 22:31, 22 October 2022 (UTC)reply
I'd suggest that term "Homicide" is used differently on each of the Atlantic. But your argument seems perfectly fair: Sacoolas did not mean to kill Dunn, but she was the agent that brought about his death. Accidents generally have multiple contributory causes, not just a singe cause, and the term "killing" suggests an intentional purpose that does not usually apply in accidental deaths. Dunn's parents have issued a statement to say they are travelling to the US today to thank the American people and media personally. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 07:58, 23 October 2022 (UTC)reply
p.s. I notice that you have now added at the Talk page "Police still had the option of laying murder or manslaughter charges, which they didn't do." While theoretically that might have been possible, it's quite rare to bring those charges under the
law of England and Wales. The
CPS would almost certainly have advised against either of those in this case. There's a guide
here. Regards.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 10:22, 23 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Hello
Diannaa. Thank you for your continued work at the CCI. I noticed that you removed the piped link to
Smith of Derbyhere with the edit summary "remove copyright content copied from
https://southwellchurches.nottingham.ac.uk/newark-st-mary/hclock.php". As can be seen at the Smith article, the name Smith of Derby Group was adopted only in 1985, whereas the work at St Mary's was completed in 1971. So I had assumed the piped link was more accurate. What do you think? Many thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:03, 23 October 2022 (UTC)reply
That sounds like a good edit. I will change it back. Thanks for the suggestion. —
Diannaa (
talk) 19:11, 23 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Many thanks, Diannaa. As for the rest of that edit, yes I pretty much copied it, as I could not see any way of re-phrasing those technicalities. Perhaps you have some suggestions? I realise you are under no obligation to do so. But I'd really appreciate your ideas on that sentence. Thank you.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:53, 23 October 2022 (UTC)reply
How would you describe the sequence of events to a friend, if you were telling the story in person? You would be unlikely to speak in the stilted manner of the prose that was copied. I suggest that you read the source, and then put the content into your own words in plain direct English (without looking at the source documents). It helps to have multiple sources on which to draw. I see
here that the Saxon bldg of Leofric's time was the first on the site, and the second was built after the Norman invasion. The crypt and four piers are all that remain of the Norman bldg. Much of what is still present on the site dates from 1220 and later. —
Diannaa (
talk) 22:55, 23 October 2022 (UTC)reply
"It has three 7-foot (2.1 m) diameter and one 9-foot (2.7 m) diameter roman gilded skeleton dials and a mechanism by
Joyce of Whitchurch, dated 1898. It sounds
Westminster Quarters. It was converted to electrical power, in 1971, by
Smith of Derby, with direct drive on chime and strike and autowind on the going train." I didn't see much a story there, sorry.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 07:37, 24 October 2022 (UTC)reply
It appears we are talking about two different edits. I was talking about this edit. For the edit about the clock, I would simply omit the less important details, like I did here. —
Diannaa (
talk) 11:38, 24 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, it does. I provided the link in the opening paragraph above? I'd be happy to leave out "less important details". But with the words included, is that copyvio? I can't see any way of re-wording those details about the clock. It seems you can't either. Perhaps we could also discuss your second edit, with the summary "remove some presumptively; see Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/20220720"? I'd be happy to copy here the original text from the source (Pask, 1995). Many thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 12:18, 24 October 2022 (UTC)reply
With the words included, it's copyvio in my opinion. That's why I took it out! You've been telling me for 7 years that if you can't figure out a way to re-word something that means it's okay for you to copypaste it in. That is incorrect. Trivial detail about the type of gilding on the arms of the clock is not important information to include. Technical specifications about the conversion to electric power are not important to include either. Leave it out.Regarding the content I removed presumptively, I've already given my thoughts about how to re-word it in my previous post. The Saxon bldg of Leofric's time was the first on the site, and the second was built after the Norman invasion. The crypt and four piers are all that remain of the Norman bldg. Much of what is still present on the site dates from 1220 and later. —
Diannaa (
talk) 12:38, 24 October 2022 (UTC)reply
I may have made that suggestion before, but I don't think I've been "telling you for 7 years." Those details might not be trivial to many readers. Still, I'm perfectly happy to leave out such technicalities. Thank you for the very clear advice. With regard to your presumptive copyvio removal, I'm surprised you don't want to see the original source text. Regards.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 12:50, 24 October 2022 (UTC)reply
I haven't counted years, but I'm pretty sure Diannaa meant for a long time prior to the most recent CCI. I agree entirely with her advice, and I'd like to point to what we recently discussed about
#W. H. Davies for how I approached leaving out trivial details and avoiding copyvio. If you frequently find that details that seem to you to be important to readers are putting you at odds with copyvio expectations, then I would suggest that you just adjust your perceptions of what is indispensable to include. (After all, other editors have been leaving such things out, and the wiki-sky hasn't fallen.) It also has a good example of where Ovinus posted a brief quote from the source material in a permissible way for our purposes here, and that would be a good thing for you to do preemptively when you want other editors to see the original source text, although doing that by email would of course be preferable. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 18:54, 24 October 2022 (UTC)reply
I was agreeing with Diannaa? I had thought looking at an actual example, before any text had been rev-del'ed, might have been instructive. For me at least. Perhaps you think the risk to the project is too great to reproduce here one paragraph (44 words) from Brenda Pask's leaflet. I'm not sure how a brief quote would establish if a presumptive removal was justified. But editors with indefinite blocks don't get to call the shots, do they.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:05, 24 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Unfortunately, IAR doesn't apply with regards to copyvio. As copyright is forbidden by real laws rather than some policy, Wikipedia cannot have any copyright-infringing clauses in its pages, lest Wikipedia's very existence becomes illegal. Wikipedia thus takes a nigh-zero tolerance policy regarding copyvios (
and why this happened). As such, while it is exceedingly unlikely that Wikipedia gets taken to court for "one paragraph from Brenda Pask's leaflet", it would still be better to omit the copyvio section entirely rather than bettering the article or benefitting the reader with the info from the source.
If ever you are in doubt about whether something is a copyvio or not, it's generally always better to err on the side of caution and exclude the infringing clauses. There are guides and examples on and off Wikipedia that can help you with paraphrasing and synthesizing. And if paraphrasing seems too difficult for some sources, one might use quotations marks, add an external link, or ask for help via the Teahouse it's not just for newbies like me; they're pretty good at helping experienced editors too or by pinging Tryptofish (I think he offered to mentor you? May be misremembering).
24.207.44.76 (
talk) 22:02, 25 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks
Delta IP24 for your helpful advice. You seem remarkably well informed for "a newbie". Your advice is very similar to that already kindly offered by Trytpofish, valereee, Levivich, Girth Summit, Moneytrees, Boing! said Zebedee, Ovinus, Yngvadottir, KJP1 and Diannaa (and any others I have missed here). I have agreed with them all, so I agree with you. "Unfortunately"?? Yes, I am well aware that copyright is forbidden by real laws, thanks, and I'd never advocate
IAR with regard to copyright. Here are the 44 words that comprise Pask's second paragraph, on page 2 of her booklet (photographic copies available on request):
"The present church is actually the third on this site. Of the Saxon church which stood in the manor of the Earl of Mercia and his wife, Lady Godiva, nothing remains. They had given Newark as endowment to the monks of Stow (by Lincoln)".[1]
References
^Pask, B. M. (1995), The Parish Church of St, Mary Magdalene, The District Church Council of The Parish Church of St, Mary Magdalene, Newark,
ISBN0-9516888-8-X
I'm not sure I would want to just add quotation marks to that passage. Perhaps as Dianna has presumed, it is prose with a "stilted manner", which I have copied. If you compare it with my version, you can seen how poor a job I did of rewriting it. But I am left wondering how I would "describe the sequence of events to a friend, if I were telling the story in person?" Not much of a story, is it. These words still seem to me to be describing basic historical facts, in a chronological sequence. Who owns these facts? These facts can only be written in a finite number of different ways in English. Once all these ways have been used up, in copyrighted published works, only those authors or publishers own can own them? Can Wikipedia be sued only by the author I have attributed? Apologies for all this meandering about
semiotics and
meaning; it won't help my cause, of course. But I still ponder, I'm afraid. I'd be very happy indeed if you could suggest a way of rewriting those 44 words, into a version free of copyright concerns. I'd see it as "mentoring". Or maybe I have to get someone to ask for me at
the Teahouse? Thank you.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 22:04, 26 October 2022 (UTC)reply
My suggested version would be something like:
Two churches had been built previously at the same location. One was built by the Earl of Mercia and his wife, Lady Godiva, in the Saxon style.
