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Including this one. There were public hearings where you could see the extent of quiet backroom communication between the US government and Twitter for example, so why does this padlocked article suggest the very phrase itself is a conspiracy theory? The term is both nebulous and transient, and a more encyclopedic term would be "theory". 14.202.215.60 ( talk) 14:07, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
quiet backroom communication between the US government and Twitter. That narrative turns out to have been nonsense and is not reevant to this article anyhow. Do you have any reliable sources for your very broad statement and how the term conspiracy theory is misused in this article? O3000, Ret. ( talk) 14:14, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
User Pretendus has three times attempted to remove the attribution statement at the start of the article replacing to with a word generally used for those accused of crimes MOS:ALLEGED. The consensus text is closer to Wikipedia style. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 21:30, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Our goal should be to write the article in such a way that we are neither endorsing nor dismissing the concept of a deep state.
In addition, almost every reference to the deep state as a "conspiracy theory" is referring to specific claims about the alleged characteristics of the deep state, not to the concept of a deep state per se.
actually (many) more than 3. The problem with the article in its current form appears to be much more its selection of sources than its the framing of the deep state as a conspiracy theory. Newimpartial ( talk) 01:21, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
wrestle(s) seriously with the concept- the position of each source must be evaluated based on what it acfually says about the topic.
Do you see that as a satisfactory way to establish how, in terms of weight and due balance, the term "conspiracy theory" should be treated?
Philomathes2357, you should read your The Hill source again. It talks a lot about the "conspiracy theory" angle and analyzes who takes that view and who rejects it. Those who oppose that view are those who are comfortable with: Trump attacking civil servants for doing their job; Trump taking actions that just enrich himself; Trump endangering national security; Trump giving classified information to Russia, the worst possible ones to get that information; and Trump ruining alliances with our closest allies. It also discusses "deep state" versus "leaks". It covers the subject fairly well. It discusses how one's political alliances affect one's views on the subject, and how those who are disloyal to America tend to consider the "deep state" to be a real problem in America. They fail to realize that the American free press and lack of a dictatorship make it impossible for such a thing to function. What we have is leaks, and that is not a deep state. Your description does not do the article justice. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 02:43, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
To put words to the proposal by Philomathes2357, we could consider changing our PAG:
Our purpose here is to document and give free access to "the sum of all human knowledge" that is mentioned in reliable sources, with the exception of certain parts of reality and human knowledge (like "conspiracy theories", "far right", and "far left") that offend certain people who consider them "juvenile" or "derisive" terms. Wikipedia will exclude some common terms found in any dictionary and deny they exist or have any legitimate meaning. Wikipedia will change its rules and practices out of deference for the feelings of those people, to the exclusion of how all other people feel. It will deny those realities and not mention them, even when reliable sources mention them. The feelings of those people will trump reliable sources and all of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Wikipedia will do this out of deference for those who are easily offended.
Does anyone think that will fly here?
--
Valjean (
talk) (
PING me) 18:49, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
Let's examine this statement by Philomathes2357:
"In fact, the term has such strong connotations that its use is a very strong predictor of one's POV - the only people who call the concept of a deep state in the USA a "conspiracy theory" are those who reject the validity of the concept. The moment someone uses the term "conspiracy theory" in conversation, I instantly know what their political POV is on the issue at hand."
Yes, it can indeed be a "predictor of one's POV". It reveals one's beliefs about claims that are made by reliable and unreliable sources regarding certain events. It also reveals the source of one's beliefs. It also reveals one's knowledge or ignorance about a topic. This deals with some important principles that should be applied by all editors in each situation. Let's look at a different example:
So that's how it works. Philomathes2357 is correct. Both sides use the terms "conspiracy theory" and "lies", but with opposite usage about the same events. It works both ways, and one side is usually right and the other wrong. Those who play with bothsidism need to stop it.
Trump supporters claim Democrats push "Russiagate" conspiracy theories that are a witch hunt against Trump, and that there was no collusion at all between Russia and the Trump campaign. That's how the right-wing fringe uses the terms "conspiracy theory" and "lies". Both sides use the same terms but in different ways.
