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It seems to me that on October 28, 2005, an anonymous editor has copied "Henri, comte de Chambord" and duplicated the page as " Henry V of France" (with a link from the first page to the term "Henry V" which links in turn to "Henry V of France"). Can we agree to delete this second page? There should just be a redirect from "Henry V of France" to "Henri, comte de Chambord". Noel S McFerran 01:00, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
Should they be merged? -Alex, 12.220.157.93 05:51, 31 January 2006 (UTC).
I have removed the second pretension box. There is no system under which Chambord followed Louis Philippe as a claimant to the French throne. I have also changed the box to indicate a) that many people considered him to be the legitimist claimant from the time of his grandfather and uncle's abdications in 1830, rather than from the time of his uncle's death in 1844; and b) that many people who considered themselves legitimists in 1883 recognized the Comte de Paris as his successor. john k 16:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't Henry V's surname be de France since he did indeed become King of France and of Navarre? I didn't know it could go back to d'Artois. Charles 15:19, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
- IMHO, the name of the article should be Henry V of France. Why people are desconsidering the fact that he was proclaimed king? -- Tonyjeff 00:27, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
- The title of the page is based on popular and scholarly usage. The question was about a fact within the content of the article rather than the title of the article itself. Charles 06:35, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
- Still, I think the name of the article should be Henry V of France. -- Tonyjeff 18:59, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Please start a separate discussion on the matter then as this question does not involve the article title. Charles 19:06, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
On August 19, 2007, Wedineinheck added to this article the Category:Orléanist pretenders to the French throne. I removed it, but Wedineinheck then replaced it with the edit summary "No, really ! He was both for a time." What evidence can Wedineinheck provide that Henri was the Orléanist pretender? Please cite a specific book which refers to him as this. Noel S McFerran 13:18, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- This is explicitely stated in this article and in the one regarding "Philippe VII of France". In 1870-1871, and more or less until his death of 1883, Henri d'Artois was the pretender of both orleanists and legitimists, as Philippe d'Orléans agreed to make way for him. Wedineinheck ( talk) 21:53, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
No, he was never the Orléanist pretender. The (original) Orléanist claim ceasd to exist when the Comte de Paris recognized the Comte de Chambord as proper heir. After Chambord died, there was a new schism, with the ultra-legitimists (the "Blancs d'Espagne") going with the Carlists, while most legitimists and all Orléanists recognized the Comte de Paris as the legitimate pretender. This group became known as "Orléanists," but they were distinct from the 1848-1873 Orléanists. The Comte de Paris's claim before 1873 was based on his status as heir under the 1830 charter. Since, in 1873, he recognized Chambord, and thus essentially repudiated the 1830 Charter, there was no Orléanist candidate, in that sense, thereafter. After 1883, the Comte de Paris's claim was different - now he was the legitimist heir on the condition that the terms of the Treaty of Utrecht, barring the descendants of Philip V of Spain, was binding, while the Conde de Molina was claimant based on the notion that no treaty could bar the legitimate senior descendant of Hugh Capet from the French throne. It makes no sense to call Chambord the Orléanist pretender. john k ( talk) 07:43, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
- I concur that the fact that the Orleanist pretender "retired" and recognized Chambord's rights, doesn't make Chambord the Orleanist pretender. Noel S McFerran ( talk) 14:09, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Historians (to my recollection) don't recognize Henry's reign. GoodDay ( talk) 01:28, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
- Did he not 'reign' between the deposition of Charles X & and the Dauphin and the proclamation of Louis-Philippe? Michael Sanders 01:35, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Not according to the French Parliament of that time, nor historians since. According to them, Charles X's immediate successor is Louis Phillipe. GoodDay ( talk) 01:41, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
- It is arguable that he was King as Henri V after Charles X and the Dauphin's abdication and before the proclamation of Louis Philippe. He was never, however, officially recognized as such. john k ( talk) 07:38, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
