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Are these still in use, I remember when I was in the Cadets we only practised on the L98 A1 and then the A2 ( Fdsdh1 ( talk) 18:45, 15 November 2012 (UTC))
The picture is of a 3rd Batallion, the DZ flash is clearly green and not blue, however I don't know on what operation the photo was taken so am loathe to edit it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.156.80.198 ( talk) 22:17, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
"Both designs were manufactured in Britain by Sterling Armaments Company alongside their similar but improved SAR-87."
Is there a citation to show evidence that the XL64 prototypes were manufactured at the Sterling Armaments Company?? I have never seen any evidence to suggest that Sterling had a direct role in the SA80's design or manufacture. Strangways ( talk) 22:44, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Since there were no objections and the comment was uncited, I have removed the statement that the prototypes were manufactured at Sterling. Strangways ( talk) 20:45, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
"Weight remains the L85A2's most cited drawback. As with the L85A1, with most of the weight near the back, a large metal counterbalance in the foregrip was required." - I saw this on the main page, does anyone know who wrote it, because having used the weapon for years (and done all the associated stripping, cleaning and reassembling) I am still to come across this large metal counterbalance. Horatio Hornblower Senior 12:10, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I have a question about the SA80. I believe a portion of this article described the sale of some SA80s by either Zimbabwe or Mozambique to private bidders. The MoD were not pleased by this, as part of the terms of sale were that the weapons would not be sold on. Can anyone verify this, or was is removed because it was untrue? anon.
I thought the SA80 was given away by the british government as 'aid'. certainly no one in their right mind would actually choose buy this wretched weapon.
Not really, the L85A2 is supposedly the most reliable service rifle in the world. I can understand with the A1, but unless you state 'A1' you are just insulting the whole group, including one of the best rifles in the world... 213.78.183.91 ( talk) 15:07, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
The SA80A2 is, but the weight is still out of balance though.
Why was the SA80 put out of production in 1994?, Was it due to the soldiers complaints?
User:Jetwave Dave 02:35, 8/07/07
It is a piece of crap
Actually, it is a decent performer, comparable with all major assault rifles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.148.202.220 ( talk) 00:22, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Basically, because they made enough. There are still enough. Not needed to make any more. 86.16.153.191 ( talk) 00:05, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Safety catch as an issue of contention? I use the rifle regularly and there's not a damn thing wrong with teh location of the safety catch? All it takes is a tiny movement of the fingers to switch it, so I don't know where all this is coming from. The A2 is a bloody brilliant rifle.
I have used the A2 in many extereme/filthy climates and enviroments from the tropics, deserts and the British winter and have always found it to be very reliable and robust, it is a vast improvement over the A1 in this respect. I can count on one hand the amount of stoppages I have had with this weapon despite infrequent cleaning and heavy usage. I much prefer it over the M16A2 and M4 carbines I have recently used on an exercise in Florida, I routinly had stoppages with these systems and found them to be flimsy and not at all accurate in relation to the A2.
Never heard of a problem with the safety catch before. I found that it was in the right place and all of the catches were actually a little stiff more than anything! -- Pudduh 20:03, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't a lot of that history be under assault rifle or similar? - Khendon 15:22 Nov 5, 2002 (UTC)
Given the longer barrel, muzzle velocity really must be greater for the LSW. And I concur with Khendon on the assault rifle history part. - JidGom 23:14 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)
The LSW muzzle velocity is indeed greater - unfortunately I can no longer remember the actual figures. I have a feeling the cyclic rate might vary too, though I'm not sure.
I also wonder about some of the praise heaped upon the weapon here - although the SUSAT is indeed pretty good, I've not heard any particular reports of the SA80 being "widely regarded as the most powerful and accurate mass-production 5.56mm rifle." The claim that the Cadet GP's cocking handle extension makes it "the fastest action of any manual rifle" also seems pretty dubious for what is basically a bodge welded on the side to improve the ergonomics of a system never designed for manual operation. 137.205.31.222 02:50, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Well i will not talk about myself personaly to avoid bias, but all i have spoken to who have used the a1 and a2, confirm it is noticably more accurate than an m-16 c-7 and g-36. It has a bad reputation because the original was terrible. But the A-2 is outstanding. remember the royal marines replaced there sa-80's with c-7's until the sa-80 A-1 came out to a degree, and total went back when the a-2 came out. look up the uk navy news site, and search for an article called testing times for a new weapon. There is a testimony from the head of the royal marines there. as for the reliable sourse if you check the article sa-80 mistake or maligned it actualy has links in it to mod and other sources. there about as offical as you can get. also qouted on the army technologies website. in desert tests under matching conditions for all weapons, the a-2 got a pass rate of 85% the second best was the m-16 with 46%. rich tea man.(but yes the cadet gp rifle is very bad.) http://www.army.mod.uk/infantry/current_equipment/the_infantry_small_arms_in_the_section.htm
Why is the effective range of the SA80 stated as 400m, when the M16 page claims 500m? I'm sure that with the longer, heavier barrel, and optical sight, the SA80 is better at range than the M16. Perhaps this is from US/UK diffs in mil. definition of 'effective range'?