In any given situation, whether one calls something a "conspiracy theory" or a "fact" reveals whether or not one is competent to edit AmPol subjects. If an editor finds they are uncomfortable with, and constantly in conflict with, the content in our articles, it's time for them to take a look in the mirror and decide to radically change their beliefs and totally revise their use of sources. If they aren't willing to change, then Wikipedia is not the place for them to advocate their fringe views and waste the time of other editors. They should be silent about their beliefs and not edit or discuss those subjects. Fortunately, they can still do a lot of good here if they stick to uncontroversial topics and wikignoming.
These are simple principles that apply to all editors, so I'm not about to point any fingers. It's something we should all consider as we examine and reexamine our relationship to reliable sources, facts, unreliable sources, and lies. We should always be willing to follow the scientific method and follow the evidence, IOW to change our beliefs if RS demand we do so. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 23:20, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
if not voluntarily kept in check, sanctionableOK, you are WP:1AM. But let us not start drama board threats. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 00:13, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
When in doubt, use attribution. When not in doubt, then wikivoice is okay.Clarification: This is not about when a single user is in doubt, or even several users. It is when reliable sources are in doubt or contradict each other. Right? -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 08:45, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
When in doubt, use attributionand run with it right toward WP:FALSEBALANCE. But that last contribution should clarify it. -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 14:47, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
I'm not sure what we've "gone over a dozen times", but you have yet to address my concerns about WP:WEIGHT.
the way it has workedin discussions I have seen over the years to resolve difficult questions of characterization in wikivoice. This isn't about determing what anything really is per WP:NOTTRUTH, it is a matter of thoughtfully (not by straw poll) assessing what sources say.
I have reviewed all 59 sources currently cited in the article. Only two of them refer to the concept of a deep state in the United States as a "conspiracy theory" in the author's voiceand
Out of the additional 56 sources ... none of them characterize the concept of a deep state in the USA as a "conspiracy theory". Therefore, I think the answer to the RFC is clearly "no".In spite of what they are saying here, that approach absolutely does count the 56 sources as
against it being a conspiracy theory. If the two sources used in the article were the only ones (or clearly the best ones) weighing in on whether or not the deep state is a conspiracy theory, then we would be required by policy to refer to it in wikivoice as a conspiracy theory. The relevance of the other sources to the question at hand has simply not been established. Newimpartial ( talk) 20:57, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
Does the WP:WEIGHT of the currently cited sources support characterizing the concept of a deep state in the United States as a "conspiracy theory" in Wikivoice in the opening sentence? Philomathes2357 ( talk) 23:00, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
a clandestine network of members of the federal government (especially within the FBI and CIA), working in conjunction with high-level financial and industrial entities and leaders, to exercise power, which is the conspiracy theory described in this article. The sources are talking about other things (including the false claims by conservatives, which they also describe as false). Newimpartial ( talk) 14:36, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
This is a lengthy comment in which I respond to the 5 arguments that I have seen from the "yes" voters. I rebut them, with RS and extensive references to policy, and make note of
WP:DETCON and
WP:VOTE.
Philomathes2357 (
talk) 06:33, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
|
---|
Comment - I hope an uninvolved administrator will consider the following before closing: Please do not determine this RFC purely on the basis of a vote. Please also consider the relative merits of the arguments presented, per WP:DETCON. Most of the statements made in this RFC vote, and in the preceding discussion, are either 1) personal opinions about the deep state that are immaterial to the RFC, or 2) verifiably false. These statements have been asserted with such confidence, and in such overwhelming numbers, that it will take a great deal of text to refute them, per Brandolini's law. Five "arguments" have been made by the "yes" voters:
