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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Liz Read! Talk! 22:25, 1 September 2022 (UTC) reply

Sarfatti Building

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Sarfatti Building (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
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WP:NBUILDING has three criteria, the second of which is relevant here: "Buildings...may be notable as a result of their historic, social, economic, or architectural importance, but they require significant in-depth coverage by reliable, third-party sources to establish notability."

The importance here is both social (being some sort of main student building, as I gather from university sources) and architectural (rationalist architecture). However, I can't find in-depth coverage from third-party sources; those given on this page and in the Italian analog of the page are either affiliated, passing, or both. Searches for 'edificio sarfatti' and 'edificio leoni bocconi' turn up no in-depth third-party coverage. It may be significant, but I can't find the requisite sources to back it up. Iseult Δx parlez moi 21:01, 25 August 2022 (UTC) reply

Hi, I created the article. The building is actually featured, together with other Bocconi University buildings, in the Lombardia Beni Culturali website, which collects all the recognized and protected monuments in Lombardy region.-- Plumbago Capensis ( talk) 21:04, 25 August 2022 (UTC) reply
You can also find extensive coverage here [1]:).-- Plumbago Capensis ( talk) 21:36, 25 August 2022 (UTC) reply
@ Plumbago Capensis: As for the first, I reviewed that when I nominated this for deletion, and don't consider that to be substantial coverage, but I can see an argument for notability when taken together with the whole university complex. However, this is one of many buildings in the complex. As for the second, that might be significant coverage, but that's one source, so not substantial enough. Iseult Δx parlez moi 05:50, 26 August 2022 (UTC) reply
Hello @ Iseult:. I do believe that the combined sources point to a significant notability of the building. There are some which are same-party, but others include a catalog of Architectural monuments in Lombardy which itself features a very long list of references, a well-known and highly esteemed tourist guide (Touring Club) and an in-depth description article created by the Ordine degli Architetti di Milano (an official institution reuniting all architects in Milan). Plumbago Capensis ( talk) 09:29, 26 August 2022 (UTC) reply
@ Plumbago Capensis: I don't doubt that you believe that; after all, those were the sources in the Italian version of the article, which you created, when I nominated this for deletion. Again, this is not significant: the catalog is not a significant mention, as it mentions the building itself in passing, and the references as a rule do not seem to refer to the building itself but the university. The same is for the guide. I'll only concede the architects' thing, but then we're at one third-party source, which isn't enough per WP:NBUILDING. Iseult Δx parlez moi 15:05, 26 August 2022 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. Being "a masterpiece" of that kind of architecture is a significant claim. It was built in 1937, and i would think it is the kind of building that, in the U.S., would be listed on the National Register of Historic Places for its architecture. In the English Wikipedia though, we don't seem to have coverage of any corresponding Italian registry (see wp:HSITES). Here is a 2010 article bemoaning lack of formal historic preservation in Italy. It seems that Italy only recently, in 2016, created laws and a government department for such ( [2]), a "Ministry for Cultural Assets and Activities (MCAA)". The law sets a 50-year minimum age for listings, the same as the U.S. National Register has. Wikipedia does have an article Ministry of Culture (Italy) which suggests that a previously-existing department, at least somewhat related, was renamed to become that. But that article, when it mentions "historic monuments", links to Monument historiques, Wikipedia's page on the formal program in France. So this is a sad situation, I don't see how I can easily look up if this Sarfatti Building has been immediately registered, and it likely hasn't yet, although it seems to me that it almost certainly will be, based on what I can see about this building and what i know about many other countries' heritage registry systems. -- Doncram ( talk) 21:50, 25 August 2022 (UTC) reply
Searches should try "Edificio Sarfatti", or it seems to be known also as "Edificio Sarfatti 25". The deletion-targeted page seems to be a close translation of an Italian Wikipedia article, not yet noted in this article or its (non-existent) Talk page. (However there is a small link over to the left to go to the Italian wikipedia version). But that articulolio was created earlier this month by Plumbago Capensis, and I think has only been edited by them. (Hey, Plumbago, when you translate an article from another language's Wikipedia, there are requirements for what the new page must have in its edit summaries and what it should say on its Talk page, in order to ensure proper attribution is given to the original authors in the other language. Here, IMO there is no issue, since it's just you who wrote the Italian page. I'm not up to speed on the details, but I suggest you look into this and create a Talk page for this article and put the right stuff there.). Plumbago, I am glad you are contributing, and I think/hope this AFD should not be allowed to discourage you. There are often/always AFDs opened when anything looking different comes up. If this AFD does result in the article's deletion, please let's chat; I would be very motivated to help you get set to be able to contribute along these lines. -- Doncram ( talk) 22:09, 25 August 2022 (UTC) reply