I wrote that while being sufficiently confused by the stilted writing that I'm not sure I got it factually correct. I didn't particularly try to tell it like a story to a friend. I've omitted blue-linking. I'm taking the position that "the Earl of Mercia and his wife, Lady Godiva," is not a copyvio. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 22:17, 26 October 2022 (UTC)reply
About my opinion that "the Earl of Mercia and his wife, Lady Godiva," is not a copyvio in this context, I should get a second opinion on that, so I'm pinging
Diannaa. Do you think my reasoning is correct in saying that? --
Tryptofish (
talk) 22:26, 26 October 2022 (UTC)reply
That is correct, Tryptofish. People's names and hereditary titles are not copyright. Neither are names of schools or places or job titles. Martinevans123, you must not have noticed that I already described the sequence of events in my own words when I said "the Saxon bldg of Leofric's time was the first on the site, and the second was built after the Norman invasion. The crypt and four piers are all that remain of the Norman bldg. Much of what is still present on the site dates from 1220 and later." This sample prose needs a little work but it's the way I would write it. I didn't really understand the sequence of events until I read the second source (
this one). People who live in places other than the UK won't know when was Saxon times or which came first, Norman times or Saxon period or Gothic construction so it's best to identify them by years if you can. Or at least list them chronologically. —
Diannaa (
talk) 23:19, 26 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Many thanks for clarifying that, Diannaa. I would certainly agree with you that using multiple sources is better than using just one. I did notice that you described the sequence of events in your own words, but I was trying to determine how I could have avoided the copyright violation of that one single paragraph that you have removed. Your suggestion seems to be "The Saxon building of Leofric's time was the first on the site". I had thought my piped links to
Saxon,
Earl of Mercia and
Lady Godiva would help the unfamiliar reader. But maybe the first of those is
WP:OR? I included Godiva as she is quite a well-known person. But I guess you might think she is just "unnecessary detail", even if her name is not copyright.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 11:55, 27 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Sorry, it was just a rough outline of the sequence of events, and was not intended to be the version that was used in the article, since it's missing details, wikilinks, dates, names, etc. If you could work on how you would modify it to add in the missing details, make decisions on which wikilinks to include and which details to include and how you would word the subsequent finished text, that would be helpful. —
Diannaa (
talk) 12:17, 27 October 2022 (UTC)reply
I see, thanks. It seems that we all agree that what is already there, in the second paragraph, based on the NHLE listing, is perfectly adequate. I think I'd use all those wikilinks again, unless anyone could suggest better ones. Tryptofish has already suggested a possible version above and you don't seem to object to it. Perhaps IP24 would also like a say.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 12:22, 27 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks, Trypto. I hope IP24 didn't mind you jumping in there too much. I think it was an actual Saxon church. not just in the Saxon style? That's why I pipe linked to
Anglo-Saxon architecture. I had thought the endowment of the manor to the monks gave some historical context. But perhaps you think that's just unnecessary detail?
Martinevans123 (
talk) 11:30, 27 October 2022 (UTC)reply
About Saxon and about endowment, the way I wrote it is simply because I really don't understand what the source is saying. As for leaving out the endowment material, that was mostly because I didn't understand it and figured that it would be best to not attempt to capture it. A revision of what I wrote could be:
Two churches had been built previously at the same location. A Saxon church was endowed to the monks by the Earl of Mercia and his wife, Lady Godiva.
I still don't know whether that gets the substance of it right, but I think it works from the perspective of copyvio compliance. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 20:13, 27 October 2022 (UTC)reply
"This Noble Manor of Newerk was by the famous Leofric Earl of Mercia, and his most pious Lady Godiva, given with Flatburch in this County, (now Fledborough) to the Monastery of Stow near Lincolne, in the time of King Edward the Confessor, who with his Queen and Nobles was present at, (fn. 1) and consenting to the Agreement made between the said Earl and Countess, and the Bishop Wulwi, that they should have Priests there, and altogether the same Service which was in St. Paul's at London, and that the Lands they should give, should be for the Food and Rayment of the Brethren (or Friars) there."
So I assume Leofric and Godiva endowed the land at Newark, or at least it's taxes, to the monks, on which they could "have Priests there". Does this mean that the church was already established there? I suspect it does. But there seems to be some dispute, amongst commentators, as to whether Godiva actually held the manor of Newark in her own name. e.g.
here:
"Godiva owned land in Ansty... Her largest holding was in Newark, Nottinghamshire. It is believed that she married twice ... In what is believed to be her second marriage, she married one of the most powerful men in the country, Leofric, Earl of Mercia and Lord of Coventry."
"In the eleventh century Lady Godiva had given the income of her manor of Newark to Stow monastery near Lincoln. After the Norman Conquest the endowment with the advowson of the church passed to the Bishop of Lincoln and in the twelfth century Robert de Chesney, Bishop of Lincoln, gave the church to the Gilbertine priory of St Katherine outside Lincoln and the latter retained control until the Reformation, providing vicars from among their own brethren. Although subject to the Bishop of Lincoln as Lord of the Manor, Newark with the rest of Nottinghamshire lay in the diocese of York and this resulted in much tension as both ecclesiastical overlords and the Prior of St Katherine’s attempted to impose their own wills on the town and church. Sometimes this resulted in violence, as in 1426, when a mob incited by representatives of the Archbishop of York, made a riot in the church, assaulting the vicar, Thomas Marshe.
"The chief benefactors of the church in mediaeval times were the wealthy wool and cloth merchants based in Newark. Not only did they provide much of the fabric and furnishings, they, together with the religious guilds also established about twenty chantries, of which only two chapels remain - the Meryng and Markham chapels to the north and south of the High Altar."
Of course none of this is mentioned by Pask. But I'm not sure how much additional detail is needed.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 22:01, 27 October 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm going to claim a healthy admixture of ignorance and stupidity with respect to the content and sourcing matters. I think it's best if I focus here on wording and avoiding copyvio. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 22:22, 27 October 2022 (UTC)reply
So that makes two of us (although I would settle for just
ignorance in this case). Not ideal when attempting a re-write to avoid copyvio, as the meaning may be subtly and unwittingly changed. When Pask says "they had given Newark", does she mean the manor, or the church, the income, or perhaps all three? That british-history.ac.uk source clearly says the manor, which must have included the church. I'm also assuming that the church existed before Godiva came along for her second marriage (neither
Lady Godiva nor
Leofric, Earl of Mercia tell us which year that was). I'm assuming that the exact year of the first church's construction is not known. But I see that the Leofric article says:
"In the 1050s Leofric and Godiva appear jointly as benefactors in a document granting land to the monastery of St Mary,
Worcester,[1] and the endowment of the
minster at Stow St Mary,
Lincolnshire.[2]"
So one might get away with adding "sometime in the 1050s"? However, I am tempted to add the british-history.ac.uk source and just change and expand to:
I guess we can thank producer
Sam Phillips for that exact touch of vocal echo, which kind of makes it.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:53, 30 October 2022 (UTC)reply
rateyourmusic.com
here says: "Bumble Bee recorded in New York on August 17 1960 by
LaVern Baker (vocals) accompanied by
Jesse Stone's Orchestra comprising
Haywood Henry (flute and baritone saxophone);
Al Sears (tenor saxophone);
Bert Keyes (piano); Ernie Hayes (organ);
Mickey Baker and Carl Lynch (guitar);
Abie Baker (bass);
Shep Shepherd (drums); Ed Barnes, Malcolm Dodds,
Winfield Scott, Nat Smith (backing vocals); Jesse Stone arranging and conducting the performance." (presumably Shepherd vibes)
there's happiness beyond Wikipedia - just returned from vital concert of
OREYA - they came with roughly a third of their normal size, but
what spirit! They promised to send a program - spoken announcements only in the cold church, but the music heated us. Now
off to Graham's! --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 23:17, 4 November 2022 (UTC)reply
That's
very true. Apologies for the
ever lengthening Talk page. I'm not permitted to edit my User page, or my Sandbox or to archive anything.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 09:57, 5 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks for the link. When we performed it in St. Martin, the organist noticed
Gabriel Dessauer in the audience, and also bashed it out ;) - It was quite an audience, with the American friends I just saw also visiting --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 18:29, 24 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Opera and Advent choral music
on my talk, many pics of the singing --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 16:40, 28 November 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm not much of a fan of
British cuisine, but that menu looks well-crafted, so congrats on that. Here in the colonies, we seem to have narrowly escaped what could have been some exceedingly unpalatable fare. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 21:09, 10 November 2022 (UTC)reply
According to the Daily Mail (yes I know 🤮) it won't be shown until 2024, although it was originally planned for this year having completed shooting in January.
[71] I've never been convinced that Alan Partridge in a blonde wig was a good idea, and it may be one of those
Alan Smithee films that the BBC now wishes it hadn't bothered to make in the first place. ♦IanMacM♦(talk to me) 11:02, 11 November 2022 (UTC)reply
I've got an email from Martin, essentially saying (or at least implying) that he's quit Wikipedia, except to ask Cabayi if he sought consensus to do this first? As I found out when my disabling of Athaenara's talk was challenged and reversed, "Talk page access is left for blocked users to request an unblock." is not what
the policy says, which is actually, "Editing of the user's talk page should be disabled only in cases of continued abuse of their user talk page, or when the user has engaged in serious threats, accusations, or attempts at outing that must be prevented from re-occurring."
Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 18:24, 14 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Just an observation but I don't see where Martin asked for anyone to edit for him (proxying). He may have given his opinion about things written on his talk page by others but it can easily be ignored. I see why Tryp warned Martin and I would most definitely caution Martin against pushing the boundaries of what is permissible. As far as asking for an unblock, we all know that would be ridiculous at this point as he has been specifically instructed not to ask for an unblock until the copyright issues have all been addressed. This is common knowledge of what is acceptable in these cases. I think Ritchie has accurately pointed out policy wording. Regardless of how much we may disagree with Martin's actions from the copyright issues to the way he responded on this talk page to queries by others, procedurally he has done nothing wrong and is not creating a disruption. --
ARoseWolf 19:20, 14 November 2022 (UTC)reply
WP:PROXYING prohibits other editors from editing on behalf of a banned/blocked editor. It doesn't prohibit the banned/blocked editor from making the suggestions. It's the wrong link. Anyway, of what benefit to WP is removing his talk page access? In the threads highlighted by Cabayi, his suggestions were productive for the encyclopedia, often in discussion with admins (who didn't seem to have a problem with it) and in one case was specifically in support of the CCI. There's no disruptive behaviour: just harmless "chit chat" and constructive inputs. A sad, petty and pointless thing to do.