A single rifleman with an SA80 is defined by the British Army as 'effective' to 300m; although the SUSAT is adjustable to higher distances. A section of eight men is defined as being effective to 600m. Draw what conclusions you want. 82.1.172.70 21:53, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I've edited the effective range of the L85 and the L86LSW with data from the MOD. I would have thought that they would be our most reliable source of information on this?-- Wikipediatastic 15:38, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
With respect to the L22A1's effectiveness I would like to know how those conclusions were reached in regard to the performance of the 5.56 NATO round. For example the NATO SS109D round is more than twice as heavy as the P90's 31gr. Veritas Panther 02:10, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the part of the history section which states that the SA80 has its historical origins in the EM-2 rifle. This is not the case unless what was meant was the commonality of a bullpup arrangement. The mechanism and manufacture of the EM-2 are different to that of the SA80, in that it uses flap-locking rather than a lugged rotating bolt, has a sprung firing pin rather than a hammer, etc and was manufactured using more traditional techniques involving a lot of machining tather than the stamped pressings of the SA80.
I'm not sure that I'm entirely happy with my rewording of the first sentence though! Chris 12:21, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
The design maybe totally different but the design layout and concept are all derived from research done on the EM-2 and it is a part of the SA80's history. Koalorka ( talk) 04:32, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, agree with all of the above, but it is a widely held (if erroneous) opinion that the SA80 is based on the EM2, therefore it is appropriate and important to comment that, while the SA80 superficially resembles the EM2, it is not mechanically related to it. The political issues and unfinished business surrounding the dumping of the EM2 due to the US pressure on NATO to adopt the 7.62x51mm round were clearly a heavy influence on the emergence of the SA80 (though I cannot provide a written reference except for the now-defunct UK 'Handgunner' magazine test of the L85 in 1987 which commented that the new British rifle was going to be a bullpup no matter what due to the "ghost of the EM2" (or words to that effect). It also commented that the L85 was destined to be 'a winner in a one-horse race' and its adoption by the UK forces was going to assist it in RO's privatisation. The problem is I do not have a copy of the article. Perhaps someone here does. Strangways ( talk) 22:24, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
I think the SA80 is based of this rifle (L 64, also known as 4.85mm experimental) L64/65 http://www.joysf.com/files/attach/images/3081440/828/099/004/l64%20rifle.jpg ( Fdsdh1 ( talk) 18:28, 15 November 2012 (UTC))
A reliable source is needed for the March 2005 L85A2/M16/M4/AK47/AN94 study. I've not found anything on Google. -- AndrewKerr 23:39, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- The results were published in a restricted publication. -- anonymous
If that's the case then they shouldn't be mentioned here, because wikipedia demands verifiability -- Khendon 06:26, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pid=1309296#p1309296
Bf2 came out March 2005. The topic of the thread was the best assault gun. Jemme101 had posted a bit of text from wikipedia to prove a point in the thread. Right before this a anon had reposted the bit of text about the none existent test.All the weapons that are part of this none existent test are part of the game.-- M8v2 23:00, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I changed the template to what I thought was the standard template for firearms, but if you dont like that, OK. Mainly because the image looks awkward off center and lacking a caption, the other way looked better, but do what you want.
Was this used by Zimbabwe and Jamaica? I know that Jamaica uses Colt weapons systems, but I think Zimbabwe uses Russian (and possibly Chinese) rifles.
I had no idea about that one, as far as i knew the only people using the bullpup SA80 was the british.
Strange, the info said that Jamaica and Zimbabwe use them.
I don't think there's anything strange about former British colonies, Jamaica and Zimbabwe, using British standard firearms. I'm only surprised more ex-colonies didn't use them.
---
The Romanian Navy got some A1's when they purchased some ships
---
I'm fairly certain one of the Caribbean states was gifted L85s for its defence force, it may well have been Jamaica. DG 8-4-2006
Mozambique were also provided with a quantity of A1s by the Uk government.
Jamaica has been using them since 1992 so it says on thier website.