More specifically, User:Plumbago Capensis, when you translate a page you must follow Help:Translation#License requirements, about the first edit summary and about a template for the Talk page. If you don't in the future, that will lead to trouble for you. (I will repeat this at the user's Talk page, where there are other warnings.) -- Doncram ( talk) 06:43, 26 August 2022 (UTC) reply
I am not sure if the "Lombardia Beni Culturali" is an official governmental registry listing or not. But the Lombardia Beni Culturali page mentioned, apparently this about Università Luigi Bocconi, has a LONG list of good-looking-to-me substantial sources. Plumbago, it is true that a Wikipedia article does not have to include and cite reliable sources that are independent of the topic. They merely need to exist, for an article to be justified and to survive an AFD. But using such sources upfront avoids AFD troubles. Do you have access to any of those / can you add any information or quotes sourced to any of them? -- Doncram ( talk) 22:19, 25 August 2022 (UTC) reply
@ Doncram: Regarding your first comment, Wikipedia isn't a WP:CRYSTALBALL, and we can make the article if the registry ever gets created. But not before, not based on speculation. As for your second and third, if you'd reviewed my nominating statement, you'd find that I've already been there. Iseult Δx parlez moi 05:50, 26 August 2022 (UTC) reply
Thanks User:Iseult. But if there's significant coverage, the article can be created, whether or not the topic is listed in any official registry. But if the topic is listed in a registry that we understand to be "good enough" in terms of ensuring there exists documentation, then we can cut short any AFD discussion and educate AFD editors to avoid similar nominations. Like for a Level I or a Level IIa Listed building in England, or for an individually listed NRHP-listed building in the US (but there are lower levels in those registers where having an article is usually not justified). Currently I/we don't know about Italian heritage registries; I'd like to help fix that. -- Doncram ( talk) 06:43, 26 August 2022 (UTC) reply
@ Doncram: First, I'm a bit confused, because two 'but' sentences that adjoin each other are usually used to complement each other; however, your points there seem to contradict each other. In any case, regarding the first, as I've tried to establish in my nominating statement and in my other replies, I have found no significant third-party coverage of the building. Regarding the second, per WP:NBUILDING, this registry has to be of the national level. If you don't know of any, then we're done here, and it's a delete. I personally don't know of any either. Iseult Δx parlez moi 08:42, 26 August 2022 (UTC) reply
  • Keep - I spent a while trying to find the "masterpiece" claim in this source and as far as I can tell it is the sentence L'edificio è una delle più raffinate opere del razionalismo italiano... which Google Translate calls "finest works" rather than "masterpiece" but I think it's fair to say that's close enough, considering that I do not speak Italian and am not about to argue the nuance of the language when I'm basing it off of machine translation; I will take the author at their word that masterpiece is a proper translation there. The source itself I linked also itself refers to other sources, so I think it's fair to say there is "significant in-depth coverage by reliable, third-party sources" required by WP:NBUILDING. Unfortunately in the English language I wasn't able to find any third-party sources that discuss the building, so I have to rely on the Italian sources which again, I do not speak Italian. However, there does appear to be coverage and the building does appear to be historically significant, so I think there's enough notability there to keep the article. - Aoidh ( talk) 22:37, 25 August 2022 (UTC) reply
  • Keep agree with the above source analysis, seems good. Oaktree b ( talk) 23:36, 25 August 2022 (UTC) reply
  • Comment per Todesco, Fabio (December 12, 2016). "When Architecture Tells the Story of a University, an Era and a City". Via Sarfatti 25. Retrieved August 25, 2022. Seventy-five years ago, on December 21, 1941, the Bocconi building in via Sarfatti 25 was inaugurated. It had been designed by Giuseppe Pagano...The building has left an imprint not only in the history of the University, but also in Italian architecture and in the development of Milan. In the difficult years between the '30s and '40s, with Italy ready to go to war and the Fascist regime influencing intellectual life, the construction of the building was so tormented, that Pagano himself defined it "a drama in three acts".
That's literally an affiliated source? It's from the university, and the address of the building is Via Sarfatti 25? Iseult Δx parlez moi 08:04, 27 August 2022 (UTC) reply
I guess that is not entirely an affiliated source, as it is from a university magazine.-- Plumbago Capensis ( talk) 10:15, 27 August 2022 (UTC) reply
Yes, and the university magazine is also called Via Sarfatti 25 (the address of the building): "THE BOCCONI BUILDING IN VIA SARFATTI TURNS 75 AND IS CELEBRATED BY A CONFERENCE AND A BOOK ABOUT THE UNIVERSITY OF THAT TIME, THE COMPLEX RELATIONSHIP WITH GIOVANNI GENTILE AND THE ARCHITECT GIUSEPPE PAGANO, FASCIST, ANTIFASCIST AND MARTYR, WHO DIED SHORTLY THEREAFTER IN MAUTHAUSEN." Djflem ( talk) 15:27, 27 August 2022 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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