The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:merge and redirect. –
FayenaticLondon 22:40, 11 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Partially agree. Category was created as a direct analogue of
Category:Redirects with possibilities, and I think it should have an analogous title. That said, I was not aware the other cat existed, so there ALSO seems to be a problem with visibility. Why the long name?
Samsara 20:57, 17 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Merge, since the scope seems identical, and with potential should be the final name, since it's much shorter and since it's in accord with the R cat.
Nyttend (
talk) 23:32, 17 July 2017 (UTC)reply
No. I think, with a redirect, it's a bit more apparent what the "possibility" is – to turn the page into its own article. With dabs, it doesn't seem as obvious that "possibility" means "make a BCA with this title". It's a subtle distinction, and you might feel the line doesn't belong there, but that's where my instinct puts it. —
swpbT 19:16, 20 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Merge per Nyttend - "with potential" should be the final name.
Samsara 14:15, 21 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Merge and keep the longer name. "With potential" is too vague. —
Xezbeth (
talk) 07:03, 28 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Merge and keep the longer name. The harm of a longer title is less than the harm of an ambiguous title.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:12, 1 August 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Deadpan comedians
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:delete. –
FayenaticLondon 22:46, 11 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: I don't strongly feel that this cat should be deleted or kept. However, we currently don't have any other cats sorting comedians by comedy style. I want to establish a precedent here. If this cat is kept, we should make other cats for other styles of comedy. However, I don't want to go through the process of making all those cats if they're just going to be deleted.
JDDJS (
talk) 19:45, 17 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Support deletion Keep: Update: I had not read
WP:NOTDUP, but in light of it support keeping this. Although I originally made this category and spent a lot of time confirming that those in it belonged (it was split out of
deadpan), @
Northamerica1000: also split off
a list version which also features more accessible citations. I would not be opposed to deleting the category as long as the list remained, although I believe that your rationale, however, could also be applied to the list (unless there is already a precedent for this sort of thing by list?) which might require more discussion.
Mehmuffin (
talk) 03:15, 18 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete per
WP:NON-DEFINING. Most comedians use a variety of styles and techniques in the course of their careers, and in most cases it is not
WP:DEFINING that they sometimes made some use of a particular style.
That's the problem, with his sort of category by style. Either it
Lumps in somebody who used this technique with the mainstay of their career along comedians whee one reviewer somewhere has described one performance as "deadpan" .. or
it relies on editors making an
WP:ARBITRARYCAT or
WP:SUBJECTIVECAT choice is needed about how much of the categorised attribute is needed for inclusion.
The list can be developed to explain more about a perfomer's use of deadpan, but the category cannot. Categories are un-annotated bare listings, with a binary choice between inclusion and omission.
Note that some of the editors commenting above have misunderstood
WP:NOTDUP. It is merely a warning not to delete a category simply because there is also a list, or vice versa. It does not mean that every list axiomatically merits a corresponding category.
This is spelt out further up the same page: "there may be circumstances where consensus determines that one or more methods of presenting information is inappropriate for Wikipedia. For instance, the guideline on overcategorization sets out a number of situations in which consensus has consistently determined that categories should not be used." --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 13:04, 20 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete per BrownHairedGirl; this type of category is way too slippery to maintain usefully. —
swpbT 13:16, 20 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete per the girl with the brown hair, she basically said what I wanted to say with much more validity to her arguments. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist(Speak quickly)(Follow my trail) 05:42, 24 July 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Anime-influenced animation
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:rename to
Category:Anime-influenced Western animation. If there are some works from Asia or Africa then feel free to split to an intervening parent Non-Japanese animation influenced by anime. –
FayenaticLondon 23:38, 11 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Per the recent
discussion regarding manga-influenced comics, this category seems inappropriate to me because one could argue that all anime should be included since, well, anime is animation, and of course would be anime-influenced as well. Perhaps we could rename it to "Anime-influenced Western animation", but I don't think such clunky terminology is necessary. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist(Speak quickly)(Follow my trail) 08:11, 17 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Oppose We're not using the Japanese definition of anime where it means all animation.