The reason this article's proposed movement to Henry V of France was rejected, is the same reason these 'King of France' edits should be removed. Henry was never King, never reigned. PS- identical edits have been made to the Louis (Henry's uncle) article, claiming he was also King of France. GoodDay ( talk) 16:31, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Excuse me that rejection of page movement was at the Louis-Antoine article, where editors there rejecting moving to Louis XIX and Henry V. GoodDay ( talk) 16:44, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
From Philip Mansel's book, Paris between Empires, 1814-1852 (page 261), " On 2 August, Charles X and the Dauphin abdicated in favour of the King's grandson, the Duc de Bordeaux." From T.E.B. Howarth's book,The Life of Louis-Philippe, Citizen King (page 153), "...[Charles X] instructed Louis-Philippe to proclaim Henry V." Based on the Charter of 1814, it would seem that only the king could decide upon his successor. It was not a prerogative of either the House of Peers or House of Deputies. Only later did events get out of hand due to the duplicity of Louis-Philippe. Just because an insurrectionary wave overcomes an elected assembly does not necessarily means that it can over-ride previously established tradition and law and decide upon a new leader outside the normal realm of succession. Due to the wording of the abdication document signed by Charles X and his son, it would appear that the Duc de Bordeaux was indeed the de jure ruler of France starting on August 2, regardless of what the two legislative houses wanted. As far as the Duc d'Angoulême goes, based on the Charter of 1814, for the twenty minutes between the signature of his father to the abdication document and his own, he too appears to have been the de jure ruler of France. This is a sticky situation to define because to deny kingly status to the Ducs d'Angoulême and Bordeaux requires a retrospective validation of illegal acts by the House of Peers and House of Deputies encouraged by Louis-Philippe. It revives an age old question, should history be written to only suit the desires of the victors? BoBo ( talk) 22:04, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
- We can't ignore the fact, that Historian and Encyclopdeia have declare Louis & Henry as not being Kings of France. To have them as such, would also call for the inclusion of
Edward III of England to
George III of the United Kingdom aswell, since they've claimed the title King of France. We should go along with historians and not re-write history - There was no 'King Louis XIX of France', 'King Henry V of France', 'King Philip VII of the French', Emperor Napolean II of the French. These people didn't reign.
GoodDay (
talk) 22:16, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
- Your response seems rather stark and not nuanced at all. I am not suggesting that either the Duc de Reichstadt or Duc de Bordeaux should be considered as reigning monarchs for the remainder of their lives. Rather, each should be considered rulers de jure from the time of the abdication of their predecessors to the actual installation of the successors condoned by the actual powers that be. Claims mean nothing. De jure leadership during the actual transition between the legal systems of two different regimes does. BoBo ( talk) 22:34, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
- These men didn't 'reign' as Kings of France, thus the reason their articles weren't moved to Louis XIX of France and Henry V of France, please reconsider your 'January 2007' edits. If we follow your examples -
Juan Carlos I of Spain's reign would be 1977- present, his
father would be King of Spain 1941-77, and his father
Alfonso XIII of Spain, 1886-1941.
GoodDay (
talk) 22:40, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
- You continue to misunderstand my point. Only royals who accede to a throne by the laws in place in their country at the time of their accession should be considered de jure rulers of that country until the legally recognized installation of a different regime. The Count of Barcelona should not be considered a de jure king of Spain because his succession is based upon the family rules of only one branch of Spanish Bourbons and not the actual laws in place in Spain at the time of the death of his father. To expand on my point, if Juan Carlos I should abdicate in favor of his son, and twenty minutes later a new Spanish republic is declared by forces actually in control of the country, then his son should be considered the de jure ruler of Spain during the twenty minute transition between the two regimes. His son, however, should not be considered the de jure ruler of Spain until his own death. BoBo ( talk) 23:03, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
- If this were all as simple as automatic succession then yes Lous & Henry were Kings of France. But, France has chosen to (retroactively, if you will) consider them not Kings; someday 'maybe' the Republic will reconsider, until then let's stick with what the historians and encylopedias say.