User:Jetwave Dave 02:30AM, 8/7/07
Currently there is no mention in the Users section about those organisations having used the SA80. Will someone add them? -- Dreddmoto ( talk) 03:22, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
I've noticed that the article, unless I missed something, fails to clearly mention the manufacturer of the SA80 series. (Unless it's actually made by the British government?) -- anon
How's that? -- Khendon 15:14, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Manufactured by Royal Ordnance (Now part of BAE Land Systems) // Upgrade of original rifles to A2 performed by H&K 82.1.172.70
I don't know if it's worth mentioning as part of the above that H&K was also part of BAE at the time of the rework, though it's an independent company again now. DG 8-4-2006
HK is still in fact a subordinate of BAE Land Systems. 25 07 09 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Project 1409 ( talk • contribs) 20:16, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
The weapon was made by RO Defence but the HK symbol appears on most of todays rifle due to the fact of their rebuilding in Germany. King Konger
Its still the original A1 frame but with H&K parts installed into them making it the A2. The rifle hasnt been in production since 1994.
User:Jetwave Dave 02:33, 8/7/07
It was developed at RO Defence Enfield, but production was done at RO Defence Birmingham after Enfields closure, i believe. ( 82.34.146.59 ( talk) 13:17, 6 January 2008 (UTC)) Didn't Argentina carry the SA80 in a fully automatic version? PFC USMC "Anarchy" —Preceding unsigned comment added by AnarchyElf ( talk • contribs) 04:30, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
RO Nottingham, not Birmingham. 80.42.156.47 ( talk) 23:20, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
"Didn't Argentina carry the SA80 in a fully automatic version?"
Doubt it. In the early 80s we were at war with argentina, so its unlikely we would willingly sell them SA80s, perhaps they were captured during the falklands war? (i know a number were)
86.16.153.191 ( talk) 23:50, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
The SA80 did not enter service until 5 years after the Falklands War. Strangways ( talk) 02:44, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
During the Falklands the Argentinians used the FN FAL which was automatic, we used the SLR which was a semiautomatic version of the FAL,our version was superior. the SLR was very long, didn't fire automatic (otherwise it would be uncontrollable) and the 7.62 NATO was a heavy round, which was why it got replaced with the SA80 ( Fdsdh1 ( talk) 18:33, 15 November 2012 (UTC))
I would have thought a possibly better occurrence of the L85 in film is 'Dog Soldiers' (2002), where the patrol is initially armed with L85s with the blank firing adaptor, though they rapidly swap to MP5s, G3s and shotguns with live ammo when they find the massacred SF team. DG 8-4-2006
I've never come across this restriction. It sounds like the kind of myth which abounds in the Cadets in particular, and in any case if the zeroing was that likely to change then it would be a problem in normal use in the field even without carrying the rifle by the carrying handle. Logically the problem would apply to the SUSAT and CWS as well, particularly the latter due to its weight. Running with a CWS attached would subject the sight mounting to far higher instantaneous loads than walking about non-tactically with the rifle suspended from the sight. I'm going to remove this phrase; the originator is welcome to reinsert it provided they can provide a reasonable justification here. PeteVerdon 13:39, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I remember reading the small tounge in cheek magazine that was distributed in the Army when I was a kid which scolded you for carrying the rifle by the SOUSAT. Haven't heard anything about carrying it by the handle. The closest I've heard is in the OTC where it was frowned upon because "you looked like a tramp or a ned, possibly both" by carrying it by the handle.-- Pudduh 20:01, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Technically, The L85A1/A2 is a Carbine Rifle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Project 1409 ( talk • contribs) 20:20, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
I used to be in the cadets and I remember having to carry two up at a time to the firing position on the range... by their carry handles ( Fdsdh1 ( talk) 04:15, 5 December 2012 (UTC))
It very definitely IS a carrying handle, as the manual lists it as such. However, I can't think of a source for this that isn't restricted which will make verification a bit difficult. I did think that there might be officially produced posters with the parts listed, unfortunately the only one I could find on Google was just a tiny bit too small to read the writing! Jellyfish dave ( talk) 10:41, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
I believe I originally wrote this (a couple of years ago) as "all removable internal parts are interchangeable" or words to that effect. Would anybody care to remind me which removable internal parts are *not* interchangeable between the LSW and the Rifle? PeteVerdon 13:51, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
-- I have to admit, i dont know exactly which parts it is, but i do know that things like the cyclic rate on the LSW is different to the SA80 due to very slightly different internal parts. 80% interchangeability i believe. Obviously things like the handguard/barrel/bipod/rear pistol grip/butt plate, arent interchangeable 78.144.36.222 ( talk) 19:32, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
As no-one can say what is different about the internal parts, this should be removed. Cyclic rate may differ due to gas port pressure differences caused by different barrel length, but this is not sufficient to determine internal parts are modified. Strangways ( talk) 14:14, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
The difference is in the recoil rod spring and piston springs. The rest of the internals are interchangeable. RLS 84 ( talk) 22:11, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
To clarify further, the springs were colour coded, red for the rifle and white for the LSW. The bolt, carrier, piston, recoil rod and other internal parts were completely interchangeable.
