It seems that this FAC has stalled somewhat, so I'd thought I'd offer some input of my own. Note that these comments are unresolved issues from my copyedit of this article for GA status; they were (rightly) deemed too picky for a GA review and thus left alone. Anyway, here we are at FAC and it seems that they might be appropriate in this situation. This is only the second time I've contributed at FAC, so I don't know whether or not addressing my concerns is necessary to fulfill the FA criteria; what I do know is that addressing them would make the article better.
Anyway, these comments are meant to give the nominator some ideas on how to further improve the article while the other reviewers get around to finishing their review of the article's prose. I will continue to watch this review page and the article itself.
AmericanLemming (
talk) 22:59, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
reply
- I'll admit, I did just copy these comments from the GA review. Anyway, I'll reread the article tomorrow and see which comments are still applicable and if I have any new ones. I've got an organic chemistry midterm tomorrow morning, so I won't be able to get back to you until tomorrow afternoon, roughly 24 hours from this timestamp.
AmericanLemming (
talk) 20:44, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
reply
Alright, I've now reread the article and copy-edited it again (as you can see by looking at the article's history). Additionally, I've collapsed most of my remaining GA comments, as they were either addressed or non-actionable. I apologize for not following the GA review quite as closely as I should have before posting these recommendations at FAC; I got rather busy with my studies. Anyway, the good news is you don't very many issues left from the GA review to address. The bad news is I found a few more issues during my latest copy-edit. Again, I don't know if addressing my concerns is necessary for FA status, but I do think taking them into consideration would further improve the article.
AmericanLemming (
talk) 06:28, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
reply
Recommendations left over from GA Review
First third
- "A widely feared overseer was Untersturmführer Franz Schwarz" I know it originally said "another widely feared overseer", implying that Eupen was a feared overseer. I don't opposed the original wording so long as you explain why Eupen was a feared overseer.
- Again, this looks like an already resolved point from our GA review. The revised sentence now reads: "A widely feared overseer was Untersturmführer Franz Schwarz, who would execute prisoners with a pickaxe or a hammer.[37]" The source spoke about Eupen as a feared overseer without explaining why and how exactly, quote (p. 74): "The camp commandant who ruled the entire time Treblinka I was in operation was Theodor van Eupen, known for his terrible brutality, and under him was Franz Schwarz..." (Kopówka & Rytel-Andrianik 2011) – PB
- "Additionally, trees were cut and the perimeter adjusted to fit the killing process" How was the perimeter adjusted to fit the killing process? I know you talk about it later, but this sentence leaves the uniformed reader (like me) rather confused for a while.
- It looks like you might have copied your comments from the GA review. Please make sure that your old suggestions are still relevant today. The revised sentence reads: "Additionally, trees were cut and the perimeter adjusted to fit the killing process and cremation introduced later.[34]" I thought this was behind us – PB
- Well, I've looked at it again, and I still stand by this comment. Perhaps you could say something like "trees were cut and the perimeter enlarged to increase the size of the camp and facilitate a higher volume of victims" or something to that effect.
AmericanLemming (
talk) 03:45, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
reply
- Added the buffer zone (aerial photo) constructed in 1943 – PB
- "associated with the mass burial of corpses only in 1943, when the Polish victims of the Soviet Katyn massacre" When in 1943 was the Katyn massacre unearthed?
- "Therefore, the orders to exhume corpses already buried at Treblinka and burn them instead came directly from the Nazi leadership." The mid-level Nazi leadership? The high-level Nazi leadership? Who exactly gave the orders?
- I assume, the high-level leadership (see above). Thanks – PB
Killing process
- "This killing process differed significantly from the method used at Auschwitz and Majdanek, where the poisonous gas Zyklon B was utilized." Any reason why Treblinka used carbon monoxide and not Zyklon B?
- I'm not sure. Just stating the facts – PB
Organization of the camp
- "Their big triangles made it impossible for new arrivals to blend in" The big triangles of the Desinfektionskommandos? Also, how would have new arrivals been able to blend in anyway, even without the big triangles?
- "sorted the belongings of victims who had been already "processed"" Obviously "processed" means "killed", but it might be unclear to some readers.
- " who separated quality items" Do you mean that they separated the high quality items from the low quality items?