AngusWOOF (
bark •
sniff) 16:15, 20 July 2017 (UTC)reply
That wasn't my argument. Defining "anime" here as "Japanese animation", my point is that Japanese animation is influenced by Japanese animation, and therefore all anime is valid for inclusion in the category, which would render it useless. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist(Speak quickly)(Follow my trail) 05:38, 24 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Changing above vote to Rename to Anime-influenced Western animation. Having such a category is still important than downright deletion.
AngusWOOF (
bark •
sniff) 02:44, 4 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Oppose The most common term for Anime in the Western world is that it originates in Japan. -
Knowledgekid87 (
talk) 01:40, 21 July 2017 (UTC)reply
The category as currently named, however, does not distinguish between Japanese animation and non-Japanese animation. At the most, it's a mere implication. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist(Speak quickly)(Follow my trail) 05:38, 24 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Oppose Some people like anime. America needs to imitate anime more often. -
Jtarvin (
talk)
@
Jtarvin: That is not a valid argument. If you wish to express support for keeping the category, please explain, preferably using Wikipedia policy and guidelines, how it would benefit the encyclopedia contrary to my claim that it solves nothing for us. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist(Speak quickly)(Follow my trail) 05:28, 24 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Nominator is entirely correct that the category name contains a sort of a loop reasoning. However deletion may go too far, the second alternative of renaming the category to contain "western" may be better.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:54, 24 July 2017 (UTC)reply
I will admit it would be more valid to keep this category compared to the one I linked to that was deleted - we do, after all, have an article on this category's subject, unlike the other category. That being said, while a rename would be preferable, I think "western" is a wee bit too eurocentric. I probably should have suggested something like "Non-Japanese animation influenced by anime" instead. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist(Speak quickly)(Follow my trail) 07:03, 24 July 2017 (UTC)reply
- in the sense that either is fine with me. Added for clarification, after having read the below comment.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:09, 1 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Anime-influenced Western animation might be okay. Most of the titles there are from the Western world, either Europe or North America.
AngusWOOF (
bark •
sniff) 06:49, 30 July 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fictional people by period and ethnic or national descent
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:rename. –
FayenaticLondon 22:52, 11 August 2017 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Fictional post-classical people
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:rename. –
FayenaticLondon 23:10, 11 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:rename for more clarity. While the term
post-classical history is used as a 'global' parallel of the 'European' term
Middle Ages, in this case the content of the category refers to fictional medieval Europeans anyway.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:46, 17 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Support, given the current contents. A category of this name could include non-mediaeval people, e.g. characters in a book set in a post-classical Maya community, but everyone in the category is clearly meant to be mediaeval. However, we need to purge it of the fictional knights, since
Sir Joseph Porter, KCB is a fictional knight set in the 19th century, and
Sir Grapefellow is a fictional knight set in the 20th century. Maybe a subcategory of "fictional mediaeval knights" or something like that?
Nyttend (
talk) 21:34, 17 July 2017 (UTC)reply
oppose rename Medieval only applies to fictional people lived in Europe during the Medieval Period of Post-Classical European history, and does not represent a non-Eurocentric
world view. "Prehistoric", "Ancient", "Postclassical" and "Modern" are deliberately broad and inclusive umbrella terms, as all cultures have their own histories and calendars. If "Fictional medieval people" as a category is needed, then falls as a subcategory of Postclassical. (See:
History of the world) --
Atvica (
talk) 21:36, 17 July 2017 (UTC)reply
And that's why I said "given the current contents". I don't see a fundamental problem with a category for all fictional post-classical people, as long as it's defined to exclude people from times/places that happen to use the name for a non-concurrent period of time.
Nyttend (
talk) 11:23, 18 July 2017 (UTC)reply
The only members who aren't medieval Europeans are in the fictional Huns subcat, and that category is extremely problematic: one character is actually Turkic, the other a Disney Mongol under an assumed ethnicity. It ought to go away anyway, but more to the point, the parent Huns category doesn't participate in any sort of "post classical" categorization, and even then, if we had such a category level, "medieval" should exist underneath it.
