The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Swarm ♠ 03:49, 17 September 2015 (UTC) reply

List of Romanian expatriate footballers

List of Romanian expatriate footballers (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)

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Past consensus has been that lists of this type are not notable. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Israeli footballers playing overseas, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Indonesian expatriate footballers, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Costa Rican expatriate footballers, and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Indian footballers who have played for foreign clubs, among others. Certainly there is no indication that this list meets the general notability guideline Sir Sputnik ( talk) 00:32, 30 August 2015 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Sir Sputnik ( talk) 00:33, 30 August 2015 (UTC) reply

• Do not delete this page - It is currently one page "List of Romanian expatriate footballers" and I think the content is good and developed than before and more up to date. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlexGerrard77 ( talk • contribs) 03:55, 30 August 2015 (UTC) reply
• Delete - per prior consensus, and WP:LISTCRUFT. Giant Snowman 09:57, 30 August 2015 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. Toffanin ( talk) 10:06, 30 August 2015 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Toffanin ( talk) 10:07, 30 August 2015 (UTC) reply

• Delete - This is already fulfilled by Category:Romanian expatriate footballers so no need for an article. Spiderone 12:14, 30 August 2015 (UTC) reply
• Keep, annotated, so much more useful than that category . Categories don't make good lists redundant per WP:CLN Siuenti ( talk) 20:04, 30 August 2015 (UTC) reply

It's useful is one of the explicitly enumerated arguments to avoid at afd. Since there is no indication these footballers have received significant coverage as a group so the list fails WP:GNG. Sir Sputnik ( talk) 20:16, 30 August 2015 (UTC) reply

"This list brings together related topics in X and is useful for navigating that subject." Siuenti ( talk) 20:29, 30 August 2015 (UTC) reply

It doesn't change the fact that the subject itself is not notable though. Sir Sputnik ( talk) 20:37, 30 August 2015 (UTC) reply

I prefer to think of it as a sub-list of list of Romanian footballers, split off by the defining characteristic of where they played. Siuenti ( talk) 14:24, 31 August 2015 (UTC) reply

Sir Sputnik, "WP:USEFUL" is not a fair rebuttal considering that Siuenti was responding to Spiderone's deletion argument above that the list wasn't useful in light of the category (an argument that is also contra WP:CLN). But regardless, utility is almost always going to be relevant to list AFDs, which are typically more about how we present information rather than the information itself. postdlf ( talk) 16:24, 2 September 2015 (UTC) reply

• Comment let's just examine useful Category:Romanian expatriate footballers is. I think the most likely search criteria for these people are notability, level of play, and country they went to. The category is completely useless for all of them, and the best thing you can do with it is pick members at random, or start at the beginning and work your way through, very slowly. The list covers level of play and destination country, and would also be good place to mention the most notable ones in the lead. Siuenti ( talk) 14:24, 31 August 2015 (UTC) reply
• Keep per WP:CLN, as a complement to Category:Romanian expatriate footballers. It is not necessary that a list's grouping be notable as a group (often an incoherent analysis when applied to many lists), as WP:LISTN itself makes clear—it is only one way to analyze the merit of lists. Where lists organize articles, i.e. where every entry is notable, and the classification is not unusual or trivial, WP:LISTPURP is the more relevant guideline. Here we have a whole category structure at Category:Expatriate association football players by nationality. If expatriate playing status is standard and significant enough to categorize, then it's certainly standard and significant enough to list. postdlf ( talk) 16:24, 2 September 2015 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Romania-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 02:52, 4 September 2015 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 02:52, 4 September 2015 (UTC) reply

• Keep the list, but ensure that each of the listed footballers satisfy the notability criteria, per WP:CSC. Razvan Socol ( talk) 05:35, 4 September 2015 (UTC) reply

• Delete - clear consensus that such lists are not notable. Additionally an inherently unencyclopedic list. A romanian who has moved to Germany and plays for a small team in a local five-a-side league meets the criteria for this list. Fenix down ( talk) 14:53, 8 September 2015 (UTC) reply

Incorrect. If you look at the article's lead you will notice that the list is limited to "professional leagues" and "football". Macosal ( talk) 01:44, 9 September 2015 (UTC) reply

• Keep per the rationale postdlf provided. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 06:52, 9 September 2015 (UTC) reply
• Comment if this article is to be kept, it does require a substantial overhaul. I'm not against keeping it by any means, but: 1. The criteria need to be clarified. The lead says leagues need to be professional (I'd assume as per Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues) - but many of those listed here aren't. Further, I'd assume players need to have taken the field (also not explicitly stated. 2. the list is incomplete; one which came to my mind was Răzvan Raț who is not listed for his time at West Ham. Meanwhile many players are listed who shouldn't be (dual nationals) - for example, Hagi Gligor might be of Romanian descent but was born and raised in Australia and plays for Australian youth teams - per convention on other Wikipedia pages he shouldn't be included. Also the single reference currently provided is insufficient.

I'm not against keeping the page - I know in Australia at least that players playing abroad in pro leagues do receive a lot of public attention (although I can't say I'm too familiar with the situation in Romania) but these improvements do need to be made (I might make some of them myself, but don't have the time/knowledge to do them all. I'd probably be inclined to wait until the result of this before doing anything too substantial only to see it deleted anyway. I'd also suggest something like List of foreign Premier League players being used as a template for how to structure the page and in particular its lead. Macosal ( talk) 14:02, 15 September 2015 (UTC) reply

Also just noticed that this list is limited to "currently playing abroad. I think that needs to change too.... Macosal ( talk) 14:03, 15 September 2015 (UTC) reply

Inclusion criteria is a matter for editing. And it should be obvious that such a list should be limited to those who merit articles, by whatever standard. postdlf ( talk) 22:25, 15 September 2015 (UTC) reply

I agree with you that inclusion criteria is a matter for editing rather than deletion. However, in its current state the article requires significant change or else I don't think it should remain. "Current" players is a clear concern to me (see WP:RECENT). I don't think the article should remain if it's just an index of Romanians playing overseas right now - it needs to be opened up to all time. Also I think players must not only be notable, they must have taken the field and that must have been in a fully professional league, or else the criteria for inclusion are too broad/indeterminate. If these changes were implemented then I would probably agree to keeping the list, but as I've said, in its current state I do have issues. Macosal ( talk) 03:28, 16 September 2015 (UTC) reply

Yes, it shouldn't be limited to current players. But deletion certainly won't fix that, and per policy ( WP:ATD, WP:PRESERVE) we don't delete content for fixable problems (a problem that I've fixed in any event). postdlf ( talk) 14:31, 16 September 2015 (UTC) reply

• Delete per consensus. Also, Category:Romanian expatriate footballers already fills the gap. MYS 77 ^✉ 20:44, 15 September 2015 (UTC) reply
  • I see no "consensus" established, just a few scattershot AFDs, all of which are years old. Please read the whole discussion, not just the nomination, as your category comment has already been responded to (and is itself contrary to guideline-established consensus). postdlf ( talk) 22:25, 15 September 2015 (UTC) reply
• Keep Per Postdlf, article should be kept per WP:CLN. MrWooHoo ( talk) 02:37, 17 September 2015 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.