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Keep I have populated the category accordingly. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 13:22, 4 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale: Duplicate category, both of these should logically include exactly the same pages
- car chasm (
talk) 21:07, 26 May 2023 (UTC)reply
I'm skeptical that there's enough content. That organization looks fine but given the names associated with
Society for Consciousness Studies i now think the specific term "consciousness studies" also might have a bit of
WP:FRINGE associations as well. Deepak Chopra, the integral theorists, etc. probably don't belong in a category with David Chalmers.
- car chasm (
talk) 16:13, 27 May 2023 (UTC)reply
See my note below pertinent to the above reply.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 03:34, 29 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge for NowConsciousness studies is a redirect that points to
Consciousness, and not to a specific section even. Maybe there is a defining distinction here, but it needs to be grounded in a well sourced main article to prevent this from being
WP:SUBJECTIVECAT. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 03:24, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose merge, the nominator has removed long-term entrants of the consciousness categories and is instigating an ongoing edit war over entrants. Because of this and an ongoing discussion at the fringe Wikiproject I don't trust them to make a merge without deleting much of the information.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 03:33, 29 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Didn't know that (I keep far away from bots and tools, being Amish /s). I still oppose per the fact that some of the categories related to consciousness are being currently depleted of entrants.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 15:16, 29 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Agree with Merge If the main articles are merged, makes sense for the categories should be merged.
jps (
talk) 07:41, 29 May 2023 (UTC)reply
My 1st choice would still be a merge but a partial merge would still be an improvement over the status quo. If there is not a consensus for a merge, this would be my 2nd choice. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 14:09, 29 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Same. I think a merge is preferable, but a (manual) merge of all but the organization or academic journal pages up to
Category:Consciousness would still be better than not doing that. I think we'd want to rename the category if that were the consensus though, so we don't end up with more pages that belong in the parent category in the future.
- car chasm (
talk) 18:33, 29 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Genderless or non-binary video game characters
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Nominator's rationale: The idea a character lacks a gender
is not defining of the character. Beyond that, there is no character in the category who is provably non-binary, so it consists of
original research. All we know is that their gender is not told to the player.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 20:35, 26 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose (edit: I now favour Rename to
Category:Non-binary video game characters, see below) Gender is generally a defining characteristic, ergo characters of canonically unspecified, ambiguous, or non-binary gender have a
WP:DEFINING gender. A character like
Lavos doesn't seem to fit here unless there's a
WP:RS that can be added to the article so support the claim that Lavos doesn't have a gender, but
Nights_(character) does have such a sourced claim, so that page does fit. And it seems like plenty of the pages in
Category:Fictional non-binary people are video game characters with similarly supported sourced claims, such as
Toad (Nintendo), so this one should be a subcategory of that.
- car chasm (
talk) 21:39, 26 May 2023 (UTC)reply
First of all, I am not supporting the existence of gendered categories, in fact I nominated them for deletion as well, but community consensus at CfD was that they should be kept and are defining. It was not my call. However, there are not enough provably non-binary characters to fill a category such as this, and simply having an unknown gender is not the same thing. Characters of indeterminate gender do not fall under the umbrella.
P.S. 343 Guilty Spark, at least, used to be
a male human before being turned into an AI.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 21:34, 26 May 2023 (UTC)reply
community consensus at CfD was that they should be kept and are defining Well then, what are you nominating this one for? Seems like you're unwilling to accept a previous consensus reached.
not enough provably non-binary characters to fill a category such as this 4 items does not make a
WP:SMALLCAT.
unknown gender / indeterminate gender that's different. Genderless = no gender. Non-binary = a gender other than "male" or "female". These are known/determined characteristics.
