If you ask me to copyedit an article and I don't get round to it, that probably means I've forgotten as I'm poorly organized. Feel free to ask me again. I like copyediting.

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was reading through the amount of changes that have been attempted on Graham Linehan, the amount of stuff you've had to revert is unreal, it does need looking at, I wouldn't know where to begin. That wiki page has been ruined. S2ewey ( talk) 16:56, 8 November 2023 (UTC) reply

I've seen far worse, honestly. There's a group of editors who look after that page and I think it's in reasonably good shape. Popcornfud ( talk) 01:26, 9 November 2023 (UTC) reply

We used "ultimate extinction" because Lincoln used it, repeatedly; see Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln (umich.edu). Maurice Magnus ( talk) 11:35, 21 November 2023 (UTC) reply

@ Maurice Magnus

OK, but that's not a good reason to use it in the lead. It isn't attributed or presented as a quote, so the fact that Lincoln used this term is lost on the reader, and "ultimate" isn't necessary to understand the information — it's just dead weight. Popcornfud ( talk) 11:36, 21 November 2023 (UTC) reply

I once put it in quotation marks and included a footnote, and another editor said not to use footnotes in the lead. Believe me; it sounds better to readers who know Civil War history, even if tautological. Maurice Magnus ( talk) 11:45, 21 November 2023 (UTC) reply

Who is our target audience for this article? Is it people who already know Civil War history, or people who want to learn about Civil War history?

WP:AUDIENCE: Make your article accessible and understandable for as many readers as possible. Assume readers are reading the article to learn. It is possible that the reader knows nothing about the subject, so the article needs to explain the subject fully.

The reader has no way of knowing, at this point, that the phrase "ultimate extinction" was used by Abraham Lincoln. If it's important to know that, then we need to tell them. If we don't tell them, then all we are doing is making the prose slightly worse.

There's nothing wrong with using quotation marks and footnotes in the lead. Whoever told you that was mistaken. Popcornfud ( talk) 14:37, 21 November 2023 (UTC) reply

Sorry that I didn't see your comment sooner. "On a course of ultimate extinction" is just as clear as "on course to extinction," even if a reader doesn't know its origin. It's not a technical term. Maurice Magnus ( talk) 11:47, 28 November 2023 (UTC) reply

Right, but it's one word longer with no added value, and therefore worse from a prose perspective. Popcornfud ( talk) 22:33, 28 November 2023 (UTC) reply

Really, looking at this again, all that's needed is to put "ultimate extinction" in quotation marks and that solves the problem. If the argument is that it's an important quote, then phrase it as a quote. Popcornfud ( talk) 14:07, 29 November 2023 (UTC) reply

		The Barnstar of Diligence
		Thank you for working so diligently and carefully on English band Frankie Goes to Hollywood. Your edits, reverts, explanations and discussions have greatly elevated the writing quality and format of the article. All the best. Miki Filigranski ( talk) 16:25, 1 December 2023 (UTC) reply

Thank your for fixing this. I was in the middle of that. Sometimes my wording isn't the best, as English isn't my native language. JBOOK17 ( talk) 14:05, 18 December 2023 (UTC) reply

No worries. Thanks for adding that info, it makes the article better. Popcornfud ( talk) 14:14, 18 December 2023 (UTC) reply

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Lord Sjones23 ( talk - contributions) 07:30, 26 December 2023 (UTC) reply

First of all, I want to state that I appreciate the "thanks" I received for the edit I made to Off the Wall today. I also wanted to let you know that, since we talked about false titles on the OK Computer talk page, I've been going through and removing them from various music articles, using your essay as my edit summary. I've been doing this for about two months now (feel free to search "WP:FALSETITLE" in my contribution history; the earliest use of it I can find in an edit summary is from late October), and even though I mostly focus on the intro sentences -- "[Insert album name here] is the [number]th studio album by [nationality] singer/band [artist]," adding "the" between "by" and "[nationality]" -- I am increasingly trying to dig into the meat of article and remove false titles where I see them. I'm mentioning all this because of the fact that we had that semi-dispute over false titles six months ago, and I've been using what I learned from that discussion when I spot false titles in articles. You taught me something about the English language that I'm surprised I never knew before then, and I wanted to come here to thank you for that: not only did I learn something new, I'm applying it to my editing of Wikipedia now. Cheers! JeffSpaceman ( talk) 23:57, 30 December 2023 (UTC) reply