I am a former British Army armourer, years of experience working on them. RLS 84 ( talk) 22:31, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/SA80.htm
a good article and a few links to official mod odcumentaion. and mentions the test.
At the OTC, we mainly used the A1 version. One of the things we were taught during rifle drill was "tap forward assist" a very scientific term for "bashing the cocking handle forward a couple of times to make sure it goes all the way forward." This was explained as because the spring was quite weak, the cocking handle doesn't go forward sometimes. Should this be added if it is true?-- Pudduh 20:08, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
In lewis page's book he says that the "tap forward assist" was added to the drills instead of actually fixing the weapons. Corustar 13:03, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I am in the Light Infantry, and we are still taught to forward assist with the A2s, indeed it is part of our stoppage drills. I have been told that this was originaly brought in with the A1s because of the weakness of their springs, I am not sure why it is still taught with the A2 as the spring is now a lot stronger than the ones in the A1.
Having recently used the A2s on ex in Germany, I can say that the forward assist is there to make sure that the bolt really locks forward with the chambre. I believe that it is not officially attributed to weak recoil rod springs, but simply as a precautionary measure. The IA drill for all the SA80 weapons should be to tap the cocking handle forwards, as in the L85, L86 and L98A1 the bolt may not be all the way forwards. Tapping makes sure the bolt is firmly locked forwards. I have found once on exercise that the forward assist during the Make Ready saved me an un-neccessery stoppage. It also came into play on the DCCT range, where the operator decided to give me a stoppage! -anon
Not actually true, a forward assist on the L98 is specifically prohibited, due to the way the rifle is cocked it leads a lot of cadets to slam the cocking handle forward with the palm of their hand. This can be extremely dangerous if the round has mis fed. This is less of a problem under the "tap" the left and would give an L85/6. Also, due to the size of the cocking handle, the momentum is allmost allways enough to load a round correctly, assuming the weapon is well oiled.
I've removed the following claim from the main page,
“ | ...especially on ATC weapons, which tend to see a higher level of use that ACF weapons. | ” |
Without some kind of credible citation it just doesn't stand up. Army Cadets use the Cadet GP as a regular part of their generic "soldier" like training, including a large amount of use in the field and the firing of large amounts of blank ammunition, away from the close supervision of range staff. I believe there is a ban on blank ammunition in the ATC and the rifles are used strictly for range practices, skill-at-arms "dry" training and weapon handling tests. This would suggest the ACF rifles are more likely to incur damage through excessive use (unless, of course, the ATC don't look after theirs properly). As a former ATC cadet who has subsequently assisted in ACF training I have no bias one way or the other, but do have some insight. Yorkshire Phoenix 15:37, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
We could do with a picture of each of the 4 different types of SA80 currently in service 195.137.109.177 13:47, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Can the A2 be fired left handed? I think its implied but not actually stated. this seems important Askin 12:17, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Few armies train their soldiers in left handed shooting these days anyway; even lefties are tought to fire right handed. A poster on TankNet mentioned that the US Army certainly doesen't and the M16 can be fired left handed.
I guess in theory one could be turned on its side. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.27.19.43 ( talk) 00:18, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
When the SA80 was first introduced it was quickly nicknamed the 'unisex rifle', presumably because the adoption of a smaller calibre lightweight bullpip rifle co-incided with frontline female soldiers. No mention of this in the article. Also because soldiers in general saw the SLR as a superior weapon a lot of effort went into convincing soldiers that flat shooting small calibre guns were more effective on the battlefield, including a demonstration of shooting a brick wall 3 times with the SA80 and once with the SLR, and also a discussions about not having to kill a man in modern warfare. etc.
(I apologise for this edit, but I'm not sure how to make my protest known in another way)
I use the SA-80 regularly and what was written above about the criticism of the safety catch was (in my opinion) clearly written by someone who has never held, let alone fired, the weapon. Unless you intend to fire the weapon your finger should not be on the trigger and instead should rest in its natural extended position which leaves it (guess where) right over the safety. A tap of the safety makes the weapon ready to fire and from that action to having your finger on the trigger takes under a tenth of a second. I once again apologise, but must fiercely protest the accuracy of what I have read above. The SA80-A2 is a fine weapon and I've never experienced a problem with it, despite submerging it, coating it in mud, firing in sub zero temperatures and in desert conditions.