GoodDay (
talk) 23:08, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
- I worry that your approach in essence justifies revisionist history by victorious governments. One shouldn't just give into the "party line" because it is easier and less complicated to do so. I think some have already tried that in Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia. Look at the supression of information such concessions can make. BoBo ( talk) 23:29, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
- Seeing as we're not gonna agree, I'll let others have a chance to discuss this topic with you. All we're doing is stalmating. GoodDay ( talk) 23:40, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I take Bobo's point (hello, by the way! First time on this page) that if the constitutional law of a state is based on automatic succession, then there is a line of succession until such a time as that law isbolished by a new regime. Thus, many hold that the brother of Tsar Nicholas II was Michael II after his abdication until Michael Romanov refused the throne.So on those grounds, the Comte de Chambord could be styled Henri V. But I also see that few sources style him such. Historical persons are styled by common opinion. That may seem subjective. But we need to accept some standard, otherwise we have to consider every claim. I mean, what if someone presents the opinion that Henri could not have been king because of the claims of the son of Napoleon III?-- Gazzster ( talk) 00:19, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
- Gazzster, in my scheme, the problem you suggest is no problem at all for two reasons. First, the Duc de Bordeaux was the de jure king only from the time of his lawful succession until the new government proclaimed Louis-Philippe to be the King of the French. Because of this, he was not the legal de jure king of France at the time of Napoleon III. Second, Napoleon was no longer the legal emperor at the time of his death, therefore his son could not legally succeed him. The laws of the Third French Republic prevented that. Complicated? Yes, but accurate. BoBo ( talk) 00:31, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
- I still think the 'King of France' succession boxes & infoboxes should be removed from the 'two' disputed articles & the opening line (atleast) being changed to some consider him King of France.... GoodDay ( talk) 01:37, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
I have run a Google search. The name Henri V occurs as a major entry once-here, in the English Wikipedia. The French site does not say he was King of France, but only styled so by legitimists. The Count de Chambord was not proclaimed King by the French people and so they do not regard him as such. Standard lists of monarchs do not include an Henri V, just as lists of Russian monarchs do not include a Michael II. Adding his name as the edits in question have done is original. -- Gazzster ( talk) 13:22, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
- Gazzster, there also was no King Louis-Philippe I of France, but he appears in Wikipedia in many places. Louis-Philippe was never the King of France, rather he was specifically referred to as the King of the French in the 1830 constitution. My point is that modern usage is fluid and does not always accurately represent the debates current to specific people or events in the past. BoBo ( talk) 23:51, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
You're missing the point, I'm afraid. Whether Louis-Philippe was 'King of the French' or 'King of France', he is a monarch of France in a line of succession from Louis XVI (and b4 of course) to Napoleon III. My point is that Harry boy is not generally recognised as a true monarch of France. You can personally claim that he was- that's fine. But for Wiki to publish it as a fact is original research. How about noting underneath his (and Louis XIX's) entry something like 'legitimists claim he was technically King for {however long} but he is not generally included in lists of French monarchs'?-- Gazzster ( talk) 00:07, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
- In general, I do not want to belabor this point. I would not be opposed to the removal of the "king" templates on the right of the Angoulême and Chambord articles with the addition of the following phraseology in the introductions:
- For the Duc d'Angoulême:
- "Louis-Antoine d'Artois [1], Dauphin of France and Duke of Angoulême ( de jure King of France and Navarre for twenty minutes in 1830 and Legitimist Pretender to the throne from 1836 to 1844) (August 6, 1775 – June 3, 1844) was the eldest son..."
