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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. I can find no way that this list violates WP:IINFO and/or WP:LIST, per the criteria. Furthermore, the list is not automatically WP:TRIVIA just because all of its entries don't have independent articles. Therefore, that argument is invalid. On the other side, the article being mentioned in Time magazine has absolutely no impact on our decision making here, and thereby that is a completely irrelevant argument for keeping this list. The same goes for the amount of page views this article has had, even if that puts the "want" for the information in perspective.

To the point that this list is subjective OR: It isn't, as long as the items in the list are referenced to sources calling the deaths unusual. If there are items in the list where this is not the case, they should be fixed if possible and removed if not. But, improper items on the list is not a good argument for the deletion of the article as a whole. Calling the article "crap", and or stating that there isn't a good enough inclusion criteria yet are also terrible reasons for deletion. The article can always be improved, (this isn't a BLP1E type situation here). And the inclusion criteria can and should be drafted by a community discussion on it, not by deleting the article. If editors feel that this still hasn't been hammered out properly, an RFC should be started and the results of that RFC should be drafted into a firm policy on the matter.

As I see no policy backed justification for the removal of this article, and no harm to the encyclopedia in keeping it, it will remain here and it should not be nominated again unless there is an extreme change in policy (Note: this means that all further nominations should be closed as violations of WP:DELAFD unless there is new or changed policy backing the AFD). Seven nominations is just plain ridiculous, and it's wasting the community's time. — Coffee // have a cup // essay // 10:52, 2 November 2013 (UTC) reply

List of unusual deaths

AfDs for this article:
List of unusual deaths (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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The fifth nomination came in 2013 with a result of "no consensus", and a sixth was closed just a few days later for being too close to the previous one (poor reasoning, IMO). I agree with the rationales of the previous ones: the subject of "unusual death" is inherently subjective. Even if one source calls a death "unusual", by whose standards is it so? This list is also heavily slanted towards recent deaths.

Looking at the "keep"s in the last AFD, I see "It's notable because it gets hit a lot", "It's only getting AFD'd because the nominator doesn't like it", and other invalid "keep" rationales. The subject of "unusual death" may be semi-notable (such as the Darwin Awards), but to have a list of "unusual deaths" is entirely trivial and totally dependent on the whims of journalists and writers. Most of the recent examples don't really seem to even say outright that they're unusual, either. Ten Pound Hammer • ( What did I screw up now?) 17:32, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply

Is this the 7th nomination or the 10th? Thanks. Martinevans123 ( talk) 17:38, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
@ Martinevans123: Seventh. A few prior noms didn't follow naming conventions and had to be moved. Ten Pound Hammer • ( What did I screw up now?) 18:11, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
And how long since the last one? Thanks. Martinevans123 ( talk) 18:42, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
I see now that it was on 25th June. Martinevans123 ( talk) 19:38, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • delete inherently subjective, no actually objective criteria have been able to be agreed upon in more than a year of discussion. fails Wikipedia:LIST#Listed_items and WP:IINFO. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:45, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
    I find your position quite difficult to understand, RedPen. You expend a great deal of effort in curating and improving this article. But you then remove many items on the basis of your own unsupported and subjective analysis. You then berate other (unnamed) editors for not wanting to improve the article. Yet, less than a day later, you vote to delete it (as you did in the RfD before last). Martinevans123 ( talk) 19:46, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
if my analysis to remove is "subjective", please show me how the position to include is any less "subjective"? without objective criteria the list fails basic requirements for a list article - that readers and editors know what should or should not be included. And since my last !vote to delete, there has not been any indications that my concerns raised then are going to be able to be addressed. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:19, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • delete inherently subjective, fails WP:IINFO. While a fascinating list, this is ultimately unworkable, as we don't have reliable sources that make sure determinations based on some sort of reasonable criteria. In addition, many of the entries are about entities for which we don't even have articles, making it WP:TRIVIA. The current rough consensus to simply use the consensus of editors here to determine if a death is usual or not smacks of WP:OR and selection bias of the particular set of editors who happen to haunt this page. It's time for this list to go, or at least to have another discussion about deleting it. I'd be fine with "userfying" to Wikiproject death and let them keep it out of article space.-- Obi-Wan Kenobi ( talk) 18:24, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
    • um, where did you find that "rough consensus"? We've been asking for reliable sources which call the death "unusual" or some similar synonym. And we have for quite some time now - ask TRPoD. Why should all the "entities" have a wikipedia article? Only wiki-notables die in unusual ways? Who are these haunty editors who have a "selection bias"? and what is that bias exactly? Martinevans123 ( talk) 18:41, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Keep There are reliable sources confirming each entry on the list. How many times do we have to go through the same AFD? "List_of_unusual_deaths has been viewed 247375 times in the last 90 days." An article in Time magazine called Wikipedia's 10th Anniversary: 10 Unforgettable Entries mentioned this article as one of those entries. Dream Focus 18:32, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
    • about 1/4 of those "views" are mine removing inappropriately added content.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:37, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
      • Haha, so that's about 687 views a day for you then, RedPen? i.e. about two every minute of every hour of every day, yes? Martinevans123 ( talk) 21:54, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
The number of times it has been viewed is, unfortunately, not a valid reason. If wikipedia had kept Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Playboy_Playmates_with_D-cup_or_larger_breasts then I'm sure that would have been viewed rather frequently as well. Yes, RS confirm each entry, but we don't have RS to confirm the LIST as a whole, nor the inclusion criteria for same. As such, each of these deaths can be reported in the appropriate place, but to bring them all together and say "These are unusual" and "These other deaths are not" smacks of OR, no matter how you slice it.-- Obi-Wan Kenobi ( talk) 18:37, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Hang on, so all WP lists have to have their own WP:RS to confirm their notability? Martinevans123 ( talk) 18:44, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • (edit conflict)Time magazine covered the subject didn't they? A notable magazine with over three million customers buying it each month, talked about the list. Its not original research if the reliable sources call it unusual or a word that means the same. Dream Focus 18:46, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
a reputable source citing Wikipedia WP:CIRCULAR fails basic sourcing requirements and WP:N notability requirements. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:23, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Maybe time to scrap this too, then? Martinevans123 ( talk) 20:45, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Does anybody actually have a link to the Time content about the list? Time apparently didnt care enough about it to keep it from getting hijacked by getty images -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:14, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
So what? Martinevans123 ( talk) 00:29, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
1) so that people can actually verify exactly what Time said and in what context, 2) that even within the scope Time, the comment whatever it was was just filler that they dont care about and not an actual substantive article or recognition, like the Time Person of the Year designation. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:55, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
So when did this vile editorial intrusion start? It must be a right little earner? Anyone might think that Time was a WP:RS!! Martinevans123 ( talk) 01:08, 31 October 2013 (UTC) ("cheers, T-PROD") "Wikipedia has no control over Time Magazine's, post-publication editorial policy and this also has nothing to do with the article subject area." Martinevans123 ( talk) 12:08, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
1) Having the Wikipedia article rather than the topic itself isn't exactly screaming "this is notable".
2) Time has probably run hundreds of articles that feature interviews with run-of-the-mill Americans. They certainly aren't going to get Wikipedia articles.
In short, just because it's covered in a single Time article doesn't mean run out and create an article on it ( WP:ROUTINE) p b p 01:41, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. This is an indiscriminate collection of information that just happens to be well-sourced. The sources, however, frequently do nothing to identify the deaths as unusual, only that they happened. The selection criteria is based entirely on original research, and the scope of the article does nothing but encourage it. A less subjective title and scope would help substantially. NinjaRobotPirate ( talk) 18:45, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
    Anything found on the list that didn't have a reliable source calling it weird, unusual, bizarre, or strange, got deleted already. Dream Focus 18:47, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Yeah, I would have thought so, but I found quite a few just by randomly clicking on the sources and reading them. One was in a "news of the weird" roundup, which makes it debatable. Others were just straight-up news stories that never, to my satisfaction, labeled the death as anything more than simply notable. the case of the poison umbrella, for example, is subjectively unusual, but there's nothing in the article to indicate that it warrants inclusion in the list. If this is what the article looks like after a major cleanup, I think WP:TNT is called for. NinjaRobotPirate ( talk) 18:56, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • I easily fixed the entry with a reference to a Guardian article calling it a strange death. [1] Its very easy to search for reliable sources for these issues, by Google news search for the name of the person something that clarifies its them and not someone else by that name, and then various key words. umbrella strange OR bizarre OR unusual OR unique OR rarely OR weird "Georgi Markov" Simple. Any problem found is thus easily fixed. Dream Focus 19:13, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. Dream Focus 18:52, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Keep It is appropriate to include in Wikipedia a list of "unusual deaths" each of which has references which state that the deaths are by unusual means.Notability of the subject is shown by numerous reliable sources which have compiled lists of unusual deaths (their judgment, not the judgment of Wikipedia editors). This is not original research. Since the persons share the feature of dying unusual deaths, the list is not indiscriminate.This article satisfies notability and verifiability. As Dream Focus pointed out above, this article with 80,000 or so views per month which was praised by Time magazine seems to be encyclopedic. This beats any "IDONTLIKEIT" arguments that say it should be deleted because it's "trivial." Wikipedia "combines many features of general and specialized encyclopedias, almanacs, and gazetteers" (per Wikipedia:Five pillars). Such a list may not be everyone's cup of tea, but they have been included in popular almanacs,and in sites such as Snopes, If someone is looking for information about unusual deaths (man killed by coyotes) they can a referenced list here, in an almanac function. If they want the geographic coordinates of some census entry hamlet with population 12, they can find it here, via the gazetteer function. If they want the bio of some professional athlete who played one game, they can find it here, with Wikipedia functioning as a sports almanac. Edison ( talk) 18:55, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Am I missing something, or does this article lack any reference to "strange", "unusual", "bizarre", or "weird" deaths? The fact that it was included seems to substantiate claims that the selection criteria are based on what editors find unusual, rather than what reliable sources find unusual. NinjaRobotPirate ( talk) 19:02, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • I corrected that and linked to another news article calling it a "strange death" [2] Dream Focus 19:14, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • (EC)References exist which call the murder of Markov with a ricin pellet, likely fired from a compressed air gun in an umbrella "unusual" or "bizarre." "Cold War Radio: The Dangerous History of American Broadcasting.." says "Piccadilly versus the Tramp: The Murder of Georgi Markov In her wildest dreams Agatha Christie couldn't have conjured a more bizarre murder and a more ..." The Seattle Times called it " a famous, bizarre Cold War murder." Vancouver Sun called it "one of Cold War's most bizarre killings. The Guardian called it" " the strange death of Mr Georgi Marko" The juvenile nonfiction book "Strange but true" include the Markov assassination with other deaths the book author considers unusual or strange. The Atlantic included it in a "survey of strange assassination tech." Edison ( talk) 19:32, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • As with most other articles, anyone is free to add whatever they want. It's the responsibility of more experienced editors to assess whether such additions are appropriate and whether they meet any agreed criteria for inclusion. That's essentially how the whole encyclopedia works? Martinevans123 ( talk) 19:49, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
But that's the whole problem. I've looked over the talk page, and the criteria for inclusion has wavered, changed, shifted, and even when people recently proposed items for deletion, there was debate on a per-item basis - so obviously the criteria are not as clear as they should be. The current consensus seems to be "If the experienced editors on the page agree it should be in, let it stay" - but those same editors weren't able to come to a clear consensus in the most recent RFC, at least not by my reading, and ultimately the best, most sane criteria that have been developed is the use of a synonym of the word "unusual" in a single news description of the event. This is all inherently subjective, and not encyclopedic; we have a lot of such lists in wikipedia space and I would support keeping it there, then we would have much less worries about sourcing issues/etc.-- Obi-Wan Kenobi ( talk) 19:54, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Well, I entirely agree with you that criteria for inclusion in this list should not be subjective. I have argued previously for the application of strict statistical rigour - this is currently beyond the resources available to this project, it seems. But the fact that the current criteria might seem to be subjective is not a good reason to delete the entire article. Martinevans123 ( talk) 20:01, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
That is exactly the reason to delete it. Subjective criteria is a terrible reason to have a list, and violates the policy and guidance on such lists. The fact that no-one has been able to come up with strong, objective, usable criteria even after so many years, and the !keep votes are still talking about the fact that Time magazine wrote an article about it illustrate that the whole thing is WP:ILIKEIT. Well, by jones, I like it too, but it should not be in article space.-- Obi-Wan Kenobi ( talk) 20:06, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Notwithstanding the inescapable and inevitable need for the application of some kind of statistical rigour, "at least one WP:RS which describes a death as unusual" seems to me to be quite "strong, objective and usable". Maybe this criterion should be supplemented with others, or else, at least, more rigorously enforced? Martinevans123 ( talk) 21:10, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
What about sources in other languages? Do you think that the only unusual deaths are those reported in the western media, in the english language? Do we need to come up with a consensus-based set of terms in Hindi, Chinese, Swahili, and hundreds of other languages in order to accept "odd" deaths from the 4 corners of the world? "Unusual" is, by it's very nature, SUBJECTIVE - that is, up to the interpretation of the subject - when a newspaper article uses this term, it is itself a OPINION of the writer. Normally, such things are not a big deal, but when the single opinion of a single journalist (or, more specifically, that journalist using one of the words we agree with) is what makes or breaks a death entering this list, you're dealing with completely invented criteria. if there were, OTOH, an international organization devoted to cataloging deaths, and they had an international panel of experts that would choose the top 10 strangest deaths for the year, and many other sources parroted their lists and considered them good --- THEN we could have this list, based on theirs. But we don't.-- Obi-Wan Kenobi ( talk) 21:23, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
I think your point about other language reporting is very valid. And I agree the untutored opinion of a single journalist may be a problem. Martinevans123 ( talk) 11:03, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Keep How many times can/should one article face an AfD? The most recent one wasn't even six months ago! Don't take my word on it, Time magazine has commented on its encyclopedic status. Surely the article isn't perfect and changes to its criteria should be brought to the talk page. LM2000 ( talk) 19:13, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
    Yes, that last one was on 25th June - exactly four months ago. It was opened 4 days after the previous one had been closed. Martinevans123 ( talk) 19:38, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
    "Pitch till you win" is a great carnival game. It should not be a means for deleting encyclopedia articles. Consensus can change over time, but repeated deletion attempts close together in time can seem disruptive. Edison ( talk) 19:47, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - The topic of "Unusual deaths" in mass media may have some merit if properly referenced and kept from being turned into a list, but a completely subjective list is unnecessary. TTN ( talk) 19:33, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
    What makes this list "completely subjective"? Martinevans123 ( talk) 19:39, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Looking at the talk page shows there are basic criteria for inclusion, but that it changes every ten seconds depending on the arguments. There is never going to be a clear-cut "This is what gets included." decision, so completely subjective fits. TTN ( talk) 19:46, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Can you show us one of those "ten second changes"? Why not simply make inclusion criteria clearer? Martinevans123 ( talk) 19:56, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
in over twelve months of work there has been no consensus and not even any progress on what any "clearer" inclusion criteria might be. in fact there have been people fighting over whether or not basic content polices such as WP:OR apply. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:11, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Oh dear, delete articles because there have been "people fighting". I wonder what would be left. Martinevans123 ( talk) 20:14, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
There is a difference between removing something that is volatile because it is a complicated subject compared to removing something that is volatile because there is no clear way to classify inclusion criteria in a manner that is going to satisfy more than one "faction." "Unusual" is subjective, even when editors try to have fairly specific key points for including them. It's a giant back and forth tug of war that is never going to end as people nitpick over fine details and specific deaths over and over. TTN ( talk) 21:06, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • comments Here is a selection of 'unusual' deaths:
    • He remains the only major league baseball player killed by a pitched ball.