- "The Camp 1 Wohnlager residential compound contained barracks for 700 Sonderkommandos, bringing their grand total to roughly one thousand at any given time" This sentence confuses me. Are you trying to say that the barracks was severely overcrowded?
- "There was a bruise rule in effect" Put in place by the camp leadership, I suppose? Was it a formal rule or just a habitual practice of the guards?
- "he would be called "clepsydra" (water clock) in the camp language" Why "water clock"? And what was the "camp language"? German? Yiddish? Hebrew? And who would call him "water clock"? The guards or the other prisoners?
Treblinka prisoner uprising
As a general comment, the first two paragraphs of "Treblinka prisoner uprising" are in need of much improvement. I think it's got all the necessary information; it's just not presented in a particularly coherent matter. As a second general comment, if they killed off all of the Sonderkommandos every few days, how did Lejcher managed to stick around for three months and plan the uprising?
- "He launched the uprising on a hot summer day when a group of Germans and some forty Ukrainians drove off to the Bug River for a swim.[79] He was remembered differently by survivors as either Dr. Lecher [sic],[77] or Dr. Leichert.[81] Lajcher was killed in the revolt." I suggest moving the first and the third sentences into the next paragraph; I think they fit better there.
- "the door to the arsenal near the train tracks was silently unlocked" Do we know who unlocked the door? If we don't, I think it's worth mentioning that.
- "They splashed gasoline in some buildings" Did they splash gasoline in or on the buildings? I think you want "on" here.
- "Chorążycki committed suicide on April 19 when faced with imminent capture" So if the Germans figured out that there was a plot, why didn't they kill everyone else who they thought was involved, too?
- They would have, given more time to investigate. This is why
Berek Lajcher launched the uprising immediately following the ambush and suicide of his predecessor. Please take a look if our own info still needs to be adjusted – PB
- But if Chorążycki committed suicide on April 19 and the uprising took place on August 2, how can you say Lacher launched the uprising immediately? The uprising took place slightly over two months after Chorążycki committed suicide.
AmericanLemming (
talk) 00:08, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
reply
- Thanks for catching that. I got confused. The
Warsaw Ghetto Uprising was underway and the Jewish partisans from the capital who were transported to Treblinka were ready and willing to fight to death. One new arrival killed Max Biala, another partisan detonated a grenade at the undressing area causing the SS and guards to go into panic. The partisans simply refused to go to the gas chambers. They were being machine-gunned thus making the Road to Heaven temporarily blocked. The plot was not discovered, but when all things put together, there was no time to wait any longer – PB
- Please give me a couple of hours. I have to rewrite that thing, but I'm goint out now – PB
- That's fine.
AmericanLemming (
talk) 01:57, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
reply
- I did what I could, please take a look. Unfortunately, some of the facts mentioned above are not properly dated at the sources, and therefore could not be used. Thanks again – PB
Alright, my three last remaining issues with this section are somewhat related, I think.
- 1. Since the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising lasted from 19 April 1943 until 16 May 1943, why did that postpone the 15 June 1943 uprising? Did it take the Germans that long to round up the surviving members of the resistance and send them to Treblinka? Our Wikipedia article on the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising says "sporadic resistance continued and the last skirmish took place on 5 June 1943 between Germans and a holdout group of armed Jews without connections to the resistance organizations".
- 2. Also, Chorążycki committed suicide the same day that the uprising began. I think that's worth noting.
- 3. Thirdly, the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising article also says "On 19 April 1943, the first day of the most significant period of the resistance, 7,000 Jews were transported from the Warsaw Ghetto to Treblinka extermination camp,[49] where, purportedly, they developed again into resistance groups, and then helped to plan and execute the revolt and mass escape of 2 August 1943." Do you have any source to confirm the second half of the sentence? (starting with "purportedly...)? It may be unverifiable. Anyway, what do you think about adding the ""On 19 April 1943, 7,000 Jews were transported from the Warsaw Ghetto to Treblinka extermination camp" part to this section? It seems to be backed up by a reliable citation.
- I'm beginning to feel like a detective searching for the answers. The second part of the sentence in wiki is not supported by any source at all. The date 19 April 1943 is listed by HolocaustResearchProject.org as the exact date of the last transport from Warsaw with no mention of any claim that the deportees "developed again into resistance groups" at Treblinka. Pure original research. I think the opposite was true. The deportation of 7,000 Jews on 19 April could have sparked the Uprising which began on the same day. Meanwhile, beginning in April, tens of thousands of burried corpses were first unearthed by the crawler excavator at Treblinka for mass cremation, per new SS orders. Could that be the real reason for the postponement? Let me see what else I can find – PB
- Are you still researching the causes of the uprising, or have you found everything about it you can in the sources you have?