None of these arguments stand up to scrutiny, as I will demonstrate below: 1) - No reliable sources take the concept of a deep state in the United States seriously/scholarly consensus is that it is a conspiracy theory. @ Valjean said "Do RS make a valid case for the existence of a "deep state in the United States"? No. Only unreliable sources make a serious attempt to do that." and "There is no good evidence for the existence of any form of effective deep state in the United States." @ Newimpartial - "...(this article) is about the clandestine network of members of the federal government (especially within the FBI and CIA), working in conjunction with high-level financial and industrial entities and leaders, to exercise power alongside or within the elected United States government, which is regarded by scholarly consensus as a conspiracy theory...(there is) no reason to redefine the article as though the existence of this shadowy network of intelligence officials and financiers were a simple matter of opinion, or an issue on which the HQRS are divided." @ Objective3000 said - "I don’t see any RS subscribing to this theory...what RS say it is true or even plausible? Do we now suggest that Trump’s repetitive claims that Biden has instructed the FBI to assassinate him is possibly true?" @ HandThatFeeds - "People who engage in careful consideration of the concept of a deep state are not endorsing its factual existence, they're treating it as an intellectual exercise, much like those who carefully analyze the concept of Russel's (sic) teapot do not claim there is actual pottery orbiting the sun." @ BobFromBrockley - "There is, though, no doubt that the overwhelming majority of RSs use this term and pretty much no RSs contradict that or use it as a serious descriptive term." This argument is unequivocally and demonstrably false. Here's a list of RS that contradict these assertions - the list is not even close to exhaustive. 1) The Wall Street Journal - "The Deep State"" - "I have come to wonder if we don’t have what amounts to a deep state within the outer state in the U.S.—a deep state consisting of our intelligence and security agencies, which are so vast and far-flung in their efforts that they themselves don’t fully know who’s in charge and what everyone else is doing." 2) Boston University School of Law - "Bureaucratic Resistance and the National Security State" - "These “deep state” and “benevolent constraints” approaches to bureaucratic behavior track debates in the scholarship over the legitimacy of the administrative state more broadly, and are used as rhetorical devices to challenge or defend current allocations of power." 3) The New York Times - State Within a State? Is the Central Intelligence Agency a State Within a State? 4) The Huffington Post - "The Quiet Coup: No, Not Egypt. Here. - "The United States is partially governed by a deep state: undemocratic, secret, aligned with intelligence agencies, spying on friend and foe, lawless in almost every respect. If this doesn't constitute a coup d'etat, it's hard to imagine what would." 5) The Boston Globe - "Vote all you want. The secret government won’t change." - "The people we elect aren’t the ones calling the shots, says Tufts University’s Michael Glennon...He uses the term “double government”: There’s the one we elect, and then there’s the one behind it, steering huge swaths of policy almost unchecked. Elected officials end up serving as mere cover for the real decisions made by the bureaucracy...And he’s not a conspiracy theorist: Rather, he sees the problem as one of “smart, hard-working, public-spirited people acting in good faith who are responding to systemic incentives”—without any meaningful oversight to rein them in." By Peter Dale Scott: 6) - "The Fates Of American Presidents Who Challenged The Deep State (1963-1980)" "In the last decade it has become more and more obvious that we have in America today what the journalists Dana Priest and William Arkin have called two governments: the one its citizens were familiar with, operated more or less in the open: the other a parallel top secret government whose parts had mushroomed in less than a decade into a gigantic, sprawling universe of its own, visible to only a carefully vetted cadre—and its entirety . . . visible only to God. And in 2013, particularly after the military return to power in Egypt, more and more authors referred to this second level as America’s “deep state.” 7) The American Deep State, Deep Events, And Off-The-Books Financing "In the last chapter, I described an ambiguous symbiosis between two different aspects of the American deep state:
8) The State, The Deep State, And The Wall Street Overworld - "At the end of 2013 a New York Times Op-Ed noted this trend, and even offered a definition of the term that will work for the purposes of this essay: "DEEP STATE: n. A hard-to-perceive level of government or super-control that exists regardless of elections and that may thwart popular movements or radical change. Some have said that Egypt is being manipulated by its deep state. The political activities of the deep state are the chief source and milieu of what I have elsewhere called “deep politics:” “all those political practices and arrangements, deliberate or not, which are usually repressed rather than acknowledged."