    • becoming the first person ever to die in a railway accident
    • trampled by a wild bull.
    • attacked by a monkey
    • a mosquito bite on his face, which he cut while shaving, became seriously infected
    • was punched in the stomach by an amateur boxer.
    • Daghlian died of radiation poisoning,
    • collapsed and died between scenes of a live television play,
  • There is nothing that holds these together. they are all unfortunate, most are accidents, but strange accidents happen all the time, and notions of "first" or "only" are rather ridiculous here - every day there is a "first person of (job X) to die via (reason Y) in (place Z)." But none of those methods of death could be described as incredibly rare; people are killed by thrown objects all the time, railway accidents happen frequently, animals often kill people, wounds get infected, boxers die, and people who work with nuclear materials often get sick and die. There's nothing that holds this list together except some judgement by some wikipedia editor or some tabloid newspaper that this death was "strange" or "unusual". Let Ripley's compile such lists, but it is fundamentally not encyclopedic.-- Obi-Wan Kenobi ( talk) 20:04, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Can you show us your evidence that "strange accidents happen all the time"? Thanks. Martinevans123 ( talk) 20:06, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Can you explain what you mean by "methods of death" and how this might differ from "circumstances of death"? Thanks. Martinevans123 ( talk) 20:08, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Can you explain why you think the existence of this list is based on either "judgement by some wikipedia editor" or "some tabloid newspaper"? Thanks. Martinevans123 ( talk) 20:11, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
did I hear somebody order WP:SOUP?
-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:21, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Did I hear somebody else order the other variety? Martinevans123 ( talk) 20:28, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
see [ [3]]; there were ~120k accidental deaths in 2010, including 16,000 other/nonspecified nontransport accidents and their sequalae. By the criteria of this list, pretty much any accidental death could be framed as unusual - e.g. "He was the first Football captain in the town of X killed by running his car into a tree" or "She was the first grandmother killed by a washing machine in the state of Texas", etc. People can always find a way to make something into a unique story. The distinction between method and circumstances of death is a false one - a death is a death, and I don't agree with "suicide is normal, but suicide on webcam is not" - no, suicide is a tragedy, and the tragedy of suicide plays itself out in many many different ways - sometimes the person films themselves, sometimes they write a note, sometimes their body is found by their family, sometimes it's not found for months or years, there are ALWAYS unique circumstances coupled with the means of death that make each death unique.-- Obi-Wan Kenobi ( talk) 20:15, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
So there are no unusual deaths, because everyone dies when their heart stops, they stop breathing and their brain ceases to function? I don't think anyone is claiming that all accidental deaths are, by definition. unusual (even on the basis of a report by the "National Center for Health Statistics") - but I guess that depends on your definition of "accidental". Martinevans123 ( talk) 20:22, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
No, I think there *are* unusual deaths, but my definition of unusual is different than yours, and your definition is different than the editor at the podunk times. For example, during the genocide in Rwanda, they killed people in all sorts of "unusual" and horrible ways - roasting babies in the fire, throwing people down into wells, boiling people alive in vats of oil, women being raped by logs, people being skinned alive, hacking them to death with machetes; soldiers captured by the viet cong were subject to all sorts of cruel and strange techniques of death as well, and the cartels in Mexico are currently coming up with all sorts of interesting ways and circumstances and methods to kill people. But if we were to start a catalog of all of those, it would be endless, as human creativity knows no bounds. I mean, one of the entries on the list is a guy who was struck by lightning, who had a premonition of being struck by lightning. Who cares!!?? I really think for me one of the biggest reasons to delete this list from article space is it is a bit disrespectful of the dead, by in a way poking fun at their manner of passing, and saying "Wow, this guy really bit the dust in an interesting or unusual way, let's catalog his death" - for those who have been slaughtered by the thousands by all manner of barbaric methods all over the world, this list is really trivializing death.-- Obi-Wan Kenobi ( talk) 20:47, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
I think your argument on the basis of sentiment has been aired before, but not often. But an encyclopedia, or at least a statistical analysis which might form the basis for an encyclopedia, has no place for sentiment. I think your argument about what constitutes a war crime, however, is quite difficult to address. Martinevans123 ( talk) 20:54, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
As far as I can tell, you have no statistical analysis to back up any of the claims on this list. Lightning? Monkey attacks? Seriously? If you were to study the particular circumstances of any death, you would find coincidence, happenstance, near misses, and all sorts of other strange things that make that particular death unique. Some deaths are more unusual than others, that much is sure, but the inability of the collective editors of this list to define a clear line even after many years is evidence that it is ultimately a subjective list of mostly trivial interest, a random hodge-podge of stories one might collect from tabloids.-- Obi-Wan Kenobi ( talk) 21:28, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Dear Ken... nor is any such statistical analysis being claimed. This is suggested as an aspiration. But what is the scientific basis for "coincidence, happenstance, near misses, and all sorts of other strange things"? I'm not sure these things are quantifiable. The current "clear line" is simply this: "a WP:RS which describes the death as unusual". What's the continued obsession with "tabloids"? Martinevans123 ( talk) 22:02, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
And I think there may be a good case for excluding murders, else we get to this, where sourcing might be even more perilous. But are you aware of this little section? Martinevans123 ( talk) 08:35, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000 (talk) 21:59, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000 (talk) 21:59, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • That was actually pretty funny. If we were judging arguments only by wit, I might change my vote. NinjaRobotPirate ( talk) 01:50, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. I think we're all intelligent enough to realise what constitutes an "unusual death". I see no problem whatsoever with this list as long as it confines itself to listing deaths that are clearly caused by unique or incredibly rare circumstances. Which, as far as I can see, it does. It's been nominated for deletion far too many times and it does smack of "we don't like it so we're going to carry on nominating it until we get the result we want" from a small number of editors. Hopefully they're hoping that eventually a nomination will get in under the radar and nobody will vote to keep it. Otherwise it's going to continue to result in no consensus and therefore continue to be kept. Time to knock these endless nominations on the head. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 23:46, 25 October 2013 (UTC) reply
    • you obviously havent been paying attention to the talk page where there is clear disagreement about nearly every item on the list and so your claim is based on an untrue premise to begin with, but in addition you do realize that by advocating "we are all intelligent enough to realize what constitutes" you are advocating for an overturning of at least one of the three core pillars for content WP:OR (if not two WP:NPOV) as well?-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:22, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
      • No, sorry, none of that is true. In what way does what I said advocate the overturning of WP:OR? This article is not original research. It's a widely misunderstood (or at least misinterpreted) policy, sadly, but the page quite clearly states what is original research. This is not. And it doesn't violate WP:NPOV either, since the criteria for inclusion clearly state that a death must have been described as unusual by reliable sources. That is our usual criterion for inclusion of information in any article. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 14:20, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Wikipedia editors "knowing" what is "unusual" is the epitome of WP:OR "This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not advanced by the sources." (or else WP:V if there are not any sources used at all).-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:29, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
But the article specifies that the death must have been referred to as unusual in reliable sources. So where on earth does OR come in? -- Necrothesp ( talk) 14:39, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Delete because to say something is "unusual" is original research and/or opinion, either by the WP editor or the source. People come to an encyclopedia for factual information, not someone's opinion. The article could be moved to its own website (unusualdeaths.com?) and the fans and the curious could find it there with no loss to anyone. BayShrimp ( talk) 01:08, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. Obi said it best, in my opinion. I've often wondered about the reason for this list's existence, and now I know there is none. Perhaps I'm not intelligent enough to realize what an "unusual death" is, and I don't think it's our business to define "unique or incredibly rare circumstances"--and I don't want newspapers or blogs to define them for us. Drmies ( talk) 01:29, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
    • But blogs aren't allowed as sources here, just like in all other articles. Martinevans123 ( talk) 07:58, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. I've always been on the fence about this list, but the points raised in this discussion – especially by Obi-Wan Kenobi – have convinced me that this list is unworkable; it's just not possible to come up with a clear, sensible, objective inclusion criteria. I like it, but it has to go. DoctorKubla ( talk) 07:17, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Strong keep. An article that generates a lot of interest outside Wikipedia and is of a much higher quality that many publications in the popular press. We actually "rely on newspapers" to decide for us what is notable all the time, just by it being reported. I don't see why the criteria for inclusion can't be adjusted, tightened, made clearer and applied more rigorously. And, as Obi-Wan Kenobi has made clear, there is still plenty of scope for discussion as to what unusual means in this context. I don't think it's satisfactory to simply silence that discussion by deleting the article. Martinevans123 ( talk) 07:58, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
    • you are really going down the WP:ITSPOPULAR as your first criteria? Secondly, we rely on reliable sources to make determinations about content in their area of expertise, and their " reliability " is solely in their area of expertise. There is no evidence that Johnny reporter creating filler for the slow news day has any kind of expertise in the area of "unusual deaths" that we should be relying on his judgment as a reliable source for this subject in this article.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:40, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
      It's not a first criterion, it's an observation. I didn't realise that you knew Johnny so well. Martinevans123 ( talk) 14:56, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Strong Keep Typical case of "hey, let's nominate something I don't like again and again till it goes away". The concept of "unusual death" is notable, well sourced and well set in stone by reliable sources. Lots of work has been going on to clarify the inclusion criteria and include only sourced entries. The Time article and this AfD, juxtaposed, shows how much some WP editors, in their myopic concept of "encyclopedicity", are far removed from the readers - and readers what editors should think about. -- cyclopia speak! 17:26, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
What exactly is the " concept of "unusual death"" that "is notable, well sourced and well set in stone by reliable sources" ? if you have an objective set in stone definition/application, I would love to see it. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:26, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Keep The topic clearly satisfies WP:LISTN, being covered in numerous sources such as:
  1. Strange Deaths
  2. Curious and Unusual Deaths
  3. Mysterious Deaths and Disappearances
  4. The Fortean Times Book of Strange Deaths
  5. The Fortean Times Book of More Strange Deaths
  6. Strange Deaths: More Than 375 Freakish Fatalites
  7. Strange Inhuman Deaths
  8. Curious Events in History
  9. Dreadful Fates
  10. Daft Deaths and Famous Last Words

This repeat nomination is blatantly disruptive per WP:DELAFD, "It can be disruptive to repeatedly nominate a page in the hopes of getting a different outcome." Warden ( talk) 18:41, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply

Still citing Fortean Books as your reliable sources? hmm. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:54, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
The Fortean Times specialises in reporting the unusual and so seems to be a suitable source. And the point here is that we have many sources demonstrating the validity of the concept. These are produced by professional editors and publishers. This is what we look for in preference to personal opinion. Warden ( talk) 19:15, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Fortean Times specializes in publishing on the paranormal as if it were fact. They are not a reliable source for anything but their own crackpot ideas. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:19, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
The classic Fortean phenomenon is fish falling from the sky. This seems to actually happen. I was reading just the other day about a woman who was stunned by a fish falling on her in the middle of London. If someone were to be killed in this way, this might well be considered unusual and the Fortean Times would be a satisfactory source for the matter. Warden ( talk) 20:40, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
are you sure she was just hit on the head? she wasnt killed? she didnt slip on one of the fish and slide under a moving car? or have a caudal fin one of the fish slice her jugular and die? cause that would be unusual and we could add it to the list. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:46, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
unlikely... (and here's a suitable WP:RS sauce) Martinevans123 ( talk) 23:22, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Strong Keep popular article about a topic with abundant coverage in reliable secondary sources. FeydHuxtable ( talk) 23:29, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Keep - I've waited to consider this matter and the potential merits of both deletion and retention, and I feel that this article should be retained in the encyclopedia. It passes WP:NLIST, because content within the article is verifiable from reliable sources. The topic itself is also notable, particularly since entire books are devoted to the topic of covering various unusual deaths.