- For the Comte de Chambord:
- "Henri Charles Ferdinand Marie Dieudonné d'Artois, comte de Chambord – (September 29, 1820 – August 24, 1883) was the de jure King of France and Navarre from 2 to 9 August 1830 according to the Charter of 1814 and afterwards the Legitimist Pretender to the throne of France from 1844 to 1883." BoBo ( talk) 02:34, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
That's cool with me, as long as you reference that claim.-- Gazzster ( talk) 03:01, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
- Remove the 'King of France' infoboxes & succession boxes aswell. GoodDay ( talk) 15:21, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
I think BoBo has a reasonable case to be made - although I'll add that Chambord was arguably the legitimist pretender between 1830 and 1844, as well, and was supported as such by many legitimists, although he himself always recognized his grandfather and uncle. I do think that they shouldn't be in succession boxes or infoboxes. john k ( talk) 21:53, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
- I think we should consider that the Legitimist themselves don't recognize Louis & Henry as Kings in 1830. GoodDay ( talk) 21:59, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
- I'm concerned that by having it edited as Louis & Henry reigned, is rather one-sided (along with letting them have a 'monarch info box' & 'succession box'). We need something to point out that their Kingly status is historically questionable. GoodDay ( talk) 22:26, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
The logic applied in making these two kings is faulty at least in the case of "Henry V" ... if he succeeded as king in 1830, his "de jure reign" does not suddenly stop with the proclamation of Louis Philippe, who under the laws of the kingdom can only be considered an usurper. If we followed the "de jure" line, Henry would become King in 1830 and remain so until his death. Str1977 (talk) 10:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- Henri was king by inheritance, whether this was accepted by the parliament or later historians is not the point. Under French law he was king. He was de jure king, this is not "disputedly" [which incidentally is not a real word, I believe]. Royalcourtier ( talk) 23:33, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
I've removed the category for heir apparents who never ascended to the throne. He was never heir apparent. During Charles X's reign, the King's elder son, Louis, Duke of Angoulême, was heir-apparent. The Duc de Bordeaux wasn't even his heir apparent - he could have been displaced had Angoulême had any sons of his own. john k ( talk) 16:24, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
The title of Duke outranks Comte (Count) shouldn't the title be Henri, Duc de Bordeaux.- Crois 129 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.167.234.162 ( talk) 08:13, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Nevertheless he is known to history as the comte de Chambord, because he actually held Chambord and preferred that title. Timrollpickering ( talk) 11:16, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Seeing as the article subjects 'title' was changed to Count of Chamboard, shouldn't the name be anglonized too (from Henri to Henry)? GoodDay ( talk) 21:24, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
- Done. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:14, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Why is not it required that Wikipedians who photograph paintings in museums give the name of the artist who painted the work & the date. The picture in this article with the caption "Henri as a child" leaves us in the dark as to when the painting was done: was it pre- or post-abdication of Charles X? Because, if post abdication, then "Henri as a child" should be changed to "young Henri V". I believe this particular painting depicts the scene of Charles X, the day of his abdication (2 August 1830), presenting the new king Henri V to the royal troops bivouacked at Rambouillet. It is a shame that wiki-photographers are not asked to identify the art work used to illustrate articles in Wikipedia. -- Frania W. ( talk) 15:54, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
- The painting should be identified; that's verifiability. But we should not adopt the legitimist point of view. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:43, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- "Adopt the legitimist point of view"?
- When Charles X & his son abdicated in favour of Henri, duc de Bordeaux, the young child immediately became king of France, and that's not a legitimist point of view, that's what it was, that was the law of the kingdom, if you prefer: one king dies or abdicates, the one next in line steps upon the throne.
- At the same time, and in two different instances, (1) by the abdicating king of France, and (2) by the Chamber of Deputies, the Duke of Orléans was named Lieutenant général du royaume, which means that the kingdom of France was not abolished and, if the kingdom of France was not abolished & existed as such for the few days before Louis Philippe let himself be proclaimed King of the French, then the young Henri, duc de Bordeaux was king of France under the name of Henri V. That's not "the legitimist point of view" but 'the plain historical fact".
- --
Frania W. (
talk) 23:32, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- Precisely. That those assertions are the case is the legitimist point of view. (Find an Orleanist or a Republican who agrees.)