10) The Financial Times - "CIA Report is a strike back against the deep state" 11) The New York Times - "A former C.I.A. officer with experience in Turkey wrote a provocative essay this summer about the “deep state.” The phrase refers to a parallel “secret government” embedded in the military and intelligence services, whose purpose is to provide a check on electoral democracy. But Turkey wasn’t the target of the essay, written by Philip Giraldi. He was aiming, as his headline declared, at “Deep State America.” Mr. Giraldi... called the American deep state of today an “unelected, unappointed, and unaccountable presence within the system that actually manages what is taking place behind the scenes.”...In contrast to Turkey, where Mr. Giraldi said a covert “deep state” had taken root in the security realm, the American deep state of his description consists of visible people like the Clintons and the former C.I.A. director David H. Petraeus, concentrated around New York and Washington, who live at the fertile nexus of government and corporate power: Capitol Hill aides and legislators who cash in as lobbyists; former politicians who earn millions speaking to banks, or landing sinecures with them; technocrats who ricochet between Goldman Sachs and the Treasury Department; billionaire kingmakers dangling political donations; thinkers whose tanks are financed by corporations with a financial stake in their research...now if this sounds like the rant of a lefty conspiracy theorist, consider the article’s home: a magazine called The American Conservative, a contrarian thorn in the side of the establishment right. The “deep state” metaphor seems to be ascendant as a way to explain present American realities." 12) The New York Times - "As Leaks Multiply, Fears of a 'Deep State' in America" - "So is the United States seeing the rise of its own deep state? Not quite...but the echoes are real — and disturbing...Issandr El Amrani, an analyst who has written on Egypt’s deep state, said he was concerned by the parallels, though the United States has not reached authoritarian extremes...“As an American citizen I find it really quite disheartening to see all these similarities to Egypt,” Mr. El Amrani said...Though the deep state is sometimes discussed as a shadowy conspiracy, it helps to think of it instead as a political conflict between a nation’s leader and its governing institutions." 13) Hans J. Morgenthau - "The Impact of the Loyalty-Security Measures on the State Department" - refers to a "dual-state", describing the same idea referred to as a "deep state" in later literature. 14) The Huffington Post - "The Deep State is a Very Real Thing" by George Friedman. "The deep state is, in fact, a very real thing. It is, however, neither a secret nor nearly as glamorous as the concept might indicate. It has been in place since 1871 and continues to represent the real mechanism beneath the federal government, controlling and frequently reshaping elected officials’ policies....The point is that the idea that there is a deep state hidden from view that really controls things is absolutely true, except for the fact that it is not only visible to everyone who looks but is written into law. It exists not because of conspiracy, but because of the desire to shield government from politics. I understand the logic, but the result has unexpected and unpleasant consequences." 15) Salon - "Is Michael Flynn the first casualty of a "deep state" coup? It's not unthinkable" - "Take a listen to former Democratic congressman Dennis Kucinich, who represented the Bernie Sanders left before Sanders did. He makes a reasonable case that Flynn’s departure was essentially the first shot fired in a "deep state" coup against Trump." 16) Essay: Anatomy of the Deep State - "There is the visible government situated around the Mall in Washington, and then there is another, more shadowy, more indefinable government that is not explained in Civics 101 or observable to tourists at the White House or the Capitol. The former is traditional Washington partisan politics: the tip of the iceberg that a public watching C-SPAN sees daily and which is theoretically controllable via elections. The subsurface part of the iceberg I shall call the Deep State, which operates according to its own compass heading regardless of who is formally in power...The Deep State does not consist of the entire government. It is a hybrid of national security and law enforcement agencies...As the indemnification vote showed, the Deep State does not consist only of government agencies. What is euphemistically called “private enterprise” is an integral part of its operations. In a special series in The Washington Post called “Top Secret America,” Dana Priest and William K. Arkin described the scope of the privatized Deep State and the degree to which it has metastasized after the September 11 attacks...The Deep State is the big story of our time. It is the red thread that runs through the war on terrorism, the financialization and deindustrialization of the American economy, the rise of a plutocratic social structure and political dysfunction." 17) NPR - "The Man Who Popularized the 'Deep State' Doesn't Like The Way It's Used" - "Lofgren wrote an essay called, "Anatomy of the Deep State." The essay is not partisan. Lofgren criticizes both parties, along with the national security community, Wall Street and Silicon Valley. And he takes pains to point out that he's not a conspiracy theorist." 