This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 85 | ← | Archive 88 | Archive 89 | Archive 90 | Archive 91 | Archive 92 | → | Archive 94 |
I'd like to bump this series up to an error. The non-authors categories are routinely at 0 and the authors category is in the realm of 1k currently but also being poked at (by a couple people).
Are there any concerns with that? Izno ( talk) 22:31, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
|author-mask=
or |display-authors=
.|url=
that duplicates the |oclc=
. I think I might prefer a human to clean these up anyway because they sometimes have the
Category:CS1 maint: others issue as well (though that seems to have improved given the size of that category has not increased significantly in a while, so maybe a bot running over that one to get citation data again from Citoid would be a good idea -- Citation bot might already have the right stuff to do something there).Mobile users are not able to see error messageschanging maintenance messaging to error messaging will not benefit them. Are you sure that mobile users cannot see error messages?
Made the minimal adjustment in the sandbox, feel free to adjust emitted error text or category name.
Wikitext | {{cite book
|
---|---|
Live | 1234. Title. {{
cite book}} : |author= has numeric name (
help)
|
Sandbox | 1234. Title. {{
cite book}} : |author= has numeric name (
help)
|
Wikitext | {{cite book
|
---|---|
Live | 1234 (ed.). Title. {{
cite book}} : |editor= has numeric name (
help)
|
Sandbox | 1234 (ed.). Title. {{
cite book}} : |editor= has numeric name (
help)
|
Wikitext | {{cite book
|
---|---|
Live | One; 1234; 5678. Title. {{
cite book}} : |author2= has numeric name (
help)
|
Sandbox | One; 1234; 5678. Title. {{
cite book}} : |author2= has numeric name (
help)
|
It would probably be nice if the number (editor number 5) could be in the error instead. I think there was some discussion of similar elsewhere for another error at some point?
Do we think we'll need a category for each kind of author going forward, with so few as we have now? Izno ( talk) 20:22, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
[it] would probably be nice if the number (editor number 5) could be in the error instead?
numeric data in |author=
.
Folly Mox (
talk) 22:17, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
|author<n>=
and |last<n>=
:
~6700 times out|contributor<n>=
, |contributor-last<n>=
:
no results timed out|editor<n>=
, |editor-last<n>=
:
~240 times out|interviewer<n>=
, |interviewer-last<n>=
:
~10 times out|translator<n>=
, |translator-last<n>=
:
~300 times out|author<n>=
and |last<n>=
:
~1100 times out|author=
, |editor=
, |last=
, etc.Wikitext | {{cite book
|
---|---|
Live | Incropera 1 Dewitt 2 Bergman 3 Lavigne 4, Frank P. 1 David P. 2 Theodore L. 3 Adrienne S. 4 (2007).
Fundamentals of heat and mass transfer (6th ed.). Hoboken, NJ: John Wiley and Sons, Inc. pp. 941–950.
ISBN
9780471457282.
OCLC
62532755.{{
cite book}} : CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (
link)
|
Sandbox | Incropera 1 Dewitt 2 Bergman 3 Lavigne 4, Frank P. 1 David P. 2 Theodore L. 3 Adrienne S. 4 (2007).
Fundamentals of heat and mass transfer (6th ed.). Hoboken, NJ: John Wiley and Sons, Inc. pp. 941–950.
ISBN
9780471457282.
OCLC
62532755.{{
cite book}} : CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (
link)
|
Wikitext | {{cite web
|
---|---|
Live | Williams, Carter; July 2, KSL com | Updated-; July 1, 2021 at 11:04 a m | Posted-; P.m, 2021 at 6:07.
"Rare wolverine sighting in Layton may be same animal spotted in May". www.ksl.com. Retrieved 2021-10-05.{{
cite web}} : CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link) CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (
link)
|
Sandbox | Williams, Carter; July 2, KSL com | Updated-; July 1, 2021 at 11:04 a m | Posted-; P.m, 2021 at 6:07.
"Rare wolverine sighting in Layton may be same animal spotted in May". www.ksl.com. Retrieved 2021-10-05.{{
cite web}} : CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link) CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (
link)
|
I discovered a flaw in the coding for |display-translators=
when that parameter's value came from a {{
cs1 config}}
template. The flaw was the omission of a variable in a function call. Fixed in sandbox and live modules.
— Trappist the monk ( talk) 20:00, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
And sort of related: fixed a bug that caused the module to emit an error message that isn't intended to be emitted. The error message 'Invalid |cs1 config=3 ' occurred because the module did not remove the extraneous space characters between the parameter's assigned value and the closing }}
: {{cs1 config |display-authors=3 }}
. This was only an issue with |display-<name list>=
parameters. |cs1 config=
is an unsupported parameter name used as a flag to prevent the module from emitting an Invalid |display-authors=<n> (and the like) when <n>
is equal to or greater than the number of names in the author name list when a global |display-<name list>=
is controlling the name list display.
Fixed in sandbox and live modules.
— Trappist the monk ( talk) 22:22, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
I have changed how the module sandbox handles global |display-authors=<n>
when a cs1|2 template has |display-authors=etal
. This change also applies to all of the other name list display parameters
The live module emits a maintenance message whenever a template has |display-authors=<anything>
. The sandbox is more discriminating.
When a template has |display-authors=etal
, there are other authors who are not named in the template so
Module:Citation/CS1 should always add the 'et al.' static text. When the template lists more names than are specified by the global |display-authors=<n>
(four named authors but global |display-authors=2
for example), the live template correctly renders two names with the 'et al.' static text and emits the overridden setting maintenance message. However, when the number of authors listed in the template is the same or fewer than the number specified by the global |display-authors=
, the module correctly displays the author names but incorrectly omits the 'et al.' static text which makes it appear that there are no more authors associated with the cited work.
The sandbox remedies this. When the number of authors listed in a template that has |display-authors=etal
is less-than-or-equal to the number of authors specified in the global |display-authors=
, the module applies the 'et al.' static text. Examples comparing the live v. sandbox module renderings for all name lists are shown in
this version of my sandbox.
— Trappist the monk ( talk) 16:49, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
I got this error message:
after I added this doi to a cite book template in the article Metre:
If I click the doi in the rendered bibliography it downloads the pdf just as it should. The publisher is the National Institute of Standards and Technology. Jc3s5h ( talk) 13:39, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
I have ported over the citation and language templates for use on another MediaWiki wiki. It all seems to be working well with the strange (and very specific) exception of the ISO 639-1 name that the CS1 citation template pulls for the "la" language code (Latin) returns "Latina" instead of "Latin". This causes the Category:CS1 Latin-language sources (la) that is generated on the article page contains an of the citations tagged with the "la" language code to be incorrect (it generates "Category:CS1 Latina-language sources (la)"). The Template:Citation Style documentation/language/doc on my wiki returns everything fine as well with the singular exception of "Latin" which also returns "Latina". Does anyone know how or where to fix this? I have re-ported over all the templates and modules that make up the various citation components, as well as all the ISO templates and modules, but I can't find where or how it is converting "Latin" to "Latina". – Lestatdelc ( talk) 22:38, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
{{#language:la|xx}}
(where xx
is the 2-or-3-digit language tag for the other wiki's language), MediaWiki should return that language's name for Latin. You can also try, at the other wiki, {{#language:la}}
. If either test returns 'Latina' then the problem is at MediaWiki and perhaps further upstream at Unicode CLDR.I think in the general users working on errors and maintenance categories tend to avoid draft space as they're obviously not in mainspace (and perhaps for some, they don't want to reset the 6 month clock). In another discussion, someone identified that some templates categorize their drafts to the Δ key (still with ABC order), which places it (on en.wp at least) at the back of the category list. I'd like to suggest that CS1 do this also. Izno ( talk) 22:36, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
{{
CS1 config}}
as an experiment, the template was categorized at the top of the list at
Category:Templates with no visible output. We don't need many. I think that draft, template, and Wikipedia are the most common namespaces that use cs1|2 templates. All other supported namespaces could be grouped with a common sort key.[[:Category:...]]
instead of [[Category:...]]
. When a sandbox template is rendered, the sort key is rendered as a wikilink at the end of the rendering (after the error/maintenance messages):{{cite book/new |title=Title |date=27 Augst 2023 |authors=EB Green}}
{{
cite book}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |authors=
ignored (
help)
'"`UNIQ--templatestyles-00000046-QINU`"'<cite class="citation book cs1">''Title''. 27 Augst 2023.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Title&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AHelp+talk%3ACitation+Style+1%2FArchive+90" class="Z3988"></span> <span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">{{[[Template:cite book|cite book]]}}</code>: </span><span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment">Check date values in: <code class="cs1-code">|date=</code> ([[Help:CS1 errors#bad_date|help]])</span>; <span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment">Unknown parameter <code class="cs1-code">|authors=</code> ignored ([[Help:CS1 errors#parameter_ignored|help]])</span>
It is hard to test this change so for the time being I have disabled the namespace categorization limit in the sandboxwhere
for the time beingcan be read as 'temporary'.
Heya, folks. I regularly check a CS1 tracking category ( this one, if that matters) to look for pages with wrong language codes. Recently, I found out that the page Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 6 was also included in the category (and hundreds of others) because it uses the template {{ Cite book/new}} with the language parameter set. I presume this happens because of a change made to Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox at some point, but I'm not competent enough to find or fix it, so I'd appreciate some help here. ArcticSeeress ( talk) 22:21, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
{{cite book |title=Northern Sami |language=se}}
– no category link in this rendering:
'"`UNIQ--templatestyles-0000004B-QINU`"'<cite class="citation book cs1 cs1-prop-foreign-lang-source">''Northern Sami'' (in Northern Sami).</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Northern+Sami&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AHelp+talk%3ACitation+Style+1%2FArchive+90" class="Z3988"></span>
{{cite book/new |title=Northern Sami |language=se}}
– this rendering has a category link:
'"`UNIQ--templatestyles-0000004E-QINU`"'<cite class="citation book cs1 cs1-prop-foreign-lang-source">''Northern Sami'' (in Northern Sami).</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Northern+Sami&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AHelp+talk%3ACitation+Style+1%2FArchive+90" class="Z3988"></span>
For a |url=
where the website says thing like "this content is unavailable in your country", how should that be handled by our cite templates? None of the current combinations of |url-status=
and |url-access=
values seem to correctly work for this situation. My workaround is to mark the url as dead with a note. Perhaps a new value for |url-access=
called "geographical" or something could be introduced. Or maybe I'm overlooking the solution. Suggestions?