DeCausa (
talk) 21:30, 14 November 2022 (UTC)reply
A large number of admins appear to take the view that Talk page access is left for blocked users to request an unblock, despite that not being written anywhere in policy, and as Martin has been chatting quite a bit lately so there is unfortunately always a risk that TPA might be switched off. (And I don't think consensus is required, doesn't that come under individual admin discretion?)
Pawnkingthree (
talk) 23:51, 14 November 2022 (UTC)reply
I think it's more an issue that we have an admin that is calling something against policy that isn't actually against policy and presenting something as policy that isn't written in policy. We have admin's telling an editor that they will effectively block any return to Wikipedia until after the copyright investigation and cleanup is complete which is not only understandable but is actually protecting the encyclopedia from harm. Martin acknowledges that and says he is attempting to work within this block for copyright violations by reviewing the progress and discussing anything with reviewers that they may need him to. He says the investigation and cleanup has become almost stagnant which effectively makes this a permanent ban as he has been instructed to wait until the investigation and cleanup is finished before attempting an unblock request. Now we have his TPA revoked based on an admin's faulty view of proxying policy which means he cant discuss the investigation or cleanup even if he wanted to. The initial block was warranted, this block of access is not. --
ARoseWolf 14:00, 15 November 2022 (UTC)reply
I should clarify that I am not an admin myself, just giving my observations (as a talk page stalker) that the view that a blocked editor's talk page should only be used for requesting an unblock, or working towards an unblock, seems to be quite widespread among admins. But until the policy is changed or updated, I agree that removal of TPA seems unjustified in this instance.--
Pawnkingthree (
talk) 18:32, 15 November 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Cabayi: Can you respond to the objections and the views that you might have acted outside normal policy?
Ritchie333(talk)(cont) 15:09, 15 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks for the ping
Ritchie333. I too got an email but I've been short of time in the last day to handle it.
Taking just the relevant clause of the policy, "Editing of the user's talk page should be disabled only in cases of continued abuse of their user talk page", I'm of the view that the edits following the warning at
#Sir Arthur Streeb-Greebling were continued abuse.
I'd got about as far as deciding to ask
Diannaa for an opinion on the email, but since this discussion is here... Diannaa? -
Cabayi (
talk) 15:33, 15 November 2022 (UTC)reply
As Martin indicates in his email he'd like it posted...
Martin's email
Dear Cabayi,
Apologies for emailing you like this, although this does not seem to be a violation of my current block. I would be very grateful if you did not respond by revoking this ability to email other editors.
If you would prefer me to email another Administrator, and request that they copy this email onto my Talk page, I would be happy to do so.
I think it might have been clearer to all if the original block notice had said clearly: "Your Talk page must be used only for specifically for asking about the block or appealing it, or working on fixing the problem, not for general discussion."
I am also sorry for adding material to my Talk page not related to requesting an unblock. After 206,023 edits, old habits die hard. Editors who have become fronds, over the course of 15 years, probably expect a reply to their messages of support. I was told that it would not be wise for me to request an unblock until the CCI on my edits had been completed. There is no apparent timescale for this and indeed it seems to have largely stalled and been forgotten about. I realise that is not your problem.
Yes my request about the Sir Arthur Streeb-Greebling article was indeed a suggestion for a proxy edit and I took that warning to heart, even though it was from a fellow editor and not Administrator.
The other suggested edits, for those other articles, arose from direct discussion with other editors, mostly connected with how to avoid copyvio. Indeed the blocking editor User:Diannaa herself said this: "If you could work on how you would modify it to add in the missing details, make decisions on which wikilinks to include and which details to include and how you would word the subsequent finished text, that would be helpful."
So I think your suggestion that my Talk page has accumulated "150k of chit-chat", purely because of me, seems a little unfair. As you will realise, I am no longer able to archive anything.
I think we both know that if I was really interested in making "proxy edits" I would probably use more subtle methods.
A request for me to remove any Talk page content deemed to be "inappropriate" would be wholly and immediately complied with. Now I can no longer even do that.
I do hope you could reconsider this block of TPA.
Many thanks for your time.
Regards
Martin.
I didn't say the chit-chat was purely down to Martin, and did consider (and discard the idea of) page protection to prevent editors steering Martin off-course.
Cabayi (
talk) 17:06, 15 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you for responding, @Cabayi. I hate unnecessary pinging but thank Ritchie for doing it in this case. It's been a long week. First, I want to say that I appreciate you immensely. Anyone that knows me knows those aren't just idle words. Your tireless efforts to benefit the community and encyclopedia as both an administrator and a member of Arbcom can not be understated. And you still find time to contribute as a fellow editor. That being said, we are all human. I disagree with the revoking of TP privileges based on principles. You stated that "Editing of the user's talk page should be disabled only in cases of continued abuse of their user talk page" is the basis for revoking TPA. In the block notice above it states "You have been blocked indefinitely from editing for abuse of editing privileges." When I click on the link for "abuse of editing privileges" it takes me to
WP:DE. I want it pointed out that, to my knowledge, no one has complained that Martin's giving his solicited, not soliciting, opinion on this page was disruptive, certainly not those that were on the other end of that opinion. And this can not be construed as proxy editing because neither did Martin ask for anyone to edit for him nor could it be reasonably assumed that those editors would believe that they had no choice other than to edit in accordance with what Martin's suggested advice. His suggestions would be included in any normal evaluation that any editor is expected to take into consideration when editing in a constructive manner. That leads into my second concern. When looking at the block log for the revoking of TPA we get a second reason for this action, "Revoking TPA for soliciting WP:PROXYING." As discussed, what Martin did is not the definition of "soliciting" another editor to proxy edit for them
WP:PROXYING. Therefore the reason of for the revocation is invalid as none of the edits were disruptive nor were they soliciting for a proxy edit. No offense, and I truly mean this, to you Cabayi, but if all it takes is the discretionary opinion of an administrator that a policy violation has occurred to remove talk page access rather than actually following what the letter of the policy states then we have greater issues than a copyright blocked editor giving their solicited opinion on their own user talk page. --
ARoseWolf 17:46, 15 November 2022 (UTC)reply
ARoseWolf, all admin actions are at the discretion of an admin.
WP:ADMINACCT requires that the admin explains their action and is willing to discuss it. Well, here I am.
Ritchie333, thinking on Martin's email and his obvious good-intent, I'm coming around to the idea of swapping the TPA revocation for an editnotice on this page reminding editors that Martin is constrained in his use of the talk page, that Wikipedia
isn't social media and that if their edits aren't about the CCI or a block appeal they should give it a miss. Your 2¢ please?
Cabayi (
talk) 21:26, 15 November 2022 (UTC)reply
In regards to my statements, and I am only responding because I was pinged, I am not at all saying that some discretion shouldn't be given but that discretion should always be firmly rooted in the literal interpretation of policy while also maintaining a connection with the very human side of this community, especially when specific policies are given as a direct reason for the action and especially when that action effectively results to what amounts to a community ban on a fellow Wikipedian who is trying to find a way to still be constructive and show he can learn from his very obvious mistakes. I have nothing but respect for you, our admin corps and policy and I appreciate you willingness to be here and discuss this. I appreciate your willingness to reevaluate the action. I do not plan to say anything further unless I am pinged. --
ARoseWolf 21:50, 15 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, ^ this, very very much. I have massive respect for all the people involved here and I do get it that everyone is trying to do the right thing for the encyclopaedia. But I was very very sad to see it come to this and I very very much hope that we can pull back from this brink: I very much like the last few comments here, which reinforce that hope. Cheers
DBaK (
talk) 23:19, 15 November 2022 (UTC)reply
I strongly believe that restoring TPA for Martin would improve the good spirits on Wikipedia, and would do no harm, per Floq below. Please try,
Cabayi. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 08:25, 16 November 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm not Ritchie, but if you'd value another opinion, I'd recommend restoring talk page access, and (frankly) not getting too worked up about people saying hi, etc. Martin is still a Wikipedian, and isn't banned; he's still a part of our community. Since the block has stopped the disruption - and to be clear I don't contest the actual block - I don't see removing talk page access as preventing harm to the encyclopedia. I'd like to see Martin encouraged (and advised on how) - but not forced at threat of talk page removal - to get unblocked, and help out more at the CCI. But until then, I would suggest not policing the contents of this talk page. Unless there is proxying, but I don't see discussions about the CCI case to be proxying. --
Floquenbeam (
talk) 21:34, 15 November 2022 (UTC)reply
If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the
guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}.
Cabayi (
talk) 11:14, 16 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Martin, I've restored your TPA. Your email shows you get it (for lack of a better way of phrasing it) and keeping the TPA block longer would be
WP:POINTY. If you feel an editnotice would be helpful I'll add one. I hope your CCI stuff is resolved soon.
