- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. I'm not seeing a strong rebuttal to the provided sources. An individual is not required to pass topic-specific guidelines if they clear GNG. Vanamonde ( Talk) 23:06, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
Bushra al-Tawil
AfDs for this article:
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- Bushra al-Tawil ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
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Nominating this page for deletion as it does not fall under
WP:N guidelines, especially as a
biography of a living person. None of the following information that the article presents is significanct to warrant an entire wikipedia article dedicated to this living person:
1. She is a journalist and human rights activist - her contributions to the field to do not satisfy
WP:JOURNALIST.
2. Her father and husband are Hamas terrorists who have spent time in prison - neither are relevant to her notability as per
WP:INVALIDBIO.
3. She has been arrested numerous times - The perpetrator of the crime is not a renowned national nor international figure, and the motive of her crimes (although poorly documented) is unlikely to be unusual. Therefore this is also not satisfactory under
WP:CRIMINAL.
Given the article cannot establish her notability, I am suggesting that this article be deleted until (if) she does something noteworthy. Dazzling4 ( talk) 19:39, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- Delete: Fails to pass the WP:GNG and WP:ANYBIO policies. - UtherSRG (talk) 20:12, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Journalism, and Palestine. UtherSRG (talk) 20:12, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- Delete: There is no coverage for her in Gnews, beyond being moved to "administrative detention", which seems to happen far too often, implying it's not really a sign of notability here as it's commonplace... Still a sad situation, but nothing needing an article here in wiki.
Oaktree b (
talk) 20:46, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- Try searching Google News for Jordan (google.jo). Sometimes Google News returns country specific (.com vs. .jo) and/or language specific results: [1]
- -- A. B. ( talk • contribs • global count) 23:49, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 21:10, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep: Nomination focuses on all the wrong things here. The notability for this biography is clearly based on
WP:GNG and
WP:SUSTAINED, rather than a particular vocation - news hits for the individual are prolific and span many years, as is plain from even a brief search. The nominator's POV language, "
Hamas terrorists
", and evident fixation on this page, having previously nominated the page for deletion when not EC (resulting in a procedural close), before diving right back into an AfD nomination after passing the 500/30 mark, do not inspire confidence here at all. Iskandar323 ( talk) 04:42, 15 November 2023 (UTC)- As you correctly pointed out, the previous nomination resulted in a procedural close. The validity of the AfD nomination did not play a role in its closure.
- Please refrain from
personal attacks by claiming I have some "fixation" on the page or disparaging my edit count.
Dazzling4 (
talk) 13:40, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- I merely stated fact: you returned here immediately post-500 edits. And while the validity of your arguments may not have played a role in the previous close, your opening statement here is clearly not neutral, per
MOS:TERRORIST, but leans on a POV. Are other editors meant to turn a blind eye to this?
Iskandar323 (
talk) 14:20, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- How does this fact contribute to the discussion? My edit count and EC status are not relevant to Bushra al-Tawil's notability. Dazzling4 ( talk) 14:33, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Use of "Hamas terrorist" is also irrelevant to this discussion since talk pages are not subject to NPOV. Not to mention that the source used to include her family in Bushra al-Tawil#Family describes Hamas as a "terror group." Dazzling4 ( talk) 14:56, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- I merely stated fact: you returned here immediately post-500 edits. And while the validity of your arguments may not have played a role in the previous close, your opening statement here is clearly not neutral, per
MOS:TERRORIST, but leans on a POV. Are other editors meant to turn a blind eye to this?
Iskandar323 (
talk) 14:20, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Delete - I'm not seeing the notability. -- Orgullomoore ( talk) 05:06, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: Worth noting that this page currently exists in five languages on Wikipedia. The subject has a profile on Addameer in Arabic, and there is generally voluminous coverage in Arabic. Iskandar323 ( talk) 05:58, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep per coverage by CFWIJ and Reporters Without Borders, now added to article. Pam D 08:27, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep - The only reason to not keep this article would be if there is another article suitable to merge it into? But i would prefer to keep Palestine related topics separate (unmerged) in case they end up expanding rapidly in the near future.
Irtapil (
talk) 14:38, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keeping articles around in case the subject becomes notable in the future is not Wikipedia policy. Dazzling4 ( talk) 14:42, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- WP:CRYSTAL. Clyde [trout needed] 23:45, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
- Perhaps it can be merged into Palestinian prisoners in Israel? Homerethegreat ( talk) 10:06, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
- Delete: After reviewing the arguments and the subject's coverage, it seems clear that Bushra al-Tawil's notability hinges primarily on her detentions, aligning with the concept of One-event notability. This principle suggests that if a person or entity is notable for only one event (or in this case a series of detentions), they may not merit a standalone article. In this case, the references to al-Tawil predominantly focus on her detentions, with minimal coverage about other aspects of her life or contributions. Furthermore, the main source of information about her, the 'Palestinian Prisoner Solidarity Network', does not qualify as an independent WP:RS. Notability on Wikipedia is not inherited by virtue of being covered in multiple languages or having transient news coverage. It requires sustained, in-depth, and independent coverage by reliable sources, as outlined in WP:SIGCOV.