18) The Guardian - "The 'deep state' is real. But are its leaks against Trump justified?" - "the deep state, which is a real phenomenon, has long been both a threat to democratic politics and a savior of it...the deep state has been blamed for many things since Donald Trump became president, including by the president himself. Trump defenders have used the term promiscuously to include not just intelligence bureaucrats but a broader array of connected players in other administrative bureaucracies, in private industry, and in the media...but even if we focus narrowly on the intelligence bureaucracies that conduct and use information collected secretly in the homeland...there is significant evidence that the deep state has used secretly collected information opportunistically and illegally to sabotage the president and his senior officials – either as part of a concerted movement or via individuals acting more or less independently." 19) Vox - "The “deep state” is real. But it’s not what Trump thinks it is" - "And Trump’s deep state obsession isn’t a new thing...it has always been a diversion, whether it was coming from Trump or Fox News. But here’s the thing: The deep state isn’t exactly a phantasm. There are parts of the US government that wield real power outside the conventional checks and balances of the system. It’s not a conspiracy against Trump, but the term does refer to something that exists." 20) ACLU - "Do U.S. Politicians Need to Fear Our Intelligence Agencies?" - "We know that the security establishment is enormously bloated, that it abuses its secrecy powers to advance its own interests, and that it engages in abuse of whistleblowers and others who challenge it. We know that it sometimes wantonly violates the law, and that it has a frightening degree of surveillance power. But what these reports hint at is that these powers have become a dangerously independent and significant force within our democratic system...we are about to find out how much power the Deep State “constituency” really has." 21) Real Clear Politics - "...former Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) said the "deep state" within the bureaucracy is trying to destroy Donald Trump's presidency. "The political process of the United States of America being under attack by intelligence agencies and individuals in those agencies..." 22) Asia Times - "It's time to abolish CIA & FISA: How to defend the Republic against the Deep State" - "America’s Intelligence agencies are the deep state’s deepest part, and the most immediate threat to representative government."
23) Ambinder, Marc; Grady, D.B. (2013). Deep State: Inside the Government Secrecy Industry. Wiley. 24) Priest, Dana; Arkin, William M. (2011). Top Secret America: The Rise of the New American Security State. Little, Brown and Company. 25) Scott, Peter Dale (2014). The American Deep State: Wall Street, Big Oil, and the Attack on U.S. Democracy. 26) Lofgren, Mike (2016). The Deep State: The Fall of the Constitution and the Rise of a Shadow Government. Viking. 27) Rohde, David (2020). In Deep: The FBI, the CIA, and the Truth about America's "Deep State". W. W. Norton & Company. 28) Good, Aaron (2022). American Exception: Empire and the Deep State. New York: Skyhorse Publishing. There are plenty of others, but I think I've made my point: this is an issue about which RS are divided. And a cursory reading of these sources shows that they are analyzing the "deep state in the United States" in a way that is completely different from Russell's Teapot. Numerous RS do indeed treat a "deep state in the United States" as 'plausible', or, at minimum, as a useful term for conceptualizing a real phenomenon in American politics, rather than a baseless conspiracy theory. Treating the concept purely as a "conspiracy theory", by putting that term in Wikivoice, is a violation of WP:NPOV, which instructs us to "fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, (represent) all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." So, argument 1 is simply false. 2) - This article is not about the concept of a "deep state in the United States", it is exclusively about Donald Trump's conspiracy theories about the deep state. @ Valjean said "...the claims by Trump and Co. (that they are the victims of a deep state) are a conspiracy theory, and that's what this article is about." @ Newimpartial - "this article is not about all possible meanings of "the Deep State in the United States"...rather, it is about the clandestine network of members of the federal government (especially within the FBI and CIA), working in conjunction with high-level financial and industrial entities and leaders, to exercise power alongside or within the elected United States government, which is regarded by scholarly consensus as a conspiracy theory." @ HandThatFeeds - "This page is about the conspiracy theory, not the concept of a deep state in general. That has its own article. This is not the place to argue about the general concept, this is a page specifically about the conspiracy theory that the USA is actually being run by a "deep state". @ Objective3000 - "Yes it should be called "US deep state conspiracy theory" as that's what the article is about." "...