Cabayi (
talk) 11:26, 16 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you,
Cabayi. I'm glad that you've changed your mind, as it means I won't be immediately resigning from the project. I assume that outcome is also satisfactory to you. I think this interlude, over the past 2 days. was wholly unnecessary, for the reasons given above by me and seven other Talk page watchers. But I would respectfully suggest that policy around TPA might need to be clarified, so that blocked editors like myself know exactly what is and what is not permitted. I intend to continue to discuss possible improvements to those articles where I have made copyright violations, provided fellow editors think that's a sensible thing to do. I do not intend that any of my suggested re-writes are directions for "proxy" edits, to be made on my behalf by other editors. They were and still are intended to be a means of showing that I understand the importance of copyright and to demonstrate that I can add material that is not in breach of copyright. This has been a conscious decision to at least do something, instead of just sitting on my hands waiting for the CCI to complete. Other editors seem to have been supportive of this endeavour.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:53, 16 November 2022 (UTC) p.s. in my email to you the phrase "Editors who have become fronds" was meant to read "Editors who have become friends". Without friends Wikipedia is, in my view, a very dismal place indeed and probably a complete waste of time.reply
I've just gotten caught up on this after having been traveling and off-wiki for several days. In one fish's opinion, the concern about "chit-chat" should never have been a part of the considerations in evaluating TPA (but then again, I'm biased). Floq already pointed this out, but I see no good reason to go all
WP:MALVOLIO on the theory that someone who is blocked must also wear sackcloth. As noted, I previously cautioned Martin about the proxying issue, and I agree that this should be taken seriously going forward. Myself, I'm going to interject when I can, if third parties come here requesting something that would end up as proxying. However, I see that
#Church of St Mary Magdalene, Newark-on-Trent was linked to as one example of where this occurred. I cannot for the life of me see how that fits. It was an effort to contribute positively to the CCI work, and seems to me to have had nothing to do with proxying about content unrelated to the CCI. If
Cabayi or anyone else can explain it to me otherwise, I'm very interested, but absent an explanation, I have to regard that as not really proxying. (I agree with all the other examples cited.) I think this is important, so that mistakes by Martin, by me, or by anyone else trying to help, don't get repeated. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 20:46, 18 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, you missed
all the fun. But we must be grateful that Cabayi changed their mind, after 2 days and 13 minutes.... else I might not be here at all. Just to be clear, WP:PROXYWP:PROXYING covers....
suggesting that someone makes an edit, roughly, along the lines of a suggestion?
suggesting a named editor makes an edit exactly as suggested?
a named editor making a edit exactly as instructed?
(Clearly, when I'm not here, everything goes bad.) Actually, it's
WP:PROXYING. Whether suggesting or instructing doesn't matter so much as whether it's part of helping with the CCI (permitted, and a good thing to do), or about some kind of edit unrelated to the CCI. The latter is a no-no because it's tantamount to editing stuff that you've been blocked from being able to edit, sort of like taking an end-run around the intention of the block (even if the edit were otherwise an improvement). --
Tryptofish (
talk) 21:14, 18 November 2022 (UTC)reply
I see. So just to provide a purely hypothetical example... if I pointed out here that an anon IP had made
an edit to
Dylan Thomas suggesting that
John Berryman had been with Thomas when he died, but that this was wholly refuted on page 99 of Thomas (2008), would that be PROXYING for which I should be blocked? Of course, we don't yet know how many copyvio blunders I've made over at
Dylan Thomas do we. Nor which may have been repaired. Do we?
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:20, 18 November 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm not saying that I think it makes sense, but you should not post that. Unless DT were still alive, in which case it would probably be acceptable to warn about a BLP violation (but of course it would be strange to have content about who was with someone when they died if they were still alive). It's obvious that this gets a little silly, because it's pretty obvious that someone should revert the IP, but you will be criticized for proxying if you post about it here, so long as it's unrelated to the CCI. It's best if you don't do it, just as a practical matter. And if anyone blocks you over this, I will make it my mission to get them desysopped. But don't do it. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 22:58, 18 November 2022 (UTC)reply
I mean, your personal take on PROXYING looks quite reasonable, even from my perspective. A shame it's not part of Wikipedia policy. Or if it is, that's not a bit that's clearly written down? But then "at an Administrator's discretion" is written down, so we're all fine (?)
Martinevans123 (
talk) 23:03, 18 November 2022 (UTC)reply
If I say something, and you think it's reasonable, then we are clearly both wrong. I think everyone should be discreet. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 23:19, 18 November 2022 (UTC)reply
When I've gone through periods of being annoyed at Wikipedia, I've intentionally ignored vandalism etc on my own watchlist. It's only a website. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 22:58, 18 November 2022 (UTC)reply
It's only a website – per @
Tryptofish above – yes, absolutely, this! Wisdom. I feel that I need to say that, along with its close relative It's only an encyclopaedia, to myself several times every visit and I should have said it to myself many many more times between 2002 and now. Sheesh. I sometimes cannot fathom its addictive effect on me ... I am clear that I am sometimes better off logged out and baking or playing the trumpet or whateverthehell! But it's complicated. Best to all,
DBaK (
talk) 13:05, 19 November 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm now offering free tattoos of "It's only a website!" to anyone who wants one on their butt. Highly recommended. Actually just a trick to see other people's butts. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 19:59, 19 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Personally I want a tattoo that simply say's "DON'T!" (With the exclamation point.) I probably need it on top of my hand where I can see it as I type. Right now it's just a flashing sign in my brain that comes up every time I feel like typing out something that may be contentious. It also has musical notes as I see it in my mind and I sing those notes as I hit backspace. This happens a lot. I am a bit of an anomalous mystery but don't worry, most of you are shielded by a screen and therefore not subject to the full force of my colorful enigmatic life and philosophies. You should count yourself lucky. --
ARoseWolf 14:32, 23 November 2022 (UTC)reply
e.g.
Braunston: I made a few edits there, over 8 years ago. It's shame to see it tonight now the target for mindless silly vandalism. If I risk censure for simply mentioning this, so be it.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 22:47, 29 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Archiving - request for help
It seems that blocked editors are not permitted to archive any of their Talk page old threads. I imagine that this is not an issue for those who have previously set up auto-archiving. I was wondering if I am permitted to request another editor to archive on my behalf and/or to set up auto-archiving, just to make the length of this Talk page slightly less unwieldy. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:02, 16 November 2022 (UTC)reply
You can safely do either one, whichever you prefer. I'm reasonably sure you can still set up auto-archiving yourself, since it only requires an edit to your own talk page. Or if you identify which threads to archive, and whether they go in archive 16 or 17, someone can do that. --
Floquenbeam (
talk) 19:10, 16 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you so much,
Floquenbeam. I've always been wary of auto-archiving, from the technical point of view, but I might try and tackle that. But that kind of begs the question - if I'm allowed to set up auto-archiving, why am I prevented from doing it manually?
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:16, 16 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Because in auto-archiving, it is a bot who is editing pages besides your talk page. Manually, you're trying to edit another page besides this one.
Floquenbeam (
talk) 19:18, 16 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, I understand that bit! I just didn't see the huge risk in being able to send stuff to my Talk page archive.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:27, 16 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Oh, I see. It's probably just because it would be too difficult, with too little payoff, to change the software so one could only edit one's talk page and that talk page's archives, but nothing else, while blocked. --
Floquenbeam (
talk) 19:34, 16 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, technical limitations, I guess. The same reason that editors in my position can't be given access to one article at a time. How useful that might be? But you know what they say,
"when the going gets tough, the tough get going" .... (down the pub, in my case).
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:43, 16 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Anyway, I'd really appreciate it if anyone, who has about 45 seconds to spare, could archive February's threads over to this year's page Archive 16, i.e. from "Gaming" to "Well, that was fun.." (...although I'm sorry to lose those links to
Syl and
Norma, both sadly missed). Many thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 20:20, 16 November 2022 (UTC)reply
As a courtesy to you and with your permission I'll assist with archiving your talk page at your request unless someone else has already offered to do that on a continuous basis. --
ARoseWolf 13:42, 17 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Ah, thank you so much
ARose. Please could you do March? i.e. "It's the most wonderful time" to "ITN recognition for Taylor Hawkins". Many thanks indeed.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:14, 17 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Dear
ARoseWolf. Could you possibly archive another month, from "New message from JalenFolf" to "Pink Floyd has an RFC"? Many thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 08:56, 2 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Hi
Moneytrees. Thank you again for your hard work checking and clearing up after me at the CCI. Might I attempt a re-write here of that paragraph at
Karl Jenkins? Many thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:18, 18 November 2022 (UTC)reply
The only bits that I think might be used from AllMusic are:
"The present work is connected in general then with The Armed Man... What the work lacks is a true narrative... Whatever Jenkins may or may not have been in the past, it has been difficult to charge him with diffuseness, but for all the sound and fury involved here, that's what happens this time around." Not too fond of their word "utterances". But some of that might be added as quote(s) by James Manheim?
