- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was redirect to Saint-Raphaël, Var. The other merges / redirects were not commented on enough to see an obvious consensus; suggest either WP:BOLD redirect or new AfD. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:09, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
Stade Louis Hon
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Fails WP:GNG and notability for stadiums and indoor arenas. ÉFC Fréjus Saint-Raphaël, the club that plays here, has never been professional. The 2013 Toulon Tournament (of which some games were hosted here) is a youth tournament and isn't notable either. Paul Vaurie ( talk) 14:41, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
I would also like to include several other stadiums in similar situations in one big AfD. These stadiums are:
Paul Vaurie ( talk) 14:45, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. Paul Vaurie ( talk) 14:41, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. Paul Vaurie ( talk) 14:41, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Paul Vaurie ( talk) 14:41, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of France-related deletion discussions. Paul Vaurie ( talk) 14:41, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 18:31, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
- Delete Stade Gaby Robert as that is a minor, B team stadium according to the article, and redirect the other four to the parent articles as they are not independently notable but possible search terms:
- Procedural keep I don't like the fact you have combined stadium articles together, they should be treated and assessed individually.
Govvy (
talk) 10:15, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
- Well, they are all kind of in the same situation. I thought it would be a better idea than having 5 different AfDs for pretty much the same thing. Paul Vaurie ( talk) 08:16, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
- I'd be happy to go with Govvy's procedural keep, as they're a bit of a disparate bundle, but if we're discussing them all at this page, I can do that too. In order of listing in the nomination:
- Merge/redirect Stade Louis Hon to ÉFC Fréjus Saint-Raphaël: not just redirect, there's an image, and mention of hosting matches in the Toulon Tournament, which the club article doesn't have;
- Merge/redirect Colmar Stadium to SR Colmar: again, there's an image and a bit of prose needs adding to the club article;
- Delete Stade Gaby Robert: no evidence of notability of either stadium or its tenants;
- Redirect Stade de la Montée Rouge to SO Châtellerault: it's a one-line stub wth no content that isn't already in the club article;
- Keep Stade du Schlossberg. The article states that US Forbach played as a professional club in Division 2 from 1957 to 1966 in that stadium, and indeed came close to gaining promotion to the top flight, which clearly takes it within the remit of the essay on "notability for stadiums and indoor arenas" cited by nominator. The article also mentions an annual international athletics meeting. A search for "meeting elite de forbach" reveals it specialises in field events, particularly the hammer throw, to which it attracts top competitors, male and female [1], [2], [3], whom I may not necessarily have heard of but athletics medal-awarding bodies have: Pawel Fajdek, Anita Wlodarczyk, etc. It's also been listed as a potential preparation centre for foreign athletics teams at the 2024 Olympics, [4] but there are a lot of those. Anyway, there's more than enough athletics-related coverage to make a redirect to the football club inappropriate, and IMO enough coverage in general to meet GNG.
- cheers,
Struway2 (
talk) 12:23, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
- @
Struway2: If there is enough coverage on the athletics part of the stadium, then perhaps we should keep the Stade du Schlossberg, but the Division 2 doesn't help pass the notability for stadiums and indoor arenas because it was not an
FPL - the French D2 has only been pro since 1993.
Paul Vaurie (
talk) 09:24, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
- Your stadium notability page doesn't mention fully professional leagues, which are purely a player notability construct. Criterion 1 states "Currently hosts or has hosted a Professional sports team": US Forbach was a professional club for its time in Division 2, as per the stadium article, the en:wiki club article, and the fr:wiki club article.
- Though are you sure the post-war Division 2 wasn't professional up to 1970, when the distinction between pro and amateur was abolished? cheers,
Struway2 (
talk) 09:50, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
- @
Struway2: Clubs in the Division 2 were not fully professional until 1993, per
WP:FPL. So US Forbach was not "fully-professional" and therefore wasn't a professional sports team in the Division 2. Note that it wasn't like they got relegated to the Division 2, but more that they came from the CFA/Division 3 below.
Paul Vaurie (
talk) 09:51, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
- @ Paul Vaurie: I don't know if this is a language issue, mine, yours or somewhere in between: the stadium notability criteria that you link to is a stadiums and arenas project guideline and refers to hosting a professional sports team, not to hosting a team in a WP:FPL-listed football league. Professional teams can, did, and do exist in leagues that aren't fully professional. US Forbach turned pro in 1957, and lasted 9 seasons before giving up their professional licence and joining the CFA.
- As to D2 1945 to 1970, fr:Championnat de France de football de deuxième division#Le championnat fermé (1945-1970) says that amateurs and professionals were totally separate in that period. D1 and D2 was a closed competition, without relegation. When teams dropped out, they made up the numbers from amateur clubs, which had to turn pro to join. Some didn't want to go pro, so stayed in the amateur leagues. It was only in 1970 when the distinction between amateur and professional was abolished that D2 became open to all: pro, semi-pro and amateur. But this is really a matter for Wikipedia talk:FPL, if anybody wanted to.
- There's a three-page feature about the newly professional club from August 1957 in Miroir Sprint, lots of pictures even for non-readers of French: [5], [6], [7]. cheers, Struway2 ( talk) 13:54, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
- @
Struway2: Clubs in the Division 2 were not fully professional until 1993, per
WP:FPL. So US Forbach was not "fully-professional" and therefore wasn't a professional sports team in the Division 2. Note that it wasn't like they got relegated to the Division 2, but more that they came from the CFA/Division 3 below.
Paul Vaurie (
talk) 09:51, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
- We've had AFDs for at least three lower league French teams recently, all with clear consensuses to redirect, or delete if there wasn't an appropriate team article. Therefore, it's perfectly fine to bundle lots of these similar, low-quality articles together, rather than having a faff of separate articles which will likely end up with similar outcomes.
- And as long as the subject notability (not just the quality of the article) is similar, I'd absolutely agree that bundling is a valid approach. I'd have no problem with the first four as a bundle. But #5 is (IMO) different, and shouldn't have been lumped in with the other four. A better approach might have been to avoid faffing about at AfD at all, PROD #3 as an uncontroversial delete, and boldly (merge)/redirect #1, #2 and #4. cheers, Struway2 ( talk) 12:48, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
- @
Struway2: If there is enough coverage on the athletics part of the stadium, then perhaps we should keep the Stade du Schlossberg, but the Division 2 doesn't help pass the notability for stadiums and indoor arenas because it was not an
FPL - the French D2 has only been pro since 1993.
Paul Vaurie (
talk) 09:24, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
- Redirect or delete I support the rationales from GS above to redirect where there is a valid target, and delete where there is not. Joseph 2302 ( talk) 12:25, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: As a reviewer, I'd rather have these individually nominated. I have a feeling this will sit in AfD longer than other discussions due to the bundling. Regardless, relisting this to merit more feedback since right now it's all over the board.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Missvain ( talk) 16:58, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
Relisting comment: As a reviewer, I'd rather have these individually nominated. I have a feeling this will sit in AfD longer than other discussions due to the bundling. Regardless, relisting this to merit more feedback since right now it's all over the board.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Missvain ( talk) 16:58, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
- Merge and Redirect to Saint-Raphaël, Var. This seems like the best merge target because it's a venue important to the city itself. There are multiple teams on wiki that play here (as indicated by merge proposals above), and their articles could wiki link to the city page when talking about the stadium. 4meter4 ( talk) 16:54, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.