I have removed the statement:
"However, because the cocking handle is connected to the rod by a pin, it occasionally breaks[citation needed]. Another idiosyncrasy of the GP rifle is that adding an extra mechanism complicates the maintenance of the rifle, and it is possible to detach the rod from the bolt carrier in such a manner that it is only partly functional."
It is indeed possable to do this... however, it is also possable to put the weapon together without the bolt in it. The fact this can happen is irrelivent. Also, the cocking handle dosent comlicate maintainance at all. Gas parts can take upwards of an hour to clean after extended firing, whereas the cocking handle and runner, takes perhaps 30 seconds with a combat jacket and a pot of oil.
Please discuss if you think it has been removed unfairly. Teta 19:59, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I removed the quotation "the L98A1 is known as an accurate and "fun to use" rifle among cadets." because this is not true, the accuracy isn't brilliant and the only reason it is called "fun" is because its normaly all cadets get to use Fwed66 14:40, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Actually, considering the tight groupings we achieve, in my personal ecperience the Cadet GP is a highly accurate weapon.
Doesn't the British Army accept weapons into the armed forces with the A1 suffix in their initial set up? The start uses A1 for the L22 and other derivatives but just lists L85 and L86 for the IW and LSW weapons (And this continues later down, that it was accepted into service as the L85) Narson 21:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the criticisms and fallout from them is an important part of the historical record for the SA80 series. That being said, I think it needs to be added in a functional and objective manner that notes the importance of it without being just someone's personal rant and anecdotes. Citing from the news stories and official documentation would be the best way. -- Thatguy96 ( talk) 01:43, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Just take a look at the two gas systems and you'll know it's an AR-18. The AR-18 is actually currently the most copied gas system of operation in use in the G36, CIS weapons, Japan's Howa rifle, Beretta AR 70/90 etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Koalorka ( talk • contribs) 07:17, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Side by side comparison of a disassembled SA80 and AR-18 makes it blindingly obvious that the SA80 is very closely based on the AR-18. I defy anyone with one specimen of each weapon disassembled in front of them to insist that they are not almost identical internally. It is not just the 7-lug rotating bolt itself, which is similar to the Steyr AUG, M16, M4 and others, but the whole package. The AR18 does not have a removable gas plug with adverse setting (which the SA80 has), but the gas system is otherwise almost identical in both appearance and disassembly procedure. The bolt carrier, bolt, cam pin, firing pin retaining pin, detachable cocking handle, etc are all but identical. The only real change is minor - the SA80 has an extra (third) middle guide rod added to carry the return spring leaving the other 2 rods to guide the bolt group, where the AR-18 has only the 2 guide rods, but both have return springs on them. The guide rod assembly is otherwise almost the same. Disassembly of the whole weapon is very similar. Also, look where the change lever is. If you imagine that there is a pistol grip in its non-bullpup conventional place behind the magazine, the change lever falls exactly under your thumb - exactly where the safety/change lever is on a AR-18. Take an AR-18, remove the (folding) butt from it, move the pistol grip forward of the magazine, put a SUSAT on top and you have 90% of a SA80. Strangways ( talk) 14:36, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Further to my last, here is the 2002 Guardian article referred to above quoting James Edmiston, former owner of Sterling (licenced manufacturer of the AR18): 'Many of the key parts of the SA80 were copied from the US Armalite AR18, then made in Britain under licence by the Sterling gun factory in Dagenham, using the pressed-steel technique. The former owner of the factory, James Edmiston, says that his chief designer had seen an early prototype SA80 at an arms fair, stripped it down and discovered that bolt, bolt carrier, magazine, springs and firing pin had been taken from an AR18. "Not once did Enfield ever ask Sterling for information on the AR18," he says. "I know of at least one component that they 'copied' incorrectly which could well have made a difference to reliability." ' This is by James Meek from the Guardian Thurs 10 Oct 02 ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/oct/10/military.jamesmeek). There is a cross section of the AR18 on this page: http://www.weaponryonline.com/Reviews-req-showcontent-id-15.html which on examination might appear familiar to those who have seen the inside of the SA80. Strangways ( talk) 10:27, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
For comparison between the 2 different weapons, here are links to pages containing images of a disassembled SA80 and disassembled AR18 (actually the reintroduced AR180 semi-auto only variant).