Jason Quinn (
talk) 06:06, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
|url-access=limited
seems to have pretty broad scope. Could that work for this situation? Agree that the link should not be marked as dead.
Folly Mox (
talk) 13:06, 3 September 2023 (UTC)Hello fellow Wikipedians - Can anyone comment on the proper way to cite publications that are dated as being two or more months? For instance, I would like to use the following as a citation:
https://www.fedbar.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/bookrev-janfeb13-pdf-1.pdf
which is from the January/February 2013 issue of a publication called The Federal Lawyer.
However, I can't figure out how to do this without generating an error. Any insights from anyone?
Thanks KConWiki ( talk) 21:20, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
Lines 478–479 of Module:Citation/CS1 read:
label = mw.ustring.gsub (label, '[“”]', '\"'); label = mw.ustring.gsub (label, '[‘’]', '\'');
and are intended to:
-- replace “” (U+201C & U+201D) with " (typewriter double quote mark) -- replace ‘’ (U+2018 & U+2019) with ' (typewriter single quote mark)
in displaying chapter titles and the like, as far as I can tell.
Could someone explain why this is done, please? 0DF ( talk) 00:50, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
When citing a translation of a foreign work, should one supply |title=original
and |trans-title=translation
or only |title=translation
? --
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (
talk) 20:32, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
|title=translation
-- LCU
ActivelyDisinterested ∆
transmissions∆ °
co-ords° 20:42, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
|trans-title=
if I'm referencing the foreign original and want to give the reader some indication of what the title means.I do like to provide the title of the original if I'm referencing a translated work, but I don't think any of the built in parameters is necessarily fit for this purpose. I've used |type=
to hold this information in the past, but suspected it might be parameter misuse and started just adding "Translation of Non-English Title." after the closing curly brackets but before the closing ref tag.
Folly Mox (
talk) 21:08, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
|type=
is for, adding it after the cite is a better idea. -- LCU
ActivelyDisinterested ∆
transmissions∆ °
co-ords° 21:11, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
|editor=
parameter? or leave them in |translator=
?
Folly Mox (
talk) 21:30, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
|trans-title=
parameter to give them the English version of the title. However, if you read a book in English translation, such as Beauvoir's
The Second Sex, then there's no need to provide the original French title, mostly because it does not help
WP:Verifiability, which is the whole reason we write citations in the first place, and it doesn't help English-speaking readers of Wikipedia, either. If you do wish to provide the original title, note that it won't fit either in parameter |title=
(because param |title=
is already taken by "The Second Sex") nor does it fit in |trans-title=
, because that's *exclusively* for English titles of foreign works. So, where can you put it? The citation templates do not have a dedicated location for the original title of a work in a foreign language that you consulted in English translation, however, you could include it in |orig-date=
, which is conceived to contain other information about an edition you did not consult. So, following the Beauvoir example, you could add: |orig-date=1st pub. [[Gallimard]]:1949 ''Le deuxième sexe''
. Hope this helps,
Mathglot (
talk) 06:25, 7 September 2023 (UTC)|others=
it goes. If all it says is "editor", into |editor=
it goes. In the case where the work lists them as both, I tend toward either placing it in both, or if I'm feeling lazy, solely in |editor=
.
Izno (
talk) 20:58, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Most of my content work is in Chinese history, so I'm frequently citing works by Chinese authors. As is well known, in China the family name precedes the personal name, like Qiu Xigui.
When using the |last=
and |first=
parameters as usual, this causes names in citations to display like "Qiu, Xigui". While this isn't exactly wrong, it does look wrong, at least to me and many other people familiar with East Asian name order. Some English language scholars – even in the topic area – do format their bibliographical entries like this, but not as many as those who format names without the extraneous comma; some publications will ALLCAPS the family name for clarity, but I think this is recommended against here.
My usual solution to this is to put the full author name in the |author=
parameter, but then I have to do extra work to get shortened footnotes to work, like |ref={{sfnref|Qiu|1999}}
. Also I suspect this is suboptimal for COinS metadata.
I was thinking a new parameter like |name-separator=none
could be a better solution, but I'm not sure how much work it would take to get it to apply dynamically to whichever contributor field it is supposed to. It would certainly be easy to add to existing citations without fiddling with |ref=
and might benefit data reusers.
I was also wondering if this could be handled with |author1-mask=
, and what the syntax for that would look like. Just the full author name?
What's the recommended practice for this, apart from "don't let it bother you"? Folly Mox ( talk) 20:59, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
|last=
and |first=
confusing, especially when working with a mix of Asian and Western author names. I find it less confusing to use the aliases |surname=
and |given=
. No change in the formatting, but at least the semantics is clear.
Kanguole 22:01, 6 September 2023 (UTC)|author=
to 1) avoid the comma separator issue and 2) to include a logographic form: |author=Qiu Xigui (裘錫圭)
(flipped order also).|name-separator=none
is a solution because such a parameter would apply to all names in the list so a list of mixed Asian and western names would result in malformed western names. Such mixed lists are quite common, especially in STEM topics.|author-mask=
could be something like this:
{{cite book |title=Title |surname=Qiu |given=Xigui |author-mask=Qiu Xigui (裘錫圭)}}
'"`UNIQ--templatestyles-00000053-QINU`"'<cite id="CITEREFQiu" class="citation book cs1">Qiu Xigui (裘錫圭). ''Title''.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Title&rft.aulast=Qiu&rft.aufirst=Xigui&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AHelp+talk%3ACitation+Style+1%2FArchive+90" class="Z3988"></span>
|asian-surnamen=
, |asian-givenn=
, and |asian-authorn=
parameters that would be rendered without the comma. I haven't given any thought to how this might be implemented. I suppose that in theory, when all three are present, |asian-authorn=
would hold the author name in logogram form so cs1|2 could build an internal |author-mask=
as shown above.|name-separator=
was to have it be a group of parameters (|editor2-name-separator=
etc.) to avoid the issue you mention. Apologies I failed to clarify that in the original post.It is true that it's usually not possible to reconstruct the Chinese original from a pinyin transliteration, which is a lossy conversion. For this specific case we have an article on the individual so it's not necessary per MOS, but often it is important to include the actual words alongside transliterations, which I've also seen as |last=Qiu 裘
|first=Xigui 錫圭
. It sounds like the |-mask=
series of parameters is the easiest way to implement what I'm looking for without messing with the underlying metadata.
Folly Mox (
talk) 22:31, 6 September 2023 (UTC)|author=
is because I never know which name is given and which is family, with the large number of Americanized East-Asian names being in the same order as other American names typically are.
Izno (
talk) 20:55, 8 September 2023 (UTC)in
Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration/sandbox, emoji_t
has been updated to unicode v15.1 Newly added unicode code points are:
— Trappist the monk ( talk) 18:12, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
Are there guidelines regarding consistency of US state names used in |location=
parameter? In
Philippines, it previously used US state abbreviations for all its sources (example: |location=Berkeley, CA
), but an editor several months ago changed most of them to avoid abbreviating the state names (|location=Berkeley, Calif.
). What is the recommended format? Should I restore all state abbreviations or should I use their full names (|location=Berkeley, California
)?
Sanglahi86 (
talk) 02:12, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
"|language=ga" resolves as "in Ga". is that a bug, or an unwillingness to decide on the " gaelic"/" Irish language" debate? - Bogger ( talk) 16:02, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
|language=Irish
; |language=Gaelic
is accepted but is not recognized:
|language=ga
that are supposed to represent the Ga language? The
Ga language article doesn't use it.
GoingBatty (
talk) 02:24, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
|language=gaa
:
{{cite AV media |title=title |language=gaa}}
→ title (in Ga).gl
. Not surprised that there aren't many Ga-language sources.|language=
documentation prefers language tags over language names, it occurs to me that
Module:Citation/CS1 should presume that the value assigned to |language=
is a language tag and not a two-character language name. So, I've switched the order of evaluation so that the module first assumes that |language=
holds a tag and only when that fails, assume that |language=
holds a language name:Wikitext | {{cite book
|
---|---|
Live | Title (in Irish). |
Sandbox | Title (in Irish). |
Wikitext | {{cite book
|
---|---|
Live | Title (in Hiri Motu). |
Sandbox | Title (in Hiri Motu). |
{{cite book |title=Title |language=gaa}}
→ Title (in Ga).Hi, I can't understand why language=de
doesn't work in "
Ça plane pour moi" (note 32, "Offiziellecharts.de – Plastic Bertrand – Ça plane pour moi". GfK Entertainment charts. Retrieved 15 February 2021).--
Carnby (
talk) 20:08, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
Given the fact that sometimes Internet Archive will remove the archives of a webpage, amd that the whole Internet Archive enterprise may be in legal jeopardy, I was hoping it would be possible to add a second webarchive parameter. When I am creating a reference, I don't mind going to the trouble of creating an archive.today backup, and it seems good to have some redundancy so that archived links don't just disappear if IA ceases to exist. I think this would also imply a new parameter to track url archive status as well. - Furicorn ( talk) 11:53, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
I have a few questions about the templates, I would love to add these clarifications to the table, as well as to the text of the individual templates, as I can't imagine I'm the only one with these kinds of questions.