(there is) no reason to redefine the article as though the existence of this shadowy network of intelligence officials and financiers were a simple matter of opinion, or an issue on which the HQRS are divided." The argument here is that the article "Deep state in the United States" is not about the concept of a deep state in the United States. Instead, these editors allege that the article is, despite the title, actually only about one narrow aspect of the concept - the conspiracy theories promulgated by "Trump and Co" since 2017. That is simply not the case, and if it were the case, it would be a violation of policy. Of course, Donald Trump's use of the term is important and covered quite a bit by RS, but it is absolutely not the only way the term has been discussed by RS, as a literature review conclusively demonstrates and as @ Alaexis has pointed out. Multiple RS actually take care to note that, while many of Trump's claims about the deep state are based on conspiracy theories, the underlying concept is valid - failing to do this is an equivocation fallacy. Any attempt to make this article exclusively about "Donald Trump's conspiracy theories" would be problematic on WP:WEIGHT grounds, POV-pushing grounds, and WP:RECENTISM grounds (I am aware of zero sources use the term "conspiracy theory" prior to 2017). It would also prompt the obvious question "if this article is only about the "conspiracy theory", what do we do with the dozens of sources about "deep state in the United States" that are not about Donald Trump's conspiracy theories?" Perhaps this article could be renamed "deep state conspiracy theories in the United States", as O3000 suggested. But be a violation of WP:POVFORK, which says "all facts and major points of view on a certain subject should be treated in one article." Argument #2, therefore, is completely untenable. 3) - No reliable sources have explicitly said "the deep state is NOT a conspiracy theory", so it is an uncontested factual assertion. @ Hob Gadling - "Reliable sources that do not mention those terms do not cancel those that do. Such canceling could only be done by reliable sources that explicitly say the terms do not apply" This a rather dubious interpretation of WP:WEIGHT. WEIGHT does not imply in any way that labels should be mechanistically applied any time they are are not explicitly rejected by RS. If that was how WEIGHT was handled, it would lead to an orgy of POV-pushing across the encyclopedia. Other editors have rejected this line of reasoning, such as when @ Newimpartial, to their credit, said "Sources must be read for content, not for keywords only" and "Editors should bring the best sources from all viewpoints to the discussion of weight, so they can be assessed as RS or HQRS and categorized in whether or not they support the proposed characterization. And supporting the characterizarion (sic) doesn't depend on keywords." Hob Gadling's method for determining the WEIGHT of labels would lead to some absurd outcomes, as I've discussed elsewhere. I'm happy to expand on why this is absurd if any editors find Hob Gadling's interpretation of WEIGHT to be compelling. But even if we entertain Hob Gadling's interpretation of WP:WEIGHT, the description "conspiracy theory" is still not an uncontested factual assertion, as there are multiple sources, including but not limited to source #5, source #11, source #12, source #17, source #19 above, that engage explicitly with the terms "conspiracy", "conspiracy theory", and "conspiracy theorist", and do not accept that framing of the concept. 4) - If we look at ALL the available RS, not just the ones cited in the article, we will find that there is a clear consensus among RS that the deep state concept is purely a "conspiracy theory". @ Newimpartial - "Philomathes' methodology is fatally flawed. Their approach excludes sources not used in the article - which is most of the good ones...the answer to the question posed in the RfC - at least the real question, do the sources support "conspiracy theory" in wikivoice - is therefore "yes" Newimpartial presents no sources. Since these hypothetical sources have not been examined and discussed by other editors, their hypothetical existence is irrelevant to the RFC until Newimpartial presents them. Newimpartial also makes the logical leap that if ALL sources were considered, an uncontested consensus would emerge that the "deep state in the United States" is a conspiracy theory, and only a conspiracy theory. There is no evidence for that assertion, and Newimpartial has not shown evidence that he has conducted a literature review on the topic. It also fails to take into account the fact that there are many source un-cited in the article that treat "deep state in the United States" as something quite distinct from a baseless "conspiracy theory". So, argument #4 is speculative conjecture. WEIGHT should be determined by a rigorous literature review, not by feels and vibes. 5) - It is my personal opinion that a deep state does not exist in the United States/I think Philomathes is a POV-pusher @ Valjean - "There is no good evidence for the existence of any form of effective deep state in the United States. The existence of an extensive free press and lack of a dictatorship make it impossible. We have leaks, and they would undermine attempts to establish such a deep state." @ Objective3000 - " Yes - Surely there would be leaks from the massive number of people it would require to hide the “fact” that the country is controlled by a cabal." and " WP:SEALIONING" (referring to me) @ HandThatFeeds - " It is a settled matter. The idea there is a "deep state" running things behind the scenes is utter conspiracist nonsense." and "I'm accusing you of bad faith at this point. I'm also removing this article from my watchlist, because I have enough stressors without dealing with a conspiracist POV-pusher."
