The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
This is a very strange and non notable intersection. What on earth is encyclopaedic about the intersection of football and Jewishness? It is almost as if the article was created to make some sort of anti-antisemitic point (though I very much doubt that knowing the creating editor, and I am absolutely making no accusations of that). The world is not better for the existence of this article and will not be worse for the lack of it. Why does anyone actually care that Fred is Jewish and plays football? Now a list of notable Israeli football players is a different matter. But this list is artificial at best.
FiddleFaddle 22:28, 7 March 2014 (UTC)reply
Note: This discussion has been included in
WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions.
JMHamo (
talk) 00:38, 8 March 2014 (UTC)reply
Jews as an ethnicity and nation. The Jewish
ethnicity,
nation, and
religion of
Judaism are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish
nation.[1][2][3]
Thus, in the (unusual) case of Jews, a nation that was largely dispersed 2,000 years ago from its homeland and geographic borders, it is not appropriate to delete. The Jewish nation lives largely, though now not wholly, in the
Jewish diaspora. Under Israel's
Law of Return, all members of the Jewish nation are automatically entitled, by virtue of being members of the Jewish nation, to return to the geographic borders of Israel, and become Israeli citizens. Other religions are, in the "normal case," distinct from the nation. In other words, there was not a Protestant, Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, or Atheist nation per se. Those who are members of these religions are not members of a nation or "people." Jews, peculiarly, are not just a religion, but are also a nation. In addition to the other points presented above, this is one that militates in favor or a !keep.
By the same token, it is by virtue of being a member of this intersection that one qualifies -- if sufficiently talented -- to play in the
Maccabiah Games, the Jewish Olympics held quadrennially.
Furthermore, the notability of this intersection--as measured by Wikipedia standards--is reflected in the below books all of which focus on all or some of the elements of the list that nom is suggesting be deleted:
Comment - the wall of text that Epeefleche has put above is relying on a lot of
WP:OSE, some incredibly small-scale sources and/or sources of dubious reliability, and a hell of a lot of things that are irrelevant to this topic (meandering off to general sports, athletics or whatever).
Lukeno94(tell Luke off here) 01:23, 8 March 2014 (UTC)reply
It is insufficient to dismiss discussion of related articles on basis of labelling it "Other Stuff Exists". From the "guidance essay"
wp:OSE: "In Wikipedia discussions, editors point to similarities across the project as reasons to keep, delete, or create a particular type of content, article or policy. These comparisons may or may not be valid...." (emphasis added by me). I think in the past that there were lots more truly bad articles, so pointing to them did seem unhelpful, but there has been so much development in Wikipedia that it is increasingly relevant and important to consider our apparent standards reflected in comparable articles. --
doncram 02:56, 8 March 2014 (UTC)reply
If you actually bother to look at the things Epeefleche was citing, rather than following me around and attacking me in AfD debates, you'll see that none of them are relevant to this particular topic, because none of the mentioned ones are directly relevant to football, and only one is relevant to sportsmen and sportswomen.
Lukeno94(tell Luke off here) 10:52, 8 March 2014 (UTC)reply
Keep - a list of Jewish sportspeople would certainly be notable (I noticed this when I found Feierstein's book, Historia de los judíos argentinos, which dedicates a full section to Argentine sportspeople that were Jews), and this is simply a component of such a list (including all sports in a single list would be unmanageable). 03:33, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Keep. the list is more than a handful, so its a significant number, thus of presumable interest to someone. the 2 criteria are very well defined. you are always either jewish or not jewish, and a footballer or not. no one is "sort of" either. lists or categories of intersections of 2 notable subjects are i believe usually kept if definable and notable (ie if there are any that fit the intersection, or more than a few). I think people react to "jewish" as a modifier as it often sounds racist, even when its not meant that way. i find it odd to see in print, but its a gut reaction not usually justified by the context, which is neutral in this case.
Mercurywoodrose (
talk) 04:27, 8 March 2014 (UTC)reply
Strong Keep this is a well-structured list of notable Jewish footballers, has high EV with lots of publications on the subject. It's not too broad either. Classic
WP:POINT. Actually, not too long ago there was something about celebrating Jewish football in the news; I don't remember what it was about exactly but they did speak about current and past Jewish footballers around the world. (If the name comes back to me I'll mention it, I think it was a museum in Philadelphia) --
CyberXRef☎ 07:01, 8 March 2014 (UTC)reply
Delete - In spite of the comments above, I still see no connection between being Jewish and playing football. Does it somehow affect their ability to play the game? –
PeeJay 15:18, 8 March 2014 (UTC)reply
Keep- My original feelings sided with nominator, however there is too much evidence to be ignored and this is clearly a notable topic.
BletheringScot 16:39, 8 March 2014 (UTC)reply
Keep - as article creator, as has been clearly shown here, the intersection of 'football' and 'Judaism' is a notable one.
GiantSnowman 15:20, 9 March 2014 (UTC)reply
Keep - plenty of evidence above to satisfy
WP:GNG.
Fenix down (
talk) 11:15, 11 March 2014 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.