Thanks! - Furicorn ( talk) 12:28, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
In the article October 1 (film), I've added DOI parameters for several journal articles, but it's linking the article title to the DOI even though I have not used the url parameter.
For example: {{Cite journal |last=Ezepue |first=Ezinne Michaelia |last2=Nwafor |first2=Chidera G. |date=July-September 2023 |title=''October 1'': Metaphorizing Nigeria's Collective Trauma of Colonization |journal=[[SAGE Open]] |doi=10.1177/21582440231197271 |doi-access=free}}
displays as:
Ezepue, Ezinne Michaelia; Nwafor, Chidera G. (July–September 2023).
"October 1: Metaphorizing Nigeria's Collective Trauma of Colonization".
SAGE Open.
doi:
10.1177/21582440231197271.{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: date format (
link)
This hasn't happened in the past; was there a change to the template or something? voorts ( talk/ contributions) 14:03, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
|doi=
to link |title=
then:
{{Cite journal |last=Ezepue |first=Ezinne Michaelia |last2=Nwafor |first2=Chidera G. |date=July–September 2023 |title=''October 1'': Metaphorizing Nigeria's Collective Trauma of Colonization |journal=[[SAGE Open]] |doi=10.1177/21582440231197271 |doi-access=free |title-link=none}}
|doi-access=free
is present. —
Jts1882 |
talk 15:32, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
|doi-access=free
where the same behavior was occurring.
voorts (
talk/
contributions) 15:37, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
|title-link=no
(
permalink) and looking for doi
in the wikitext, I find two |doi=
parameters with |doi-access=free
and one |doi=
without. Can you show me the [other] cite in the article without |doi-access=free
where the same behavior was occurring
? I presume that your same behaviormeans title-linked-from-doi.
|title-link=none
when {{
cite journal}}
has a doi but does not have |doi-access=free
is meaningless clutter.|title-link=none
from the cite without |doi-access=free
.
voorts (
talk/
contributions) 16:40, 17 September 2023 (UTC)See this in particular.
The pattern is |volume=\d+ *Suppl\.? *\d+
.
Headbomb {
t ·
c ·
p ·
b} 21:37, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
&rft.part
keyword for journal objects:
&rft.issue
. We could adopt |part=
and |supplement=
(as aliases of each other) and support them with &rft.part
|supplement=
get when when a supplement is not enumerated? (
doi:
10.1016/j.parkreldis.2007.06.003) Are 'special issues' supplements? (
doi:
10.36076/ppj.2013/16/SE217) How do we support that?another alias, |special-issue=
?|part=
or |supplement=
in non-journal citations?|issue=18 Suppl 3
. (They have Issue 11, Issue 11 Supplement 1, Issue 16, Issue 16 Supplement 2, Issue 18, Issue 18 Supplement 3, the rest being regularly numbered issues). For P&RD, it's an unnumbered supplement, so simply |issue=Suppl
(or equivalent). The issue here isn't detecting weird stuff in |issue=
, it's detecting weird stuff in |volume=
.
Headbomb {
t ·
c ·
p ·
b} 01:01, 18 September 2023 (UTC)To deal with the cases in Category:CS1_errors:_PMC, e.g. PMC 10500258. Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 22:04, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
I am planning to convert some citations using {{
cite report}} to {{
cite conference}}. However, I find the format of cite conference
a little confusing and somewhat bloated. As shown in the second citation below, using |title=
, |conference=
, and |publisher=
in cite conference
displays the term "Asia-Pacific Regional Conference on Underwater Cultural Heritage" thrice (although I may be unknowingly misusing the parameters). How should the cite conference
citation be formatted?
{{cite report|type=Conference proceeding |last=Bolunia |first=Mary Jane Louise A. |chapter=Astilleros: the Spanish shipyards of Sorsogon |chapter-url=http://www.themua.org/collections/files/original/34a74c76efdb951655b9bde1213812dc.pdf |title=Proceedings of the 2014 Asia-Pacific Regional Conference on Underwater Cultural Heritage Conference; Session 5: Early Modern Colonialism in the Asia-Pacific Region |url=http://www.themua.org/collections/collections/show/13 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150413233643/http://www.themua.org/collections/files/original/34a74c76efdb951655b9bde1213812dc.pdf |archive-date=April 13, 2015 |access-date=October 26, 2015 |publisher=Asia-Pacific Regional Conference on Underwater Cultural Heritage Planning Committee |page=1 |location=Honolulu, Hawaii |oclc=892536655 |via=The Museum of Underwater Archaeology}}
{{cite conference |last=Bolunia |first=Mary Jane Louise A. |conference=Asia-Pacific Regional Conference on Underwater Cultural Heritage |chapter=Astilleros: the Spanish shipyards of Sorsogon |chapter-url=http://www.themua.org/collections/files/original/34a74c76efdb951655b9bde1213812dc.pdf |title=Proceedings of the 2014 Asia-Pacific Regional Conference on Underwater Cultural Heritage Conference; Session 5: Early Modern Colonialism in the Asia-Pacific Region |url=http://www.themua.org/collections/collections/show/13 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150413233643/http://www.themua.org/collections/files/original/34a74c76efdb951655b9bde1213812dc.pdf |archive-date=April 13, 2015 |access-date=October 26, 2015 |publisher=Asia-Pacific Regional Conference on Underwater Cultural Heritage Planning Committee |page=1 |location=Honolulu, Hawaii |oclc=892536655 |via=The Museum of Underwater Archaeology}}
Sanglahi86 (
talk) 06:46, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
{{cite conference |last=Bolunia |first=Mary Jane Louise A. |conference=Asia-Pacific Regional Conference on Underwater Cultural Heritage |title=Astilleros: the Spanish shipyards of Sorsogon |url=http://www.themua.org/collections/files/original/34a74c76efdb951655b9bde1213812dc.pdf |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150413233643/http://www.themua.org/collections/files/original/34a74c76efdb951655b9bde1213812dc.pdf |archive-date=April 13, 2015 |access-date=October 26, 2015 |page=1 |location=Honolulu, Hawaii |oclc=892536655 |via=The Museum of Underwater Archaeology}}
-- LCU
ActivelyDisinterested ∆
transmissions∆ °
co-ords° 11:27, 20 September 2023 (UTC){{
cite conference}}
should be rewritten (I've been saying that for years now). The purported purpose of {{cite conference}}
is to cite a paper in a proceedings. If one is to believe OCLC, the title of the proceedings is: Proceedings of the 2nd Asia-Pacific Regional Conference on Underwater Cultural Heritage. Googling that, I found an editors list: Hans van Tilburg, Sila Tripati, Veronica Walker, Brian Fahy, Jun Kimura. Elsewhere I found a url for
all of the papers for the conference but I didn't find consistent publication data; some sites say the publisher is the conference organizing committee, another names The Museum of Underwater Archaeology. The online version of the cited paper itself does not indicate that it was presented at a conference and in fact, does not mention any conference or proceedings.{{
cite report}}
to {{
cite web}}
:
{{cite web |last=Bolunia |first=Mary Jane Louise A. |title=''Astilleros'': the Spanish shipyards of Sorsogon |website=The Museum of Underwater Archaeology |url=http://www.themua.org/collections/files/original/34a74c76efdb951655b9bde1213812dc.pdf |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150413233643/http://www.themua.org/collections/files/original/34a74c76efdb951655b9bde1213812dc.pdf |archive-date=April 13, 2015 |access-date=October 26, 2015 |page=1}}
{{cite conference}}
might be usable, if not, stick to {{
cite web}}
;
WP:SAYWHEREYOUREADIT.|conference=Asia-Pacific Regional Conference on Underwater Cultural Heritage
, |book-title=Proceedings of the 2014 Asia-Pacific Regional Conference on Underwater Cultural Heritage Conference
and |title=Astilleros: the Spanish shipyards of Sorsogon
. --
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (
talk) 15:52, 20 September 2023 (UTC)I'm trying to cite a chapter in
a book that doesn't have a primary author, but rather three editors and then contributors for each chapter. When I try to use |contributor-last=
, it throws an error and does not display the contributor name:
[1]
Switching to |author-last=
fixes this:
[2]
Is this a case of the error correctly pointing me to the appropriate way to format this information? Or is it leading me to incorrectly document that the chapter's author was the main author of the book (in which case we would need to fix CS1/error detection to permit citing contributors in books without a primary author)?
References
{{
cite book}}
: |contributor=
requires |author=
(
help); |contributor=
requires |contribution=
(
help)
{{u| Sdkb}} talk 05:44, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
|author=
/|last=
is used for the author of a chapter in a volume edited by |editor=
.|contributor=
is used more when there isn’t an editor of a book; rather the book has an author, but that author did not write one section (like an introduction). See the (help) link in the error message.|doi=10.4324/9781315870663
would also be nice and you probably don’t need to link the publisher; Routledge is pretty well known.
Umimmak (
talk) 06:11, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Template:Creative Commons text attribution notice is designed to go inside <ref> tags. This is impossible to do in Visual Editor (see background info here). In the free content movement, we spend a lot of energy trying to get institutions to release content under Wikipedia-compatible licenses, but within Wikipedia re-use of that content is actually hampered by technical limitations such as this one.