Septentrionalis
PMAnderson 00:44, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- When Charles X abdicated, Louis Philippe was not king yet and, legitimist point of view or not, the young Henri was the new king of France. The painting added in the article depicts the young king Henri V a few minutes after the abdication of his grandfather, reviewing the troops down at the parterre in front of the castle of Rambouillet.
- Whether Orléanists or Republicans liked the idea, the young boy was king of France for a few days, and most French historians see in Louis Philippe un usurpateur. He himself, as did his sister & his wife, feared that it would be the way the French people would see him. In other words, even to the French people of today, Henri was a young king who was dispossessed of his crown thanks to the dirty tricks of his Orléans cousin.
- Another detail in the infobox, under his picture, it reads:
- King of France (disputed)
- it should be:
- King of France (not proclaimed)
- Now, if you consider Henri V to have been a king of France only for the legitimists, what do you propose? Are you going to delete the "Henry V" title at the top of infobox? Do you intend to find him a politically correct "wiki title" ?
- -- Frania W. ( talk) 01:44, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- Precisely. That those assertions are the case is the legitimist point of view. (Find an Orleanist or a Republican who agrees.)
Septentrionalis
PMAnderson 00:44, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Out of curiosity, why is the name on the title "Henry," when the proper spelling of the name is "Henri?" I see no reason to turn a French noble's name into its English counterpart, especially when the rest of the article uses the French version of the name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.220.28.88 ( talk) 21:57, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- I've moved this post to its proper chronological position. In future, please post all new topics at the BOTTOM of the page. It seems this question has been addressed by later posts, see below. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 10:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
"Henry, Count of Chambord" is ridiculous. Unless he is being called "Henry V", which is quite rare, I've never seen any form used but "Henri". Even Case's translation of Bertier de Sauvigny's The Bourbon Restoration, which translates all titles, still calls him Henri (using "Duke of Bordeaux", of course). And "Comte de Chambord" is, so far as I can tell, much more common than "Count of Chambord". Theodore Zeldin's France 1848-1945: Politics and Anger, for instance, refers to him as Henri, comte de Chambord. So does Gordon Wright's France in Modern Times, a standard textbook. So also H.A.C. Collingham's The July Monarchy. That more or less exhausts the books I have at home on the matter, but I'm sure I can assemble more examples of the matter if called upon. Pmanderson claims to support "using the form that English uses," but in practice he seems to frequently prefer anglicized forms which are not used by standard historical works in English. This is a pretty clear-cut case where the French form is the principal one used. john k ( talk) 16:53, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, neither is common; discussion of the pretenders to the French throne was much more common before the First World War than it is now.
Septentrionalis
PMAnderson 16:48, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
- There are two issues here:
- Henri or Henry, which GoodDay suggested above; since we use Henry I, Duke of Guise, it seems only sensible, but I am not intense about it.
- Count of or comte de. I object strongly to making a uniform rule of Gallicization here: duc de Burgundy is detestable, duc de Bourgogne is obfuscation, and uniformity in that direction must lead to one or the other. In this instance NCMH compromises by capitalizing Comte, but is this desirable? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:51, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
- There are two issues here:
If I may necro-post, WP:USEENGLISH is taken much more seriously these days than it was in 2010; if this were an RM discussion today, there's about a 99% change it would opt for the plain English version. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 00:53, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
Why was article move from Henri, comte de Chambord to Henry, Count of Chambord done arbitrarily? Comment of 25 May 2010 by john k demonstrates that a discussion is/was/would have been necessary.
-- Frania W. ( talk) 17:34, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
- If anyone moved without discussion, it was John Kenney; I've discussed my restoration of the long-standing English Count as much as he has his innovation. Please get your facts straight. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:32, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
Getting the facts straight: one of the most recent of several moves was done in October 2009, with no discussion, and not by John Kenney. -- Frania W. ( talk) 20:54, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
- I do confirm that the correct name is Henri in French (Henry does not exist in French!). I don't know the policy here on :en (to anglonize or not), but this Henry looks strange to people (like me) with French as mother tongue...
