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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. There is consensus here that although entries in these lists may be individually verifiable, the topics as a whole do not have the coverage necessary for standalone lists. Vanamonde ( Talk) 00:06, 25 February 2019 (UTC) reply

List of professional ice hockey teams in North America by metropolitan area

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List of professional ice hockey teams in North America by metropolitan area (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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List article that seems to be a synthesis of other lists, namely List of American and Canadian cities by number of major professional sports franchises, List of ice hockey leagues#North America, and List of metropolitan statistical areas. The subject seems to fail WP:LISTN (as a "List of Xs in Y by Z") on its own merits in that the topic of metro area size with hockey teams is really only the subject of articles in Potential National Hockey League expansion, which obviously is already its own page. Note: metro ares with major league teams is definitely a GNG subject in that it is discussed when it comes to how many major league teams metro can support ( List of American and Canadian cities by number of major professional sports franchises). When it comes the minor leagues, the topic really only comes up in regards to potential venues, which is also already listed at List of indoor arenas in the United States, but not by size of metro area. Other than organizing a list by metro, it adds no other useful info that does not already exist in the comprehensive list List of professional sports teams in the United States and Canada. Yosemiter ( talk) 23:48, 16 February 2019 (UTC) reply

I am also nominating the following related pages for WP:SYNTH articles created at the same time:

List of professional baseball teams in North America by metropolitan area (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) which probably should mention other NA leagues like Dominican Professional Baseball League. The article's table is also so large, it makes the text near illegible in some cases and the minors are better documented at List of Minor League Baseball leagues and teams. Yosemiter ( talk) 23:48, 16 February 2019 (UTC) reply
Edit This one is actually older than the other two, (under the name List of professional baseball teams in the United States by city) but seems to have been the template for them. My nomination still stands though as WP:SYNTH. Yosemiter ( talk) 00:36, 17 February 2019 (UTC) reply
List of professional gridiron football teams in North America by metropolitan area (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) outside of the NFL, CFL, Arena Football League, Indoor Football League, reliable coverage spirals downwards as to what teams are actually active or even professional and not just semi-pro. Yosemiter ( talk) 23:48, 16 February 2019 (UTC) reply
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. Bakazaka ( talk) 01:25, 17 February 2019 (UTC) reply
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Baseball-related deletion discussions. Bakazaka ( talk) 01:25, 17 February 2019 (UTC) reply
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ice hockey-related deletion discussions. Bakazaka ( talk) 01:25, 17 February 2019 (UTC) reply
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Bakazaka ( talk) 01:25, 17 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Keep and relist all separately, topics although closely related have significantly different levels of potential notability.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 01:38, 17 February 2019 (UTC) reply
    • @ Paulmcdonald: Possibly separate, but even the one that has existed for years has never had any sources. What are your thoughts addressing my concern over WP:SYNTH? If you feel these absolutely need to be separate, I would like to see a proof that the minor league by metro area is even covered. Even the baseball one has a statement at the top that certain leagues are ignored because they are "lightly-attended... with varying team lineups from year to year." In other words, too low level to for an obscure list that claims to cover professional leagues. Mid and lower level gridiron and hockey are even less covered in media. Yosemiter ( talk) 03:48, 17 February 2019 (UTC) reply
      • Since you asked, I would argue that these are valid notable lists and that any documentation/sources missing from the articles are surmountable problems solved by editing rather than deletion -- I see no policy violation and no reason to delete. I don't buy the "synthesis" argument because this is not combining or drawing conclusions (if A and B is sourced, then C must happen but that's unsourced) but rather pooling multiple sources together to build a list. I haven't done it, but I'm confident that for each professional team on these lists one can find sources to say that TEAM X is based out of CITY Y and there it is--no original research necessary.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 04:13, 17 February 2019 (UTC) reply