 – Books that are entirely devoted to the topic include: [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12]
 – Additional sources that provide: significant coverage of this topic include [13], [14], [15], [16]
This is a summary of sources; more are easily found and available. Regarding the notion of inclusion criteria in the article relative to what constitutes something that is "unusual", see the dictionary definition of the word "unusual" here from Oxford Dictionaries. Events that are definable as truly unusual is rather straightforward, in my opinion. This Oxford definition has been included in the article's lead, in hopes to clarify inclusion criteria for the article. Northamerica1000 (talk) 23:33, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
the thing is that even your "reliable sources" DONT AGREE on what is an "unusual death". -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:40, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
and this one is just cribbed from the Wikipedia article. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:46, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
hmm, yes, maybe we need a more historically-aligned archaeological analysis? Martinevans123 ( talk) 23:54, 26 October 2013 (UTC) reply
The term reliable sources in quotes in the comment below my !vote appears to vaguely imply that the entirely reliable sources I listed are somehow not, for whatever reasons. Be assured, they are entirely reliable, though. Perhaps we can arrange a meeting of all the book authors I listed in my !vote and make a request for them to confer regarding their works? Northamerica1000 (talk) 00:52, 27 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Comment - Additionally, the medical literature sources found by User:Cyclopia (listed below in the discussion), including these PubMed results for Unusual deaths provides very compelling evidence regarding the ability for content in this article to be verified. Northamerica1000 (talk) 22:33, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • I dont believe anyone has suggested that the article be deleted because we cannot find a reliably published source that says "this death was unusual" - Are you suggesting that the criteria be that: a medically knowledgeable source identifies the death as unusual? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:51, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per WP:NOT#And finally... Recent discussion at the talk page shows that the community is unable to come to a consensus as to what the inclusion criteria for this list is. There's a good reason for that: there's no policy-compliant inclusion criteria that corresponds well to people's intuitive judgement as to what makes a reasonable candidate for this list. As best as I can tell, that's a result of our policies being centered around content that is suitable for an encyclopedia, while this topic is more or less suitable for Ripley's Believe It or Not. This article is not a part of an encyclopedia.— Kww( talk) 00:48, 27 October 2013 (UTC) reply
    • Isn't this like discussing who to invite to the party? Some there seem to think that "this article is more trouble than it is worth". Martinevans123 ( talk) 09:37, 27 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • WP:NOT#And finally... suggests that we avoid "terrible ideas" but there's no evidence that this page is terrible. It has existed for nearly 10 years now and, in that time, its reception seems to have been excellent. It gets a huge amount of traffic and when the external readership comments on it, it is to praise it, not to condemn it as terrible. The handful of nay-sayers who can't stand it seem quite unrepresentative of this general reception. Warden ( talk) 09:59, 27 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - you know that list is made of crap then inclusion criteria seems to be simply if enough editors currently active on talk page think that "This is a weird incident indeed". Just looked at entries for 1960s and it seems that because astronauts are relatively rare stuff, and their fatalities are even rarer, they all automatically qualify as "unusual". On other hand I don't see KAL007, seems like military shooting down passenger planes is now totally "usual" by wikipedia standards, good to know.-- Staberinde ( talk) 11:38, 27 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • statistically valid, I guess, but I think we'd need a policy on military action in general and war crimes in particular Martinevans123 ( talk) 17:27, 27 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Delete As you know that list is made of crap. Sorry, take the sugar nips and cut the crap. Hafspajen ( talk) 12:02, 27 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Is that unusual crap or just the usual crap? Martinevans123 ( talk) 16:02, 27 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Martinevans123, I like you. Hafspajen ( talk) 17:11, 28 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Question: As usual, in deletion discussions (and in general, in all WP discussion), the real issue is not who is better at wikilawyering and policy-wonking (even if it is a funny online game, I agree). The real issue is: cui prodest - that is, who benefits from our decision -and what are such benefits? Do readers benefit from deletion of this article? Does the encyclopedia improve? Because it seems high profile sources think this article is one of the best of our encyclopedia, and it seems also that readers enjoy it, and it seems that all problems described by delete !votes are a matter of careful editing. I'd like to know what the deletion supporters think about this. -- cyclopia speak! 17:21, 27 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Thanks for asking. As I said in my delete vote I would like to see the list moved to its own website. Interested people would still get the fun of reading the list and perhaps adding to it. In my opinion what WP needs more now is to improve its reputation as a reliable source of serious, accurate information. More than publicity as a fun, cool, interesting website. BayShrimp ( talk) 19:44, 27 October 2013 (UTC) reply
To have "a reliable source of serious, accurate information" is a very laudable aim. But it would be a shame if nobody ever used it. Maybe it's a bit like the need for WP:CIVIL - we can plant thousands (or indeed millions) of seeds in this vast encyclopedic greenhouse, but if the climate isn't right, and there's not enough air and light getting in ... nothing will grow. Martinevans123 ( talk) 20:15, 27 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Your use of WP:ATD implies that the material can be repaired. I submit that so long as the community cannot agree on policy-compliant inclusion criteria, it cannot.— Kww( talk) 20:05, 27 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Actually it did - material was included if sources called it "unusual" or a synonim of it. Nonetheless, even if the decision of inclusion criteria were a complex process, this wouldn't call for deletion. In any case this doesn't answer the question of what is the advantage to the project and/or the readers. -- cyclopia speak! 21:10, 27 October 2013 (UTC) reply
That's the only policy-compliant inclusion criterion, true. I certainly detect an undercurrent in the RFC that many editors (such as User:Dream Focus and User:Colonel Warden) find complying with policy to be excessively restrictive, which means the article will be a constant source of contention.— Kww( talk) 22:18, 27 October 2013 (UTC) reply
How many others would you propose? Have you asked those two editors about that? What's your definition of "constant" exactly? Thanks. Martinevans123 ( talk) 22:22, 27 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Kww, when have I not complied with policy on this article? Kindly assume good faith and stop making vague and inaccurate accusations. Dream Focus 23:22, 27 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • I started a discussion to ask if the word "unusual" had to be used, or could we go by the definition of "unusual" instead. People had mixed opinions on that subject, whether it was original research to think for ourselves and discuss each entry in question on the talk page, or whether it was just common sense to talk it over and work out what was obviously unusual death, such as a man dying from eating cockroaches in a cockroach eating contest. Dream Focus 23:54, 27 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • The list is highly compliant with the relevant notability guideline, WP:LISTN, and seems to be much better in this respect than the various lists created by the nay-sayers. The process of maintaining the list seems to work well enough and is no more difficult than other high-traffic lists such as the list of Internet phenomena or list of emoticons. The only significant problem here is the disruptive repetition of nominations, which clearly violates our deletion policy. Nominating the same page again and again and again and again is a blatant abuse of process and it's time that violators were sanctioned as our policy suggests. Warden ( talk) 00:23, 28 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • back to classic WP:OTHERCRAP -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:19, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • So, lemme get this straight: The last time there was a consensus for keeping this was 2009, so it's safe from ever being nominated from deleted again? That's not right. Something that is closed as no consensus can be brought up again a few months later, particularly something that's as blatant a WP:NOT violation as this article. The only blatant abuse here is this article still existing. p b p 18:49, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • And in what way has the article become so much worse than when the "no consensus" result was reached exactly four months ago? No-one was claiming "blatant abuse" at that result, were they? Martinevans123 ( talk) 19:04, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • people were being more generous then. having seen no improvement, but rather a campaign for disimprovment, the label of "blatant" becomes more necessary. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:08, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • By its very nature, an "unusual death" is subjective. If John Doe calls a death unusual, it's factual to say that he said so. However, this article is presenting these deaths as if they are factually unusual. It's difficult enough to convince people to take Wikipedia seriously, and subjective topics like this make it even more difficult. The subjective selection criteria just make it even more frustrating. Even if we had a hardliner watching this article like a hawk, it would still be presenting the opinion of journalists as facts. When Roger Ebert says that a film is good, we write, "Roger Ebert liked this film." We don't write, "This is a good film." That's exactly what we're doing in this article. In List of films considered the best, we follow policy by simply stating facts: "Roger Ebert called this the best film ever made." "This film placed #3 in a poll by AFI." There's none of that in this article. Who does it benefit? It benefits Wikipedia itself. It reinforces the project's integrity and reputation as a neutral, reliable source of fact, not an purveyor of subjective trivia. And that's the best that I can state it. People may find it intriguing and interesting, but it's better suited to a blog entry than an encyclopedia entry. I'm sorry to disappoint the readers who enjoy this kind of material, but Wikipedia is not the place for it. People want to use the Commons as a free porn host, but we don't allow that. Sometimes you have to tell people, "No, that's beyond our scope and contrary to consensus as to what we want this project to be". NinjaRobotPirate ( talk) 05:19, 28 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Isn't that an argument for renaming the article "List of deaths considered unusual", rather than deleting it? PaleCloudedWhite ( talk) 10:02, 28 October 2013 (UTC) reply
"considered unsusual" by whom? There are as far as I know, no Roger Eberts of "unusual deaths." -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:05, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • There is an element of subjectivity in most of our topics because only mathematics has the logical purity to be defined in a completely rigorous way but there is still ambiguity and debate about the nature of proof. For example, you started the article cult film and maintain the list of cult films. But there is no exact definition of "cult", is there? For example, the Sound of Music is famously kitsch and the cinema club I belong to regularly shows this as sing-along event for which the audience come dressed in lederhosen and dirndls. But your list doesn't include this movie!? And the list only seems to include American movies. For example, it has 9½ Weeks but not Fellini's 8½!? Now we obviously shouldn't delete the list of cult films because it's clearly a concept that gets written about - books like Cult Cinema, for example. But the list needs some curating and this will have to be done in exactly the same way that we maintain the list of unusual deaths - by looking for sources which describe the entry as a cult film. Most lists and categories have to work like this because there's really no other way. The idea that there's a special problem with this particular list is false. Warden ( talk) 07:36, 28 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • If nothing else, I think this marks the most civil conversation we've ever had, and that's definitely good. Yes, you make some very good points, and you'll see that I've struggled with these very issues (such as international scope) on the associated talk pages. I don't have any good answers for you, because I've not been able to come up with any, and I've been struggling with the burn-out associated with attempting to work on two major, time-consuming articles at once. Thus: two very promising yet frustratingly incomplete articles about cult films. I'm not convinced yet, but I take your point. There are definite parallels. NinjaRobotPirate ( talk) 09:09, 28 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Editors can work out what to include or exclude through normal editing and consensus processes. Many things on Wikipedia are based on subjective value judgements including the entire notability rules process. -- Green Cardamom ( talk) 20:07, 27 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Disclaimer I just posted: "Interested people would still get the fun of reading the list and perhaps adding to it." I meant adding to it when they come across a report of an unusual death, not by their own. Just wanted to clear that up. :-) BayShrimp ( talk) 00:52, 28 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - for all the reasons I outlined in the last discussion. A good many of the deaths listed are not even unusual deaths (in their own context) including people dying from common infections, common means of execution and common chemicals. In many cases its the circumstances leading up to the person's death that might be described as unusual (though not especially), not the death itself. Should have been deleted the 1st time, let alone the 6th. The refrains of "but people like it!" are old and its not "wikilawyering" to highlight that the list is fundamentally flawed and inaccurate. Stalwart 111 10:27, 28 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • I wonder whether it is always possible to make a clear distinction between "circumstances" and "cause"? Are these two entities wholly separate and, if so, where does one draw the dividing line between them? Furthermore, does a person's notability make any contributuon to the notabiity of their death (but particularly if that death is deemed to be "unusual"? Thanks. Martinevans123 ( talk) 10:57, 28 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • The notability of the people involved shouldn't make a difference. Either the death is unusual or it isn't. Including the ordinary death of an unusual (more notable than usual) person devalues the list - a good many deaths on that list were perfectly ordinary and routine deaths that just happened to involve notable people. This isn't Notable people who died. As I highlighted in the first discussion, the prince who was subject to execution by immurement. A perfectly ordinary means of execution in the context of his era. Only on the list because he was a prince (though, again, the execution of monarchs/heirs isn't historically unusual either). Then there are the entries that make no sense at all. Like the guy who swallowed a toothpick and died of an ordinary infection. And the list includes a picture of him like it was particularly unusual. How the