These are personal opinions with no bearing on the RFC. They do not address the topic of WP:WEIGHT and make no reference to any sources or policies. At best, they are off-topic per WP:NOTFORUM. At worst, they are violations of WP:CIVIL and WP:NOTHERE.
@ Tryptofish - "but I've read the talk section directly above this one, and it seems obvious to me that there is sufficient sourcing "out there" to describe it as a "conspiracy theory" No mention of WP:WEIGHT or any other policies, and no mention of any sources. In fact, when this comment was made, zero sources supporting the term "conspiracy theory" had been posted in the talk section, so Tryptofish's methodology for reaching this conclusion is unclear. Perhaps they will amend their comment to explain their methodology and demonstrate that it is more sound than mine. @ Lukewarmbeer and @ Binksternet did not make arguments, simply adding a +1.
None of the "yes" votes have demonstrated that the weight of reliable sources supports using the term "conspiracy theory" in Wikivoice. The 9 "yes" voters have directly cited a cumulative total of zero policies to support their view. I have given a careful source and policy-based argument that "conspiracy theory" is a term that represents the views of a minority of RS, and a plurality of recent RS, and should therefore be covered in extensively the article, but should not be the exclusive framing of the article. I have argued that limiting this article's scope only to Donald Trump's conspiracy theories, as some editors suggest, would violate WP:RECENTISM, WP:NPOV in general & WP:WEIGHT in particular, and WP:POVFORK. Please note that I have in no way suggested that the article should cover the deep state as a "fact" - that would be POV pushing - I am simply saying that we must follow WP:NPOV and cover, by applying WP:WEIGHT, all of the views expressed by RS. I hope that the "yes" voters will show integrity and class by respecting the time and effort I have put into thinking this matter through, and by rebutting my points with a similar level of detail and rigor, basing their arguments on Wikipedia's policies. I also hope this comment makes it clear that I am a serious editor who is trying to think these things through carefully, and will put to rest the insinuations that I am nothing but a kooky bad-faith POV-pusher, as multiple editors have inappropriately suggested. If I was a POV-pusher, I would not have dedicated multiple hours of intense focus to write this comment. If you still think I am a POV pusher, you are free to make your case at ANI. We are all here in good faith, including the editors who I've quoted above - even though some of my assessments of their work have been harsh, I do not question their good faith, their intelligence, and their desire to improve Wikipedia in service of our readers, I merely question the validity and rigor of their arguments. I hope that the closing admin will keep in mind that, despite the appearance of consensus here, Wikipedia is not a democracy, that NPOV "cannot be superseded by consensus", and that consensus itself is "ascertained by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy". I rest my case. Philomathes2357 ( talk) 00:57, 29 May 2024 (UTC) |
Responses and discussion of the collapsed section above
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[3] “Deep State in the US: What is the conspiracy theory and what has Donald Trump said?”
[4] “The imaginary 'deep state' conspiracy theorists”
[5] “Conspiracy Theories in Digital Environments " "Deep state phobia”
[6] “the Deep State conspiracy theory.”
[7] “Trump’s obsession with Deep State conspiracy”
[8] “Trump embraces deep state conspiracy theory”
[9] “Team Trump’s ‘deep state’ paranoia fans conspiracy theories”
[10] "Until recently, the fringe conspiracy theory known as QAnon was largely an American phenomenon — a belief that U.S. President Donald Trump is secretly battling a ‘deep state’ cabal of pedophiles that control the world.”
[11] “The ‘deep state’ is President Trump’s most compelling conspiracy theory”
[12] “trump-begins-openly-embracing-and-amplifying-false-fringe-qanon-conspiracy-theory “ “so-called deep state”.
[13] QAnon, conspiracy theory originating in forum posts on the website 4chan in October 2017. Conspiracy adherents believed that U.S. Pres. Donald Trump was waging a secret war against a cabal of satanic cannibalistic pedophiles within Hollywood, the Democratic Party, and the so-called ‘deep state’ within the United States government.”
[14] “what-is-the-qanon-conspiracy-theory” “QAnon exists as a kind of parallel history, in which a "deep state" took over decades ago.”
