- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was merge to 2023 Hamas attack on Israel. Given that this is a subtopic of an obviously valid article on a broader topic, the relevant question here isn't just notability, it is whether a standalone article is necessary. In this respect the arguments to keep are somewhat weaker; I only see one strong argument and very little supporting evidence that this would unbalance the proposed target or make it too long. There are also persuasive arguments that the present length is unnecessarily inflated by details that may be unnecessary. I also find the arguments for outright deletion weak, however; there is obviously valid source material here. Vanamonde ( Talk) 00:00, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
Yakhini massacre
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This engagement appears to have little to no independent notability outside of the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel. The name "Yakhini/Yachini" is not very present in recent reports, let alone in reference to a "Yakhini massacre" in any English sources, as suggested by the current title. Meanwhile, the basic facts of the page seem largely unsupported. The one source citing the deaths at this location appears to fail verification, or at least there are no mentions of casualties in the source that is cited in-line for it (unless the details are embedded in the Hebrew-language video but not reflected on page). Of the other sources, all of them from Ynet, one is basically just a security camera clip, another has a mere trivial mention of Yachini/Yakhini, and then there is an interview with a community leader who was in Thailand at the time of the attack. The other coverage out there on the web then seems to largely mirror this, with a few other stories focused on the CCTV footage, but no comprehensive coverage of the events, and no final word on casualties. Overall, I'm struggling to see much of a case here for the WP:GNG of this event as a standalone page outside of the main 2023 Hamas attack on Israel, and I would propose deletion and the merging of any verifiable content into the parent. Iskandar323 ( talk) 08:50, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History, Military, Israel, and Palestine. Iskandar323 ( talk) 08:50, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Crime, Events, and Terrorism. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 10:37, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Delete limited amount of coverage found when I search, most seem to be in context of the larger battle/attack that took place at the same time. Oaktree b ( talk) 13:23, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Delete per above argument. Jebiguess ( talk) 18:27, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Delete per all the above. GnocchiFan ( talk) 23:17, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- Delete and merge verifiable content into 2023 Hamas attack on Israel per the wise words of User:Iskandar323. SaintPaulOfTarsus ( talk) 01:20, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep note there has been English sourced media on this page, CNN, TOI, The Guardian, Haaretz mention it. More detail availed in Hebrew sources (Naturally). A simple google search will find you these sources.
Homerethegreat (
talk) 19:16, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- available* correction of spelling mistake Homerethegreat ( talk) 19:17, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep now that article has been rewritten in NPOV wiki voice with new refs
for now. I’m reviewing the current Hebrew articles and looking if there are any English RS. As I’ve said elsewhere, notable, verifiable and neutral articles of this nature from both sides of the combat broaden Wikipedia knowledge on the combat. If 7 civilians can be shown to verifiably have died then this article would be as notable as the others reporting Israeli or Palestinian casualties. If I am unable to find additional verification I will change my !vote as per OP.- Update:
- - I have summarized the current refs, replaced one English version of a Hebrew ynet article with its English counterpart from ynet, found that one ref doesn’t support its text but does relate to Yakhini, found 3 other English refs which relate to Yakhani
- - I will be putting my final list of refs on the article talk page in the next 10m for others to review (and add to if they can)
- - I will then rewrite (in my sandbox) citing correctly and in wiki NPOV voice. This will take several hours
Ayenaee (
talk) 16:46, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Final update
- - I have completed the rewrite of the article which is now
live. I believe it meets
WP:N,
WP:V and
WP:NPOV. I have given more detail on the
article’s talk page on what I’ve changed and why I believe the tags can be removed.
Ayenaee (
talk) 23:08, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- I'm afraid that it is still not
WP:V (or basically factually accurate). For instance, the page confuses Nir Hajabi, who was on holiday in Baku at the time (and who lives in Kissufim but whose sons lives at the moshav), with Ariel Zahavi, who was in Thailand. These two individuals are being mixed up on page.
Iskandar323 (
talk) 07:12, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- You’re correct about the locations thanks for noting this. I’ve made the change. The individuals weren’t mixed up, I erroneously changed Thaland to Baku, Azerbaijan (for Zahavi), when I just wanted to add the country to Baku (for Hajabi). Are there any other factual inconsistencies you’ve noticed? Ayenaee ( talk) 08:26, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- I'm afraid that it is still not
WP:V (or basically factually accurate). For instance, the page confuses Nir Hajabi, who was on holiday in Baku at the time (and who lives in Kissufim but whose sons lives at the moshav), with Ariel Zahavi, who was in Thailand. These two individuals are being mixed up on page.