f**k is that "unusual"? Ask any ER nurse - people swallowing stupid things is a perfectly ordinary reason for triage presentation and fatal infections like that were probably less unusual in that era than they are now. It's just a nonsensical mishmash of things that random journos on various slow news days decided were "unusual" without actually conducting basic research. All this list proves is that sources ordinarily considered reliable for their fact-checking might sometimes not be. Stalwart 111 02:44, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Fair point. But are you proposing to create a special sub-set of WP:RS - ones that we (or you, anyway) can believe? And is your argument sufficient for wholesale deletion of the article? Martinevans123 ( talk) 08:48, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • It's not really a "sub-set of WP:RS"; the normal rules of WP:RS apply and context is important. Really it's a matter of WP:WEIGHT - an article has been created on the basis of cherry-picked references that say this death and that death were unusual. But a good portion of those claims could be countered (and the claims of "unusual" dismissed) with equally strong (or stronger) references that dispute the original claim. As I asked in the last AFD, if I can find a source (hell, lets make it a WP:MEDRS source) to verify that particular infections were/are perfectly ordinary, can I remove those deaths from the list? The list is supposed to contain "unique or extremely rare circumstances of death" yet it includes a man executed on national television with a sword (now sadly quite common), several who died of heart attacks (isn't heart attack one of the most common causes of death according to the graph at the top of the list?), a man who died of a urinary tract infection, a lawyer who died as the result of misadventure with a firearm, a king who died of sepsis and a fellow who died from a snake bite. There's also 1,700 people in one entry who died at the same time - I think it's fair to say that being one of 1,700 people who died of the same thing at the same time isn't "unusual" even if what killed them was uncommon. The article has so many problems (most flowing from its basic premise) that I don't hold a lot of hope for it. If someone wants to pare it right back then we might have something worth considering. But for now... I see (on the talk page) that there was an effort to remove some entries but that effort seems to have become bogged down with "I like it/I think it's interesting" arguments. Stalwart 111 11:11, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • How exactly can " The article has so many problems (most flowing from its basic premise)" be fixed by normal editing? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:16, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • What would be your numerical limit on group deaths? Death from atomic bomb has been suggested. Wouldn't we want to establish an annual global death-rate? Or else even determine the total number of people who have ever died? Martinevans123 ( talk) 12:21, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • I'll respond here to the some of the points made in the back-and-forth since my last comment. Part of the problem is that this has become an indiscriminate collection of facts, many of which don't comply with the list's own inclusion criteria. I don't think we need a numerical ceiling for common sense to tell us that if 1,700 people died of the same thing at the same time, none of those individual deaths are "unique" or "rare" (the list's own criteria). Given the total failure (though editing) to resolve any of the ways this fails WP:NOT, I can't see how we can justify keeping this. The list flies in the face of the project's goal to present accurate information to the reading public by instead presenting dishonest, weasel-wordy, easily-disproved claims (because the claim is subjective anyway) as verified fact alongside "medical" graphs. It's the worst kind of sideshow alley, Ripley's Believe It or Not!-style synthesis. The worst part is that a perfectly good article could probably be written about medically or statistically rare or uncommon deaths, with examples (as have whole books been written) but the best we can manage is this Western-world-centric, unscientific cabinet of curiosities. Stalwart 111 04:32, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • What do you think "rare" means"? Does it not have a statistical basis? Martinevans123 ( talk) 08:49, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • It should have a statistical basis (even a non-statistical but clearly defined one would suffice) but it doesn't in the context of this article. "Rare" in this article is taken to mean "things I haven't heard of" or "things that seem uncommon" when even the most basic research would dispel either or both. If I were to arbitrarily apply a formulae it would at least include a provision that deaths from things verified as statistically common should definitively not be on the list (as being entirely contrary to the premise). We could start with the basics like not including entries that involve torture or execution so common and notable that we have articles on them, like scaphism or immurement (both are featured). If it's common-use enough for us to have a substantive article (beyond a WP:DICDEF) then I think it's fair to say that death resulting from such activity clearly shouldn't be considered "unusual". My first instinct would be that if the cause of death itself is blue-linked, it probably shouldn't on the list. Stalwart 111 09:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • I can't help feeling you are looking at these in terms of a taxonomy of causes that one might find in use by a coroner and saying that circumstances, or precedent environmental causes, are irrelevant. Such a taxomony is designed to have nothing "particularly rare" in it, isn't it? (Although statistically that might be a very different story). I think that's why we aren't " singng from the same hymn sheet" here. But am very glad that you are now looking for ways to improve the article instead of simply deleting it. Martinevans123 ( talk) 10:00, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Well, my heart is still beating and when it stops, I'm sure I won't make this list but I appreciate the sentiment. This is a list of deaths, not a list of amusing anecdotes that concluded with someone's death. The list itself includes taxonomy in the form of a table which highlights common causes of death, as if to say, "these are common but the following are not" but the subsequent list includes quite a few entries with causes of death featured in that table. That makes no sense at all. As I said earlier, some entries seem to be on the list only because the person who died was uncommon (statesman, king, etc). "Common death of an uncommon person" is a fundamental misreading of the "uncommon death" premise of the article. I think the premise of the article is unencyclopaedic, the sources trashy, the inclusion criteria flawed, the content contradictory, the effort level low (considering the effort put into "saving" it here) and the usefulness almost non-existent. But I'll respect consensus and if the best we can manage is that we finally resolve to cut this right back to something more intelligent then that's a win for the project. Stalwart 111 10:44, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Stalwart111, I have to agree with sime of your points here. I must say it is refreshing to see such a balanced and intellgent input to the debate. (I think one source of bias in the "uncommon person" problem is the fact that the deaths of "unknowns" were never reported historically. These days, of course, we have then internet, with it's "OMG News" sections from nearly every news provider, etc.) Martinevans123 ( talk) 11:00, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • I think that's right, but it's not WP's purpose to repeat that "OMG News". From my perspective, we can either stick with the current "Ripley's-style" rubbish and the list continues to fail WP:NOT or we can apply some discerning, partially scientific, logical and fact-based criteria, cut the list down extensively and maybe keep something that might (admittedly) not appeal to the lowest common denominator. The talk page suggests that it will never move away from the former, so it remains in violation of policy, so I remain in favour of deletion. If there's a genuine, good-faith commitment to take out the trash then I might feel differently. Stalwart 111 11:58, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • At least this AFD now has a soundtrack (and it's already part of a 7-CD box set). Stalwart 111 12:57, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
it's not "a line", it's just a response to Stalwart's points. I was asking him, not you. Policy is important, but so are people's views. How else is policy ever changed. And he's prepared to make reasoned argument, instead of constantly parroting out a patchwork-quilt of policy links. Not that you yourself are ever given to any sort of hyperbolic link-fest, of course. Martinevans123 ( talk) 18:39, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
if you are saying that policy would need to be changed for this article to meet policy, that i fully agree with you on. however, the policy would need to be changed first before the application of the new version of policy would be applicable to whether or not this article meets policy. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:43, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
gee, thanks for clarifying that one for us. Martinevans123 ( talk) 18:48, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Keep An encyclopedic topic since the 19th century [17]. -- Colapeninsula ( talk) 11:16, 28 October 2013 (UTC) reply
    • You failed to point out it is "The Dictionary of Phrase and Fable." Yes, people have collected gossip for entertainment for a long time, but at least back then they were not presenting it as truth. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:38, 28 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • 1) we dont present the fables from Brewer's as " facts" 2) the subject of "fables" is one with long history of experts publishing peer reviewed commentary in the subject area and a fairly well defined definition. the subject of "unusual deaths" satisfies none of those criteria and to compare the two is pretty ridiculous along the lines of comparing apples to pitchforks. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 10:53, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Strongest possible delete: Delete is the only option here, because this fails WP:NOT in spades. There's no set-in-stone criteria as to what's an unusual death and what isn't, and I can guarantee you that Warden's books disagree with each other as to that criteria. If you need proof of how subjective this list is, you should note that the Wikipedia community has spent the time since the 5th AfD fighting over what belongs and what doesn't. And there's good reason why there's never going to be any agreement: because, on the one hand, anything that's not one of the top 4-5 worldwide causes of death can be considered "unusual"; but on the other, anything which has claimed more than one life can be considered "usual". Many of the top-notch lists on Wikipedia have clearly defined criteria (people who were X and did Y, usually; or places designated A because of association with B); this list could be 1 MB and still not be exhaustive, another no-no per WP:NOT. p b p 17:40, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Likewise. Rename if not delete p b p 22:18, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Doesn't seems quite as controversial. But why? Looking forward to its (first) RfD? Martinevans123 ( talk) 22:41, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Its first AfD was years ago. According to its talk page, it's had five. p b p 00:08, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Oh, yes gosh, my mistake. How on earth has that survived? Seems more debatable that this one. Martinevans123 ( talk) 00:13, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • I would also note that any vote that hinges primarily on hit count should be ignored; an article that gets a million hits can still be deleted if it fails WP:NOT and an article that gets 10 hits can still be kept if it passes WP:GNG. "There is a reliable source for each death" isn't a reason for keeping either, as it doesn't address the inherent subjectivity of what is on the list. Remember that for a list to be kept, the TOPIC has to be notable and pass WP:NOT as well as the entries in it (Otherwise, we could just create a bunch of lists of notable topics that have nothing in common with each other). We are much better served with categories that define peoples' deaths rather than some catch-all list. And it goes without saying that "keep because we need to stop AfDing this" is invalid as well; something that is closed as non-consensus is perfectly reasonable to be revisited within a couple of months, and this needed to be revisited as such an affront to WP:NOT. p b p 17:40, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Could you explain what you mean by "a bunch of lists of notable topics"? Thanks. Martinevans123 ( talk) 21:36, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Draw any number of notable topics out of a hat, and make them into a list, regardless of whether or not they have anything in common. That's what could happen if we didn't have the rule that the list itself (not just the entries) must pass WP:GNG and not violate WP:NOT. What topics are in said lists is less important than the fact that said lists shouldn't exist p b p 22:18, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Sorry, what are the "notable topics" here? It looks like one topic. Martinevans123 ( talk) 22:27, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Note above that people voted to keep because each death was sourced. They are claiming that each death is a notable topic. I am claiming that notability of each death is irrelevant if it fails WP:NOT. p b p 23:18, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • I think that's your own personal interpretation of why people voted. That's not why I voted - care to check? It seems you're looking for a WP:RS that "the topic of unusual deaths" is a notable one in its own right. Martinevans123 ( talk) 23:24, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • I never said that's how you personally voted (but I do have problems with your vote, as it seems to be based on the TIME coverage, which is not germane). It is how Dream Focus voted, almost exactly in those words p b p 23:43, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Sorry, I still think "unusual deaths" is a notable topic in its own right (regardless of what I may have said in, or meant by, my !vote) as do, apparently, the people who have written books on the subject. Martinevans123 ( talk) 00:00, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Strongest possible keep: To counter-balance Pbp above me. I agree the list is subjective, subject to whatever editing standards consensus agrees upon, and I agree "Warden's books" probably disagree over criteria - as it is true that entire books are devoted to this subject. Many notable subjects are messy. 10 AfDs! Good grief!-- Milowent • has spoken 19:41, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
You're going to need a better rationale than "Keep because some other guy voted delete" p b p 19:45, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Yeah, but the "some other guy" was you! The subject meets WP:GNG. You guys make me laugh. If I decide to read all 10 AfDs perhaps I'll come back with a more detailed explanation, but I don't want to waste everyone's time retreading old ground. Just like Silverseren was all gung ho to delete something he didn't like so are you.-- Milowent • has spoken 21:51, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Um, @ Milowent:, ain't you forgetting that, in case of a tie between WP:GNG and WP:NOT, WP:NOT wins out? p b p 22:18, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Your personal subjective opinion that WP:NOT is not satisfied is disputed by many other editors as well as sourcing, so that's not a very convincing argument. Every "List of (notable) ..." could be the subject to random deletion based on your subjective arguments.-- Milowent • has spoken 14:00, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
    • (e/c)The "strongest possible delete" was based on policy WP:NOT. to effectively be a "counterbalance" you would actually need a policy to base your "strongest possible keep" on. I do not see anything other than WP:ILIKEIT (which is not policy)-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:47, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