Martin, the proposed rewrite is only a slight rewording of the original. It's still structurally the same sentences in the same order, which puts it firmly in the province of
close paraphrasing. Content needs to be entirely in our own words to be acceptable. ♠
PMC♠
(talk) 21:46, 18 November 2022 (UTC)reply
I see. Then I'll try and think of some other words. Structurally it's also a lot of proper nouns? As I said, I think that particular order is quite important, as did Jenkins himself. But I suppose that has to be sacrificed in order to avoid copyvio. Any suggestions you can make would be very welcome indeed, e.g. how would you re-write "new text specially written"? Thanks for the advice.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:51, 18 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Honestly, I think you'd be better off taking the tack of summarizing without going into every single detail, especially because this is intended for the article about Jenkins and not the song in specific. "Jenkins' choral work The Peacemakers features extracts from religious texts and works by notable humanitarians. The 2012 recording features the
London Symphony Orchestra and several choirs, as well as guest vocalists and instrumentalists." summarizes the work appropriately without getting down into the weeds. ♠
PMC♠
(talk) 22:00, 18 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Oh, I see. Yes, that would make things very much easier, if unremittingly bland. I guess it's a question of how one compares the significance of the record alongside the world premiere at New York City's Carnegie Hall.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 22:14, 18 November 2022 (UTC)reply
It's clearer and easier to read and has the bonus of not being a close paraphrase. I've integrated it with the article and rewritten the entire paragraph, which was also somewhat awkwardly-written. ♠
PMC♠
(talk) 23:27, 18 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Many thanks PMC. That certainly looks like an improvement to me. Let's hope we don't both get blocked for
WP:PROXYING.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 23:47, 18 November 2022 (UTC)reply
My advice would be: (1) read the source; (2) put it to one side for a few minutes and get a cup of tea (other beverages are available); (3) write what you think it said, using your own words; (4) check back with the source, to correct any glaring errors; (5) publish your text; (6) leave it to other editors to make any further tweaks.
Ghmyrtle (
talk) 20:07, 19 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Many thanks, Guy. I will certainly try that. Publishing anything is a
bit far off for me at the moment.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:19, 19 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Dropping in to say hi!
Martin, I hope you're doing ok. I'm missing your work and your eyes. I hope your great sense of humour is holding up. Sending all best wishes up and west. Anna (
talk) 16:24, 24 November 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm not following all the drama - I'm not really on WP any more - my eyes can't take it. Cockney John from Moorgate misses you too.
The WP is only one bubble of the world. Bubbles are a dangerous things in my view. Bubbles are how wars start. I have started trying to help on a botany website (no coding), with lots of old grannies. Sounds like a sweet bubble you might think, but I can assure you, it's no less pompous, warlike and viscious there. We all need to get out more, it appears. I have bought you are bitter (and slightly twisted). Cheers! (ps. Notice Jimmie isn't sliding from stage left these days, for which I am thankful.) Anna (
talk) 16:40, 25 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Cheers, Anna! Seems Kevin
was right. Ah yes, pompous, warlike and vicious... but there are some bad points too, you know. I'm just a diary,
hear what I say.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 17:22, 25 November 2022 (UTC) I think I went to
the Lipid Islands once. Not a patch on
Barry, mind you.reply
Hello
The4lines, thanks for your action at
Pennance. Could I suggest the following re-write:
Pennance Mine is located on the southern slopes of
Carn Marth, in the Gwennap Mining District, in an area that was worked by
tinners as early as the 17th century. It was previously known as Wheal Amelia. According to
Henry De la Beche, in his 1839 book Report on the Geology of Cornwall, it produced copper. This was corroborated by
Robert Hunt in his 1857 report the Mineral Statistics of the United Kingdom of Great Britain. Copper was produced until about 1873, in which year its output was 147 tons of medium grade ore.[1]
I would welcome any suggestions for improvement. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 20:35, 27 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Martinevans123, Hey Martin. Thanks for the rewrite, I've changed it a bit so it's less similar to the source and added it to the page. If someone wants to improve on this or has any suggestions, feel free. — Signed,
The4lines |||| (
Talk) (
Contributions) 04:11, 28 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Hello again
The4lines, thanks for your action at
Purton, Lydney. When I look at
British Listed Buildings I see the statement: "All original material on British Listed Buildings by British Listed Buildings is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 UK: England & Wales License." Just for future reference, I wonder could you briefly summarise how I might tell if material at that site is protected by copyright or not? Many thanks for your help.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:39, 29 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Hey Martin, that website is fine to copy from as long as it's attributed correctly. The thing is, its seems like the copied material is from
this site, which is not ok to copy. I'm not sure if the website copied it or something, but that's why I had to remove it. Hope this helps. — Signed,
The4lines |||| (
Talk) (
Contributions) 00:16, 30 November 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm very surprised. So before I can use any material from British Listed Buildings, I have to check it's not been copied from british-history.ac.uk? BLB doesn't even mention that source. It says this:
Licence
Listed building data is obtained from three sources:
I had assumed that the term "data" also includes descriptions. Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 08:48, 30 November 2022 (UTC)reply
I've done more digging and its seems like British Listed Buildings and british-history.ac.uk do not share any text. BLB is ok to copy from as long as you attribute it properly. The material I removed was from british-history.ac.uk and was copyrighted. — Signed,
The4lines |||| (
Talk) (
Contributions) 02:23, 1 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Many thanks for explaining. But probably best not to simply copy from BLB, as their listings often appear quite dense and full of architectural terms? Could I suggest possibly something like this:
The manor farmhouse is a Grade II*
listed building. It dates from 1618 and lies immediately above the
Chepstow/Gloucester railway line which passes in a deep cutting at that point. It has a principal block which is parallel with the river and a deep wing which projects back to the north-east, with a small extension added in the 19th century. British Listed Buildings describes it as "an important survival, somewhat modified over the centuries".[1]
The current text starts "Purton Manor, which stands on a cliff overlooking the Severn, dates back to the 16th century." But I'm not sure where that date comes from. Perhaps it was from british-history.ac.uk? Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:50, 1 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Yeah, the date comes from british-history.ac.uk. "The low west range of the present house was probably built in the 16th century" British-history.ac.uk also says "The north-eastern ground- floor room has a moulded plaster ceiling and an overmantel bearing the date 1618" So 1618 is the earliest known date for the manor. As for your suggestion, I think the last sentence is unnecessary. But other than that, I think it's good. — Signed,
The4lines |||| (
Talk) (
Contributions) 01:50, 2 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Many thanks for checking and adding.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 08:53, 2 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The new organ was based on the 1885 design of Henry Willis. It was dedicated on 17 November 1898 (
St Hugh's Day). Although it was intended to be the first electrically powered cathedral organ in the country, it had to be pumped manually, by soldiers of the
Lincolnshire Regiment, because the power station for the city had not yet been commissioned.[1]
Looking at this, I think this is way too similar to the source. This is well in the range of close paraphrasing. Here's a comparison of both texts, the bolded words overlap from both texts: The new organ, based on Willis's 1885 design, was dedicated on St Hugh's Day, 17 November 1898. It was intended to be the first British cathedral organ to be electrically powered. As Lincoln's power station had not yet entered service, however, it had to be pumped manually by soldiers of the Lincolnshire Regiment.
I don't think you fully understand that you MUST write it in your own words. This is really important Martin, especially if you want to be unblocked one day, you must show that you can write in your own words. I would follow the tips given by other editors above to make sure the text is written in your own words. — Signed,
The4lines |||| (
Talk) (
Contributions) 03:44, 30 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Hi
The4lines. How would you put "St Hugh's Day", "17 November 1898" "power station" and "the Lincolnshire Regiment" in your own words? Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 10:35, 30 November 2022 (UTC)reply
The source did contain valuable information, so I’ve reworded and reinserted. I hope it meets the need. Certainly, Earwig is now content, with this section,
[72]. However, there remain close similarities with text on this site,
[73]. It appears to be a blog and I can’t tell which came first. It’s by no means uncommon for other sites to copy from us - I’ve seen many examples with some of my own contributions! There are some hints that suggest the blog copied from here, e.g. the second sentence of the second para. of their introduction ends with “[5]”. This corresponds to the fourth sentence of the second para. of our lead where [5] is the link to Citation 5. In the blog it leads nowhere. An editor with more technical competence than me should be able to untangle it.
KJP1 (
talk) 07:27, 30 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you KJP1. That's really very useful. I have copied your version here for reference:
This, together with other private gifts and a public subscription, allowed work to progress and on
St Hugh's Day, 17 November 1898, the organ was inaugurated at a service attended by 4,700 people. Willis had intended that the organ be electrically-powered, the first organ in an English cathedral to be powered in this way. As the
Brayford Wharf Power Station had not yet been completed,[2] manual power was instead provided by infantrymen from the
Lincolnshire Regiment.[3]
I was struggling to find my own words for "Willis's 1885 design", "dedicated", "St Hugh's Day" "17 November 1898", "cathedral organ" "Lincoln's power station", "pumped manually" and "soldiers of the Lincolnshire Regiment."