[15] “The Deep State conspiracy theory is making us all play defense”
[16] “The Deep State A common claim among QAnon conspiracists is that a shadowy network of politicians and bureaucrats secretly collaborate to control the government behind the scenes.”
[17] “Is Fauci A’Deep State’ Doctor?” “The Conspiracy Theory That Is Sickening America” O3000, Ret. ( talk) 21:01, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
clandestine network of members of the federal government (especially within the FBI and CIA), working in conjunction with high-level financial and industrial entities and leaders, to exercise power alongside or within the elected United States government, which is regarded by scholarly consensus as a conspiracy theory.
to characterize the concept of a deep state in the United States purely in terms of Donald Trump erases all journalistic and scholarly commentary on the concept that predates or is unrelated to Trump; and 2)
this article is not about all possible meanings of "the Deep State in the United States". Of these, the second is correct, and the first not terribly pertinent, because the scope of this article is not "every possible use of the phrase", especially former uses that have been eclipsed and are no longer current. We can probably address them in a short paragraph about how the interpretation and use of the phrase has changed, but we all know that the current Trumpist meaning is what 99.99% of readers are going to be expecting. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:33, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
Deep state: The alleged shadowy network of members of the armed forces, government departments and spy agencies working with non-elected elites. The term was bandied about heavily during the Trump administration, when the president accused bureaucrats in law-enforcement and national-security agencies of supporting his predecessor, Barack Obama, and undermining him.
This article explores the context, legacy and influence of David Wise and Thomas Ross’ influential history of the CIA, The Invisible Government. It highlights how the book broke the silence in the American media on CIA covert operations. It documents the CIA’s attempts to censor the book upon its publication. It will also show how the book was reinterpreted by conspiracy theorists, Soviet propagandists, and leading figures within the decolonization movement. Finally, it argues that the book’s ultimate legacy, although a misreading of their original argument, can be found in the ‘deep state’ narrative so prevalent among conspiracy theorists today.
Donald Trump and his loyalists invoked the concept of the deep state when confronted with resistance to the president’s agenda. The hazy concept of the deep state was tied to the long-standing conservative critique of the administrative state and the growth of the federal bureaucracy. Together, they conveyed reproach that Trump was subverted by a shadowy network of unelected bureaucrats that illegitimately holds the levers of real power in the United States. But there is no deep state.
The term “deep state” has enjoyed political prominence in recent years, especially in movements around former President Donald Trump. However, the term emerged in the activist milieu after the founding of Students for a Democratic Society, which sought to engender political realignment in the aftermath of the Kennedy assassination. Those on the far right who use the term to level accusations of conspiracy at supposed subversives in the administrative state are unwittingly drawing on a long-running but little-analyzed intellectual tradition... Conspiracy theories allowed activists to mobilize around shared gaps in public knowledge about traumatic events like the assassination, activating public dissatisfaction with official explanations of those events.
Situating spiritual warfare demonology in relation to narratives of ‘post-truth politics’ as the destabilisation of neoliberal consensus reality, the article explores how charismatic evangelicals position Trump’s election as a divine assault on a demoniac status quo, epitomised in the conspiratorial figure of the ‘Deep State.’
One aspect of the politicization of norms is Trump’s enthusiastic embrace, and creation, of norms of public sector delegitimization. Trump genuinely seems to believe the deep state conspiracy theories he gave frequent voice to. It is impossible to find a President since the civil service was constructed who is so taken with the idea that career officials are a force of evil he needs to control.
Donald Trump’s belief that a conspiracy lay buried in the depths of the federal government pre-dated his election. As president, his fear of this “deep state” allegedly at war with him and his policies intensified. In the waning days of his term, he became enamored of the ideas linked to QAnon, the mysterious figure who claimed that Trump was leading a counter-conspiracy that would destroy the deep state. The result was a quasi-occult scenario predicting a dramatic final conflict between light and darkness.
From election denial to QAnon, the origins of our age of misinformation too often go unexamined. That’s too bad, because unraveling the roots of one popular conspiracy theory—of a “deep state”—might reveal something important about the cynicism now infecting U.S politics.
BobFromBrockley ( talk) 11:24, 28 May 2024 (UTC)