used to be that's not the question. The question is what gender the robot 343 Guilty Spark is. You haven't "proven" anything. You can't even make the very first item in
Category:Male characters in video games comply to the criteria in your own rationale. This nomination is going nowhere, sorry.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 22:37, 26 May 2023 (UTC)reply
PS: If 343 Guilty Spark "used to be" male, but no longer, maybe they actually belong in this category.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 22:49, 26 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose deletion per other arguments, Support recategorizing 343 Guilty Spark per Nederlandse Leeuw. -
Cukie Gherkin (
talk) 02:25, 27 May 2023 (UTC)reply
P.S. The article
343 Guilty Spark, says "he was originally created from the mind of a human being". This has nothing to do with gender.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:51, 27 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename to
Category:Non-binary video game characters per Marcocapelle. This is better than a simple Keep. Nom also suggested the very same catname at
Category talk:Genderless or non-binary video game characters#About the category's title. I think nom and you have a point that "unknown gender / indeterminate gender / unspecified gender" may be
WP:NONDEFINING, so such items should not be put into this category per
WP:OCMISC. (Maybe
343 Guilty Spark is an example of that, or simply an item to which "gender" doesn't apply because it's a robot?). I think
The Master (Fallout) is an example of ambiguous gender (mentioned by car chasm): The Fallout development team created the character concept as a synthesis of a man, a woman, and a computer terminal mutated together. This is not unknown/indeterminate/unspecified, because information about the subject's gender is provided. This readily falls within the spectrum of
non-binary gender.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 09:17, 27 May 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Carchasm @
Cukie Gherkin We three agree about keeping the category, but what do you think about renaming it without the words "genderless and" in it? I think Marcocapelle has a good point, the same name was already proposed by nom Zxcvbnm, and creator Kung Fu Man seemed to be unsure about "genderless", and open to changing the name into something else.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 09:47, 27 May 2023 (UTC)reply
I think that's probably fine; I just walk a fine line on such categorization, as I feel that there is some grey area on defining non-binary. Like, is a character whose society or species does not recognize gender as a concept non-binary since it exists outside of the spectrum? This isn't me objecting, by the by, just my reasoning. -
Cukie Gherkin (
talk) 09:53, 27 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Good point, I agree. The video game's world thinking about gender may be different from our real-world thinking about gender, or not have any concept of gender at all.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 15:01, 27 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Observation This is
the only category on English Wikipedia with the word "genderless" in it, so it is unusual and would need justification.
Genderlessness redirects to
Non-binary gender. This seems to support the Rename argument made by Marcocapelle, and earlier by nom Zxcvbnm at at the category talk page. Creator Kung Fu Man already considered on the talk page that "genderless" might not be the best description, and was open to alternatives. Seems like the solution is obvious.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 09:28, 27 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Passage hurlers
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Merge as duplicate. (Will reconsider if anyone comes forward to confirm a distinction.) -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 03:27, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Subcats of People from Cobh
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Merge per nom - I have managed to find a few additions both to the Sportspeople and the People, but still not enough to justify a split.
Crowsus (
talk) 21:32, 26 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom.
Oculi (
talk) 13:07, 27 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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International baseball competitions
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Merge for Now with no objection to recreation if we ever get to 5+ articles. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 03:31, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Ice hockey players by team and country
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The result of the discussion was:merge to
Category:Ice hockey players by club. In my opinion, the arguments based on consistency and the small size of the upper layer, to which the nominated category will be merged, outweigh any concerns about the proposed merge target.
(non-admin closure) –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 12:39, 4 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Years in Canada
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Nominator's rationale: During this time Canada was a French and British colony/province. Not enough content per year to warrant this by year tree prior to the
Upper Canada/
Lower Canada split. Merge per
WP:SMALLCAT. –
Aidan721 (
talk) 16:24, 26 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Conceptually support per
WP:SMALLCAT. I do not know enough about Canadian history to check whether the merge targets are correct.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:01, 26 May 2023 (UTC)reply
GenerallyFully Support But the 1763 one should also be merged to
Category:1763 in the British Empire and the earlier dates manually checked for any Hudson's Bay Company/Rupert's Land articles. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 03:55, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
I've updated 1763 to be merged to both New France and the British Empire. And I have already manually checked that none of the prior years include any Rupert's Land articles. –
Aidan721 (
talk) 23:56, 29 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Professional sports people
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Nominator's rationale: A big chunk of the sportspeople with articles are professional. Also this category combines sports business professionals and sportspeople on professional tours.