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Hi @ Popcornfud. There's recent discussion for the label from which country. Feel free to comment. 2001:D08:2950:669B:17B0:DC3A:526A:7BAF ( talk) 04:52, 5 February 2024 (UTC) reply

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Only marginally related to elegant variation, but I thought you'd be amused by how much fluff I could remove from this article. -- Macrakis ( talk) 20:07, 16 February 2024 (UTC) reply

You're doing God's work. Bear in mind that eventually you will meet resistance from people who say things like "the original flowed better". Cough. Popcornfud ( talk) 22:21, 16 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Cough, cough, sounds familiar. -- Macrakis ( talk) 21:52, 17 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Hi

I disagree with your deletion of the Kele Okereke quote. There is no implication that Okereke is speaking for anyone other than himself, so I don't see how it fails the Wiki standard you cite.

I suggest also that a direct quote from a guitarist influenced by Greenwood is of more significance and interest than the almost parodically inconsequential "In 2008, Guitar World named Greenwood's guitar solo in "Paranoid Android" the 34th-greatest. In 2010, the Rolling Stone journalist David Fricke named Greenwood the 48th-greatest guitarist, and in 2012 Spin ranked him the 29th. In its 2023 list of the greatest guitarists, Rolling Stone ranked Greenwood and O'Brien joint 43rd".

I suggest also that Okereke's statement about keyboards was not meant literally, nor would it be interpreted that way by most readers.

best wishes Bruno BrunoMacDonald ( talk) 14:57, 19 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Jonny Greenwood is one of the most acclaimed and influential musicians of the last few decades. If we filled the article with quotes from every musician who has ever said something about him, it would be extraordinarily long. We therefore need to keep it focused on the most valuable and relevant sources.

Music publications such as Rolling Stone and Spin are considered high-profile and important by Wikipedia sourcing standards. Rankings and observations by these publications indicate notability. Quotes by individual musicians aren't as valuable.

On top of all that, Okereke's statement just isn't that revealing or interesting. He doesn't say Greenwood influenced him, so we can't use it as an example of Greenwood's influence. I agree that his comment about keyboards was probably not meant literally, but you'd have to have an existing knowledge of Greenwood and Radiohead to see that, and so it's just confusing. Popcornfud ( talk) 15:15, 19 February 2024 (UTC) reply

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( t · c) buidhe 02:39, 23 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Wikipedia:FALSETITLE, a page which you created or substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; you may participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:FALSETITLE and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Wikipedia:FALSETITLE during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. NebY ( talk) 13:32, 24 February 2024 (UTC) reply

The redirect Wikipedia:FALSETITLE has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 February 24 § Wikipedia:FALSETITLE until a consensus is reached. NebY ( talk) 14:04, 24 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Hi there, I'm not sure where you meant to put it, but one of the citations you added in this edit removed the short description at the top of the article. I just removed the citation template and re-added the short description for now. MacAddct1984 ^{( talk | contribs)} 18:31, 24 February 2024 (UTC) reply

That's weird, I have no idea how I did that. Thanks for catching. Popcornfud ( talk) 18:42, 24 February 2024 (UTC) reply

I don't care enough to try to change this, but I'm not sure it's trivia when multiple reliable sources use the band's preferred stylization? Seems like you're just...not calling the band what they want to be called? Alyo ( chat· edits) 15:22, 28 February 2024 (UTC) reply

It's not a matter of reliable sources. If we "called the band what they want to be called" then we would write IDLES every time in block caps, but we don't do that because Wikipedia uses its own manual of style and we have a specific guideline about this ( MOS:ALLCAPS).

The consensus in previous discussions on WP:ALBUMS is this sort of stylization is trivial and not worth noting. You could bring it up again there if you want. Popcornfud ( talk) 15:31, 28 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Well sure, that's obviously not what I was suggesting, since my edit didn't include anything in all caps. But at the cost of four words, it seems fairly beneficial to all readers--and there's no WP restriction on "stylized in all caps", so I disagree that it's trivia as we generally use that term. The only discussion I can find was started by you haha, so I'm guessing you feel more strongly about this and go about my day--appreciate the answer. Alyo ( chat· edits) 16:45, 28 February 2024 (UTC) reply

> Well sure, that's obviously not what I was suggesting,

It seemed relevant, since you pointed out that we are "not calling the band what they want to be called". That's right — we don't always call people and things what they want to be called, that's normal. Popcornfud ( talk) 16:57, 28 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Why are you strawman-ing one half of a sentence? It's obviously extremely normal to have "(stylized in all caps)" attached to band/artist names. If you think IDLES isn't as common as Idles, that's fine (ironically then it would be a matter of reliable sources), but otherwise you're just expressing a preference. Alyo ( chat· edits) 22:02, 28 February 2024 (UTC) reply

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. It's not a matter of commonality or reliable sources. Popcornfud ( talk) 22:15, 28 February 2024 (UTC) reply

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Thanks for copyediting/cleaning up my addition! One question though: I noticed that you de-linked racism and transphobia, and am just wondering why those would not be linked? -- Coalah ( talk) 16:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Hey there. Thanks for the addition to the article, it's a good inclusion.