      • Problem is, there is nothing in WP:NOT that prohibits the list intrinsically. All the delete !votes complain of is that the article has WP:OR problems as it currently stands. This is not a reason to delete (how many times must I remind this?), it is a reason to sit down around a table and find a way to solve such problems. -- cyclopia speak! 21:24, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
If there were problems that could be fixed you might be able to point to that or at least progress towards them being fixed, however, the problems have not been able to be fixed in over a year of attempts have not been getting smaller and in fact, the push has been to increase the number of policy related problems. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:08, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
There was a lot of progress towards the OR issues being fixed, also thanks to your very own efforts, TheRedPenOfDoom. Yes, it is a slow and frustrating process. Yes, not everybody might agree with you. But it's not like we have to be ready tomorrow, and that the situation is difficult to fix does not mean we have to throw everything away. If we were to delete every article with long-standing problems (be them OR, POV or whatever), I suppose WP would be lucky to remain with a dozen articles. -- cyclopia speak! 10:26, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Look, if we were talking about just part of the article being WP:OR, and being easily replaceable with something that ain't OR, you might have a point. But every single thing on the list is on there as a result of a judgment call (Read:OR) by a Wikipedia editor that Mr. X's death is unusual. And anything you could add instead is exactly the same way. In short, it's all OR, and it can never be anything but OR. As such, this article violates WP:NOT p b p 23:22, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
        • Please see WP:NOTDIRECTORY, points 1 and 6 p b p 22:18, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
          • Points saw and exceptionally irrelevant: unusual deaths form a strongly associated topic, as external sources confirm, and there is no cross-categorization whatsoever here -again, we talk of a topic on which there are entire books. -- cyclopia speak! 22:33, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
            • "Exceptionally irrelevant?" You can't dismiss the NOT policy as irrelevant, because anything that fails it must be deleted. And, again, you are citing the GNG as counter to a NOT argument...see above posting about NOT superseding GNG. NOT is policy, GNG is a guideline p b p 23:18, 29 October 2013 (UTC) reply
              • Purplebackpack89, unfortunately it seems you have some reading comprehension issues. I will try to explain myself better. The points you cited of WP:NOT are irrelevant to the case in point because they have nothing to do with this article. In other words, the article does not fail the policies you cited, because they point to issues that do not exist here. Also, I didn't cite the GNG above. I suppose with this you refer to my assertion that "we talk of a topic on which there are entire books". That was not about the GNG. That was about the cross-categorization point of WP:NOT you cited. Given that the topic is recognized by multiple sources, it means it cannot be considered as a random or trivial cross-categorization. I hope this helps. -- cyclopia speak! 10:22, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
                • @ Cyclopia:, Don't patronize me. Just because somebody wrote a book about it doesn't mean that the topic passes WP:NOT muster. All it means is that the author of the book, rather than a Wikipedia editor, pulled the list out of thin air. It in no way gives it the objective criteria needed for a list to kept. You have yet to present anything that gives an objective criteria, and until you do so, I will continue to maintain that this article should be deleted. p b p 13:15, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
                  • @ Purplebackpack89:, it means however that the topic is not a trivial or whimsical cross-categorization. So it means for sure that it passes the part of WP:NOT you asked me to read. Before handwaving policies, it would be better if you grasped what they actually mean. About the objective criteria, it is the one we always use for content: if sources describe it as unusual, odd, weird or similar. -- cyclopia speak! 13:30, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per WP:NOT. Clearly. Indiscrimate list based on fully subjective and frankly tabloid criterias. Not an encyclopedic topic. I believe this kind of tabloid, non-encyclopedic lists and sometimes articles in the long run harms the seriosity and reputation of Wikipedia. Regards, Iselilja ( talk) 13:44, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Do you have any evidence to support your belief, please? As discussed above, we have evidence from Time magazine that this article is actually praised rather than scorned. We also have evidence that it is the attempts to delete such excellent work which actually damage Wikipedia's reputation. People are naturally wary of contributing when their work may be torn to pieces by a mob, as happened to Hypatia. Warden ( talk) 14:02, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Do you see The Times, The Independent and the BBC as "tabloid sources? Martinevans123 ( talk) 14:09, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Not an encyclopedic topic. - WP:UNENCYC apart (that is, rehash of WP:IDONTLIKEIT), there are plenty of sources on the topic, and as such this is pretty much encyclopedic.
  • I believe this kind of tabloid, non-encyclopedic lists and sometimes articles in the long run harms the seriosity and reputation of Wikipedia. - This is quite a funny assessment for an article that Time Magazine deemed an "unforgettable entry" (and in a positive sense). -- cyclopia speak! 14:29, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • So what? Martinevans123 ( talk) 14:50, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • That looks like some sort of link rot. We should not contribute to this serious problem by making our own links unavailable after they have been online for 10 years. Punching such holes in our site would be technical vandalism. Even if we decided to restructure our coverage of this topic, there are better alternatives to deletion which would leave a trail for readers to follow. Warden ( talk) 15:10, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Keep The list inclusion criteria specify that multiple RS are required for each entry on the list. I would interpret that as multiple RS that specif that a death was unusual (or strange or some such). With that qualifier I don't think this is an indiscriminate list, nor does nay other current policy that i am aware of prohibit or even disfavor such a list. I might add that while consensus can change, renominating an often previously AfD'd page after less than six months is IMO poor practice and should be discouraged, and I would weakly keep on that basis alone. If indvidual items on the list are not properly supported by RSs, find sources and add them, or remove the items, but that is merely standard editing, no need for an AfD. DES (talk) 18:25, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Question - the last AfD lasted a full 2 hours and 2 minutes. How long does this one get? I see no trends toward any consensus emerging here, only progressively entrenched positions, some of which are now starting to deteriorate into animosity and edit warring. Martinevans123 ( talk) 19:18, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Keep per myriad comments above, notably those of Necrothesp, cyclopia, and Martinevens123. I participated extensively in recent discussions at the article's talk page before giving that up as a waste of time, since people were just talking past each other. There were two opposing camps there, with little or no middle ground in common, and it's exactly the same in this RfC. Both sides make valid points based on policy and reason, but never the twain shall meet. The only possible outcome here is "no consensus", which should result in a de facto "keep". If that happens, I'd be inclined to consider further AfD nominations purely disruptive unless new arguments are brought to the table. Rivertorch ( talk) 19:31, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Martinevans123 has made valid points based on policy and reason? And here I thought he was motivated solely to make this AFD so long and surreal that a naive admin might mistake the "keep" camp's position for being policy-based.— Kww( talk) 20:51, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Funny, I have the same impression about many delete !votes. -- cyclopia speak! 21:28, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • D'oh, Kww! and I thought no-one would notice. But yes, of course, I take all the blame for the surrealism. But the length?? Not quite all my ow work there, I think. And that "admin" would certainly have to be rather naive. Martinevans123 ( talk) 23:23, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • If I were so inclined, I could snark about the deletion supporters' tendency to launch endless RfCs and repeat themselves ad infinitum in the apparent belief that making the same tired arguments a sufficient number of times will produce a different outcome. (Hey, it worked with pending changes, so who knows—maybe they're right.) Anyway, you say "surreal" as if it's a bad thing. This is the least tedious RfC of its length I've encountered in a long time. Whether it's RfCs or discussing the special needs of a unique article, I must say I prefer a mild dose of surrealism to the purely paint-by-numbers approach that's so in vogue as of late. Do you remember the heady days when creative arguments were encouraged and Wikipedia's policies were crafted to support the diverse needs of its various articles instead of being used as inflexible molds to which all articles must conform? Rivertorch ( talk) 07:38, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • The keep camp has ample policy support. For example, we have WP:PRESERVE which states that we should "Preserve appropriate content." And we know that the content is appropriate because of the guidance of WP:LISTN, "One accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources." It's the delete camp that lacks policy support. Kww made an appeal to WP:BADIDEA but did not present any evidence to support his subjective opinion. PBP is now off at the village pump trying to construct some ad hoc policy support for the delete case but there seems to be little support for his proposal. Warden ( talk) 08:04, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Delete because Necrothesp's Keep rationale, "I think we're all intelligent enough to realise what constitutes an 'unusual death'", made me actually jump in surprise. No, we're not. I'm definitely not. And whatever intuitions people may have about what constitutes an unusual death vary wildly (how surprising), per the list's talkpage. I can't believe I'm agreeing with pbp. That's got to tell you something. Bishonen | talk 21:09, 30 October 2013 (UTC). reply
Sorry, but a bad keep argument doesn't make a delete argument (nor viceversa). There are RS on the subject that can be perused, and sourcing is and should be the primary criteria. If it is not, we can discuss it all together and patrol the list to take care of it. It is a problem of editing, not deletion. -- cyclopia speak! 21:28, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
with the amount of editing that has occurred at that article over the past year, if it was purely editing issues which have the possibility of being fixed, they would have been fixed. That even after a year of fairly sustained attempts at improvement the article is still in such poor shape is evidence that it is fatally flawed from the premise and that no amount of editing has any likely chance of being able to counter the fact that "unusual" is entirely subjective. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:32, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
And, uhm, why one year (or ten, or one hundred years) are a deadline, given that we have none? Wikipedia is a work in progress. Even if the list would be doomed to be imperfect forever (something I hardly believe) because of failure at getting consensus between editors, this doesn't mean we should delete it. We are not meant to be perfect. -- cyclopia speak! 21:42, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
While we do not need to be perfect, we do need to be within policy or at least have a vision of getting there. There is nothing to indicate either is possible even given another year or ten or one hundred. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:47, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
That is disingenuous. The article greatly benefited of attempts, including yours, to link every entry to reliable sources. Pinning all entries to reliable sources is well within reach. I don't see why we should throw the towel. -- cyclopia speak! 22:06, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Vital supporting evidence from Chess Grand Master William Hartston [18]. Martinevans123 ( talk) 23:30, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
If a comment on Wikipedia made you "jump in surprise", I hate to think what a mild surprise in the real world would do to you. Probably best to wrap yourself up in cotton wool and stay indoors with the TV and radio firmly off! Much safer. Personally, I think it's rather sad that my appeal to common sense has met with such shock. However, given the number of AfD discussions in which I've participated and the complete lack of common sense and desperation for everything to be governed by rules that I've seen from many editors, I'm not really surprised. And that's sad too. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 02:40, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Many judgements will be somewhat subjective, but some will be clear. T the need to consider each entry carefully is not a reason for deletion. The topic is valif--it's something significant which people might expect to find in an encyclopedia DGG ( talk ) 09:06, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
can you give an example of which ones "will be clear"? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:16, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply

arbitrary break

  • comment I'm adding another rationale to my delete above: WP:BLP1E - I came across the following in a review of "Strange Deaths" book: "As a family member of Frank Nelson, I am upset to see a story that is so tragic to my family, be smeared in a tacky book created to entertain others. I can see it now: "Hey! Let's take stories that have left families grieving over loved ones they've lost and turn them into a source of entertainment for others and make money off of their pain!" To me it's disrespectful and it made me sick to see this book. Please, if you do read this, I hope you remember those who were left in pain. Grandmothers, parents, uncles, aunts, cousins, wives and children. Frank was a loving husband, with 4 beautiful daughters and a HUGE family who loved and cared for him. I don't want him to be remembered by the tragic way he passed, but rather for the great man that he was." I'm not going to besmear Mr. Nelson further by linking to his untimely passing, but the point of the family member (who I don't have any reason to disbelieve) is a good one, and we should take it under consideration. We've listed a number of people here who aren't otherwise notable, and immortalizing them by what some tabloid-esque book considers "unusual" is offensive to their memory - especially if they weren't already famous or notable for something else, it's a rather dubious honor to be listed on this list, and I would be pretty pissed off if my relative ended up here for all to see and snicker about.-- Obi-Wan Kenobi ( talk) 21:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Wow, that's some grasping at straws. First of all, BLP is rarely an issue when we deal with dead people. Yes, I know that recent deaths etc. come under BLP, and I can agree on perhaps a 1-2 year moratorium on a fatal case before considering adding it here (unless massively notable). But in general you can't build a BLP case for dead people: BLP is especially tough and rigorously enforced because it is meant to protect a very specific delicate case, that is living people. As such, with great power comes great responsibility. It is not meant to be used as a jolly, and for sure it is not meant as a blanket ban on everything vaguely disquieting to people. In any case, even if we removed all deaths of the last 100 years, just to be sure, this still wouldn't change zilch on the existence of the list per se. -- cyclopia speak! 21:47, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Using your rationale, presumably you also feel it's wrong for these deaths to be reported in the media? Because they certainly are. And that includes the "respectable" media. Or does this squeamishness only apply to Wikipedia articles you don't like? -- Necrothesp ( talk) 02:31, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