Kaffet i halsen (
talk) 16:22, 26 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Amputee football people
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Note: This discussion has been included in
WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions.
GiantSnowman 10:27, 27 May 2023 (UTC)reply
The name of the sport is
amputee football, so "amputee association football players" would not be an appropriate title.
S.A. Julio (
talk) 19:33, 30 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Expatriates
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The result of the discussion was:merge with manual review to avoid redundant categorizations.
(non-admin closure) –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 01:10, 4 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment not sure how smart the bot is, but some of these will produce unhelpful results: Faroese in Spain, for example, will upmerge to two categories, Faroese expatriates and Expatriates in Spain, which already have subcategories present in the relevant article, i.e Faroese expatriate women's footballers and Expatriate women's footballers in Spain. Will there be any sort of follow up process to tidy that up?
Crowsus (
talk) 18:48, 26 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Upmerge for Now with no objection to recreating any that grow to 5+ articles. (Support manual review to ensure intended outcome.) -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 19:42, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Comment: How am I (or anyone else) meant to grow these to 5 if they're deleted after 5 weeks of existence as I'm working through various inadequately categorised topics?
Crowsus (
talk) 02:01, 6 June 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Crowsus: the categories are not deleted but merged, so the former content is still available in the parent categories.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:12, 6 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, but if there happens to be e.g an Icelandic male footballer, female footballer, ice hockey player, basketball player, handball player and volleyball player in the Czech Republic, they will each appear in the two parent expat categories but there is no way of knowing they would make a numerically valid set of 6 sportspeople, and editors are not being given the chance to build them up due to smallcat purges.
Crowsus (
talk) 06:32, 6 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Petscan does exactly what you want; the intersection of Icelandic expatriates and expatriates in the Czech Republic is listed
here. (I haven't nominated any sportspeople or ambassador categories.)
Oculi (
talk) 14:45, 9 June 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Oculi: thanks very much, that is an interesting tool I wasn't aware of (experimented with Belgians in Germany as a random pairing and have been able to add 10 eligible articles). Unfortunately it can't help with those where expat cats of any level have been neglected entirely, but I suppose I could look at leagues or sports of the relevant countries if I was really desperate to find more - I might experiment on that with Icelanders in the Czech Republic, but there probably won't be a great deal for that pairing even with missing categories.
Crowsus (
talk) 06:49, 10 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale:寒吉 (
talk) 12:43, 26 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge Although the nominator failed to advance a rationale, these seem to be the same team under different names used at different times. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 01:09, 4 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Australian Olympic coaches
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Nominator's rationale: All American coaches in the category are not American people et cetera. It is possible that Olympic coach is too broad, but that would need to take
Category:Olympic coaches and
Category:Paralympic coaches in consideration. For national team coaches, their role as national team coaches are more defining than for coaching teams of the same NOC, coaches of individual sportspeople are hard to define.
Kaffet i halsen (
talk) 11:24, 26 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Support in principle. To me "Coaches of Olympic competitors for Fooland" is unnecessarily long. I'd prefer "Olympic coaches for Fooland". But I agree that "Fooian Olympic coaches" is misleading as it implied the nationality of the coaches whereas it's implying a representative country. –
Aidan721 (
talk) 13:29, 26 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Support Olympic coaches for Fooland per Aidan721. Perhaps even more concise would be to simply replace Fooian by Fooland, e.g.
Category:Germany Olympic coaches,
Category:United States Olympic coaches. But I can readily see the problem, because "New Zealand" is often used as an adjective, as in this case already, and so is "United States". So Olympic coaches for Fooland is a better option.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 15:47, 26 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Support Olympic coaches for Fooland, current name structure definitely needs changed.