AmericanLemming (
talk) 16:48, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
reply
- Thanks for asking, and yes, I'm finished with that. Please archive this whole section if you will. It is already shown that Chorążycki committed suicide on the same day, and personally I don't see a need for further expansion - PB
Operational command
- "It was evident that large-scale killings were happening nearby, which caused panic among the villagers." Did they think they were going to be killed too?
- The whole chapter in Kopówka & Rytel-Andrianik 2011 pp. 335–434 is devoted to witness testimonies from villagers who lived in constant fear of being killed if caught near the train tracks. Please look at it again – PB
- Just add a inline citation to Kopówka & Rytel-Andrianik after "who were afraid of being executed if they were caught near the train tracks", and then I'll consider this comment addressed.
AmericanLemming (
talk) 00:04, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
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- "Christian Wirth was assigned to move into Treblinka" Did he then stay there for an extended period of time?
- "Stangl had a reputation as a competent administrator with a good understanding of the project's objectives" I suppose the project's objectives were to kill all the Jews?
- "Stangl wanted his camp to look attractive, so he ordered the paths paved and flowers planted along the sides of Seidel Street, near camp headquarters and SS living quarters" Was Seidel Street near camp headquarters and SS living quarters, or were they three separate places where paths were paved and flowers were planted?
- I didn't write this. Somebody else did. I believe adj. "attractive" is from Stangl's own testimony. Anyhow, the "Kurt Seidel Straße" was the main road in the camp, named after Treblinka SS-man who built it (Kopówka & Rytel-Andrianik 2011 p. 78). Please take a look if this needs to be explaned – PB
- "Stangl accepted the extermination of the Jews as a fact" A fact as in it was happening or that it had to happen?
- "(actually, prisoner Walter Hirsch wrote them for him)." I assume he did so under no little duress? That is, he was forced to?
- I don't think he was forced to do so. Just trying to improve his own chances of survival – PB
- Well, if we have a source that says he was trying to improve his own chances of survival, then we should add that to the article. If we don't, then I'll consider this point non-actionable.
AmericanLemming (
talk) 00:12, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
reply
- My own musings, more less. Please consider this point non-actionable – PB
Death count
- "The last rail transport of Jews destined for death" I understand where this is coming from, but "destined for death" seems a little dramatic for a Wikipedia article. I can't think of any suitable replacements off the top of my head, but there's got to be some.
After the war
- "The new Soviet-installed government failed in its duty to preserve evidence of the crime" I think you mean moral duty, not legal duty, right? It might be more NPOV if you just take the "failed in its duty" part out. Then again, I haven't been around Wikipedia that long, so maybe not. How about "failed to preserve evidence of the crime"?
- "The scene has not been legally protected" Even to this very day? Otherwise, "the scene was not legally protected until..." would be more appropriate.
- "No funds were allocated for it by the Stalinist officials" Did they not allocate any funds to the design competition or the memorial? Neither?
- No money was given for anything – PB
- "No funds were allocated for it by the Stalinist officials. The committee disbanded in 1948. Many survivors left the country. In 1949 the town of Sokołów Podlaski took it upon itself to protect the camp with the new fence and a proper gate. A work crew was sent in to beautify the grounds with no archeological insight." I think all of these short, choppy sentences could be combined so that they're more coherent.
"the collapse of the Soviet empire" I understand many Poles have hard feelings toward the Soviet Union, but in the interest of NPOV it might be best to stick with "Soviet Union".
- "The exhibition house opened in 2006 following the collapse of the Soviet empire" The Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, so why did the exhibition house open so much later?
- Already resolved I believe. Changed to "collapse of communism". House of former custodian built in 1960 was renovated and turned into a museum only after his retirement. Years went by. Please confirm in section "After the war" – PB
Treblinka trials and footnotes
- " Twenty years after the war ended, eleven former SS camp personnel were brought to trial by West Germany, including commandant Kurt Franz." Any reason it took them so long to have the trial?