- I also noticed that at the end of September 2023, Israel was holding 1,310 people in administrative detention, based on [2], so being detained seems to be relatively common. Marokwitz ( talk) 21:10, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- Can you explain how exactly are repeated arrests of a journalist, spaced over a course of more than 10 years, constitute only "one event"? We have multiple sources giving her
WP:SIGCOV over a period of more than 10 years. And even if you're right, then isn't that cause to keep this article and move it to
Arrests of Bushra al-Tawil?
VR
talk 04:07, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
- Her arrests are covered in
Palestinian prisoners in Israel. But, other than being arrested and released multiple times, she doesn't seem much different from many other people. No evidence of notable journalism works; It is not clear what she was accused of, no details of her trial are presented. If she was a notable person, then surely reliable sources would cover such basic things? That's what 'significant coverage' requires.
Marokwitz (
talk) 14:53, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
"It is not clear what she was accused of, no details of her trial are presented."
- welcome to the Israeli justice system and the wonderful world of administrative detention. Iskandar323 ( talk) 14:55, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
- Her arrests are covered in
Palestinian prisoners in Israel. But, other than being arrested and released multiple times, she doesn't seem much different from many other people. No evidence of notable journalism works; It is not clear what she was accused of, no details of her trial are presented. If she was a notable person, then surely reliable sources would cover such basic things? That's what 'significant coverage' requires.
Marokwitz (
talk) 14:53, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:25, 21 November 2023 (UTC)- Delete She served in Israeli prison, is the daughter of a senior Hamas member... I don't see what else is notable... I do agree that its best she be merged into another article. How about the Palestinian prisoners in Israel ? Homerethegreat ( talk) 10:05, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
- Delete - At best, there is nothing more than WP:1E notability. I'd suggest merge but this article violates NPOV with heavily biased and unreliable sources used that it would require a complete rewrite anyway. The sources cited are all about the one event or non-reliable (except for [3] which is a passing mention in an article about her father's arrest as a terrorist). Thmymerc ( talk) 12:55, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep - definitely not 1E, with coverage of her arrests in 2019 and 2020. There is extensive coverage in Arabic in al-Jazeera, al Araby al Jadeed, and el-Watan, and with further coverage by Reporters Without Borders and Coalition For Women In Journalism clears GNG easily. nableezy - 13:22, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
- Delete. First, she is one of thousands of Palestinians in Israeli prisons, so her detentions are not notable. Second, her being the son of a senior Hamas leader, a relationship that has led to coverage of her detentions, is
WP:INHERITED. Third, entries in Adameer and Samidoun, advocacy groups and not RS, are irrelevant for establishing notability. Fourth, most of the Arabic-language coverage cited above is also based on who her father is.
Longhornsg (
talk) 01:44, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
- Notability is determined by sourcing, not by how many Palestinians are held in Israeli prisons. And no, the Arabic sources are about her, which anybody who even uses google translate can see. That also is not what
WP:INHERITED means, what that means is by itself being related, either a person or a topic, to some notable person does not make one notable, but where the sources cover that individual that gives them their own notability.
Addameer is certainly a reliable source, widely cited by other reliable sources.
nableezy - 04:07, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry, gonna have to disagree with you on Addameer. It's an advocacy organization. Though I guess, then you'd agree that the ADL, AJC, UN Watch, et al are RS as well, as they are widely cited in other RS. But this is prob not the place for this discussion.
Longhornsg (
talk) 22:06, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
- ADL is widely cited on WP. Those other groups are not treated as reliable by other sources, so we should not either. Pretending like Addameer is treated like UN Watch is silly, and a basic association fallacy to boot. Each of these things are evaluated on their own merits, not based on some random person on the internet saying "it's an advocacy organization". So is Amnesty International, and that too is reliable. nableezy - 22:25, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry, gonna have to disagree with you on Addameer. It's an advocacy organization. Though I guess, then you'd agree that the ADL, AJC, UN Watch, et al are RS as well, as they are widely cited in other RS. But this is prob not the place for this discussion.
Longhornsg (
talk) 22:06, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
- Notability is determined by sourcing, not by how many Palestinians are held in Israeli prisons. And no, the Arabic sources are about her, which anybody who even uses google translate can see. That also is not what
WP:INHERITED means, what that means is by itself being related, either a person or a topic, to some notable person does not make one notable, but where the sources cover that individual that gives them their own notability.
Addameer is certainly a reliable source, widely cited by other reliable sources.
nableezy - 04:07, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. Hundreds of mentions in the press at least from 2014 to now. Use the spelling "Bushra al-Taweel" to find many things that "Bushra al-Tawil" misses.
Zero
talk 09:52, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
- I think there's actually more under that spelling. Good spot! Iskandar323 ( talk) 12:44, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep There is/are diverse vast news/info/sites on the internet which can indicate her notability. Ali Ahwazi ( talk) 12:17, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep: Per above, there is coverage. Seawolf35 T-- C 18:47, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.