Crowsus (
talk) 19:52, 26 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Alt Rename to Olympic coaches for Fooland per Aidan721. Addresses the legitimate ethnicity vs country issue in the nom but isn't so wordy. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 04:35, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Olympic team doctors
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Category:Queen of the Universe contestants
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Nominator's rationale: Per all the other ones, these people were already famous, so this fails
WP:PERFCAT. --
woodensuperman 10:51, 26 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Olympic competitors for Northern Rhodesia
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Nominator's rationale: Wikipedia articles (
1,
2),
IOC and
Olympedia consider Northern Rhodesia and Zambia the same. Similar cases have one category.
Kaffet i halsen (
talk) 08:53, 26 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Olympic ice hockey players for North Korea
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Support, if there are future combined entries in other years and events I would suggest these be moved into a Category:Olympic ice hockey players for Korea cat, although that would be unnecessary at present.
Crowsus (
talk) 20:00, 26 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Olympic tug of war competitors for Germany
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Ancient rulers by century and continent
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Nominator's rationale: manually merge/rename/re-parent, for the first two: redundant category layer with only two subcategories each for Europe and Asia. For the others: rename per actual content, all articles are about monarchs.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:53, 26 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Support per nom. Thanks for sorting this out. This will be another important step in the right direction of making these trees more specific and defining.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 20:14, 26 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Support The parent categories should match the child categories to aid navigation. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 04:38, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
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Babylonian kings after 539 BC
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Oppose What does the Neo-Babylonian Empire have to do with anything?
Babylon as a city continued to be an administrative center, the Babylonians kept writing regnal lists, and the
List of kings of Babylon continues until either 141 BC or 224 AD.
Dimadick (
talk) 08:46, 26 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom. These people were not titled Babylonian kings, they were kings/monarchs for other empires which are already categorized. –
Aidan721 (
talk) 13:41, 26 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename all to
Category:Xth-century kings of Babylon. As Dimadick said, the Seleucid and Persian monarchs kept calling themselves "king of Babylon", it was title acquired by conquest and annexation, if a titular / symbolic one. Aidan is correct that they weren't "Babylonian" (at least not in the sense of an "ethnicity" or "nationality"), so to avoid confusion, the obvious solution is to go for "kings of Babylon" per Suggestion B (co-developed by Marcocapelle and me): we rename/rescope all Fooian monarchs to Monarchs of Foo, and take them out of the "People by nationality" tree. (In this case we don't have to do the latter;
Category:Babylonian people is already in
Category:People by former country). Cheers,Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 20:38, 26 May 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Nederlandse Leeuw: I do not question the fact that they called themselves "king of Babylon". However, we categorize based on
WP:DEFINING characteristics and no historian is going to refer to these kings as "kings of Babylon".
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:15, 27 May 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Marcocapelle Well, not primarily, no, just like we wouldn't primarily refer to
Napoleon as "King of Italy", even though he was; he is mentioned that in his infobox and is categorised as such.
Delete per
WP:NONDEF. After
Otto I became King of Italy in 961 and Holy Roman Emperor in 962, the kingdom of Italy became fully integrated in the Holy Roman Empire and "King of Italy" was a mere duplicate title of the Holy Roman Emperors/German kings. In many articles about Holy Roman Emperors the title King of Italy is not even mentioned in the main text. There is only one exception, Arduin of Ivrea, who ruled independently 1002-1014, but he is already directly in
Category:Kings of Italy. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:00, 27 July 2019
The result of the discussion was: delete. MER-C 09:34, 4 August 2019
Kinda makes sense. Okay I'll just take that look in my reference works to see if I'm changing my mind.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 07:30, 27 May 2023 (UTC)reply
"King of Italy after the 10th century is a nice analogy of non-definingness.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:32, 27 May 2023 (UTC)reply
L. de Blois & R.J. van der Spek, Een kennismaking met de Oude Wereld (2004). Bussum: Uitgeverij Coutinho. say on p. 44–45 that
Tiglath-Pileser III (r. 745–727 BCE) still had himself crowned as Babylonian king, and participated in the accompanying Babylonian rituals. This respect for Babylonian culture may be explained by the Assyrians' (...) So
Category:8th-century BC Babylonian kings were certainly still a thing of significance. This is a theme in this reference work: foreign conquerors would always respect Babylonian traditions and reign over the city and its realm in a kind of personal union. But p. 47 says:
The last Babylonian king,
Nabonidus, was a strange man. (...) This all caused due resentment in Babylon. The city thus became an easy prey for the new power from the east: Persia. P. 48 continues:
In Babylon, there was resentment about the reign of Nabonidus and
Belshazzar. Many hoped a power takeover by
Cyrus would improve things. Cyrus aptly used this in his propaganda. Indeed, he showed respect for Babylon and its traditions. Babylon was not destroyed, and the cult of
Marduk could continue. In that regard, however, Cyrus did not act much different from most Assyrian kings.