AR18 article (scroll down to bottom of article to show images of disassembled weapon): http://www.cruffler.com/review-January-02.html
SA80 disassembled image: (click on 'enlarge image' on centre image entitled 'Disassembled SA80 rifle): http://www.armedforces-int.com/projects/firearms/l85a2-iw-sa80.asp
So now can we put something in the article saying the SA80 mechanism "has strong similarities to" and/or "is based on" the AR18? Strangways ( talk) 11:05, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
While on the subject of original research not backed up by published sources, something else I find interesting is that in the Wikipedia SA-80 article someone has deleted the AR-18 reference and inserted instead the Sterling SAR-87, even to the point of adding the words "...and its British SAR-87 derivative..." to the direct quote from the Guardian article in the references section, which are not present in the original article shown in the link. I would have thought that altering a direct quote from a cited source would be against Wikipedia guidelines. Not only that, but it is a red herring; the SAR-87 is also a AR-18 derivative, appeared after the SA-80, and is far more obscure than the AR-18, so I can't see the relevance. On the SAR-87 talk page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sterling_SAR-87 it is stated that: "The development of the SAR-87 seems to be so insignificant that it wasn't even included in the book "The Guns of Dagenham," which was co-authored by one of Sterling's last directors". So why the insistence on deleting the mention of AR-18 and replacing it with the (irrelevant and un-cited) SAR-87?? Strangways ( talk) 03:00, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
In the article Forward assist, it states that the SA80 more or less requires the usage of the forward assist, much more than other rifles, but that is not mentioned here. Is that article incorrect, or should this one be corrected to include that information? Parsecboy 20:30, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
As stated above, The L85A2 no longer requires a forward assist to allow for proper operation. This is due to the heavier springs and modification on the bolt locking splines. However, all soldiers are taught to carry out a forward assist during the 'make ready drill' and it is required as part of the Weapons Handling Test. This can be seen as allowing continuity of good practice from what has been learnt from the L85A1. Forward assisting confirms that the round is correctly seated and the bolt is locked fully, so why not do it? One day it may save your life. Lt REME British Army
I understood that the L22 carbines were made a few years after the L85 assault rifles were made. I know that the L22A2 was made with improvements due to the Iraq War, but was the L22A1 made with the SA80 family? Regards. Ominae ( talk) 06:13, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Eh, the AFV carbine is a tad difficult to name. When first produced and released (the same time as the rest of the SA80 family), it was simply known as the SA80-AFV, L85-AFV or SA80-carbine and amongst the personel who used it, the "Shorty". It was not called an 'L22' until the second generation of L85's became A1s - the SA80 AFV became the 'L22 AFV'. When the A2 mods came out the L22 became the 'L22A1 AFV'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.30.122.208 ( talk) 15:36, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
The UK's Ministry of Defence refer to the current L22 variant with Heckler Koch's 'SA80 A2' improvements, as RIFLE SA80, 5.56 MM L22A2 SA80K ( http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/36563/response/96971/attach/3/07%2006%202010%20162425%20003%20Matthew%20Davis.pdf). The span of EFRS reports in the above reference cover the 2005-2006 period when the Carbine was first adopted by British forces ( http://www.modoracle.com/news/SA80-At-21---A-Weapon-Comes-Of-Age_15793.html) - with all reports under the L22A2 'variant' header, with no EFRS entries or other references to a L22A1 version of the carbine from the types introduction in 2005, to today. Comparatively there are separate entries for the A1 and A2 versions of the L110 LMG, and A1 and A3 versions of the L115 LRR. Additionally, the receivers on L22s with 'A2' improvements are marked L22 A2 5.56 x 45, ( http://worldwide-defence.blogspot.com/2011/07/sa80k-l22-a2-carabine-rifle-british.html) rather than L22A1. - 95.144.220.220 ( talk) 16:15, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Can any users provide confirmation of the use of the pre-productions weapons during the Falklands Conflict. I am aware of the use of the M16 in various formats by UK forces at the time but have never seen nor heard any mention of either of the XL's use. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rockape73 ( talk • contribs) 17:45, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Not sure, M16A1's were used by the SAS though but dont know of the XL70.