        • From SYNTH: If "A" and "B" are sourced and A+B = "C", but "A+B" is not published a reliable source, then "C" is OR. Yes, lots of sources stating a team is in a city. And there are lots of sources that list city sizes and metropolitan rankings. There seems to be a lack of coverage for minor leagues that say "there are teams in said sport in these size cities" (outside of a few blogs like this one). That is all I am saying. Yosemiter ( talk) 04:51, 17 February 2019 (UTC) reply
          • In this case, what the list article provides is simple counting and sorting, and counting and sorting are not original research. I understand the "synth" argument, I just don't buy it.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 15:12, 17 February 2019 (UTC) reply
            • My understanding of COUNTSORT is that if an existing data set can be sorted, there is no reason not to. Since the topic is essentially "metros with professional [specific sport] teams", then it would be fine to sort by metro size. I am questioning whether "metros with professional [specific sport] teams", especially with the arbitrary limit of showing all metros that do NOT have professional [specific sport] teams and how the various leagues fit in for anything other than the major leagues, meets GNG. Otherwise, this is not an existing data set, it is a listcruft-y article created from other lists for the sole purpose to be sorted and COUNTSORT would not applicable. Yosemiter ( talk) 23:07, 17 February 2019 (UTC) reply
              • From WP:COUNTSORT: "If the counting, ranking, and/or sorting can be reasonably disputable then it likely at that point would be considered original research." The sorting really cannot be reasonably disputed that I can see. There is nothing in COUNTSORT that says all data points must come from the same source.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 03:34, 18 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. This information is relevant in areas of expansion, relocation, and as a general guide to see how metro size doesn't necessarily conform to who gets a team (see Winnipeg for example). I don't really see how this is original research at all, since metro size and locations of teams are very well established. In the case of minors, I often wonder how big the cities are who have different levels of minor league teams, and this table is the only page on Wikipedia that shows it so clearly. Jhn31 ( talk) 01:41, 17 February 2019 (UTC) reply
    • @ Jhn31: Well, wikipedia is not a general guide per WP:NOTSTATSBOOK, so the topic itself needs to be well covered in independent media. Making it a list because it's interesting is not enough. So combining two other known lists into one specific list is what we call original research by way of combination two subject to make a synthesized conclusion not covered in independent media. As to expansion, as I explained in my nomination, the NHL has its own page about it with all relevant sources (well as the expansion articles for each of the major leagues). There is far more to ANY professional league's expansion than just metro size (right ownership, appropriate venues, and possible conflict of competing sports such as why List of American and Canadian cities by number of major professional sports franchises is well covered). As to minor leagues, the same applies for locations. But I am challenging the existence of independent coverage on the subject of any level professional teams in North America by metropolitan area. Yosemiter ( talk) 03:48, 17 February 2019 (UTC) reply
      • You don't think it's well-covered where minor league teams' stadiums are located? Really?? And I don't need a patronizing explanation of what synthesis is. Jhn31 ( talk) 04:04, 17 February 2019 (UTC) reply
      • I don't see this as "combining two other known lists into one specific list" but simply sourcing the list article. And please be careful in saying that this is "what we call" anything. Each editor can only speak for themselves and not a larger group.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 04:17, 17 February 2019 (UTC) reply
        • Of course a team/stadium is sourced to a city, that is not my argument here. But that is not these lists. The subject of these lists are All teams [in a sport] by metro area. On an individual basis of a team (or even a specific league) = GNG covered (also the articles already exist for majors). As a list of all teams, at all levels, I do not see coverage as an entire subset for a sport. I did find a couple of blogs. (And sorry for the use of "we", I did in fact mean "I".) Yosemiter ( talk) 04:51, 17 February 2019 (UTC) reply
          • If we required one source for all content in any article, there would be no need for the article--we could just include a link to that source and there would be no need for content.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 15:10, 17 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Delete as WP:OR. Nobody groups teams by metropolitan area. Clarityfiend ( talk) 19:44, 17 February 2019 (UTC) reply
    • Wait, what? Do you think people think of the Rays as being from St. Petersburg, rather than the Tampa area? Or the Braves from out in Cobb County, rather than the Atlanta area? Or the Jets and Giants from East Rutherford, rather than the NYC area? Etc. Etc. Etc. for a pretty long list. Everyone thinks of teams by the general area they're from, not the specific municipality itself. An article that was listing teams by their actual city rather than their metro area would be silly trivia. This article lists the urban areas in the way that they're generally thought of. Jhn31 ( talk) 20:04, 17 February 2019 (UTC) reply