A good solution could be to add the five Creative Commons parameters to Template:Cite. These templates could then be displayed as options within the Add Citation dialog box in Visual Editor. If these parameters were made available as part of the citation itself, contributors would not have to insert Template:Creative Commons text attribution notice. What do you all think? Clayoquot ( talk | contribs) 21:57, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
Kalambo structure is currently on the main page (In the news) and is returning the error "Check |s2cid= value". Not the best look for Wikipedia. I checked and double-checked the value (262084949) and it is correct. Help:CS1_errors#bad_s2cid says "if the value is correct and larger than the currently configured limit of 262000000, please report this at Help talk:Citation Style 1, so that the limit can be updated." Here I am. Viriditas ( talk) 08:33, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
I suggested new TemplateData param property "require" or "depend on" to indicate that a param requires another (or depends on) other param. We need this property for citation params for example:
please disscus this in phab:T347377. حبيشان ( talk) 07:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
Hello, another generic title that could do with flagging up is "Wayback Machine has not archived that URL". Keith D ( talk) 11:38, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
Many books now, especially from academic presses, have a product page with a table of contents, some positive review excerpts, a brief author bio, and a link to purchase the book. Sometimes – but more often not – these pages have a DOI pointing to them. In general I don't like having these pages as the "url" parameter for a book, linked to the book title, because readers trying to verify citations cannot easily look at the text there and are likely to be at least slightly misled by the unadorned link. However, putting a url-access=subscription red lock icon by such links also doesn't quite seem appropriate. Would it be helpful for the citation templates to add some kind of "product page" parameter for such links? I'm not sure what the best way to render them would be. – jacobolus (t) 15:40, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
|url-access=subscription
doesn't seem appropriate for this sort of URL, but maybe it actually is and I just feel wrong about it.I don't think the solution is a |product-url=
parameter, if that's what's being suggested. It would be mildly helpful for distinguishing without clickthrough whether a URL pointed to the source text or not, but would overwhelmingly end up being used for promotion, in my opinion.
Folly Mox (
talk) 17:06, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
|id=[http://example.com Publisher's site]
, but this seems like an abuse of the ID parameter. I don't really understand why links explicitly designated as pointing at a publisher's page would be more "used for promotion" than links on the book title, links from a DOI, etc. I guess my key point is that these are links about the book rather than containing the book. Perhaps instead of url-access=subscription
there should be a synonym like url-access=purchase
(instead of a lock icon it could perhaps use a $ icon). –
jacobolus
(t) 17:25, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
|product-url=
, I am imagining well-meaning editors adding |product-url=
values to citations where the full text is already available somewhere, as well as links to Amazon pages. I'd be happy to hear what others think about these things.
Folly Mox (
talk) 18:55, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
|type=publisher landing page
is appropriate parameter usage, but might get the same point across without updating the templates.
Folly Mox (
talk) 21:07, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
|url-access=subscription
? It is possible to have subscription access to books. (For instance my employer supplies me with a subscription to many Springer books.) That said, I tend to avoid using publisher urls in the |url=
parameter, except for open-access books, mostly per
WP:ELNO #5 as a page "that primarily exists to sell products or services". If it has a doi that can be included instead. —
David Eppstein (
talk) 19:24, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
|access-date=
, |archive-url=
, and |archive-date=
. Some (like OUP) certainly have an equivalent DOI, but it was not added. Most if not all of the academic publishers support a subscription model, so even a link to a landing page will lead to the full text for subscribers. In these cases, they'll almost certainly have a DOI as well, which are presumed to be subscription only, and if we're using DOI in place of equivalent URLs, the |url-access=subscription
parameter will be both unnecessary and a template error. For academic publishers with subscription models but no DOI schema (I'm unaware of any), the landing page with |url-access=subscription
seems appropriate. Lastly, the commercial publishers. I don't think a publisher like Random House Penguin or WW Norton offers a subscription to read their content, so works must be independently purchased. I don't think landing pages of this genre are helpful outside of verifying the work exists. I might be all the way wrong about these business models.
Folly Mox (
talk) 02:56, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
For academic publishers with subscription models but no DOI schema (I'm unaware of any), the landing page with url-access=subscription seems appropriate.I also added a couple of these, specifically to the links https://read.dukeupress.edu/hope/issue/24/Supplement (Duke) and https://muse.jhu.edu/book/17623 (UMichigan Press via a page at JHU Press) for which I could not find DOIs. – jacobolus (t) 02:59, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
Some publishers such as Springer Nature offer a type of URL that can be used as the URL and gives full open access to an otherwise paywalled source. It would be useful if there were an option in addition to 'registration', 'subscription' or 'limited', such as open (or equivalent name) that displayed a green padlock to make it clear these URL links do give the reader full access to the publication? Or should I use the 'limited' option?
Example, this paper is normally paywalled, however this version of the link attained via Wikipedia Library be used as the citation URL and gives the reader full access.The grey 'limited' padlock is described for "free access is subject to limited trial and a subscription is normally required", should this be used instead? Zenomonoz ( talk) 04:33, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
We support a reasonable amount of sharing of content by authors, subscribers and authorised users (“Users”), for small-scale personal, non-commercial use provided that you maintain all copyright and other proprietary notices. ... Users and the recipients of the shareable link, may not 1. use the SharedIt service or shareable links for the purpose of providing other users with access to content on a regular or large scale basis or as a means to circumvent access control; ... We are not obligated to publish any information or content and may remove it and the shareable links or any SharedIt features or functionality at our sole discretion, at any time with or without notice. We may revoke this licence to you at any time and remove access to any copies of the shared content or shared links which have been saved.... If you intend to distribute our content to a wider audience on a regular basis or in any other manner not expressly permitted by these Sharing Terms of Use please contact us at sharedit@springernature.com.
Several DOIs can be known to be free from their DOI prefix. While we could autoflag them as free, a better practice, IMO, would be to have
Category: CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (or similar), that would populate when we have a DOI prefix match, and when |doi-access=free
is not set. This way we would have a category against which to run
User:Citation bot (similar to
Category:CS1 errors: DOI, or
Category:CS1 maint: PMC format). Because right now, we need to collect all articles with DOI match (about 30,000 articles), but have no good way of excluding articles where their free DOIs have already been flagged, leading to a lot of wasted bot processing time.
10\.(1100|1155|1186|1371|1629|1989|1999|2147|2196|3285|3389|3390|3410|3748|3814|3847|3897|4061|4089|4103|4172|4175|4236|4239|4240|4251|4252|4253|4254|4291|4292|4329|4330|4331|5194|5306|5312|5313|5314|5315|5316|5317|5318|5319|5320|5321|5334|5402|5409|5410|5411|5412|5492|5493|5494|5495|5496|5497|5498|5499|5500|5501|5527|5528|5662|6064|6219|7167|7217|7287|7482|7490|7554|7717|7766|11131|11569|11647|11648|12688|12703|12715|12998|13105|14293|14303|15215|15412|15560|16995|17645|19080|19173|20944|21037|21468|21767|22261|22459|24105|24196|24966|26775|30845|32545|35711|35712|35713|35995|36648|37126|37532|37871|47128|47622|47959|52437|52975|53288|54081|54947|55667|55914|57009|58647|59081)
will match the currently known garanteed-to-be-free DOI prefixes. The list could be expanded as more are discovered (and likely externalized for ease of maintenance). Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 04:53, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
{{cite book/new |title=Title |doi=10.1100/sommat}}
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (
link){{cite book/new |title=Title |doi=10.1100/sommat |doi-access=free}}
I dunno if it's worth it, but I was wondering if it's worth mentioning in the 'format' section any relevant policies related to ISBN and ISSN numbers, where the journal or book cited may be in ebook, hardcover, or paperback form and each having a different ISSN or ISBN. Sort of along the lines of why locations are often cited, each location has a slightly different edition and ISSN/ISBN in many cases and thus providing the location helps to find the exact version of whatever. Similarly, I know I was a bit confused by what to do with chapter DOIs. Apparently, a variable for this was proposed back in 2020 and then scrapped ( Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 70#Auto-linking titles with free DOIs under sub-section 'Auto-linking for book chapters'). I'm assuming, not sure if this is correct or not, that in such cases the current protocol is to use the 'cite chapter' tag and then cite the corresponding chapter DOI and maybe it might be worth mentioning it under the chapter sections of this document? And I'm also not sure I have the current consensus correct either, but, was wondering if for future ease of newer editors and for the ease of users, if updating this document to include sections about what to do in such instances may be worth explicitly mentioning. Thanks for reading. Thoughts? KnowTheManyHistories ( talk) 01:12, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
|format=
is for the kind of file at the other end of a URL. It might as well be named |url-file-format=
. If you are using it in some other way, that's incorrect.
Izno (
talk) 20:33, 29 September 2023 (UTC){{cite web |title=W.Media| url=https://w.media}}
produces:
It currently says "Check |url= value" but the link https://w.media works. The warning comes for a single-letter second level domain. Originally reported at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#.Media web sites confusing the cite web template. PrimeHunter ( talk) 20:58, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
{{cite web/new |title=W.Media| url=https://w.media}}
This
edit request to
Template:Cite map has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Want to add TemplateData for Cite map so that it can work with ProveIt, using Cite book page as an example
Change from: <includeonly>{{#invoke:Citation/CS1 | citation |CitationClass=map }}</includeonly><noinclude> {{documentation}} </noinclude>
to
<includeonly>{{#invoke:Citation/CS1 | citation |CitationClass=map }}</includeonly><noinclude> {{documentation}} {{collapse top|TemplateData}} {{Cite map/TemplateData}} {{collapse bottom}} </noinclude> Furicorn ( talk) 20:52, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
{{
cite map}}
in order to add TemplateData. You can add TemplateData to
Template:Cite map/doc. Most cs1|2 templates do not have separate TemplateData subpages.The latest dump of redlinked (non-existent) categories at Special:WantedCategories featured four maintenance categories for Serbian-language sourcing: both Category:CS1 srpski (latinica)-language sources (sr-el) and Category:CS1 Serbian (Latin script)-language sources (sr-latn) for Serbian-Latin, based solely on whether a citation template's language= field was using the two-letter el or four-letter latn code, and both Category:CS1 српски (ћирилица)-language sources (sr-ec) and Category:CS1 Serbian (Cyrillic script)-language sources (sr-cyrl) for Serbian-Cyrillic, based solely on ec vs. cyrl in the same context.