Mangoe (
talk) 13:51, 18 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Huh? Did you mean to say who are not medieval? The members of
Category:Characters in Beowulf are mediaeval Europeans, and they're not in the Huns category.
Nyttend (
talk) 23:27, 18 July 2017 (UTC)reply
comment the fictional Huns subcat has been deleted so there aren't any members now except medievals.
Mangoe (
talk)
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Category:Fictional HEMA practitioners
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The result of the discussion was:Delete.
Timrollpickering 11:52, 3 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:delete, "HEMA" is a non-defining characteristic and the category is largely overlapping with
Category:Fictional swordsmen.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:42, 17 July 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Buildings and structures in Montgomeryshire
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:merge. –
FayenaticLondon 23:46, 11 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: This was just at
CFD a few weeks ago under its old name of "Montgomeryshire Architecture". Whether to use Montgomeryshire or Powys was disputed, but as everyone seemed fine with "Buildings and structures" and as it's clearly the naming convention in this area, I decided to close it as a "move successful" to this new name, and then to start a new discussion. Basically,
Montgomeryshire is a historic county located almost or entirely within a larger extant government area,
Powys. The previous discussion appears to focus on whether we should go by current jurisdictions (thus supporting this merger suggestion) or whether splitting by historic counties is better in this case (thus opposing). I'm neutral.
Nyttend (
talk) 04:41, 17 July 2017 (UTC)reply
I think this is a borderline case. However, if this category is merged its subcategory should be merged too.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:22, 17 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Support the merger. It's normal practice to categorise existing things, particularly solid immovable things like buildings, by their current location. Powys is the current county/principal area and Montgomeryshire has ceased to exist. Granted Powys is a very large county, it doesn't stop buildings being categorised by town or other existing subdivision.
Sionk (
talk) 23:27, 17 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Keep. There is no need for an either/or choice between current geography and historic geography. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 08:04, 18 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Keep -- Powys covers much of three historic counties and is too large an area. The current geography of Wales is a reflection of the concentration of population in the industrial areas of the south and is ill-suited to historic subjects.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 15:41, 19 July 2017 (UTC)reply
It's smaller than Lincolnshire and several English counties. Seems a strange precedent to start categorising current things by historic areas.
Sionk (
talk) 21:00, 19 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Support the merger. Readers want to know where things are, not where they were. I had a similar, arcane, debate over
H. H. Asquith's grave, which was in Berkshire when he died but is now in Oxfordshire. However attached we might be to the old ways, it's idiosyncratic to try and maintain them in the face of clear, legal, change. And I say this as an editor who once tried to argue that
Tredegar House should remain in
Monmouthshire.
KJP1 (
talk) 20:04, 30 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Peter I. Vardy,
Nev1, p.s. It may well be worth asking Peter Vardy for a view. He's doing incredible work on lists of listed buildings in the North West. I note, as an example,
Grade I listed buildings in Cumbria has an overall Cumbria Category but then splits the list by district. But I don't think Peter uses historic districts, otherwise I'd expect to see Cumberland/Westmorland in there, and I don't.
Nev1 has done something similar for
Listed buildings in Greater Manchester, but again, I don't think he'd use historic counties - I'm not seeing the West Riding as a sub-division. I can see considerable merit in having consistency of approach in this area.
KJP1 (
talk) 16:44, 31 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Thanks KJP1 for your comment (particularly welcome as I am suffering a not very good day today - but that's personal). Of course we have to use the current districts, etc., anything else is archaic. References may be made to historic districts, etc. and in the future it may all have to be changed (again). I offer no comment in this debate, other that we have to live with the present, and to move with the future present, whatever that may be. --
Peter I. Vardy (
talk) 17:25, 31 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Merge as per my comments in the previous debates. The category is not too large to need subdividing. The rest of Wales manages without a scheme for buildings by historic county. Categorising buildings by the county that they would have been years ago is inappropriate.
BencherliteTalk 06:58, 1 August 2017 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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