    • Conjecture has no place here... that is, unless you can provide irrefutable proof that "Nobody groups teams by metropolitan area" -- wait, at least SOMEBODY does... Cities in United States with Most Professional Sports Teams; Bleacher Report; Cities With the Most Successful Professional Sports Teams; The Cities With Too Few Sports Teams… yeah, somebody does... -- Paul McDonald ( talk) 21:44, 17 February 2019 (UTC) reply
      • Agreed with Paul McDonald, people do group MAJOR pro teams by metro. Also note, all those sources are for List of American and Canadian cities by number of major professional sports franchises, not by baseball, not by hockey, not by American football, etc. Most media fails to even talk about market area with minor leagues, and that is MY point of contention. Sources do not exist comparing the Kane County Cougars metro area with the Houston Astros, despite the Cougars being part of a larger metro (just as an example, not in specifics). These list articles just take the list of all teams and makes a new article so that it can be sorted in by metro, when outside of the major leagues, it is not normally done. Yosemiter ( talk) 21:58, 17 February 2019 (UTC) reply
        • Cities are not "metropolitan areas" as used in this list. Not even the most diehard Blackhawks fan says the team is based in the Chicago-Naperville-Elgin, IL-IN-WI MSA. Clarityfiend ( talk) 06:35, 19 February 2019 (UTC) reply
          • @ Clarityfiend:@ Paulmcdonald: I think you're getting too hung up on the exact name of the metro area. If we changed it to just say "Chicago," would that change your mind? I decided to use the official US government names of the metro areas because then there's no question of what counts as Chicago. But in your example, if the Blackhawks built a new arena out in the suburbs one day, they would still be thought of as a Chicago team. The (football) Jets and Giants are thought of as New York teams, not East Rutherford teams. The Atlanta Braves play in an unincorporated patch of land outside Atlanta, but they're still thought of as part of the Atlanta metro area. I totally disagree with your assertion -- I could turn your statement around and say "not even the most diehard Golden Knights fan thinks of his name as a Paradise team." Everyone associates the Golden Knights with the Las Vegas area. Jhn31 ( talk) 13:06, 19 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Delete all per nom. Not only is this an issue with WP:SYNTH and WP:OR but also the list is a non-notable cross categorisation. Ajf773 ( talk) 09:45, 18 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per nomination. – Sabbatino ( talk) 09:52, 18 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per nomination. It's honestly quite confusing, and the inclusion of cities without pro teams seems kind of redundant. Kaiser matias ( talk) 01:18, 19 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Keep per Paul McDonald. These should be relisted and considered separately. Lepricavark ( talk) 15:54, 19 February 2019 (UTC) reply
Greetings, Paul McDonald. The essay on arguments to be avoided is about general and bland arguments to the effect that something is or is not "encyclopaedic", a term that is indeed vague. I'm making the argument that the contested list does not impart any encyclopaedic value, an objective for all articles as detailed in the very first pillar of Wikipedia and to which I linked as a shortcut. Since it appears that the reference needs clarification, I specifically referred to the part about Wikipedia not being an indiscriminate collection of information, or a web directory, since these do not indeed impart encyclopaedic value whatsoever. Hope it's clear now. - The Gnome ( talk) 06:37, 23 February 2019 (UTC) reply
Thank you, but the lists are quite WP:DISCRIMINATE in their nature with precise definitions and requirements for inclusion. I don't see them as a directory at all either...-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 15:29, 23 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  • @ The Gnome: I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. Population of metro area is very relevant to professional sports teams. The Milwaukee Brewers, Kansas City Royals, Cincinnati Reds, etc., are often referred to as "small market" teams, and that's based on the size of their metro area, not the size of their cities proper. As previously stated, lots of teams play in the suburbs of the city they're named after – in the same metropolitan area, though. If you want a minor league example, my hometown of Jackson, MS, was considered for a Triple A baseball team a few years back. It would have played in the Pacific Coast League in a nice, compact division with the teams from New Orleans, Memphis, and Nashville and cut down on travel costs. But we didn't get one precisely because the market size of Jackson (95th) is so much smaller than those other three (46th, 42nd, and 36th) and most other AAA cities that it didn't happen, and that was due to metropolitan area size of Jackson, not the city proper. Finally, there is potential expansion and relocation in all 4 major sports leagues, and a huge contributor to that is the size of the metropolitan area. Jhn31 ( talk) 01:39, 23 February 2019 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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