Now, obviously we don't need two different categories for the same thing just because of non-semantic coding differences, so I've moved all the existing ec's and el's over to cyrl's and latn's — but since this is a problem that's likely to recur and need ongoing cleanup of non-empty categoryredirects, I wanted to ask if there's any way that ec and el can just be coded to automatically use the cyrl and latn categories instead of needing manual changeovers. Bearcat ( talk) 15:22, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
sr-el
and sr-ec
MediaWiki language tags. When these are encountered, the module switches to use IETF language tags sr-latn
and sr-cyrl
(which MediaWiki also recognizes as a result of
phab:T117845) and adds the article to
Category:CS1 maint: unrecognized language. I don't see a need for a special category just for these two language tags.
{{cite book/new |title=Title |language=sr-el}}
{{cite book/new |title=Title |language=sr-ec}}
{{cite book/new |title=Title |language=sr-latn}}
{{cite book/new |title=Title |language=sr-Cyrl}}
{{cite book/new |title=Title |language=sr}}
I don't think this has been discussed before. There is a clear path to the indication that 'url' is dead and has been archived, but this does not appear to be available for 'chapter-url'. I'm looking at a citation now where this is the case; this is the first citation (Cañas et al.) of CmapTools; there is an available archive.org link, but there is no in-template way to use this like one would do so for the 'URL' parameter. One could use some cludge based on {{ Webarchive}}, or simply replace the dead chapter-url with the archive.org url, but I'm looking for a more elegant method than either of those. Thoughts? --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me) 01:41, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
|url=
parameter would. See
Special:Diff/1178657342.
Folly Mox (
talk) 01:55, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
Currently, {{ Cite AV media}} automatically italicizes the source title. While italics are appropriate for films and television programs, it is not appropriate for online videos posted on YouTube, Vimeo, etc. Please alter the template's code so that when an online video is being cited, no italics are applied and the source title is enclosed in quotation marks, per MOS:MINORWORK. This can be done in two ways:
|via=
or |publisher=
is set to YouTube
, [[YouTube]]
, Vimeo
, etc. However, this approach could lead to frequent edit requests to add smaller video-hosting sites to the list of exemptions.|type=
is not set to motion picture
, television program
, documentary
, or television special
. This could theoretically cause false positives, but I don't foresee that happening very often.Either way, this issue needs to be fixed, because many articles are incorrectly italicizing YouTube videos. InfiniteNexus ( talk) 23:25, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
|title=
verbatim, without any imposed styling. --
Michael Bednarek (
talk) 15:10, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
{{
noitalic}}
may not be used in |title=
because it will corrupt the metadata by dragging in a bunch of non-title stuff:
{{cite av media |title={{noitalic|Title}}}}
{{
cite AV media}}
: templatestyles stripmarker in |title=
at position 1 (
help)
'"`UNIQ--templatestyles-000000AE-QINU`"'<cite class="citation audio-visual cs1">'''"`UNIQ--templatestyles-000000AD-QINU`"'<span class="noitalic">Title</span>''.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=unknown&rft.btitle=%7F%27%22%60UNIQ--templatestyles-000000AD-QINU%60%22%27%7F%3Cspan+class%3D%22noitalic%22%3ETitle%3C%2Fspan%3E&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AHelp+talk%3ACitation+Style+1%2FArchive+90" class="Z3988"></span> <span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">{{[[Template:cite AV media|cite AV media]]}}</code>: </span><span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment">templatestyles stripmarker in <code class="cs1-code">|title=</code> at position 1 ([[Help:CS1 errors#invisible_char|help]])</span>
rft.btitle=
in that mess.{{cite av media |title=''"Title"''}}
'"`UNIQ--templatestyles-000000B2-QINU`"'<cite class="citation audio-visual cs1">''<span></span>''"Title"''<span></span>''.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=unknown&rft.btitle=%22Title%22&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AHelp+talk%3ACitation+Style+1%2FArchive+90" class="Z3988"></span>
Does no one else have an idea on how to fix this? InfiniteNexus ( talk) 02:50, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
An OCLC value for one of the citations in Genetic history of the African diaspora is correct and greater than 10005000000. Achmad Rachmani ( talk) 12:19, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
I seem to remember somewhere seeing a description of stripping all the extraneous
URL query parameters from a Google books url for use in param |url=
in a {{
cite book}} citation, but I don't see it described either at
Template:Cite book/doc or at
Wikipedia:Citing sources#Linking to Google Books pages. I already do this as a matter of course, but I need the link for an edit summary to explain what I'm doing and why. Anybody remember where it is? When found, I'll link it from both of those doc pages. Thanks,
Mathglot (
talk) 22:53, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
User:AManWithNoPlan has developed experience with GB URLs and Citation bot. One way is run the bot on the page and it will normalize it for you. -- Green C 00:07, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
The Category:CS1 maint: url-status gives false positives for {{ cite Q}} citations. In this case, the |url-status parameter is necessary (unless the source is given with no archival copy), but the |archive-url= normally should be absent from Wikipedia. Instead, the d:Property:P1065 (archive url) should be given in a way that includes a date - Wayback does this in an obvious way; for Archive.today, you need to click on share, select long link, and change http to https. Boud ( talk) 07:34, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
|url-status=live
to every {{
cite q}}
template in the article; even those templates that do no render with |url=
. For example, this template does not render with |url=
:
{{cite Q|Q117768677|url-status=live}}
{{Cite book |author-link1=Elleni Zeleke |author1=Elleni Zeleke |id=
Wikidata
Q117768677 |isbn=978-90-04-41475-4 |language=en |publication-date=2019 |publisher=
Brill Publishers |title=Ethiopia in Theory: Revolution and Knowledge Production, 1964–2016 |url=
https://brill.com/display/title/34474 |url-status=live}}
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link)|url-status=
without |url=
and |archive-url=
is meaningless clutter.In this case, the |url-status parameter is necessary (unless the source is given with no archival copy), but the |archive-url= normally should be absent from Wikipedia.You have not described why you believe that
|url-status=
is necessary. I don't know what you mean by
the |archive-url= normally should be absent from Wikipedia.
|url-status=
in {{cite q}}
is no different from its use in the canonical cs1|2 templates.{{
cite q}}
to support that new property. Mayhaps, someday, these things shall come to pass.|url-status=dead
when |url=
is dead and |archive-url=
is present is pointless clutter. The only time that |url-status=live
should be present is when |url=
is live and |archive-url=
is present.I was creating a citation to a PDF at specific page so I used {{
Cite web}} with the |page=
parameter. I then searched online to see if it's possible to link to a specific PDF page in the URL and the result was to add #page=page number
. I was wondering if this should and can be added to the module to handle automatically or just handled manually?
Gonnym (
talk) 12:54, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
A reference in the article Edward Vernon Arnold is described as "ffhalshs-01929253f". This is utterly unfamiliar to me, but when I look for it I find that other articles too cite sources labelled "ffhalshs-" something. I haven't found this linked to any explanation. Googling "ffhalshs" shows examples of its use, but again no explanation. Is this perhaps a referencing system that never caught on and can now safely be ignored? -- Hoary ( talk) 23:49, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
|id=
field. I also tried to read a bit about the Paippalādaśākhā but it proved ten times more esoteric than even this conversation.
Mr.choppers |
✎ 14:00, 19 October 2023 (UTC)|id={{
HAL|halshs-01929253}}
will give you link in the cite with the format
HAL
halshs-01929253. -- LCU
ActivelyDisinterested ∆
transmissions∆ °
co-ords° 18:33, 19 October 2023 (UTC)While using {{ cite book}}, I have just realised that the ISBN parameter creates a link to ISBN (identifier), which is actually a redirect "from currently unnecessary disambiguation" to ISBN. Is it really anticipated that the current usage of ISBN will be usurped to such an extent that the book identifier ISBN will no longer be the principle meaning? It seems very unlikely.
I suggest that cite book (and any similar templates) be changed to use the direct link; it will simplify at least 1.6m pages, and save a kg or two of carbon emissions by reducing processing. If the meaning of ISBN does change, it can always be updated again (as the redirect would have to be in the same situation). Since cite book is not normally subst:ed, any change will update references on their next use. -- Verbarson talk edits 12:39, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
User:Srich32977 has been systematically removing |via=
and |subscription=
from thousands of citations that have dead links, focusing on HighBeam. For example
Special:Diff/1180668590/1180833359. Their rationale is best explained here
Special:Diff/1180822274/1180830474, they are "cleaning up clutter". Myself and a number of other editors have raised questions on their talk page. What do you think? Bigger picture, if this is our intention, should we remove these parameters from all citations with dead links ie. creating tracking categories, enlisting bots and showing warning/maintenance messages. --
Green
C 04:22, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
|via=
. That's all it says, nothing about removing when the link is dead.The best we have is an archive copy of the defunct HighBeam url, which is actually an archive of original source.Purportedly an archive of the original source by HighBeam. I simply do not understand the logic here of pruning the information from the citations without pruning the entire thing. It's still through HeadBeam, whether the site is up or not. If we decide that this is the wrong approach, who is going to undo this mass of changes which in the mind of other editors are apparently destroying the citations? I wish Wikipedia had a behavioral guideline that any mass (what I would call semi-automated) changes be discussed first. BOLDness can less to a mess that no one is going to fix. —DIYeditor ( talk) 09:35, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
|subscription=
and |via=
which are still actively being deleted by the user. As for the dead links, as far as I know, the user is no longer removing those, that issue is settled? I can restore, I mean restore |subscription=
and |via=
. What is your opinion about the removal of |subscription=
and |via=
? --
Green
C 18:42, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
|via=
field, agnostic on the rest.