Worth noting that when this gun was described the SAS refused to use them and instead ordered a shipment of M16s from the U.S Army? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.10.97.187 ( talk) 18:12, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
No, Not least because: It's not a 'Gun', they did not order M16s and the neither US Army nor a US Weapons supplier supplied the weapon system they chose in its stead. Blackshod ( talk) 20:09, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
The SAS understandably rejected tha original A1 version. They now use the A2 family like the rest of the army. Acorn897 ( talk) 21:30, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
They use the A2 when posing as standard soldiers, otherwise they use either the G36K or the HK417 or the C7/C8 rifle which is a Canadian version of the M16/M4 rifle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Viper D07 ( talk • contribs) 10:29, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
This is a variant of the L85A1/A2 rifle. The page should be merged. Koalorka ( talk) 04:57, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
No objections? Koalorka ( talk) 23:53, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
I object. I feel that the L-98 and the L-85 both warrant their own page. They are completly different. One is a fully-automatic, selective fire assault rifle meant for combat soldiers and the other is a manually operated training rifle meant for cadets. Physically, externally and internally, they are different. They fulfill different roles completly. By merging this article one would set a precedent. This precedent would say that anything that is a variant of anything, no matter how different they are physically or in what role they fill, they would technically, in the eyes of the precedent, be the same. You might as well merge articles about the male sex and the female sex. They are different physically, and they fulfill different roles in continuing the species, but, in the eyes of this precedent, they would be the same. SAWGunner89 ( talk) 04:34, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Just noticed the L98A2 has been split from the article. This is out of hand. These rifle are simple repeater versions with no divergent evolutionary history or significant modifications. Koalorka ( talk) 23:43, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Merge to L98A1: Ryan4314 ( talk) 08:02, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
(add) sorry I should elaborate, thought I was commenting on the new L98A2 page. The L98A2 page should be merged into the L98A1 page, and the L98A1 page is a keeper. Ryan4314 ( talk) 08:06, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Merge - both L98 pages to SA80 - they are all part of the SA80 system - the SA80 is not a particular weapon. Smidsy999 ( talk) 12:33, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
No merge. The rifles, although externally similar, are very different. As well as the differences mentioned above, it should also be noted that, unlike the SA80, the L98 has no flash supressor. Although the L98 article may need some cleanup, putting all the useful information in to the SA80 article would look ridiculous. The SA80 is a fully-automatic assault rifle, and the L98 is a single-shot cadet target rifle. I'm sure that lots of examples like this exist throughout Wikipedia. ANHL ( talk) 07:26, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Hello all,
Have seen pictures of the Royal Marines using what looks like a rail interface system and a forward hand grip on the SA80. See here for some pictures:
http://www.royalmarines.mod.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.15042#gallery
It seems to be a pretty standard fixture amongst the marines in the pictures above. I can't find any reference on the net to this new addition, but if someone can find anything about it and add a reference to the article, I think that it would make the article more comprehensive.
Spencer444 ( talk) 17:17, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
From 2007 an upgrade including the provision of ACOG sights, a new handguard incorporating Picatinny rails (with optional hand grip/bipod), [1] and a new vortex style flash hider is being introduced for use by selected units. [2]
My mistake, didn't see it there. Thank you for your blunt and borderline rude response. Spencer444 ( talk) 22:23, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
References
The Combat Support Equipment Integrated Project Team (CSE IPT), part to the Ministry of Defence United Kingdom, has a requirement for design, production and supply of a new Handguard and Downgrip for the SA80A2 Rifle to give improved grip capability. There is a possible requirement for up to quantity 8,000 of each item for Urgent Operational Requirements. There is a further possible requirement for up to quantity 15,000 to replace in service equipment.
This technology is here now! So if you see strange looking SA80s being carried by strange looking men, then rest assured, those users that had the requirement, had the make-over, at a price.
really? Chwyatt ( talk) 19:09, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Apparently it is, according to: Republic of Sierra Leone Armed Forces. You may want to add it to the list of users. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.176.80.208 ( talk) 17:25, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
I know our special forces used it in Sierra Leone, but that's hardly the same thing. ;-) 194.74.62.195 ( talk) 14:28, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
I cannot see any justification for the two separate pages on the two L98 cadet variants of the SA80 system. The are less different than the L22 or L86 from the 'base' L85 model and of little wider significance as they are soley used by the MoD youth cadet organisations. I suggest they are subsumed into the relevant sections here. Brookesward ( talk) 13:09, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
I've noticed there's a "Citation Needed" note under this voice as far as it concerns the manufacturing company (LEI - Law Enforcement International, Ltd.) being of St.Albans, Hertfordshire.
Here is their address anyway:
Law Enforcement International Ltd.
PO Box 328
St. Albans - Hertfordshire
AL4 OWA England
Tel: 01727-826607 (Allow for Intl. numbers)
Fax: 01727-826615
Email: lei@lei.co.uk
Web:
http://www.lei.co.uk/ (under construction)
The Sterling AR-18 and Stoner 63 bullpup conversions, both look as if they were made from Enfield EM-2s.