I removed the links from those terms because I estimate that they're commonly understood by readers, and aren't especially relevant to the context of the article, per WP:OVERLINK. Popcornfud ( talk) 16:54, 14 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Okay, makes sense! I was just going by “misogyny” being linked previously in

the article Coalah ( talk) 14:45, 15 March 2024 (UTC) reply

No worries. I've removed that link too now. Popcornfud ( talk) 15:07, 15 March 2024 (UTC) reply

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:The Lion King II: Simba's Pride § Changes to the plot and lead. Lord Sjones23 ( talk - contributions) 00:26, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply

I've just been going over the edits you made in December to "Do They Know It's Christmas?", all of which were unquestionably an improvement to my original prose. You really do have a talent for seeing through the clutter, so thank you for your work on this and many other pages. Richard3120 ( talk) 18:26, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply

That's nice to hear, thank you — especially because my edits are sometimes received much less gratefully. And thanks for adding the material in the first place — it's a lot easier to streamline existing material than research and write the first version yourself. Popcornfud ( talk) 18:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Hello Popcornfud. I've tried to talk to the editor AlNahyan about WP:FALSETITLE, which I've started taking on board as it makes sense, but this editor has repeatedly removed "the" preceding artists' names in articles as it's "just an essay", even slow-motion edit warring (which I've alerted an admin about) here. Their first edit removing the "the"s called them a "typo". I'm sure you've com across a number of editors about the place who disagree with the false title issue so you may not care about another one, but just letting you know there are pop music editors who are actively removing any attempt to integrate them. Ss 112 05:32, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Not only have I come across a number of editors who don't agree with that essay, it has recently managed to generate such outrage that someone started a discussion about it on the MoS talk page.

I think this is a molehill-mountain situation. My policy has always been "I'm removing these false titles, here's an essay explaining why, if you're not persuaded then put the false titles back and I won't challenge it".

I don't like false titles but I don't seem them as a major problem. As frustrating as it is, it will likely remain a divisive issue among editors, and if it ever created such a shitstorm that it came to a MoS decision I imagine there would be no consensus to ban them. Popcornfud ( talk) 10:06, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I've come here specifically to apologise if I've helped the thing to blow up like this. I just wanted to answer the style question (which seemed a straightforward one!) and had no idea it would kick off stuff about needing to move the essay etc.

It's obvious from the essay itself that it's not meant as anything but your explanation of how you see it (which is close to how I do as well).

I wish people would treat shortcuts just as shortcuts . . . ! Musiconeologist ( talk) 13:09, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Nah, it was being dragged to the MoS talk page that blew it up. It was never a matter for the MoS, per WP:MOSBLOAT, and the essay even specifically says that.

If anything I'm grateful to have at least one person in that debate suggesting the essay isn't completely insane (and really it shouldn't be, as it only reflects what several major style guides already say). Popcornfud ( talk) 13:56, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

It's not even slightly insane. It just clarifies why the usage can feel a bit weird. I was gratified that when I answered the question from a gut-feel POV then read the essay afterwards, you were saying exactly the same thing (plus a bit more that I'd not identified). Musiconeologist ( talk) 14:06, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Addendum: looking at that back-and-forth you link to, it is frustrating that some editors are so accustomed to false titles in certain contexts they now see perfectly ordinary uses of the word "the" as grammatically incorrect or "typos". That's really the only part of this whole thing that really makes me grit my teeth. It's like a collective mania... Popcornfud ( talk) 10:20, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Thoughts on definite articles in names. Related to my just-opened discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Music#THEBAND disambiguators. Dicklyon ( talk) 03:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Hi @ Popcornfud. Take a look for which one you prefer at the "Release history" table: "Distributor", "Licensee", "Marketer" or "Promoter". 183.171.122.76 ( talk) 17:21, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

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Precious

Nine years!

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