Mr.choppers |
✎ 14:02, 19 October 2023 (UTC)|fix-attempted=yes
set. -- LCU
ActivelyDisinterested ∆
transmissions∆ °
co-ords° 14:42, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
In adding a reference for The Woman in Black (play), I noticed that the author as of today is "Chris Raven," while the author is "Sarah James" in the version archived on the date of publication. For now, I've just cited the former, but I couldn't find any discussions in the archives for whether I should also note the prior (ostensibly original) author.
– spida-tarbell ❀ ( talk) ( contribs) 19:55, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
|url-status=deviated
(we should rename it "drifted" to be more clear, but that is OT). Use the original author name Sarah James, while setting to "deviated" because the live link is different from the archived link (see
Template:Cite_web#URL). A wikicomment outside the boundary of the template explaining why it's deviated would help. --
Green
C 22:52, 22 October 2023 (UTC)Titles for reviews, at least in classics, are usually pro forma repetitions of the publication information. For example, this JRS review of Morstein-Marx's Mass oratory (2004). If you create a citation without the title, CS1 will give a warning:
Mouritsen, H (2005). Journal of Roman Studies. 95: 251–52. doi: 10.1017/S007543580000263X https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-roman-studies/article/abs/r-morsteinmarx-mass-oratory-and-political-power-in-the-late-roman-republic-cambridge-cambridge-university-press-2004-pp-xiv-313-isbn-05218232777-5000/A285ADA462DCE712C47B836720BEA377.
{{ cite journal}}
: Missing or empty|title=
( help)
Somewhat shortened citations for articles are common. Eg in Erich S Gruen's Last generation of the Roman republic (1995):
Gruen 1995 p 197 n 134, citing
Syme, Historia, 4 (1955): 63.Gruen 1995 p 190 n 100, citing
Gabba, Athenaeum, 29 (1951): 262–70.
Is it possible to suppress the missing title warning and generate mark-up (for the 2005 review above) like so?
Mouritsen, H (2005). Journal of Roman Studies. 95: 251–52. doi: 10.1017/S007543580000263X.
I am aware of the template {{ list journal}} but it seems to have no parameters for a specific article or page range. Ifly6 ( talk) 15:47, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
|title=none
{{
cite journal}}
: |url=
missing title (
help)CS1 maint: untitled periodical (
link).
Ifly6 (
talk) 15:57, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
|type=book review
if it's still somehow unclear. I just did a bunch of these at
Charles Hucker and have more waiting at
Talk:Kirsten Seaver if you want to see my (potentially suboptimal) method.
Folly Mox (
talk) 16:10, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
|title=none
.
Ifly6 (
talk) 19:33, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
|author-mask=2
or |display-authors=0
:
{{cite book |last=Gruen |first=Erich S |author-mask=2 |title=Roman politics and the criminal courts, 149–78 BC |publisher=Harvard University Press |year=1968 |isbn=978-0-674-28421-0 |location=Cambridge, MA |doi=10.4159/harvard.9780674284210}}
{{cite book |last=Gruen |first=Erich S |display-authors=0 |title=Roman politics and the criminal courts, 149–78 BC |publisher=Harvard University Press |year=1968 |isbn=978-0-674-28421-0 |location=Cambridge, MA |doi=10.4159/harvard.9780674284210}}
{{
cite journal}}
, |url=
requires |title=
.|title=none
– I use this all the time for book reviews with doi, jstor, or hdl links. But when you give the template a url link, it needs something to link the url to. In this case the error message is for a good reason, that there is no way to incorporate a title-less url link into our current cite journal format, rather than for the more abstract (and false) reason that title-less journal references don't exist. I usually just use |title=Review
. —
David Eppstein (
talk) 20:08, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
Mouritsen, H (2005). Journal of Roman Studies. 95: 251–52. doi: 10.1017/S007543580000263X.Ifly6 ( talk) 20:20, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
|at=
parameter).
Ifly6 (
talk) 02:35, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
I notice that titles that end with a full stop are treated in an unusual way. {{
cite news|title=He Killed The Man from UNCLE.}}
produces the same output as {{
cite news|title=He Killed The Man from UNCLE}}
, i.e., it produces "He Killed The Man from UNCLE". (The terminating full stop is removed from the quote.) But {{
cite news|title=He Killed The Man from U.N.C.L.E.}}
produces a different output than {{
cite news|title=He Killed The Man from U.N.C.L.E}}
; i.e., it produces "He Killed The Man from U.N.C.L.E.". (In this case, the terminating full stop is not removed.)
If I want a full stop to not be removed, what should I do? I notice that {{
cite news|title=He Killed The Man from UNCLE..}}
seems to work, producing "He Killed The Man from UNCLE.". (with one dot inside the quote marks of the output and the other one removed, but that seems semantically incorrect.
The case with three dots seems to get different treatment from the one with two. If there are three dots, as in {{
cite news|title=Once upon a time...}}
, the last one doesn't get removed.
Should the instructions say something about this? For example, the description of the |title=
parameter could say that in most cases, if the title ends with a full stop, the punctuation mark will be removed.
— BarrelProof ( talk) 21:04, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
{{
cite news|title=((He Killed The Man from UNCLE.))}}
generates "He Killed The Man from UNCLE.". per
Help:Citation Style 1#Accept-this-as-written markup. Happy editing!
Could you please consider expanding the checks for bad URLs to also catch hhttp and hhttps? I stumbled across one of these today, and was surprised it didn't have an error message.
{{cite web |title=Title |url=http://foobar.com |website=Good example}}
{{cite web |title=Title |url=http//foobar.com |website=Error displays}}
{{cite web |title=Title |url=hhttp://foobar.com |website=No error displayed}}
If you were to do add these so they are included in Category:CS1 errors: URL, I'll periodically run my bot to fix them. Thanks! GoingBatty ( talk) 00:17, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
Also this:
insource:"%7" insource:/%7[Cc](%20)*(url|archive|title|access|work|website|last|first|author|date|quote|publisher|isbn|editor|agency|location|page|language|trans|type|format|doi|jstor|)/]
(
697)Not all are errors, most are. This is for Cite Web. There are still some arguments missing, I didn't want to overload regex search. -- Green C 18:33, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
|
to be escaped as %7c
?
Folly Mox (
talk) 06:12, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
|last=
and its alias |author=
are not for full lastname-firstname[s] sets. They are the last name (surname, family name), or can be used for an organizational editor (e.g. a committee), or a mononymic author (like Madonna or James I). Putting full "First Last" or "Last, First" human name sets in there is directly polluting (blatantly lying about) the nature of the data in the parameter, and undermines the whole point of providing COinS metadata in the first place. (In particular, we are emitting rft.aulast
metadata for this parameter, which claims that the data in the parameter is the author's last name. When the author only has one name, being mononymic or an organizational entity, this is not misleading, but when it's somethinge like "Chen, Jaime C." it is a patent falsehood, for no defensible reason, and it harms
WP:REUSE of our material as well as parsing, e.g. by bibliographic software, by our more technically/academically inclined readers.)
What we have now in Template:Citation Style documentation/author is:
author: this parameter is used to hold the complete name of a single author (first and last) or to hold the name of a corporate author. This parameter should never hold the names of more than one author.
I sensibly changed this to:
author: this parameter is used to hold the complete name of an organizational author (e.g. a committee). This parameter should never hold the names of more than one author. Use to hold first and last names of an individual author is deprecated.
But I got reverted by Nikkimaria. (Reglardless of the rest of this discussion, "corporate" should be changed, since this doesn't have anything to do with corporations in particular, and people keep mistaking this for an instruction to repeat the |publisher=
as the |author=
, or even put the company name in |author=
instead of in |publisher=
, both of which practices are obviously incorrect; I've had a to fix about a dozen instances of this stuff today alone).
I think this change (or functionally equivalent wording) should be put back in, because it actually reflects best practices, both in theory and in action. The parameters is this template are for rather specialized/specific purposes, and abusing them (out of, frankly, laziness about using multiple parameters properly) does harm to the data they emit, makes for confusing markup for editors, does nothing whatsoever to help readers, and is simply not how these templates in practice are used by the vast majority of our editors. For over a decade, I have been correcting such misuses of these template parameters for full human names. I've done this many thousands of instances (mostly very old ones dating from before the templates were so well-developed, and in some cases injected by tools that have since been re-coded to do better markup, though there is a small handful of editors who manually keep abusing the template parameters out of bad habit), and I've never been reverted on one these corrections, ever, even once. It's time that the documentation made better sense, and stopped including misguiding wording that results in a massive waste of editorial cleanup time.
I have faith that this can be accomplished, since we've made substantial progress already on the confusion between |publisher=
and |work=
(or its aliases like |website=
, |newspaper=
, |magazine=
, etc.). Mike Novikoff and I tried to resolve that issue
back in May of last year only to be reverted by Nikkimaria again, but the wording of the |publisher=
entry at
Template:Citation Style documentation/publisher today now does in fact address the issue very clearly, and I don't see anything at entries like |website=
in
Template:Citation Style documentation/web, or |work=
at
Template:Citation Style documentation/work, that any longer work against this clarity. If we can fix that problem, we can fix this one, too.
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 01:30, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
|first=
|last=
format. There are probably five orders of magnitude of citations using |author=
to hold the name of an author.
Folly Mox (
talk) 01:35, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
|author=
parameter to hold the name of an author? That's silly.
Folly Mox (
talk) 01:45, 26 October 2023 (UTC)are not for full lastname-firstname[s] setshas for a long time been false. And, the text deprecated has a specific meaning in CS1 (that I think you have been educated on elsewhere?).
|first=
and |last=
for persons and that |author=
is generally discouraged. I feel comfortable saying the former, so let's at least say that. I also agree that this should refer to organizational authors instead, and that an example is probably merited. Here is a shot:author: this parameter is used to hold the complete name of a single author (first and last) or to hold the name of an organizational
corporateauthor (e.g. a committee). For a person, you should prefer to use|last=
and|first=
. This parameter should never hold the names of more than one author.
|author=
(we could make up a category for that trivially and it would probably be half the wiki), though no doubt small-ly valuable to move a first name from the last name key in the metadata.