Ionbh 01:14AM, 28/09/2011 (UTC)
Excellent find - helps demonstrate the role of the AR18 in the development of the SA80.
Strangways (
talk) 21:10, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
Hi Synaptic peach, some good info on the 4.85mm Enfield, but I have a couple of suggestions to amend it for clarity if I may:
"5.56mm Remington" is a conflation of the military 5.56x45mm NATO and the sporting .223 Remington versions of this cartridge, which though generally interchangeable, are produced to different specifications, including soft point sporting projectiles of various weights for the .223 Rem. The version that I think you are referring to as "then existing" is the US 5.56mm M193 round, which was introduced with the original M16/M16A1 which had a 55 grain projectile. The version that competed with (and was victorious over) the 4.85mm was the Belgian FN-designed SS109 5.56x45mm round which used a heavier 62 grain projectile.
Your reference to "Armalite" should be replaced by M16/M16A1 for clarity and linked to the M16 rifle page, as the AR18 (which page you have linked to) was never a US standard issue weapon.
You probably need to find a source for the assertion that the 4.85mm round was seen to be superior. There is one, as I have read it somewhere, can't remember where though. If I recall correctly it is related to the greater sectional density of the projectile which (other things such as muzzle velocity and projectile weight being similar) would mean superior performance at longer ranges.
"far more rounds of ammunition could be carried by an individual soldier". Undoubtedly true when compared to the 7.62mm, which is where the comment undoubtedly originated, but the weight difference between the 4.85mm and 5.56mm rounds is negligible - they are almost the same overall size (i.e. fit in a M16 magazine) and based on the same case, and the projectile weight is within a few grains (437.5 grains in an ounce).
"Remington and its supporters" Remington wasn't the advocate and was really nothing to do with it - it was the US Government who once again wanted its chosen solution to be adopted by NATO (unsurprising as they constitute more than 50% of NATO contributions). You are right about money being a big factor though.
There is an expert who contributes on here who has written an entire book on the 5.56 who knows way more than me though - he might comment at some stage. Strangways ( talk) 21:01, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
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Contrary to the article as of 7/2014, the .22 conversion l98A1 (in my experience) was definitely NOT semi automatic. Semi automatic would have required significant re-training for cadets, and would have complicated the very usage of the weapon that the kit was intended to negate. Mongoosander ( talk) 14:39, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
The .22 conversion kit has no restrictions on firing in either mode. The conversion kit was simply a barrel insert and magazines for the ammunition. RLS 84 ( talk) 22:16, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
Looking at the image of the "Bayonet attached to an L85A2 rifle. Note the barrel to the left," it looks like the bayonet fits into or over the barrel. Surely that can't be right; it would mean the bayonet could only be used as an utter last resort when one was out of ammunition, rather than as an option.
What am I missing? * Septegram* Talk* Contributions* 22:27, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
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In the "modifications" section, it says "The L85A1 was required to be able to fire 120 rounds over 24 hours, and the L86A1 was required to fire 800 rounds in 24 hours. The L85A2 is required to fire 150 rounds in 8 minutes 40 seconds, and the L86A2 is required to fire 960 rounds in 36 minutes."
I'm no firearms expert, but five rounds per hour (120 rounds in 24 hours) is a pretty slow rate of fire. I've never fired a muzzleloader, but I'm pretty sure I could do better than 5 shots per hour. Similarly, 150 rounds in 8 minutes 40 seconds works out to one shot every 3.4 seconds. That's substantially faster than one every six minutes, but even so, seems pretty slow for a semiautomatic combat weapon.
Did the numbers get jiggered or something?
* Septegram* Talk* Contributions* 19:39, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
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"L98A2 can also be distinguished from the A1 via the presence of a 'HK A2' stamp on their gas cylinders" As the L98A1 didn't have a gas cylinder is this part of the paragraph pointing out the difference between the L98A2 and L85A1? The wording is a bit ambiguous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.175.89.208 ( talk) 15:35, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
Maybe I'm blind, but I can't see it stated anywhere in the article. I would have assumed basic information like this would be fairly prominent Hammerfrog ( talk) 09:58, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
Why my edit "Caliber" not shows. Before edit there is an Calibre. Re? BlackeagleYT ( talk) 14:49, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
the L22A2 is also used by 4/73 "Sphinx" battery Royal Artillery 2A00:23C5:580B:4A01:8C18:83C2:843E:AF4A ( talk) 19:37, 9 August 2023 (UTC)