Martinevans123 (
talk) 08:55, 30 November 2022 (UTC)reply
KJP1, Thanks for your rewrite, that will work perfectly. As for the blog in question, I'm almost certain that the blog copied from us. The "[5]” is a big indicator that they copied from us. I've seen that a lot with places that copy from us. Most likely, whoever was copying the page forgot to take it out. Martin, proper nouns like "St Hugh's Day" and "the Lincolnshire Regiment" don't have to be put in your own words. What I mean is you just reworded a slight bit. They were still basically the same sentences and sentience structure which puts it under close paraphrasing. — Signed,
The4lines |||| (
Talk) (
Contributions) 00:19, 1 December 2022 (UTC)reply
No they don't have to be... because they can't be. As regards "sentience structure", I often find myself constrained by chronology. But thanks, anyway.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:16, 1 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Martin, I glance at your talk page, which is on my watchlist, from time to time to see how you're doing. And I have to be honest I'm completely shocked by this thread. I'm shocked by your text re-write at the begining of this thread and which clearly can't be used and which is exactly what you got in trouble for. It's got nothing to do with following a chronology or using the same words like St Hugh's day. You've followed the original almost exactly. Compare it with what KPJ1 wrote it's poles apart. But what I'm even more shocked by is the "Oh well" thanks anyway at the end of your last post. This thread is absolutely at the core of your problems. I have to say it, I'm afraid. I can't see you ever being unblocked until you get that. Do you really not see what you did wrong in your original text and how you could avoid doing it?
DeCausa (
talk) 19:00, 11 December 2022 (UTC)reply
"De", always great to have a bit of encouragement. Very sorry to hear you are shocked. No, I really was struggling to find my own words for "Willis's 1885 design", "dedicated", "St Hugh's Day" "17 November 1898", "cathedral organ" "Lincoln's power station", "pumped manually" and "soldiers of the Lincolnshire Regiment." In this case the chronology could have been swapped around a bit, although KJP1 also thought that not necessary. I'm extremely grateful for KJP1's example re-write which teaches me a good lesson. But I'm not too sure I'll benefit from more scolding, sorry. As for being unlocked, the pace of the CCI suggests that I won't actually be around if and when that ever happens. Perhaps you'd care to offer your judgment on
St Mark's, Mayfair below? Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 19:18, 11 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Good luck and don't worry. I'm taking you off my watchlist.
DeCausa (
talk) 19:22, 11 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I'd also like to thank
The4lines, of course, for their patience and encouragement. But I guess you won't see this.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 11:14, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Just a general-purpose Hello of Encouragement'n'Goodwill™. I hope that leaving it here does not break any rules. Cheers,
DBaK (
talk) 08:25, 30 November 2022 (UTC)reply
Today, we sing for a Marian feast, I learned that
Yvonne Ciannella died, the soprano who impressed me in
my first night at the opera, and as she died in March, sadly no Main page reverence is possible, - at least she had a good DYK, at a time when opera singers were considered interesting. I'm proud today that
Christiane Hörbiger made it to that corner, and happy that we celebrate the birthday of
Jean Sibelius again. Please check out
Volodymyr Kozhukhar whom I nominated for it. - I heard an excellent Christmas concert yesterday, by
Tenebrae, and a short excerpt of them singing "
Deo gracias" is also linked from my talk. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 20:28, 8 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Lovely scene! -
Today was a day rich in music, with two new pictures, and also rich in
WP:QAI contributions on the Main page: the TFA, 2 DYK and 2 RD with members as principal editors. The church pictured there (not by me, nice snow dust and tall evergreen) comes with memories, detailed on my talk. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 21:10, 11 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks as ever, Gerda, for your positive posts. Another contributor to my Talk page suggests to me that I might as well just
get my coat.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 22:05, 11 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I'd be left in the cold, please don't. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 22:21, 11 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I am experienced in helping blocked editors editing, DYK?
Easter egg tree was developed in a German sandbox, and I checked it out and published it here, - it went to DYK for Easter that year, and then the author was set free. - You can work in the German Wikipedia, and only copy the code to this talk to try out the links (but please don't hit "publish"). If there's no rush, it could also just sit in a sandbox until you can move it yourself. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 10:43, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Ah thanks, Gerda. That's very ingenious. I guess I could also always use my "
Pwll Tywod" at cy.wiki (or any other language variant?) But for now I'm quite happy posting suggestions for re-writes here, where other editors can easily scrutinise them.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 16:07, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
That's fine! - Latest pics, with an opera discovery and some snow.
Today my talk has a DYK that was planned for 22 November, among the recent deaths the author of
Duck, Death and the Tulip, and now a choir pic of "our" concert last Sunday, likely to become next year's lead image. Enjoy. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 20:30, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Enjoy the season, dreaming of peace! --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 16:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)reply
can't see, asks me to confirm that I'm adult --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 17:07, 20 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I can vouch for you being an adult. It's not really "adult material"! Her name is
Teresa Mannion at
RTEMartinevans123 (
talk) 17:11, 20 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Nadolig Llawen a Blwyddyn Newydd Dda. For you Gerda: Best wishes for a peaceful 2023.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 10:45, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you so much, Martin, I'll place it among the treasures received, on my talk. Perhaps ping others to whom you wish the same. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 11:00, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Hello again,
Moneytrees. Thank you for your edit at
St Mark's, Mayfair. Could I suggest this to re-start a section on "Music":
St Mark's has musical associations with
Victorian opera, with the opera oratorio singer Sir
Charles Santley and also with the composer Sir
Arthur Sullivan. J. W. Elliott, a former organist at the church, composed the tune "Day of Rest" for the hymn "O Jesus I Have Promised".[1]
Notable choral musician John Williams, who was organist in the 1950s, became the first Master of Music at the
Tower of London.[2] Margaret Cobb, also organist at the church, became the first woman to play the organ at a
Promenade concert in the
Royal Albert Hall.[1] Other organists have included Charles Hart (1797-1859), D. Hodsoll (1871-1926) and Thomas Grosch (1900-1982).[3]
The church as a three-manual organ by
J. W. Walker & Sons Ltd which has recently been re-commissioned. There are plans to re-develop the instrument, with the assistance of organ builders Bishop and Son.[1] The original organ, by
Rushworth and Dreaper, was moved to
Holy Trinity Brompton when St Mark's became redundant.[4]
St Mark's has held concerts by the London Russian Music School and it has also been the venue for concerts by such musicians as violinist
Nicola Benedetti, and other choirs and ensembles from the locality.[1]
Many thanks Moneytrees. Unless I am mistaken, the material you cut or rephrased, that was too close to the source, was this:
Notable choral musician John Williams, who was organist in the 1950s, became the first Master of Music at the Tower of London. Margaret Cobb, also organist at the church, became the first woman to play the organ at a Promenade concert in the Royal Albert Hall. Other organists have included Charles Hart (1797-1859), D. Hodsoll (1871-1926) and Thomas Grosch (1900-1982).
The church as a three-manual organ by J. W. Walker & Sons Ltd which has recently been re-commissioned. There are plans to re-develop the instrument, with the assistance of organ builders Bishop and Son. The original organ, by Rushworth and Dreaper, was moved to Holy Trinity Brompton when St Mark's became redundant.
I am very keen to learn how those details might have been satisfactorily re-phrased. Similarly, I was wondering how the phrase "first Master of Music at the Tower of London" might be rendered in a way that wasn't "close." Many thanks for your help with this.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 09:24, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
There was some overlap with
this source; I removed details and phrases that I felt was unneeded; there's limited phrasing here given the bareness of the facts, but it is possible to convey the core important information. The detail about St Mark's becoming "redundant" was close to the source and was also ambiguous in its meaning to me. The big about "the other organists" wasn't copied and is fine, it's just that I'm unsure of the reliability of the source cited to it, and meant to ask you more about it; doing some research, it seems the author has published books on organists, but I am unclear on what his relationship is with the publisher, it seems potentially self published? Or am I missing something?
Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 07:17, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks Moneytrees. That's a lot clearer. If you think those were "unneeded" details, then fine. As long as your trimming is not used as an argument that "I don't really understand copyvio". I had assumed that "redundant" could mean only
Redundant church, to which I should have linked. This should really be mentioned in the History section. I also had doubts about that Henshaw source, so thank you so much for looking a bit deeper. It could be a
WP:SPS. I'm guessing that one or more of his books might contain these details.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 09:11, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
p.s. John Williams (1920-2002) might also deserve an article in his own right. Here are obituaries for him at
The Times and
The Daily Telegraph.
Request for archiving
Could anyone possibly archive another month, from "New message from JalenFolf" to "Pink Floyd has an RFC"? Many thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 14:50, 11 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I cut April to the archive. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 22:25, 11 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you very much, Gerda. There might be a lot more archiving to do, before too long.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 11:21, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
How is this: I archive it all (until here), and then you can delete here what you think is no good today's reading? --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 12:30, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Let's just stick to one month at a time? If you could do "When ye go away" to "RIP Lester Keith Piggott" I would be very grateful.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 12:45, 12 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Hi again,
Moneytrees. Thank you for your edit at
Uley. Could I suggest this as a replacement:
* Downham Hill, which lies just to the west, is known locally as 'Smallpox Hill' because of the
smallpoxisolation facility which stood on the top of the hill many years ago. It is believed to have been one of the earliest isolation hospitals in England. Masonry from the buildings remains visible at the site.
There are also remains, near the hilltop, of a tower-like dwelling constructed in 1346 during the reign of
Edward III.[1][2]
^"Archived copy"(PDF).
Archived(PDF) from the original on 4 March 2016. Retrieved 29 March 2015.{{
cite web}}: CS1 maint: archived copy as title (
link)
^"Newbrook Farm near Uley". Cwr.naturalengland.org.uk. 3 December 2007.
Archived from the original on 2 April 2015. Retrieved 29 March 2015.