living people includes surviving relatives of the person in question. It's all about balance; here I would sway, if it's kept, to not include deaths from past 50 years or so to avoid re-victimizing the families of people who died in bizarre/unfortunate fashions, as a way of avoiding making a freakshow. As it is now it's clearly offensive to the families, who are living. If the subject overall was less subjective and more encyclopedic the balance would be different, but given it is completely subjective as has been demonstrated in spades (I tried to delete a king falling off a horse and was reverted 'cuz one source thinks it's unusual!!' - so unusual becomes the magical talisman of a word that allows us to elevate a single tragedy and highlight it like a tabloid.-- Obi-Wan Kenobi ( talk) 03:16, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
We are not censored, Obiwankenobi. That something can be offensive to someone is not a reason to remove sourced content. That is independent from BLP. BLP does not stop us from reporting stuff that can be offensive or distressful to relatives of a person. It doesn't even stop us from reporting well sourced stuff which is distressful to the BLP subject, by the way. BLP also (again) applies to living people and very recently deceased ones. It does not apply to people dead 2,5 or 50 years ago. Stop crying BLP, it is an interesting tactic but it is trivializing the BLP policy, and it is not going to fly.-- cyclopia speak! 09:44, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
"living people includes surviving relatives of the person in question". Since when does it? That would surely mean that BLP applies to pretty much everyone with an article on Wikipedia. I don't think this is the intention of BLP! -- Necrothesp ( talk) 14:50, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
I'm not talking about censorship, and you are being unbelievably callous. I'm talking about, if the list is kept, we should remove all non-notable people, especially those killed in the past 50 years or so, so as to not drag the memory of their loved ones through the dirt for our own curiosity. You've seen the statement of a family member above, how hurt they were that their husband's story was parroted in a gruesome collection of strange deaths. Yes, I agree we should not avoid offending people if on balance the reader is better served, but here, the reader is not better served, and the encyclopedia is not better off to have the name/age/circumstances of death of completely unknown people who recently died published on one of the world's largest websites just because some pulp rag called their death 'unusual'.-- Obi-Wan Kenobi ( talk) 14:54, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • comment I want to add too a rationale to my keep above. The concept of unusual death is well established in the medical literature. User:Obiwankenobi on the article talk page listed these examples:
    • Some Unusual Toxicological Aspects of Two Carbon Monoxide Deaths; Mary J. Gretney1, R.C. Ginger1, C.M. Bullivant2
    • A death in a stationary vehicle whilst idling: unusual carbon monoxide poisoning by exhaust gases; Motoki Osawaa
    • An Unusual Case of Carbon Monoxide Poisoning;Pierre L. Auger, Benoît Levesque, Richard Martel, Henri Prud'homme, David Bellemare, Claude Barbeau, Pierre Lachance and Marc Rhainds;Environmental Health Perspectives;Vol. 107, No. 7 (Jul., 1999), pp. 603-605
    • Unusual Presentation of Death Due to Carbon Monoxide Poisoning: A Report of Two Cases;American Journal of Forensic Medicine & Pathology:June 1997 - Volume 18 - Issue 2 - pp 181-184;Ruszkiewicz, Andrew M.D.; de Boer, Bastiaan F.R.C.P.A.; Robertson, Shelley F.R.C.P.A.
    • JForensicSci,July 2005, Vol. 50, No. 4;Anny Sauvageau,Suicide by Inhalation of Carbon Monoxide in a Residential Fire: "We present here the unusual case of an adult female who committed suicide by waiting in the living room after setting fire to her bedroom"
Looking for "unusual death" on PubMed retrieves 45 entries. This demonstrates that the concept of unusual death can be reliably sourced (forensic and medical journals are about as reliable as you can get on the concept of death and its unusualness) and it is an encyclopedic, notable concept. -- cyclopia speak! 22:02, 30 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Cyclopia, you need to dig a bit deeper. If you search with google scholar, you will find thousands, and if you search for 'unusual' + 'death' or 'fatality' or 'died' etc without obliging the terms to appear together you end up with several thousand hits, which when added to the numerous deaths described in the various book collections would make this list way too long to be manageable or reasonable - and the medical definition of unusual may be rather boring to most people, illustrating the subjective nature - unusual to a cardiologist is quite different from unusual to a Fortean times editor, who may find many of the cardiologists deaths dreadfully boring, while the cardiologist may find the Fortean deaths equally common.
if you search pubmed for 'tragic death' you will also find a great many hits, and plenty of lists in the various media sources as well, describing one death or another as tragic. But that would be a horrible defense for creating a list of tragic deaths.
we could also find sourcing for lists of 'interesting deaths' or 'untimely deaths' or 'horrific deaths' or 'brutal deaths' or 'unexpected deaths' or 'unexplained deaths' or half a dozen other adjectives that people use, and could then use those sources to defend new lists of deaths based on those subjective adjectives too, and Wikipedia could become a veritable death-classifying Machine. But it's a bad idea, because the subjective inclusion criteria that simply require one source to use one adjective results in a complete and unencyopedic mish-mash of ironic although very ordinary deaths of famous people coupled with bizarre deaths of unknown people as well as apocryphal stories of ancient figures where we have no way to truly verify any of the legends surrounding their deaths. Now you are proposing to add medical researchers interpretations of 'unusual' which will result in a flood of heart attacks where some tiny little difference that only a cardiologist cares about will flip a case from routine to unusual, cluttering the list with yet another orthogonal grouping of 'unusual' deaths - and you welcome this as a good idea! Stunning.-- Obi-Wan Kenobi ( talk) 03:33, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
As I told you elsewhere, if a list becomes unmanageable we can restrict inclusion criteria. We can report only unusual deaths reported by medical reviews, instead of single case reports calling them as such, for example. Or we can report only things reported by more than one source. Or more simply and inclusively, we can split the article in several sub-lists. There are lots of things we can decide. But the point is that, as you say, you can find thousands entries on academic papers on the subject, so it is hardly nonsense. About the other adjectives you list, well, if there are robust sources on the topics that guarantee us notability (e.g. are the books devoted to the topic of "tragic deaths" or "horrific deaths" per se as we have on unusual deaths?) then I see no problem in generating such articles. -- cyclopia speak! 09:07, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
No-one is contesting the fact that the adjective "unusual" is sometimes used to describe a death, by all manner of reliable sources. What we are contesting is whether such a collection, based simply on the shared use of that particular adjective, is encyclopedic - most delete votes think not, because this violates WP:NOT. Since the definition of "unusual" varies so widely across the spectrum of people who comment on death, the resultant mix is a complete hodge-podge and is unencyclopedic, in the same way a list of "tragic deaths" would be unencyclopedic. And yes, there are books devoted to the topic - see
  • They Died Too Young: The Brief Lives and Tragic Deaths of the Mega-Star Legends of Our Times; Author Smithmark Publishing; Editor Tony Hall;Publisher Smithmark Pub, 1996
  • Remembering Margo: A Triumphant Life, a Tragic Death, and Life's Greatest Deception; Author Donzella Michele Malone;Edition illustrated;Publisher Vantage Press, Inc, 2006
  • This Is Justice?: The Tragic Death of a K-9 Officer (And Other Interesting Stories); Author Robert Carson, Jr.;Publisher Tate Publishing, 2010 ISBN  1615662480, ISBN  9781615662487
Or do you like untimely as an adjective? There are books devoted to that subject as well:
  • Untimely Deaths by Assassination;Author Walter J. Whittemore;Publisher iUniverse, 2012; ISBN  1462038239, ISBN  9781462038237
  • Death by Rock and Roll: The Untimely Deaths of the Legends of Rock;A Citadel press book;Author Gary J. Katz;Edition illustrated;Publisher Carol Publishing Group, 1994
  • Shortened Seasons: The Untimely Deaths of Major League Baseball's Stars and Journeymen;Author Fran Zimniuch;Publisher Taylor Trade Publishing, 2007; ISBN  1461733782, ISBN  9781461733782
What about suspicious deaths? The morbid editors at Casemate publications have a whole series of true-crime pulp books on suspicious deaths, such as
I'm sure I don't need to remind you that everyone dies, death is almost always a tragedy, and people write a lot of pulp about death - this doesn't make it encyclopedic. Indeed, people have made lists of <adjective> deaths for pretty much any adjective you can think of. If the bar is simply "did anyone ever make a list of X" - therefore wikipedia can make a list of "X", then we might as well give up - there are lists of women with big breasts (deleted here); in fact there are whole books devoted to such lists, i.e. lists of lists, which have such gems as "10 Words you can't pronounce correctly"; "The 15 most boring classics"; "10 memorable books that never existed"; "18 famous brains, and what they weighed"; "15 famous events that happened in the bathtub"; "10 people not to invite to dinner" - and if Amazon sells a book, that makes it a reliable source, right? No - we also exercise editorial control here, and in cases where the inclusion criteria is subjective and based solely on the use of an adjective (or synonym of said adjective) to describe a death, this is not sufficient. We don't have an article on Unusual death, and the potential number of unusual deaths given its fuzzy description is quite large - as such, the TOPIC of the list itself is not notable and burdened by a completely and totally subjective adjective, therefore the list itself is not notable.-- Obi-Wan Kenobi ( talk) 14:46, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
All you have proven to me, frankly, is that we actually should make List of deaths considered tragic and List of deaths considered suspicious blue links, plus a few other lists (and thanks for that). Again and again, the inclusion criteria are not subjective, they rely on reliable sources. And handwaving WP:NOT without explaining why and how it exactly clashes with that policy is not going to fly. I also remind you that attempts at changing the WP:NOT policy to meet your and Pbp criteria for lists are being met with unanimous opposition so far, which makes your argument pretty moot coming down to consensus. -- cyclopia speak! 15:07, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
If that's the case, you should read WP:BEANS. We could also have List of accidental deaths and List of deaths considered untimely and List of deaths considered sad and List of unexpected deaths and List of horrific deaths and List of terrible deaths and List of painful deaths and so on and so forth, and if you create any of them I or others will immediately nominate them for deletion, for the same reason as this one - inherently subjective and not encyclopedic and in violation of WP:NOT - specifically, this clause: "As explained in the policy introduction, merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia. To provide encyclopedic value, data should be put in context with explanations referenced to independent sources." - we don't have independent sources which give us an agreed upon definition of "unusual" death; indeed, coronors offices, medical researchers, and the Fortean times all DISAGREE on what makes for an unusual death. We don't have "Unusual death" as an article for a reason - it is itself not encyclopedic, it is merely an adjective (like strange, or bizarre, or interesting) applied in front of a noun. Now, we could have "Statistically rare causes of death" - where we discuss causes of death that are extremely rare from a statistical point of view, and then we could have a list of such deaths as verified by reliable sources that are extremely rare - but we don't have that, and we're not likely to.-- Obi-Wan Kenobi ( talk) 15:48, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Oh, and about notability, that we still don't have an article entitled Unusual death does not mean that we should not have one. The topic is notable, so that article is a further entry in my to-do list.-- cyclopia speak! 15:08, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • The one in WP:LSC itself, if you cared to read beyond your quote: "In cases where the membership criteria are subjective or likely to be disputed (for example, lists of unusual things or terrorist incidents), membership criteria should be based on reliable sources." -- cyclopia speak! 15:00, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
and to continue the quote "When establishing membership criteria for a list, ask yourself: If this person/thing/etc., wasn't an X, would it reduce their fame or significance? Would I expect to see this person or thing on a list of X? Is this person or thing a canonical example of some facet of X?" How can any of these ever be answered more than purely subjectively when assessing them against "unusual deaths"? The terrorist incidents can be answered by asking do the majority of mainstream sources discussing the incident consider it a "terrorist incident". If we apply that to this list, there are no entries. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:33, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
If this person/thing/etc., wasn't an X, would it reduce their fame or significance? - Given that such deaths are almost always reported exactly and only because they're unusual, answer is "yes". Would I expect to see this person or thing on a list of X? - That depends on the individual item, but if there are sources calling it like that, and if the claim to fame of the event is such unusualness, I'd say definitely. Is this person or thing a canonical example of some facet of X? - I'd say "unusualness" and "canonical" do not go hand in hand by definition, but also there is not really something as a "non-canonically unusual death" versus a "canonically unusual death". I'd say this last question makes little sense in this specific case. However the previous two are well answered, that's more than enough we need for the entries. -- cyclopia speak! 20:09, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
except that most of the entries are actually NOT notable at all. and for those that are individually notable, to say that for example Harry Houdini's or Tennessee Williams fame rests on their death is just nonsense. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:17, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Who talked about notability of the entries? "Fame and significance" are not WP:N, nor viceversa. WP:CSC explicitly allows entries where all entries are not individually notable, by the way. -- cyclopia speak! 20:24, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Joe Rattlesnakecatcher has neither "Fame and significance" nor Notability. And you think we should remove all the entries that do have articles so this one can be a list where none of the subjects individually is notable? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:29, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Joe Rattlesnakecatcher has neither "Fame and significance" nor Notability. - That's your opinion. Given that sources reported about his demise, I think he has much more fame and significance than innumerable other people nobody will ever write about.