Izno (
talk) 08:58, 27 October 2023 (UTC)As for Folly Mox's "I'm not doing that": We don't need to shape our documentation and templating behavior around a single editor who bucks the flow and refuses to useauthor: this parameter is used to hold the complete name of a single organizational author (e.g. a committee). For a person, prefer
|last=
and|first=
. This parameter should never hold the names of more than one author.
|last=
|first=
. Nor do we need to care about some old-time
WP:LOCALCONSENSUS at a particular article that somehow insisted on "First Last" name order. In both cases, they can just use untemplated citations or just stubbornly abuse template parameters, and someone will clean it up later in the first case, and consensus will change eventually in the latter case. The idea that some handful of editors deciding many years ago to use a name ordering format that doesn't work properly with our modern templating system means that it can never change is a misunderstanding of how
WP:CONSENSUS operates. Consensus changes all the time when given a good reason to do so, and citations that emit proper bibliographic information about author names is a good reason (and there are several others). If we still wanted to enable randomly varying name order on an article-by-article basis, the way to do that would be to add a |name-order=FL
parameter and value for First Last name ordering. But the number of articles that are using First Last order consistently and have a declared consensus to do so, and are actively maintained to keep this order, are a vanishingly small number. What is vastly more common is an article in which a few old citations are in that order and all the rest are not;
WP:CITEVAR instructs us to normalize them to a single, consistent format. The one to choose is obviously the one that matches our current templating best practices with |last[N]=
and |first[N]=
. I do it routinely, and no one ever objects, because editors generally recognize the utility of consistent and metadata-rich citations (versus the rather-less-than-utility of picking a fight to retain some unhelpful citation style that was used in the article 13 years ago, which no one has since obeyed anyway when adding new cites that now dwarf those of the old format [i.e. the alleged consensus for First Last is not real], and which no one actually cares to retain). —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 01:12, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
|authors=
emits no metadata.)
Izno (
talk) 03:19, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
|author=McNab, Janet S.
they are doing it primarily out of a combination of confusion induced by the current poor state of the documentation itself, laziness about using multiple parameters, and dependence on scripts and other tools that are obsolete and doing poor markup as its default or only behavior. There is no site-wide consensus at all that what they are doing is a best practice, or we would find |author=McNab, Janet S.
everywhere and hardly any use of |last=McNab
|first=Janet S.
I really have no idea what is the source of the particular mania, when it comes to citations, for assuming that everything anyone ever wants to do, no matter how daft, is something that we must actively support. There was a lot of that going around in the camp at WT:CITE about a decade ago, but it has largely died out with the disappearance of several particular afficiodos of that strange mindset. And it is strange. We don't entertain it in any other way, and routinely merge away and delete redundant and unhelpful template code, normalize conflicting procedures to a single workflow, close inclarities and loopholes in guidance that were leading to repetitive strife, etc. As I've indicated in related comments over at
WT:CITE, the sotto voce argument here, that the fact that our current template coding that makes use of CITEREF geekery to produce a particular uncommon output, dictates to us forever that that a redundant parameter will be kept and unhelpful use of it permitted until the end of time, is just tail-wagging-the-dog stuff. It is the job of these templates and CITEREF code to make our work easier and produce better and more useful output. It is absolutely not our job to bend over backwards indefinitely and inject confusing code with confusing and polluted output, just because the tools need further improvement to make them more practical. The ultimate solution is to fix the problem, not continue doing
bletcherous and
bagbiting things to work around the problem and avoid fixing it. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 05:57, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
prefer
|last=
|first=
. I do follow best practices when I'm doing content creation work, but usually focus on incremental improvement when doing gnoming work.
Folly Mox (
talk) 08:15, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
|first=
|last=
data entry. But in reality, there is not demand for it at all. These parameters are separte for a reason and emit distinct metadata. When you do |last=Garcia, J. B.
(or |author=Garcia, J. B.
which resolves to the same thing because |author=
is an alias of |last=
), you are producing false and confusing metadata that claims the author's surname (not full name) is "Garcia, J. B." The reason this keeps happening is primarily because our poor documentation wrongly encourages people to do it (the other reasons being "I just can't be arsed to use two parameters" and "I just paste in what this broken old tool from 2009 generates, and I'm not going to use anything newer and more functional, just because"). —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 08:35, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
|authorn=
no longer aliases to |lastn=
, but instead generates an error when they're both included. (As an aside, APA does specify that authors after the first author are presented in "first last" name order, but that's not an argument for anything really, and can be fixed with |author2-mask=
etc if people are concerned about APA style for some reason).
Folly Mox (
talk) 16:57, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
$rft.au
, which I presume holds the full name of an author (examples at
WP:COINS and other sites reinforce this presumption). Is there a reason that the CS templates' |author=
parameter can't be remapped onto this key instead of aliasing |last=
in mapping onto $rft.aulast
? Then people could use the |author=
parameter while still producing clean metadata, unless I'm misunderstanding something.
Folly Mox (
talk) 04:33, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
{{cite book |title=Title |author=Green, EB}}
'"`UNIQ--templatestyles-000000E3-QINU`"'<cite id="CITEREFGreen,_EB" class="citation book cs1">Green, EB. ''Title''.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Title&rft.au=Green%2C+EB&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AHelp+talk%3ACitation+Style+1%2FArchive+90" class="Z3988"></span>
|author=
parameter does produce correct metadata, which isn't the impression I came away with from reading SMcCandlish's concerns in this thread.
Folly Mox (
talk) 15:54, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
|last=
):
{{cite book |title=Title |last=Green, EB}}
'"`UNIQ--templatestyles-000000E7-QINU`"'<cite id="CITEREFGreen,_EB" class="citation book cs1">Green, EB. ''Title''.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Title&rft.au=Green%2C+EB&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AHelp+talk%3ACitation+Style+1%2FArchive+90" class="Z3988"></span>
rft.aulast=
and rft.aufirst=
if there isn't a |first=
or |first1=
. rft.aulast=
and rft.aufirst=
are only used by the first author; all other |lastn=
/ |firstn=
pairs are individually concatenated, <last><comma><space><first>, and assigned to individual rft.au=
keys.a few for this change. The original documentation has a longstanding community consensus.👻 Isaidnoway (talk) 01:17, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
|last=
and |first=
parameters, there would be no issue. I've done this before as cleanup, and nobody has complained.
Rjjiii (
talk) 02:22, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
preferthe use of
|last=
|first=
, based on "a few for this change", there is now a stated preference there for |last=
|first=
, that wasn't previously there in the original language. That is indeed instruction creep, because of a stated preference. And since the change has already been implemented, what is left to discuss, the new guidance has already been decided by a "select few".
Isaidnoway
(talk) 04:48, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
|author=Smith, James B.
is very small, and their continued impact on the formatting of our citaions is smaller still. I do a lot of cite cleanup, and this is decreasingly a type that I need to do (and it's almost always in material that was added many years ago, or was done by an anon or noob who has not read the template documentation and is doing other bad-idea things in the same cite). —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 05:28, 30 October 2023 (UTC)|first=Firstname
|last=Lastname
is preferable over doing |author=Firstname Lastname
or |author=Lastname, Firstname
if I didn't actually agree with that (especially when I'm the one who opened this thread about asking us to do this in first place)? Why are you asking such a strange question and acting as if I've somehow been hiding my position on the matter, when the heading of this thread says it all? —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 10:29, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
|author=
parameter does produce correct metadata, which isn't the impression I came away with from reading SMcCandlish's concerns in this thread.
Isaidnoway
(talk) 07:42, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
|author=Maria Garcia
or |author=Garcia, Maria
has gotten to be less poor than I thought (and mea culpa for not checking in rendered browser source first to see what it's doing today), but it is still inferior to that of |last=Garcia
|first=Maria
. The first pair of cases treat the entire name as if it's a
mononym, which it is not: rft.au=Maria+Garcia
or rft.au=Garcia%2C+Maria
(%2C
is the comma); the latter case properly separates the two name parts: rft.aulast=Garcia&rft.aufirst=Maria
. They are not equivalent output. And the |author=Garcia, Maria
case (rft.au=Garcia%2C+Maria
) is worst of all, for wrongly stating that the comma is part of the name string, when it is a separator between discrete pieces of metadata; this is a
separation of content and presentation failure, and does in fact amount to polluted/invalid/false/counterfactual/whatever-critical-label-you-prefer metadata, which has been my main concern all along. So, as far as I'm concerned we should clarify further that if you insist on using |author=
for a full human name for some reason (a valid one might be a full name that is not a first-last pair, like an Icelandic or Mongolian patronymic) that it is never for "Lastname, Firstname" patterns. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 10:29, 30 October 2023 (UTC)this parameter [author] is used to hold the the complete name (first and last) of a single person, so apparently it is still an acceptable use of the parameter. I will remember that the instruction creep was a result of a select few. Have a safe and Happy Halloween my friend. ✦•┈๑⋅⋯ 👻 ⋯⋅๑┈•✦ Isaidnoway (talk) 22:29, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
|lastn=
and |firstn=
; |authorn=
is 'generally discouraged' (with exceptions);|author=
for corporate authors|authorn=
no longer 'generally discouraged'|author=
for organizational authors|author=
for some name styles removed; edit summary says per Talk, perhaps that discussion is Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 6 § COinS: surname? first?
|authorn=
parameter{{
Citation Style documentation/author}}
:
|author=
; includes recommendation to use |last=
for Asian or corporate names|author=
mentioned as an alias|last=
for Asian names removed|author=
gets its own definition|lastn=
and |firstn=
explicitly preferred over |authorn=
|lastn=
and |firstn=
is nothing new and that the preference has existed for a rather long time.Thought I'd mention Chinese names here. Chinese name order is usually Surname first, followed by 2 personal names - eg the (fictional) Fu Ling Yu would be a a girl born to the Fu family. The fun comes when she is listed in Western sources. She might be listed in her natural order as "Fu Ling Yu" or more helpfully as "Fu Ling-Yu" (the hyphen is nearly always between the personal parts of the name, leaving the surname separate). Or it might be re-arranged as "Fu, Ling Yu", "Ling Yu Fu" or "Ling-Yu Fu". Sometimes a helpful sole mis-translates "Ling Yu Fu" a second time into "Yu Fu Ling". Which is a long-winded way to say that sometimes we do not know which part is the surname. In which case we cannot use |first=
and |last=
but have to fall back on |author=
. Although I vastly prefer using |first=
and |last=
when they are known. There are probably other languages with similar issues. If I saw a name in an Arabic source I would have little confidence in choosing which is their surname.