Zetud (
talk) 18:59, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
- And I would strongly oppose its use on fr.wikipedia.org; but English is spoken here.
Septentrionalis
PMAnderson 19:05, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
- That doesn't mean that we arbitrarily translated people's names. For example Nicolas Sarkozy isn't going to be moved to "Nicholas Sarkozy". The man's name was Henri, not Henry. 75.76.213.106 ( talk) 07:44, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- And I would strongly oppose its use on fr.wikipedia.org; but English is spoken here.
Septentrionalis
PMAnderson 19:05, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
- I do confirm that the correct name is Henri in French (Henry does not exist in French!). I don't know the policy here on :en (to anglonize or not), but this Henry looks strange to people (like me) with French as mother tongue...
Zetud (
talk) 18:59, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: moved to Henri, Count of Chambord. Favonian ( talk) 13:04, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
Henry, Count of Chambord → Henri, Count of Chambord or Henri, comte de Chambord — Most sources call him Henri. The results of previous undiscussed moves have cause some conflicts as one can see above this, so lets vote on this issue.-- Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy ( talk) 04:20, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- Support.
Britannica calls him Henri Dieudonné d’Artois, count de Chambord. A translated given name is the prerogative of a monarch, i.e.
Henry IV
or Charles IX.P.S. Columbia Encyclopedia calls him Chambord, Henri Charles Ferdinand Marie Dieudonné Comte De. Back when people cared about pretenders, he was just "Count of Chambord," so this issue did not arise. Kauffner ( talk) 02:56, 5 February 2012 (UTC) - Support -- The answer is in the first word of the lead. I do not however accept Kauffner's reason and Charles IX would be much the same in French. Peterkingiron ( talk) 20:19, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Just 2 supports & for that matter, just 2 participants. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for the page move, which was carried out. GoodDay ( talk) 19:44, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
As of 1883, virtually all French monarchists, whether originally of a Legitimist or Orléanist stripe, recognized the Comte de Paris as the legitimate monarchical claimant and heir to the comte Chambord. Only a tiny minority rejected the House of Orléans and preferred the Carlist pretender. It seems absurd to only list the latter as Chambord's "successor" as pretender. Surely we should, at the very least, also be directing people to the claimant who actually had a significant number of supporters and who became the actual claimant to the French monarchical tradition, rather than some farcical Spaniard recognized by only the most reactionary of the reactionary. That, in the 20th century, a new "Legitimist" movement sprang up among those dissatisfied with the then-Orléanist claimant doesn't mean we should read that history backwards and pretend as though the Count of Montizon's claim was anything but a curiosity. john k ( talk) 04:27, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
If Louis XVII is listed as Louis XVII, then of course Henri V should be listed as Henri V as well.
Otherwise there is no consistency. Henri V did not reign, but neither did Louis XVII. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.156.126.230 ( talk) 19:09, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
Please see
Talk:Henry III of France#Why the anglicized "Henry"?
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 07:09, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
I think my edits today may have been misunderstood. I do not have any objection to, nor deliberately edit out, titles of pretence borne by claimants and their family members. There may be a disagreement, however, about the relevant custom around use of those titles: whereas it is appropriate and usual to refer to the younger brother of a pretender as, for example, "Prince John of X, Duke of Y", it is usual to style the actual claimant or Head of House as "Edward, Count of Z", omitting the princely prefix. Examples: 1. Prince Eudes, Duke of Angoulême vs. Jean, Count of Paris 2. Prince Aimone, Duke of Apulia vs. Vittorio Emanuele, Prince of Naples. FactStraight ( talk) 06:37, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
It is considered likely by historians that Henri did not want to return as monarch, and the flag business was just an excuse so he could continue his easy and luxurious life in exile. ( 86.140.123.117 ( talk) 15:43, 18 March 2020 (UTC))
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