I tweaked this a little more and
then added it. I just want to note, in an above section you say you're going to appeal after the CCI is completed-- unless I missed that being a voluntary thing on your end, you don't need to wait for it to be finished; there's a few editors who've been blocked and the unblocked while their CCI was still open.
Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 05:46, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I see, yes, thank you. You added Near the hilltop are remnants of a tower-like dwelling constructed in 1346 during the reign of
Edward III. Is this version less close to the source? And the other tweaking was also to avoid violation of copyright? I'm surprised you didn't want to link to
isolation facility, but I'm assuming that's not a copyvio issue. Many thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 09:55, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
p.s. the first source also has "Uneven ground on the north flank of the hill is associated with medieval rabbit breeding, known as warrening." Given that we have articles on both
Cuniculture and
Medieval cuisine, perhaps this detail might also be usefully mentioned?
Martinevans123 (
talk) 10:25, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
As regards unblocking, is there anything written down as policy? Or is it wholly a matter of "Administrator discretion"? It was my firm understanding that the consensus was that I should not request an unblock until the CCI was complete. The thread
#Thoughts on unblocking Martin hardly came to any clear conclusion. Very recently, at
#Lincoln Cathedral above, DeCausa has suggested that I have no real understanding of copyright violation or how to avoid it. So I'm really not sure that any request from me would be welcomed. I realise that the CCI is not being done for my benefit, but "to protect the project". But I have no way of helping it or of ever making it complete.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 10:49, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Here's my advice about that last part, for whatever it's worth. For the time being, I'd suggest that you continue to do as you have been doing, working here on your talk page to help with the rewriting. Strictly speaking, the completion of the CCI is not necessarily the time marker for making an unblock request, although it's prudent to take your time before making a request. (Requesting too soon is likely to backfire.) What you just noted about what DeCausa said is actually a good pointer to what you should focus on now. Here's what I mean by that. As you post suggested rewrites, you should work towards where editors working on the CCI will say something like yes, that's exactly the way that I am going to put it on the page. Right now, what's happening is they are taking what you suggest, and cleaning it up further. As long as they are continuing to feel like they need to work on it some more, beyond what you have provided, editors will see that as Martin hasn't really learned the lesson completely. I suggest that you should set, as a goal for yourself, getting to where you really understand how to rewrite the content in a copyright-compliant way, on your own. When the community is satisfied that you have learned how to do that, on your own, is when the community will be happy to unblock you. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 19:53, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm still waiting for some clarification from Moneytrees on the "clean up" on these last two. I'm sorry, but I'd never presume that editors working on the CCI would ever say something like yes, that's exactly the way that I am going to put it on the page. I'm just trying to avoid copyvio. But I appreciate your positive advice.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 20:12, 14 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Sorry, I should have said I truncated the hilltop sentence in a way I thought was more concise, no copyright issue there. I didn't notice that isolation hospital wasn't linked in the article, I've added it now along with the bit about rabbit breeding. Note the comparison between the sentence I added and the quote from the source. Tryptofish gives good advice above, my thoughts mostly mirror his. This block isn't a community ban or anything, so an individual admin can unblock you. The best case scenario for you and the CCI is you getting unblocked and then assisting in identifying and rewriting issues at the CCI. Regardless of what path you take, if you want to be unblocked you must provide reassurance and that you have a better understanding of copyright. The repeated re-writes is a viable way to make progress towards an unblock, although more time is still needed from where I'm at.
Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 06:24, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you very much for clarifying that, Moneytrees. I think I do already have a better understanding of copyright. Hopefully I can actually demonstrate that with practical examples here. And I would be happy to help at the CCI if unblocked. If this is a valid pathway from this block, I'm surprised it's not clearly written down somewhere. But I fully agree with you and Trypto that the best option for now is to post more re-writes here and ask appraisal from other editors.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 09:21, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I appreciate you, Martin. I know this entire process has been frustrating for you but I believe you will be a better editor on the other side of it. I also appreciate the ones working on the CCI. No one can ever doubt or discount your contributions to improving the encyclopedia. Trypto almost always gives amazing and accurate advice and I have come to appreciate him more over this past year. Anyway, I'll be starting my winter hibernation here soon and I just wanted to let you know that I see the improvement you are making, Martin. --
ARoseWolf 14:52, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Unfortunately it involves leaving Wikipedia for a few months. I hold off as long as I can but the winters are pretty harsh and at some point we have to conserve power as much as possible with the shorter days. I have to calculate our fuel down to the gallon. We do that towards the end of our Summer. At the same time I also calculate our dry provisions and other necessities to get us through the Winter. We don't have roads, we have trails and the limited "roads" (really just wide trails made by our equipment) we do have are located around the lake. We have two airstrips though only one is really operable at the moment and we have a float plane dock so that's the primary way we receive bulk supplies. For anything we need, and can't find in nature, outside the window of air supply we dog sled to closest community where we can get the few supplies we need. We can either pay for the supplies are trade for them with the latter being the primary way of things here. That's just a glimpse into my world outside Wikipedia --
ARoseWolf 17:13, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Wow, I had no idea. How amazing. Thank you for putting Wikipedia copy-vio into
some perspective. Very best wishes for the Winter.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 17:45, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I honestly wasn't really trying to put anything in perspective but thank you for your best wishes. And my hope is for an amazing year ahead for you, Martin. --
ARoseWolf 18:28, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm sure you weren't, ARoseWolf, but that's what
real life tends to do. Thank you so much. Your sensible and considerate comments here mean so much to me.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:42, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Hi again
Moneytrees. I was going to try a re-write at
Simon McBurney of the brief details I added 7 years ago about the production The Encounter, but the
source there no longer appears to work and I am unable to find an alternative at EIF. I guess it must still have been working back in September. Perhaps
this one could be used instead. I was keen to add some detail, as the production has no article. Many thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 14:09, 15 December 2022 (UTC)reply
It's archived here. I tend to remove copied plot summaries without rewording or with minimal rewords, as I consider the summaries non-essential detail. I think it's better to write a summary only if you're familiar with/seen the play rather than copying it from a source. In general avoiding plot summaries for stuff you haven't seen is a good way on cutting down on violations.
Moneytrees🏝️(Talk)Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 06:33, 16 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Many thanks for that archive. The words in question are these:
"McBurney tells the story of photographer
Loren McIntyre, who in 1969, found himself lost amongst the remote
Korubo people of the Javari Valley, on the border between
Brazil and
Peru."
I also thought the fact it was a World Premier was significant. And that it had greater relevance in the article as it supported the lead image in the info box and the adjacent image in the main body. I must admit I had always thought that plot summaries were "in the public domain". So, you're saying that I unless I have actually seen a play/ film/ programme myself I can't add a plot summary? Even then, if I have seen it, and I see a plot summary that looks to me 100% accurate, I can't copy it? But how can anyone else possibly know if I have seen it or not? You also seem to be saying that, in this case, it's just "non-essential detail", not a copyvio? Thanks for your help with this.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 08:51, 16 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I re-added the bit about the premiere. The passage is a copyvio on the smaller end but should still be re-worded. No, film plot summaries are not in the public domain/compatible with Wikipedia's license unless otherwise specified. You'd think there'd be a site other than Wikipedia that would release them, but
nope. From experience, I know that users copying plot summaries from sources for media they haven't seen is one of the more common forms of copyright violation. This is sometimes done to make the article less "bare" ensure that a newly created article is seen as "notable"; I advise editors that plot summaries don't actually contribute to notability, so one isn't always required. An article won't sink without one, which is why I consider it "non-essential". As for an article about an actor, I think it's usually more important to note them starring in/being involved with something rather than what the media was about. Of course, that can vary between cases, like if a role was important to their image and development of their career etc.
But there's obviously no way to know for sure if someone has seen something or not. Of course, you can add a plot summary based on a source synopsis, but if you're looking to avoid copyright issues, it may be best to avoid doing so. I hope that makes sense.
Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 06:29, 17 December 2022 (UTC)reply
That's all very clear, Moneytrees. Many thanks for that explanation. Does that mean personal plot summaries (which obviously require the editor to have seen the work) are just
WP:OR... is it still necessary to provide a source and re-write the material? And thanks for adding "which premiered." It's pretty basic for "plot" though, isn't it: not even a synopsis, more just a one-sentence description? I see that the
Loren McIntyre article says this:
"In 2015-2016 Complicite staged a one-person performance by
Simon McBurney called The Encounter, which was based on "Amazon Beaming" Loren McIntyre's 1969 journey lost among the people of the remote Javari Valley in Brazil. It has played to sold-out audiences in London.[1]"
That might be a useful addition, as it's more about McBurney than McIntyre, although I guess you will say that the phrase "lost among the people of the remote Javari Valley in Brazil" is a copyvio? Thanks again.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 08:50, 17 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Kind of? There's been long debate over plot summaries being original research, but there's no uniform consensus on the matter unless I'm missing something. So a source for some plot summary section in an article about a film isn't required, but a source should be used if you're noting an actor starred in whatever media and also provide a summary of their role/ that media. The sentence from the McIntyre article was added in
this Feb 2016 ip edit, and yes that part of the sentence is copied from the source so it should be reworded. I replaced the wording with "about photographer Loren McIntyre becoming lost in the Javari Valley in Brazil and his experiences with locals", so that's that issue solved. Let me know if you have further questions.
Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 06:27, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Done. Note "up to 95 per cent of the value" is similar to the source but I would consider it to fall under the narrow "limited ways to say it" category.
Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 07:23, 19 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Hi again Moneytrees. This material has been marked as a copvio from
the BBC source:
"... two of the panels, showing images of
Saint Victor of Marseilles and
Saint Margaret of Antioch. Another panel, damaged during the theft, bears an image of a female saint. The CCT said it feared the panels could be sold abroad."
The three proper nouns can't be re-written. So I can suggest this instead:
".. two of the panels, containing paintings of
Saint Victor of Marseilles and
Saint Margaret of Antioch. Another panel, with an image of a female saint, was also damaged during the theft. The CCT was concerned that the panels could be taken out of the country and sold."
For reference, overlap with source: "In August 2013 thieves "hacked out" two of the panels, showing images of Saint Victor of Marseilles and Saint Margaret of Antioch. Another panel, damaged during the theft, bears an image of a female saint. The CCT said it feared the panels could be sold abroad"
"In August 2013 thieves "hacked out" two panels depicting
Saint Victor of Marseilles and
Saint Margaret of Antioch and damaged another that depicted a female saint." I merged the two sentences to be more concise, which allows the similar phrase to be cut down even more. Your rewrite is serviceable though and "The CCT was concerned that the panels could be taken out of the country and sold" is good, no issues there. I've added it to the article.
Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 05:56, 20 December 2022 (UTC)reply
That's great, Moneytrees. Yes, I was aware of the overlap. Thanks for demonstrating an improvement. It's good to be more concise anyway. I had thought about adding "... recovered by the Metropolitan Police Art & Antiques Unit, after being seen, in a sale online, by a collector." from
this source.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 09:05, 20 December 2022 (UTC)reply
In 1994 the site was sold for supermarket redevelopment, but the Nantwich and Market Drayton Railway Society was able to dismantle some of the buildings and artefacts.[1]
I'm probably just in a complaining mood today, and I'll apologize in advance to Martin for making the comment I'm about to make. But first, on an entirely happy note, I want to observe that Martin provided a suggested rewrite that was entirely accepted by the editor who implemented it (and who, if memory serves, harshly criticized Martin at the time of the block). So thanks to Trainsandotherthings for implementing the edit, and a great big "good for you!" to Martin for this demonstration of progress in the right direction!
And now, I want to point something out that I noticed while viewing the edit, and again my apologies for being a Tryptopain about this. WP makes a big deal about CC-by-SA. And the SA (share alike) is about attribution. (Notice the relationship, conceptually, between the expectation of attribution and the prohibition against plagiarism.) Sometimes, when content is merged from one page to another, we do things to acknowledge the edit history of where the merged content came from. And we've all seen content added after extensive discussion with an edit summary of "from talk". As Martin is getting the hang of this, we are going to see suggested rewrites copied and pasted from this talk page into mainspace. And copied and pasted is a bit different from "I took what you suggested here and modified it further."
I'll hasten to add that I comprehend the idea of the implementing editor taking responsibility for the edit, so no one needs to explain it to me. But taking responsibility, and taking implicit credit, are two different things. And I'm also very sure that taking credit is the farthest thing from Martin's mind right now. But, as a matter of SA and edit history, I'm going to suggest that editors watching here consider noting in their edit summaries where they got the language from.
[74]. Yes, I know that's a quibble, and I'm not criticizing anybody, but I think it's worth considering as a suggestion. --
Tryptofish (
talk) 22:04, 21 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Wishing you and yours the best over the holiday season, and here's hoping 2023 won't bring as much global trauma as 2020, the worse 2021
[75] & fecking 2022!
Ceoil (
talk) 04:08, 23 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Hi, Martin!
EEng 16:41, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
...and to you as well Martin.
GoodDay (
talk) 16:43, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you! Enjoy yours as well.
Ovinus (
talk) 17:15, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks Martin! And all the best to you too. (And why are all these people here clearing phlegm out of their throats? At least, that's what I assume all these
guttural noises are...) --
Tryptofish (
talk) 19:38, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Hi Martin, sorry it's belated but thanks for the holiday wishes and wishing you happy holidays as well! ♠
PMC♠
(talk) 19:34, 26 December 2022 (UTC)reply
I will consider this ping of good cheer from you as a special Christmas gift, Martin, and raise my glass saying a chi hefyd 🫵🏻 !! 🎄🛷🎉🎁☃️🎄🫶🏻
Atsme💬📧 18:49, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks so much, Atsme. I do you hope you are well. Very best wishes to you. Here's the wholly under-rated
Shawn Phillips from
1975.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 18:59, 24 December 2022 (UTC)reply
And a
Mele Kalikimaka to you, old chap! Another year without being sitebanned; I'd say that was quite optimal. Be well, old sport.
Softlavender (
talk) 03:36, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Happy Christmas Martin, and all best wishes for 2023.
KJP1 (
talk) 09:21, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks, KJP1. I really appreciate your re-writes. I trust you might be able to
rescue a few more. Here's a heartfelt Christmas message from
Sir Ian!
Martinevans123 (
talk) 21:40, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Haven't logged in for a few days - if it's too late for a merry Christmas, I'll wish you a happy new year. Cheers
GirthSummit (blether) 13:40, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Martin, what a kind gesture. Thank you! I hope you had a marvelous weekend. This is only about the fifth time I've celebrated Christmas in my entire life and one of very few holidays I have ever observed outside of the Jewish festivals we were made to observe as children. Having a daughter born into US culture kind of changes things. Our gifts this year? They may seem so small to most but for us it is an act of love. Whether it's handmade tools that will help us around the homestead or hand drawn pictures depicting our favorite events from this past year, it makes it more special to me that it is made by the giver. For my part, I made cookies and pies, blueberry and strawberry, and we took them to the few families that live "near" us. For a solid five or six days our house smelled like berries. I may have snuck a few for myself in the process (lol). Fruits and berries are in such low supply that I stashed enough from the summer in cold storage and it was a tremendous success. It takes about seven to eight hours of hard sledding, round trip, to get to most with the furthest being about ten. My two brothers, my daughters father and our trainer were so gracious to do the sledding this year so we got the pies to their respective locations before Christmas day (Hey, if Santa can do it then so can I). I wish so many blessings for you, Martin, and everyone here in this community that I have always appreciated but have grown to love deeper because I have heard your Song's. I sing for and over each of you a song of health, strength, and hope for a more peaceful and prosperous 2023. --
ARoseWolf 14:09, 27 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you, Martin. What lovely images. I hope your Christmas was smashing, everything you could wish for. Joy and peace in 2023.
Although terribly late, I'm wishing you
Happy Gravy Day! from Oz, anyway. Over Christmas–New Year, I've been lucky enough to be
drinking white wine in the sun –toasting you, in spirit. (Don't have the musical sophistication I often see in evidence on your talk page, but these are sentimental favourites here; a little Welsh–Australian "cultural exchange".) Very best wishes,
AukusRuckus (
talk) 12:32, 3 January 2023 (UTC)reply
I'll see if can catch the resemblance in voices, when I get a chance to listen to a bit more. Great band name:
Some of it is pretty nice. Did you mean these
Bruces? Don't think Sir Les ever had a Bruce ... he was, more-or-less, a 'Bruce', I think. I may need to set you some revision homework for your Oz cliché / pop culture knowledge, at this rate. (Which has been amazingly good, if somewhat 'vintage', up to this point.) Oh god, Madge, did you have to go and spoil it all with that
utter dog? "Comments are turned off"! Yeah, really? I wonder why? [Cue hollow laughter/tears of fury here]
AukusRuckus (
talk) 04:42, 7 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Haha. Thanks so much. A very informative link. Sorry, my Oz culture learning stopped sometimes in
the 1980s. Still got a few
Oz heroes, of course. (But I did see the wonderful
Split Enz when they played in Newport! lol)
Martinevans123 (
talk) 10:59, 7 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Miriam! What a treasure; 'course, I have to watch her through my hands / listen to her with my ears ready to be covered, being terrified of what she'll say or do next. And she rarely disappoints. I love her, but I'm a timid sort. The wonderful Enz were really our Kiwi neighbours, but Australians are quite shameless in annexing those we want to claim, so I'll accept the implied connection–and they did work and tour from here. You're one up on me, I never saw them live.
Your knowledge of antipodean stuff is pretty top notch I'd say, and I love me some retro 80s ... although I've never heard that song. And now I've read the WP article, I guess I know why!
AukusRuckus (
talk) 11:22, 7 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, not a patch on the
ice-cream van, of course. But what's that I see
over there? A 36-second sample! A breach of copyright, no doubt.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 12:22, 7 January 2023 (UTC)reply
Happy Holidays
Happy Holidays
Hello, I wish you the very best during the holidays. And I hope you have a very happy 2023!
Bruxton (
talk) 20:29, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
The Christmas gift you didn't know that you wanted...
Well, probably not -
but here it is anyway...! Best wishes for Christmas Day - I hope that you received few socks and less sprouts.
JezGrove (
talk) 20:49, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply
Something seasonal from a guitarist with even less finger function than Tony Iommi. I might need to chop off a couple of fingers myself to improve my playing at this rate - on the bright side, it couldn't make it any worse...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4LMFS0h2S7wJezGrove (
talk) 22:15, 25 December 2022 (UTC)reply