Stepho
talk 05:04, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
|author=Fu Ling Yu
would be reasonable, just as it is reasonable for |author=Pliny the Elder
. I don't think anyone's arguing to get rid of |author=
. Instances where we just don't have a way of knowing are actually pretty rare. If it is already known or easily find-out-able by Googling for the author, then |last=Fu
|
. Same as any journal publisher would do. It is not up to us (or, from journal editors' perspective, them) to try to solve the cultural name-order preferences matter that some people somewhere might care about while others would not. It's sufficient for our citation needs that a reader understand that |last=Fu
is the family name; the same author in different publications (or even different journal databases listing the exact same publication) might be rendered |last=Fu
|first=L. Y.
or awful Vancouver style |vauthors=Fu LY
, or in the confusing style someone else mentioned where only the first author is given surname-first, then something like "Smith, C. B.; L. Y. Fu; H. D. Jones". And we don't really have any control over that, or need to care about it. Nor about the fact that the same author might be "Ling Yu Fu" or "Ling-yu Fu" on a book they published in English, but be their native-language characters for "Fu Ling Yu" on the Chinese edition of the same book. It just doesn't have any implications for how we cite a source at en.wikipedia. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 06:55, 29 October 2023 (UTC)|author=
parameter when I'm citing works by Chinese authors, but if I find them in |last=
|first=
, I no longer recast them into |author=
and have started using |author-mask=
instead to fix the display of their names.
Folly Mox (
talk) 07:50, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
gaining popularityother than I see it more often than I used to, including recently in a whole chapter of a book rather than just in the credits of a paper.I haven't done any sort of empirical sampling, but in general the sort of sources I'm looking at these days are newer than the ones I was looking at decades ago in my academic days.My communication here was pretty unclear, and appears to have been written in the middle of the night, but this is a practice I don't see frequently in citations: it's usually the credits at the head / cover sheet of a published article. I don't know of any citation style guide that recommends this, and my vague impression is that it's an authorial or publisher choice. Folly Mox ( talk) 11:31, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
|last=Li
|first=Cheng Po
(perhaps with a mask if you really want to mess around with it). Unless someone has gone out of their way to prevent the "Li, Chen Po" rendering, the reader will get that. Essentially the same with |vauthors=
; they're going to get "Li CP" and not be confused. In order to use a smallcaps "convention" (I don't agree with applying that term to things that are not broadly conventionalized/standardized) we would already have to know what the family name is anyway. And the purpose of our citations is not "making authors, or some prescriptive sliver of our readers, especially pleased about how this name is rendered". It is only helping people find sources to verify our content, and "Li, Chen Po" does that just as well as "Li Chen Po". Another issue is that this smallcaps thing is a feature of a handful of citation styles, and not permitted in other citation styles, so we could never actually enforce it as a norm site-wide, even if we built it into CS1 (it's not required to use CS1, and editors can use, and at a particular article effectively enforce, any consistent citation style they choose. Which is completely daft and we never should have permitted it, but we're stuck with it at least for the forseeable future.) —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 12:02, 30 October 2023 (UTC)|first=
from |last=
per se, so the whole thing (sans any honorifics) should go in |author=
.
Umimmak (
talk) 16:12, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
|author=Full Name Here
is the best way to treat anything like that, then I guess I'll also apply it to the Icelandic patronymic cases. However, I do see various journals treat them as if they're surnames, so I have some lingering doubts. Should we mimic what the journals are doing (people who over-apply "follow the sources" to every imaginable circumstance will probably like that idea), or aim for consistent treatment of a general class of names that aren't really first-last pairs? —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 10:29, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
|last=Karlsson
& |first=Gunnar
), but if the reader is likely to be familiar with Icelandic names to not invert the name in the bibliography and use the given name for the purposes of short citations (on Wikipedia: |author=Gunnar Karlsson
with |ref={{
harvid|Gunnar|YYYY}}
. It would be nice if
Wikipedia:WikiProject Iceland/Style advice were more specific, but I think per
WP:CITEVAR either option could be used on Wikipedia so long as it were consistent in a single article and ideally what a majority of sources in that field used for citing Icelandic names. For that matter it would be nice if
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Burmese) were explicit on citation as well, too.|last=Kiss
and |first=Katalin É.
if they didn't know the specifics of her name but that doesn't mean Wikipedia should do that. Ideally see how the author cites themself in English-language works, or what is common across the most relevant discipline vs one source you happened to have off hand.
Umimmak (
talk) 23:11, 30 October 2023 (UTC)Hello, can you add "Page cannot be found" as part of the title as a generic title. Currently, 17 instances. Keith D ( talk) 17:07, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
I get error messages "cite book CS1 maint multiple names authors list (link)" for citations in which the first argument of the first parameter contains a comma. These are usually aristocrats, for example "|first=Winifred Anne Henrietta Christina Herbert Gardner, Baroness", "|first=Hervey Redmond Morres, Viscount", "|first=Philippe de Courcillon, marquis de", "|first=Patrick Theobald Tower Butler, Baron", "|first1=Desmond, Knight of Glin" etc. Is it incorrect to add such titles to better identify the person? Best regards Johannes Schade ( talk) 15:26, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
|last=Graham
|first=James Angus
|author-link=James Angus Graham, 7th Duke of Montrose
, but of course that only works for someone with an article (or at least a list entry to link to). If one really insisted on including the arguably extraneous titles, I guess try |first=Marquess James
or |first=Dame Anne
or whatever. But other editors might remove the titles later, as not literally/exactly part of the name. I've been writing in a topic area with a lot of sirs and other titles and just omitting them (completely in citations, and in the main prose when the title doesn't seem especially pertinent to why the person is mentioned, e.g. as a book author not as a socio-political figure). No one has seemed to care. But maybe they would if it were some "hot" topic of current British affairs or something. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 17:25, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
|first=
parameter and use |author-mask=
to display the author's full name and title in whatever format feels most appropriate to the context.
Folly Mox (
talk) 18:13, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
{{cite book |last=Sinclair-Smythe |first=Janet Hortence |author-link=Janet Sinclair-Smythe, 2nd Baroness Wolverhampton |author-mask=J. H. Sinclair-Smythe, Baroness |title=Some Title Here |date=2023}}
and it had the expected effect. I don't see a use-case for it though, except where there's a burning desire to precisely match the name-string on the book cover, maybe because there are several authors with the name base name, and our article on the subject is something rather different or the article doesn't exist. Even then, if there's a DOI, ISBN, or other identifier, or even a work title that leads to info on the correct source at the top of a Google/Bing/Yandex search, this seems unnecessary. Is it only to appease editors who really want to add titles onto authors? —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 18:39, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
|first=A |last=B |author-mask=A B (kanji)
). There's the fourth HONORIFIC bent to it, "gotta give due credit to people who are kings and generals" (the latter of which are in this category a lot as well, though not often ranked so highly). There's a fifth "with" case, as in |author-mask=with so-and-so
.removing the titles and stuff to avoid it: User:SMcCandlish, you are cutting off your feet to fit the too-short bed. Don't do that. Fix the bed, or find a different bed provider if the current provider remains insistent on keeping it so rigid. — David Eppstein ( talk) 21:02, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
|author=
to hold the full name of an author? Or using |authors=
to list the authors? I'm not understanding how to hold in the one hand "our downstream metadata reusers require absolutely perfect information no matter the labour cost to Wikipedia editors" and in the other hand "making the author's credited name match up with what's printed in the published source isn't necessary as long as there's enough information to identify the source positively".
Folly Mox (
talk) 03:30, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
making the author's credited name match up with what's printed in the published sourceThat is part of my point as well, if you look at the front matter of these works they'll say the author is "Lord Burghclere" or similar, never the name / title hybrids that are at issue. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆ transmissions∆ ° co-ords° 11:12, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
|last=LAST
|first=GIVEN, Jr./III/etc.
and to avoid the error message I've simply removed the comma in |first=
even though outside of Wikipedia this comma is de rigueur:Strong, E. K., Jr., & Uhrbrock, R. S. (1923). Bibliography on job analysis. In L. Outhwaite (Series Ed.), Personnel Research Series: Vol. 1. Job analysis and the curriculum (pp. 140–146). doi:10.1037/10762-000
— APA
A suffix that is an essential part of the name—like Jr. or a roman numeral— appears after the given name, preceded by a comma.
- Rockefeller, John D., IV
- Rust, Arthur George, Jr.
— MLA
Umimmak ( talk) 23:23, 30 October 2023 (UTC)In an inverted name, however (as in an index; see 16.41), a comma is required before such an element, which comes last. [...]
- Doe, John, Sr.
- Deer, Jason, III
— CMoS
Hello. It appears that the current upper limit for PMID numerical value of 37900000 has been exceeded as I tried to use 37902774 and it was not allowed. Thank you for increasing the MAX integer value for this field. User:Ceyockey ( talk to me) 00:54, 31 October 2023 (UTC)