So, de Blois & van der Spek call Nabonidus the last Babylonian king, and unlike with Tiglath-Pileser III, they do not explicitly say whether Cyrus had himself crowned as Babylonian king or not. But the respect shown for Babylon and its traditions is directly linked with most Assyrian kings which conquered Babylon in the past (like Tiglath-Pileser III), and which they do call Babylonian kings. So do they consider Cyrus a Babylonian king or not? If yes, what makes Nabonidus the last Babylonian king? If they mean the last independent/sovereign Babylonian king, they may have a point, which you also made about the kings of Italy. Hah, well, it's interesting. This takes me back to the early days of studying history in college. :)
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 08:08, 27 May 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Marcocapelle In the
Behistun Inscription,
Darius the Great calls himself inter alia "king of Babylon": King Darius says: These are the countries which are subject unto me, and by the grace of Ahuramazda, I became king of them: Persia [Pârsa], Elam [Ûvja], Babylonia [Bâbiruš], Assyria [Athurâ], (...)
He also called rebel king of Babylon
Nebuchadnezzar III, who (falsely) claimed to be a son of Nabonidus, a liar: This is Nidintu-Bêl. He lied, saying "I am Nebuchadnezzar, the son of Nabonidus. I am king of Babylon." (I guess that makes Nidintu-Bêl similar to
Andriscus, who (probably falsely) claimed to be a grandson of
Perseus of Macedon and called himself "Philip VI").
However, de Blois & van der Spek indicate on p. 49:
Before [Darius], the (Persian) empire had been divided into superprovinces ('satrapies'). For example, the former Neo-Babylonian empire was one satrapy. Darius reorganised this division and created some twenty smaller satrapies (...). A satrapy was governed by a governor ('satrap'). So it becomes clear that Babylon(ia) was essentially annexed by either Cyrus or Cambyses II already and made into a satrapy i.e. province with a satrap i.e. non-dynastic governor, and Darius just further dismembered it into yet smaller provinces. Seems like "King of Babylon" was pretty much titular by then; an honorific that no longer meant anything, and certainly not a personal union between theoretically equal and independent/sovereign kingdoms.
Alright, I'm changing my mind and support delete per nom. Thanks for challenging me!
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 08:39, 27 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete While this title may have been self styled into secondary titles, this is no longer defining after the fall of the empire. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 04:43, 28 May 2023 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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Category:Marina Sena
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary eponymous category for an article for one album which is already appropriately categorized.
WP:OCEPONStarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 00:53, 26 May 2023 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Books by Celeste Buckingham
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talk page or in a
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Nominator's rationale: Category only contains one item and is unlikely to grow, thus currently unnecessary.
WP:NONDEF,
WP:SMALLForsythiaJo (
talk) 03:30, 27 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom. The book is already in a nationality and genre tree, so no need to merge.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:10, 27 May 2023 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Books by Carmel Buckingham
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Nominator's rationale: Author doesn't even have their own article, and category only contains one item.
WP:GNG.
ForsythiaJo (
talk) 03:30, 27 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom. The book is already in a nationality and genre tree, so no need to merge.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:11, 27 May 2023 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.