Iskandar323 (
talk) 07:12, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Merge into
2023 Israel-Hamas war2023 Hamas attack on Israel - This is a classic case of WP:TOOSOON. There is no way to know if this particular event will meet WP:NEVENT's WP:EFFECT or WP:PERSISTENCE criteria, and it absolutely cannot pass WP:DIVERSE or WP:GEOSCOPE at this stage. I'd argue it is highly unlikely to ever do so on current evidence, but I'd have no trouble with this article being recreated in a year or two if this particular massacre stands out amongst the plethora of atrocities (on both sides) in this horrific and senseless war. Cheers, Last1in ( talk) 15:10, 6 November 2023 (UTC)- Note the article
2023 Israel-Hamas war is currently labeled as
WP:TOOLONG, therefore this doesn't seem like a good option.
Marokwitz (
talk) 10:06, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- For closer: If merge is not accepted as consensus, I am comfortable with Delete. This does not meet the minimum requirements found in WP:NEVENT (see original comment above for policy specifics where I think this subject is lacking). Perhaps in a few years, when we see if this is referenced in secondary sources (of which there are none currently) as more than a footnote in this conflict? Cheers, Last1in ( talk) 17:04, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Note the article
2023 Israel-Hamas war is currently labeled as
WP:TOOLONG, therefore this doesn't seem like a good option.
Marokwitz (
talk) 10:06, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. Article has changed dramatically since the nomination. The word massacre refers to large-scale and deliberate targeting of civilians, and 7 solid citations (excluding one from New York Post) are sufficient for meeting the requirements of WP:GNG and WP:NCRIME. RS coverage both in USA and Israel meets the criteria of WP:DIVERSE. WP:DEPTH is established, for example by the Kan 13 reference . Marokwitz ( talk) 07:35, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep, this is a significant massacre and as Marokwitz points out there are sufficient reliable sources for this massacre.
Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (
talk) 10:02, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
Only 7 deaths does not mean it's notable when over 1,000 other people were killed in other communities. Something like the Re'im music festival massacre is notable as the civilian deaths were over 200. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 (The Garage) 15:21, 7 November 2023 (UTC)After reading some of the other comments, and looking at GNG, I'm taking a neutral stance on this one. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 (The Garage) 15:25, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Hey man im josh ( talk) 15:09, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
Keep - per WP:CFORK, parent article too large to contain much more material. Valid content fork. No opinion on naming.nableezy - 16:19, 7 November 2023 (UTC)- The suggested target was
2023 Hamas attack on Israel, not the war one.
Iskandar323 (
talk) 18:33, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Fair enough, changing to merge. nableezy - 18:42, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- The suggested target was
2023 Hamas attack on Israel, not the war one.
Iskandar323 (
talk) 18:33, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep now that article has been rewritten. With regards, Oleg Y. ( talk) 22:58, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Merge This doesn't make sense. How many articles should we create about this conflict? Dl.thinker ( talk) 23:09, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep This nomination was conducted too early as it didn't allow for more sources to emerge to allow the article to be written using reliable sources. This is technically a current event and I can see through the page history that editors are working on improving the article using reliable sources as they emerge. ElderZamzam ( talk) 01:27, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- Merge. Sorry but seven people in this context is low. We have like a dozen of articles about the murder of civilians that took place on 7 October. This is just a massive duplication of articles, we can easily cover this in another article. The article isn't even that significantly better after its rewrite, it's still short. The rewrite should be evidence that this article can not achieve much more lenght.
Super Dromaeosaurus (
talk) 09:59, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Which part of WP:NOTABILITY requires a certain amount of deaths ? At most, this is an argument for renaming the article, not for deletion. Marokwitz ( talk) 20:09, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Merge to above target; otherwise delete. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 15:12, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep Wikipedia often has articles about events that occur within events, the sources in the article show this meets notability requirements for a stand alone, merging the articles would only make the target larger and this breaks a subtopic is a logical way per SUMMARYSTYLE. The article continues to show improvement (not that AfD should be for cleanup). If a merge is done, hopefully its more than a awkward copy paste merge. // Timothy :: talk 05:05, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:44, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. Notability is not an issue here. All these massacres are notable. There is no case for WP:NOT either, including in the intro. Together these eliminate delete as an option. Merge could have been an option but the text is not repetitive versus the parent, or generic, and not short either. It's a regular WP:SPINOFF of a larger attack and an article about an event that is also notable in its own right. Hence keep is the only conclusion that makes any sense. gidonb ( talk) 14:54, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. There are a diverse number of reliable sources and the massacre is notable like all the other massacres in Israel during the October invasion by Hamas, and since the article has been rewritten in a better format, keep is a better option.
- RowanJ LP2 ( talk) 01:39, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- Merge to 2023 Hamas attack on Israel. Owen× ☎ 00:02, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.