- This is one of those dark chapters of judicial history of Europe after World War II. Most former Nazis have never been tried, and instead held positions of political and economic prominence throughout Germany.
(Wiesenthal Center)
- Heinz Reinefarth went on to live the life of Riley similar to other Holocaust perpetrators including SS-Obersturmführer Strippel from Majdanek, and Oberscharführer Fiedler from Chelmno. Reinefarth was elected Mayor of Westerland and in 1962 member of parliament (Landtag) of Schleswig-Holstein. After his term ended in 1967, he worked as a respected lawyer. – PB
- "Gustav Munzberger from Gas Chambers received 12 years, Franz Suchomel (Gold and Money) 7 years, Otto Stadie (Operation) 6 years, Erwin Lambert (Gas Chambers) 4 years, Albert Rum (Totenlager) 3 years. Otto Horn (Corpse Detail) was acquitted and set free" I understand that German capitalizes all nouns (I'm a German major, for crying out loud. I should know that.) However, generally nouns are not capitalized in English. Any reason why they're capitalized here?
- Already discussed at GAN and resolved. Please look back – PB
- "but Austria did not issue a warrant for Stangl's arrest until 1961." Any reason why it took them so long?
- Footnotes: Make sure that all access dates are all DMY (4 July 2013) and not MDY (July 4, 2013)! I think some of them are and some of them aren't.
New FAC Comments
Lead
- "The new exhibition centre located at the camp opened in 2006 after the collapse of the Soviet empire" I still think "Soviet Union" is more NPOV than "Soviet empire".
Background
- "Majdanek and Auschwitz": when did they begin operating?
- "near the Małkinia Górna railway junction connecting major cities with Łopuszyński's gravel mine located 6 kilometres (3.7 mi) from the Treblinka town railroad station" So the railway junction connects major cities OR major cities to the gravel mine OR major cities to Treblinka? I'm sorry, but this sentence leaves me very confused...
- "Treblinka I operated from June 1941 until 23 July 1944" Sso we don’t know exactly when in June 1941 it started operating?
- "The entire camp, which was either 17 hectares (42 acres)[38] or 13.5 hectares (33 acres) in size (sources vary):" The entire camp, as in all of Treblinka II, or the entire camp, as in all of Treblinka I and II?
- "the main road within the campgrounds" I understand what you're getting at here, but when I hear the word "campgrounds" I think of a place where people go on the weekend to have fun with family and friends and enjoy nature. I don't think that's the connotation you want to come across here...
- "All buildings contained the clothing and belongings of prisoners?" So does that include the undressing barracks, then?
- "Mentz single-handedly executed thousands of Jews in there" So was the open-excavation trench inside the small barracks?
- "The same trench was also used to burn loads of identity papers deposited by new arrivals" The new arrivals didn't hand over their identity papers there, they did so at the fake train station, right?
Killing process
You mention Stangl by his last name only without linking his name, even though this is the first time he's mentioned in the article. I suggest giving his full name, mentioning his status as the camp commandant, and linking his name.
- Stangl is linked in paragraph preceeding the "Killing process" – PB
Organization of the camp
- "The red unit (Kommando Rot), which was the biggest squad, unpacked and sorted the belongings of victims who had been already "processed"." The way you word it now, it sound like some of the victims unpacked and sorted their own belonging, which isn't what I think you're trying to say. How about "unpacked and sorted the belongings of victims after they had been "processed""?
- "A different work detail was responsible for the upkeep of Treblinka II": first, don't you mean Treblinka I, and second, why is Treblinka II italicized here when it isn’t anywhere else?
- All of the above has been taken care of. Please double check if you want – PB
Operational command
- "His deputy was SS-Hauptscharführer Fritz Küttner who maintained a net of Sonderkommando informers and did the hands-on killings." I think you mean "network"?
Treblinka prisoner uprising
"The Jews of Treblinka became increasingly concerned about their own fate" I think you mean only those in the Sonderkommando who were most resilient to stress? The vast majority of Jews were killed within hours of arrival, and most of the Sonderkommando Jews were killed within a few days.
AmericanLemming (
talk) 04:31, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
After the war
reply
- "The sculpture represents the trend toward large avant-garde forms introduced in the 1960s." The trend in Poland, in the world, in the West, in Eastern Europe? Where was this trend taking place?
Individuals responsible
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