And you think we should remove all the entries that do have articles so this one can be a list where none of the subjects individually is notable? - Where did I say such a bizarre claim? I just clarified that entries do not need to be notable.-- cyclopia speak! 20:43, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Hang on, folks. Is this an RfD here or Annexe 70 or so of a Talk Page content dispute? Martinevans123 ( talk) 22:52, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. Dream Focus, Edison, NorthAmerica1000, Cyclopia, Martin451, and others have articulated once again the reasons why this article is worth keeping. Multiple AfDs and attacks on this article have not come close to showing a consensus, or a compelling overriding argument, why there should not be room for this in the encyclopedia. The contention that the article should go because the critics haven't stopped criticizing is a species of heckler's veto: it doesn't justify the exclusion of valid, interesting, popular, sourced, worthwhile material. -- Arxiloxos ( talk) 15:22, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
I will give you "interesting", and "popular", and over the past year "sourced" has become a more valid descriptor, although at least through the past week there have been glaring examples where that descriptor is false. But a claim of "worthwhile" is certainly going to need some type of support. and "valid" is certainly questionable when there is no "objective and unambiguous" criteria.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:28, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • comment Based on the discussion here and elsewhere, I'm adding another reason why this list should not exist. The inclusion criteria, which currently seems to be "a reliable source has called the death unusual" would lead to a list which is too large to reasonably maintain. Below is a list of articles I've collected in the past 20 minutes from a simple search on Google scholar, just looking at unusual suicides. There are several thousand results, though google will only show the first 1,000; I've listed the first 70 or so below:
68 new "unusual" suicides
  1. An unusual case of suicide by stabbing with a falling weighted dagger
  2. Planned complex suicide: an unusual suicide by hanging and gunshot
  3. An unusual suicide: the importance of the scene investigation
  4. Unusual Suicide with a Chainsaw
  5. An unusual suicide case of the combination of asphyxia
  6. An Unusual Suicide by Stabbing
  7. Suicide by injection of snake venom
  8. An unusual case of suicide by stabbing with a falling weighted dagger
  9. Unusual findings in a case of suicide with a gas weapon
  10. Unusual suicide caused by a stab wound in the neck
  11. Nail gun injury to the brain: an unusual case of suicide
  12. Suicide by shooting with a tiling hammer
  13. An unusual suicide with a safety razor blade—a case report
  14. Third time lucky--an unusual suicide.
  15. Choking on toilet paper: an unusual case of suicide and a review of the literature on suicide by #smothering, strangulation, and choking
  16. Two unusual cases of suicide by hanging
  17. Suicide with two guns represents a special type of combined suicide
  18. An unusual mechanical asphyxia in a homicide-suicide case by smothering and strangulation
  19. An unusual death by transcranial stab wound: homicide or suicide?
  20. An unusual case of railway suicide.
  21. Circular saw suicide
  22. Automatic Rifle Injuries: Suicide by Eight Bullets Report of an Unusual Case and a Literature Review
  23. Planned complex suicide: Self-strangulation and plaster ingestion
  24. Suicide by head explosion: unusual blast wave injuries to the cardiovascular system
  25. Suicide by pencil
  26. An unusual form of suicide
  27. Suicide by band saw
  28. Suicide using a hand grenade.
  29. Planned complex suicide: an unusual case
  30. An unusual case of suicide by sharp force
  31. Suicide by homemade firearm
  32. Nine-gunshot suicide
  33. Suicide by a power drill
  34. Unusual methods of suicide: complexities in investigation
  35. Drowning in the bath tub after choking: Unusual death, accident or suicide? Reconstruction of an unusual fall
  36. An unusual suicide with parenteral copper sulphate poisoning
  37. Firearm suicide committed using an unusual combination of tandem missiles: a bullet, a nail, and a screw
  38. Planned complex suicide by self-poisoning and a manipulated blank revolver: remarkable findings due to #multiple gunshot wounds and self-made wooden projectiles.
  39. Suicide by driving an awl into the brain
  40. An unusual cause of suicide: henna (Lawsonia inermis Linn.)
  41. An unusual case of suicide by means of a pneumatic hammer
  42. An unusual suicide: asphyxia by methane gas
  43. An unusual case of child abuse homicide/suicide.
  44. Unusual suicide by electric current
  45. Suicide by more than 90 stab wounds including perforation of the skull
  46. Head impalement–An unusual form of suicide
  47. Self-impalement after thoracic stab wound. An unusual method of suicide in psychotic symptomatology].
  48. An unusual case of suicide: Three through-and-through bullet wounds of the heart
  49. An Unusual Case of Suicide by Broken Glass Pierced Through the Buttocks
  50. Suicide with a signal pen gun
  51. Suicide by inhalation of carbon monoxide in a residential fire
  52. An unusual method of suicide
  53. Suicide by electrocution with high-voltage current: An unusual way of suicide
  54. Unusual motivation in double suicide of a lesbian couple. Phenomenology, psychodynamics and influence of contemporary values
  55. Suicide by fire in a car trunk: a case with potential pitfalls
  56. Suicide due to caustic soda―a case report with some unusual complications
  57. Suicide with air gun. research in would ballistics of air-driven weapons
  58. An unusual death of a masochist: Accident or suicide?
  59. Suicide by burning barbecue charcoal
  60. Suicide by drowning after two gunshots to the head
  61. Suicide by nitrous oxide poisoning.
  62. An Unusual Case of Self‐inflicted Death in Childhood
  63. A peculiar case of suicide
  64. An Unusual Zip Gun Suicide—Medicolegal and Ballistic Examination
  65. Biting Through an Arteriovenous Hemodialysis Graft: An Unusual Method of Suicide
  66. Unusual intracranial stab wounds inflicted with metal tent stakes for a case involving a family murder suicide
  67. A planned complex suicide by gunshot and vehicular crash
  68. Complex suicide: an unusual case with six methods applied
  • Clearly, researchers in the field of suicide are constantly coming across novel ways that people come up with to kill themselves. However, maintaining such a list here at wikipedia violates WP:IINFO, because wikipedia is not a collection of indiscriminate information, no matter how well sourced. We would not, for example, create a list of rare cases of infection, even though such can be easily sourced here, with over 3,000 articles discussing cases of rare infections. We would also not create a List of beautiful women, even though many reliable sources regularly produce such lists. Finally, researching the medical literature has made it very clear to me that the definition of "unusual", even amongst medical researchers, varies widely, and in some cases it is tiny little details that earn the suicide the label of "unusual" (like, the person shot themself, but used a homemade gun; or, the person used a power tool; or the person stabbed themselves with something other than a knife, etc). The majority of these suicides would not fit into the pattern currently established in the article, because while there may be some tiny little variation of interest to suicide researchers, the death as a whole is not different (e.g. someone shot themselves in the head). We could do a similar search of the literature to discover unusual cases of cardiac arrest, lung cancer, pancreatic cancer, diabetes, heart failure, stroke, vehicular deaths, and all of the other "common" causes of death that nonetheless have cases where something "unusual" happens - for example, this article, [19] describes a baby who died when their mother was in a car accident. Most people would not find this unusual; unfortunate, but not that surprising - but the researchers haven't seen this very particular type of death before, so they wrote an article on it. Really, this pathway leads to madness - and I've only been looking under "unusual" - we could start doing searches under "tragic deaths" and generate a whole other list that could be beautifully sourced but ultimately unencyclopedic; then we could start searching Chinese literature, and french, and spanish, and come up with many thousands more. Death is a reality for all of us, and like life (and unlike movies), death is extremely common. India, which is the largest film producer in the world, produces around 2,000 films annually - but I would guesstimate there are 7.4 million Indians who die every year; at a global scale, roughly 150,000 people die per day. Where "unusual" is simply taken to mean "Researcher X hasn't seen that way of dying that very often", the number of potential entries on this list is thus limitless. Unless we apply some statistical rigor, which I don't see any way to do since the sources themselves don't apply such rigor to the deaths in question, the list cannot be salvaged.-- Obi-Wan Kenobi ( talk) 21:01, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Thanks for providing more evidence that unusual deaths can indeed be reliably sourced and are described in reliable publications. I agree the list could become huge, but this only means we have to split it into several lists to make it manageable. So that List of unusual deaths would become a list of lists. This calls for more articles on the topic therefore, not killing the only one we have so far. -- cyclopia speak! 21:42, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
Oh and please, Obiwankenobi, stop being so misleading in describing the links. This does not describe merely "a baby who died when their mother was in a car accident." - it describes the tragic but odd occurrence of such a baby dying still in utero because of head injuries in a case where the mother only sustained minor injuries. That's very different. -- cyclopia speak! 21:45, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Keep per Martin451, cyclopia and Joefromrandb's comments. Plus, I don't understand why Editors are acting like keeping this article is akin to the end of Wikipedia. I realize this is not a strong argument from me but I won't add any more verbiage to this wall of text AfD. Remember people, conciseness. Liz Read! Talk! 21:12, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. I don't really agree with WP:LISTN, but it passes that guideline as there are multiple books on the subject of unusual deaths. A tighter criteria for inclusion, though? Definitely. Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 22:07, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Keep but after undergoing a small trimming. I'm not too sure what should be removed, but there are a lot of deaths on this article, too many in my mind. The article is noteworthy enough and well-referenced enough to survive, just needs to be shorter. — Gyaro – Maguus— 23:29, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
the whole point is that there is no rational, objective basis on which to determine which items are eligible for the "small trimming" . do we trim it to List of 500 unusual deaths And then after those that are determined to be "maybe not quite as 'unusual' as some of the others" is the list then locked in the future so that no one can add any other entry? Would a new proposed entry then have to be voted on by the editors to determine which of the existing entries must be removed so that the new one can be added? Your position seems to note a fundamental flaw with the subject of the article and yet not propose that there is any way to deal with that flaw. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:50, 31 October 2013 (UTC) reply
... um, we've now got 132? Who trimmed 368 on "no rational, objective basis"? Martinevans123 ( talk) 00:00, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
Ok then, how about people bring up ones that they feel are not "unusual enough" on the talk page, and they get discussed there. New entries with questionable unusualness should also be discussed. Unfortunately, with this kind of thing, there cannot be a strict guideline. If it doesn't get trimmed due to every death having enough apparent "unusualness" to not be discussed, then so be it; I was just making a statement of "keep", a reason and what I think ought to be done to it to make it better, I was not attempting to provide a solution to my stated flaw in the article. — Gyaro – Maguus— 00:20, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
sorry, I've lost track. Martinevans123 ( talk) 00:29, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
(e/c) Have you looked at the talk page (and the voluminous archives)? there have been "discussions" on nearly every entry. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:32, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
Not properly (I now recall seeing about six archives), but I accept your point, but seriously, how else can it be solved? Unusualness is not something to which, say, a numeric value can be applied. You asked me to come up with a solution, I did, and so far, it is the best I have got and undoubtedly I will be unable to produce a better one. To be fair, most on there are unusual in one way or another anyway, cutting down the list will be difficult — Gyaro – Maguus— 00:41, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
You have laid your finger on the fundamental flaw of the article, that the premise "is not something to which, say, a numeric value can be applied." and so it ends up being an indiscriminate collection of information for which there are not, and given the lack of progress despite lengthy discussions, highly likely cannot be inclusion or exclusion criteria stated in an unambiguous and objective manner. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:51, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
So any list with a subjective and somewhat odd premise should be deleted, is that what you are implying? I feel this article, at whatever degree of trimmed-down-ness, is a notable topic, as a list of those whose reported deaths are not particularly normal, and is well-referenced. A few ought to be checked for reliable sources, and few most likely will not contain enough unusualness (but since there are 132, I really don't want to look through each and every one of them, and then come to a sensible conclusion on a few, then check the archives to see if it has already been discussed or not, then propose removal of a few), but overall, I feel the article has enough to easily qualify to survival, hence why I contributed to this discussion. Unfortunately, I do not have the solution to a seemingly unsolvable issue. — Gyaro – Maguus— 01:09, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
No, odd premise that have objective criteria are perfectly fine. odd premise that dont have objective criteria are not fine as outlined in the policies WP:IINFO . -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:32, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
Regardless, the topic is notable, and is viewed at least 2000 daily (one day in 90 under 2000 views) and most likely over 15,000 times a week – possibly inside the top 10,000 most viewed articles on a good week, definitely top 20,000 regardless. This figures mean it could be in the top 0.25% most viewed articles on the 'Pedia, and most definitely in the top 0.5%. Surely too popular to be deleted? Anyway, if you want a objective criteria, make it so that the deaths have to be mentioned in historical texts, in the media, etc., as long as it doesn't double with the lists listed at the top of the article. This basically includes all deaths on the article, and would probably allow for the list to double in size. And surely good notability overrules the fact that the list doesn't have an objective criteria? — Gyaro – Maguus— 13:35, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
uhhh no, "the people like it" is a type of argument specifically identified as not a reason to keep an article. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:17, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
And how is it any better from your stance? I'll admit, on second thoughts, the views argument isn't too strong. I do like the article, and I get the impression that others do as well, and I know I can't base my argument on that, and quite frankly, I am not doing so. I consider the article to be notable enough for inclusion. It is a collection of quite odd deaths, none of which make the people themselves notable, but simply this a collection is notable. People will want to know the oddest ways people have died. Do you not want people to find out information like this? I'll admit, I'm one of those who want to know odd ways people have died, and while I can't exactly explain this morbid fascination with it (I'm pretty sure no-one is hoping to emulate those on this list), people will want to read about it and it is not just that me and a lot of other people like it. And have you seen just how well referenced this article is? 180 references (quite a nice total), and EVERY entry referenced (one has just a dead link, another has one reliable and one unreliable source). A quick glance at the references makes it seem like the majority, if not all, of the references are reliable. What else do you want, Mr. IDON'TLIKEIT TRPoD? — Gyaro – Maguus— 16:26, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
My stance is not based on "I dont like it". my stance is based on "unusual" will never be more than WP:IINFO an indiscriminate collection of data. That it will always violate WP:NPOV in that there are no "experts on unusual deaths" that we can mirror their opinions in the article. and that WP:LSC requires an "objective and unambiguous" criteria for including or excluding candidates, and we do not have and highly likely cannot have. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:05, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
Hi GyaroMagnus - yes, I think most entries are sourced - there is little doubt that those people did die, and likely in the way described. The issue is with calling such deaths "unusual" - for example, we have King who fell off a horse, or a fellow who was struck by lightning. These sorts of things happen ALL the time. As such, the reason many deaths are described as "unusual" because there is something ironic about the death (for example, in the case of the lightning, was is "unusual" is that this fellow was afraid of being killed by lightning") - but if that's our standard, then everyone who died and was afraid of dying by X should merit inclusion in the list. As I've demonstrated earlier through search of medical literature, thousands of deaths are described as "unusual" in the medical literature, even if the death itself (like by heart attack, or a bullet to the head) it itself somewhat common - it is more the subjective assessment of some particular detail (e.g., 'this is an interesting case where the left ventricle shut down before the right one' or something) as being unusual - however with 150,000 deaths per day globally, the number of such cases is numbered in the tens of thousands, and as such "unusual" becomes yet another trivial, subjective adjective used to describe something which is so common, it happens to ALL of us.-- Obi-Wan Kenobi ( talk) 17:15, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
I understand. Personally, I dislike other lists that rely on a political and cultural POV, though others disagree. But such judgements are, frankly, inherent in the notability standards of Wikipedia itself. WP:GNG is a trap that lets in things that on any objective ground have less reason to be in than many examples that do not make it. There are different ideas about which deaths to include, as well as ideas of good taste. I get cross with people who want to exclude from Wikipedia things that I would hope to find there because they are not interested or are unfamiliar with that area of study. But lists of interesting facts are things that do give pleasure to users, appeal in general to WP editors, and I do not think that this one is really a problem. -- AJHingston ( talk) 17:42, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
To TRPoD and O-WK, how about we move the article to "List of reported unusual deaths" (or something similar)? Under this title, all entries will have to sourced well, new entries must be discussed before inclusion, and in the intro those unusual in medical literature can be stated to be not included. Any unusual death has to be noted/reported in a reliable book or a very reliable and serious news source. And things like the ironic lightning death should be removed for lack of unusualness (it really isn't unusual, it really should be removed), and those of a similar fashion. Others I feel should be removed: William Huskisson (under what is currently written there), Gareth Jones, Thomas Bayliss (like seriously, that needs to go), Edward Juchniewicz, Joe Buddy Caine, Brittanie Cecil and Steve Irwin. I would also mention a few others that are not so good (like Vladimir Komarov and Alexander Litvinenko). What all these don't have is much uniqueness or unusualness. Maybe even move to "List of unusual unique deaths" or List of reported unique unusual deaths"? Then you can remove even more. And Obi-Wan Kenobi, it is Maguus not Magnus. Apology accepted. — Gyaro – Maguus— 18:07, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
(1) Why wouldn't medical literature be included? Certainly, they are more qualified to comment on what is unusual than a random writer for the Fortean times. (2) What is a reliable book? Did you know, many of the "books" cited above are classified as "juvenile literature" (3) I tried to remove lightning death and several others, but was reverted. Why? Because some source, somewhere, used an adjective like unusual or bizarre to describe that particular death. That's the whole problem - if we go by sources, the list will be way too long and meaningless; if we do a post-hoc filter on sources, then the guardians of the article will revert and say "this is sourced!!" or accuse you of OR. I've previously stated that if we could get a very strong source that says a cause - not the circumstances mind you, but the cause - of death is unique and never before recorded, then that could make an encyclopedic list. For example, if a reliable source says "This is the only recorded case in history of someone dying as a result of being attacked by a beaver" - fine, we could have a list of causes of death claimed to be "unique" - but "unusual" is too broad, and too loosely and differently defined by every single person who uses it. As I mentioned above, we could easily source a list of deaths considered tragic - but do we really want to? If we don't want a list of tragic deaths, why do we want this one?-- Obi-Wan Kenobi ( talk) 18:44, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
if we go by sources, the list will be way too long and meaningless - That is your very own personal opinion. In any case, if a list is too long, it can be split -by date, for example.
we could easily source a list of deaths considered tragic - but do we really want to? - If possible, why shouldn't we want to? It keeps baffling me that you insist this paradoxical argument: you find that a given list could be a good, policy-compliant one, but this, instead of being an argument in favour of the new list, instead becomes a sort of argument to remove both of them. When I read you I read "Look, we could do a perfect article on this, however this would be an article I don't like, so we should get rid of this one too". It makes no sense whatsoever.-- cyclopia speak! 01:19, 2 November 2013 (UTC) reply
Obi-Wan, what exactly is wrong with a long article anyway? And meaningless? It is an article about unusual deaths. It isn't meaningless. I just felt that the article was too long originally. And here are my responses to your three points: (1) because including medical literature would allow the article to increase by about 100 times, and not that many are actually unusual. (2) <slight sarcastic tone>I don't know, maybe, a book by a reputable author who (a) has a history of writing down random things and/or (b) has actually investigated and looked into unusual deaths.</slight sarcastic tone> (3) Oh well. Maybe if you tried removing them when you weren't trying to get the whole article deleted, you may have been more successful. It is a bit like saying "can we take this set of bricks out of the wall? I wish to destroy the whole wall later." That will never work. The also take back my "unique" idea. Unique and unusual are not inherently the same thing, and many frivolous, non-notable and uninteresting entries would appear. A list of tragic deaths and a list of unusual deaths are different. Your premise is a bit like justifying the deletion of (the made-up article) "List of sexiest women" because we don't have an article on "List of good-looking women". It doesn't make sense, the more accurately-named Mr IDON'TLIKEIT Obi-Wan Kenobi. — Gyaro – Maguus— 02:28, 2 November 2013 (UTC) reply
No need to get all morbid Doomy, maybe what we need is a new Category? Martinevans123 ( talk) 08:55, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Keep per Martinevans123 Nicolas Perrault III ( talk) 00:55, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Of course there is a degree of subjectivity here, but so there is in quite a few lists in Wikipedia and the consensus is that is acceptable. Insisting on 'objective' criteria such as the use of the word 'unusual' by reliable sources does not help, because one might equally have chosen other descriptions, such as bizarre or having a rare cause, or sources in languages other than English. In the end, it depends on the subjective opinions of involved editors. Looking through the list I am not left with the feeling that the inclusion of these deaths is unreasonable, and the deaths could be said to be notable. I am sure that there are others that could equally well be included, perhaps in preference to some of those presently there, but Wikipedia is constantly changing. Sometimes the inclusion is not sufficiently explained - for example William Huskisson is described as the first to die in a railway accident, which is not strictly true. The real significance is that he was a prominent supporter of the building of the railway, the local MP, very much there as an official guest at the opening of the first passenger carrying railway, and carrying out his official duties when he was hit by a train. One might say that the death is ironic, whilst in itself being killed on the railway is not unusual, but there is a book about it by Simon Garfield - The Last Journey of William Huskisson which gives a pretty good qualification for inclusion here. It is, after all, pretty unusual to be killed at the official opening of something that you have yourself been instrumental in creating. I am sure a case can be made out for others. -- AJHingston ( talk) 12:47, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
    • there is not "some degree" of subjectivity, it is entirely subjective. And newly launched products going terribly wrong and injuring and killing their creators and proponents is not at all rare. Most dont become the subject of a book, but that doesnt make them any less rare. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:05, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Subjectivity is a continuum. If something really were "entirely subjective", that would mean that it would not be possible to conceive of anything more subjective, and this is of course not the case. Edwardx ( talk) 17:23, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
  • How about a belief that this 7th AfD discussion on this article is a valuable use of our time? Edwardx ( talk) 17:46, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Strong Keep Of course the article is not perfect and people will be able to argue that any inclusion criteria we could come up with are inherently somewhat subjective. BUT those who want to delete it seeem to be losing sight of the bigger picture. It is a fun article and its existence does attract wider interest in WP and it encourages people to visit and explore WP. And there are plenty of other articles that are much more problematic. It's a shame that we are wasting so much time on this (yet again) when we could be creating content. Edwardx ( talk) 13:37, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
  • There seem to be many editors who want Wikipedia to be serious and definitely not fun and they see this article as an embarrassment. Quite a few have very clearly said so. I think this may be a little unfortunate and perhaps short-sighted. Martinevans123 ( talk) 13:45, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Agreed. Too many editors seem to ignore the needs and interests of our users. Edwardx ( talk) 17:18, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
WP:THISISAFUNARTICLE is not a reason to keep. I note that we do have a great many "fun" articles, but they are for the most part in wikispace; such as Unusual articles. That would be a good place for this one as well. I'm quite sure a page full of pictures of naked actresses categorized by breast size would get a lot of hits, and would be easy to source, and there are many such lists on the internet, but we would never have such a list here. -- Obi-Wan Kenobi ( talk) 14:08, 1 November 2013 (UTC) reply
  • Procedural keep - The repeated nomination of this article violates WP:DELAFD, "It can be disruptive to repeatedly nominate a page in the hopes of getting a different outcome." Also keep in general, this topic is notable because it has been covered in reliable sources. -- Cerebellum ( talk) 01:44, 2 November 2013 (UTC) reply
per your WP:DELAFD "After a deletion debate concludes and the page is kept, users should allow a reasonable amount of time to pass before nominating the same page for deletion again, to give editors the time to improve the page" The last "keep" consensus was in 2009 and since the 3 years that have passed, the concerns that were identified by consensus back in 2007] STILL have not been addressed. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:56, 2 November 2013 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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