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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. I dont think we're getting a clear consensus from this AfD. Fenix down ( talk) 17:32, 29 June 2020 (UTC) reply

List of Major Indoor Soccer League (1978–1992) broadcasters

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List of Major Indoor Soccer League (1978–1992) broadcasters (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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PROD removed by article creator. This is non-notable WP:LISTCRUFT. Giant Snowman 10:33, 14 June 2020 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Giant Snowman 10:35, 14 June 2020 (UTC) reply

@ GiantSnowman: Major Indoor Soccer League on CBS (articles)

Major Indoor Soccer League on ESPN (articles)
Major Indoor Soccer League on FNN/Score (articles)
Major Indoor Soccer League on Hughes Television Network (articles)
Major Indoor Soccer League on SportsChannel America (articles)
Major Indoor Soccer League on USA Network (articles)
Bob Carptener
Joel Meyers
Bill MacDonald
Bob Ley
JP Dellacamera
Al Trautwig
Chicago
Cleveland
Denver
New York
San Diego
St. Louis

BornonJune8 ( talk) 10:41, 14 June 2020 (UTC) reply

@ GiantSnowman: May I ask you something, is it "list cruft" to provide a list of other American based association football broadcasters like Major League Soccer? If that's the case, than why is there a Wikipedia article for List of current Major League Soccer broadcasters. And while we're going down that route how about any other list of association football broadcasters that you personally may or may not care anything or about or have any reverence for!? I mean, the MISL in-between the demise of the North American Soccer League and the launch of MLS, was pretty much the defacto biggest professional soccer association in the United States (even though it was indoors). Here's an article via the Associated Press that details the folding of MISL in 1992:

And another one from the Baltimore Sun:

BornonJune8 ( talk) 10:52, 14 June 2020 (UTC) reply

Where is the significant coverage of the topic (broadcasters in MISL) in reliable, third-party sources? Please read WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Are there any lists of commentators for other major leagues and competitions - List of Premier League commentators, List of FIFA World Cup commentators etc]]? Oh look, there aren't any, because the topic of 'commentators' is intrinsically non-notable... Giant Snowman 11:37, 14 June 2020 (UTC) reply
TBF List of Premier League broadcasters and List of FIFA World Cup broadcasters do exist..... -- ChrisTheDude ( talk) 18:23, 14 June 2020 (UTC) reply
That is primarily a list of channels, not individuals. Can you imagine the carnage if we had a list of every person to commentate a game in the Premier League, given the number of radio/TV etc. channels that cover it?! Giant Snowman 18:32, 14 June 2020 (UTC) reply
@ GiantSnowman: The last time that I checked, there actually are articles listing FIFA World Cup broadcasters and Premier League commentators, so your argument right then and there has already been thrown out of the window. And the FIFA World Cup article also list virtually every person (at least in the United States and United Kingdom but still) to comment a game from over the last 50 years. Of course, it doesn't list specifically what games those individuals called during that particular point in time, but still. And like I said, there's a list of individuals and networks that currently broadcast Major League Soccer games. And that particular league is on going unlike MISL, which went out of business in 1992. And might I add, you ask about where exactly the significant coverage of the topic is in reliable, third-party sources? I just posted a list of them (in bold) in my initial response. BornonJune8 ( talk) 6:56, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Ah yes, you're referring to List of Premier League broadcasters, which is an article about the world's biggest league, and refers to TV channels only. Your article on MISL is about a minor league that folded 3 decades ago, and has no significant coverage on the topic. They are not the same. Giant Snowman 18:59, 14 June 2020 (UTC) reply
@ GiantSnowman: You're seemingly making an apples and oranges argument. You can't compare something like the Premier League from Europe to an admittedly niche sport like the MISL in the United States. That would be like comparing the National Football League to the Arena Football League. And of course, a "minor League" isn't going to get as much significant coverage as a well-established professional sports league like the Premier League or the NFL. You could possibly say that for any "minor" league even if there is actually "evidence" on the internet that they did receive some form of television or radio coverage. The point is here, is that is or isn't there any significant coverage on the topic. And as I've been trying to address in here in the links that I posted, yes there is. And again, if you're going to point out to a list of broadcasters that only refers to TV channels, then what do you have to say about articles listing current National Football League broadcasters, which not only list the radio stations and TV networks, but also the announcers. And that's the same thing with Major League Baseball, the National Basketball Association, and the National Hockey League. BornonJune8 ( talk) 7:09, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for admitting that the other articles that exist on a similar vein are not comparable and that this topic does not have any significant coverage. Now, what is your argument for the topic of MISL broadcasters of being notable enough to justify a separate article? Other than WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS? Giant Snowman 19:28, 14 June 2020 (UTC) reply
@ GiantSnowman: My main point is that how can you say that any other sports broadcasting related article like the Premier League doesn't literally list every announcer when I just pointed out to you that in the United States at least, there are articles on Wikipedia that do list the announcers as well as the TV and radio outlets for each franchise. And you keep ignoring the fact that I've provided you a list of third-party sources (such as newspaper articles and book excerpts) that make reference of the various television networks and announcers (such as Randy Hahn, Joel Meyers, Bob Carpenter, and Bill MacDonald) to have covered the MISL. By my count, I've provided at least 30 different sources up above. BornonJune8 ( talk) 7:34, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
@ GiantSnowman: It should be worth noting that the MISL during its "peak" in the '80s managed to have its games broadcast on not only ESPN and USA Network (among the biggest cable networks in the United States), but also major broadcast network in the form of CBS. So don't tell me that there aren't any significant coverage for a "minor league that fold 3 decades ago". Here's a reference to CBS' coverage here:

This would be the final year the MISL would have games aired on network television, CBS broadcast Game 4 of the championship series live on May 25. [1]

As well as ESPN:

For the most part, the league format remained unchanged. A 48-game season would be followed with an eight-team playoff, similar to the playoff system used from 1982 to 1984. There would be one major change in gameplay, however. The shootout, part of the MISL since its inception, was dropped in favor of multiple overtime periods to decide games, if necessary. [2] There was a steady national TV contract for the first time since 1983, as ESPN would televise 15 regular-season games and assorted playoff games. [3]

BornonJune8 ( talk) 7:57, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

@ GiantSnowman: I've addressed this prior but in the separate articles for the Los Angeles Lazers and Wichita Wings, there are sections that detail their respective television and radio coverage. So if that isn't "significant" coverage regarding the MISL and its media outlets than I don't know what is:

In their inaugural season, the Lazers games were broadcast on Cable Radio Network. Beginning in the second season, Bill MacDonald asked Buss and Weinstein for permission to broadcast the Lazers home games on KBOB radio in Pasadena. MacDonald's family agreed to purchase the air time, and MacDonald's long running career was launched. [4] During the 1983–84 season, the Lazers made the first entree into the television arena by broadcasting a few games on the Lakers and Kings KCAL 9 television network. Chick Hearn, the Lakers broadcaster, and Bob Miller, the Kings broadcaster, shared the play-by-play responsibilities. During the 1984–85 season, the Lazers began to broadcast their games on Prime Ticket, which was the regional sports network created by Dr. Jerry Buss for Southern California. This first Lazers broadcast was only the second event to have ever been aired on the Prime Ticket Network. Joel Meyers, a new and upcoming telecaster, joined MacDonald to become the dynamic team that announced every play from then on for the Lazers. [5]

The Wings would appear nationally on the USA Network, ESPN, and CBS. [6] Their first local television contract was with KSN-TV (NBC) and announcer Dave Armstrong in 1981-82. KSN would continue to broadcast the Wings through the 1985-86 season. Other announcers included Craig Bolerjack, Mike Kennedy, and Steve Dennis. Former Wing Joe Howarth and Director of Media Relations Steve Shaad, respectively, would serve as the color commentator for several of those seasons. The 1986-87 season saw KAKE-TV (ABC) take over the broadcast. Mark Allan would be their announcer through the 1988-89 season. The Wings would have no television contract thereafter. [7] KFH Radio (1330 AM) would broadcast the Wings from 1981 through 1986, with first Bruce Haertl and then Jim Hawley announcing. Steve Shaad, Blake Schreck, and Klaus Kollmai served as color commentators on the KFH broadcasts. In 1986, KRZ (1240 AM) took over the radio broadcasting, with Dave Phillips as announcer. As KNSS, they would continue to broadcast the Wings through the 1989-90 season. Phillips would be the voice of the Wings with KZSN (1480 AM) through the 1993 season. Steve Dennis took over KZSN's announcing duties in 1994 and continued through the transition to KFH in 1995-96. Former Wings goalkeeper Kris Peat served as announcer in 1996-97. In 1997, Rob Barzegar and KQAM (1480 AM) became the Wings radio broadcaster. [7]

I don't understand why you have to use the article on Premier League broadcasters as some sort of measuring stick regarding whether or not any other association football related media article is notable. It's like your saying that since the Premier League article doesn't have to explicitly list the commentators (only the TV networks), it's automatically counts as a more credible source than an almost similar type of list for the MISL. And I you also ignored that I pointed out to you the article on the FIFA World Cup broadcasters (which is of course, one of the biggest sporting events in the world; right up there with the Olympics) showed not only the TV networks but the commentators. And your whole argument that "well of course the Premier League, the biggest soccer league in the world is going to warrant an article over a minor league in the United States that folded 3 decades ago would be like me saying that when compared to the National Football League, there shouldn't at all be articles detailing the radio and television coverage of admittedly smaller organizations like the United States Football League, the World Football League, the Arena Football League, etc. That is even if an opposing party still tried to fully go out of their way to provide as many credible third-party sources as possible.

BornonJune8 ( talk) 10:31, 15 June 2020 (UTC) reply

  1. ^ Sarni, Jim (May 25, 1985). "Blast For Soccer Fans: CBS Airs MISL Game". South Florida Sun-Sentinel. Retrieved 2012-05-08.
  2. ^ "MISL's Seven New Rules". Los Angeles Times. October 23, 1985. Retrieved 2012-05-27.
  3. ^ MISL Official Guide 1989-90. 1989. p. 49.
  4. ^ Cite error: The named reference sover1984 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  5. ^ "The Year in American Soccer – 1986". Sover.net. 2012-07-12. Archived from the original on 2009-03-25. Retrieved 2016-05-12.
  6. ^ Cite error: The named reference :1 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  7. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference :0 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 10:03, 16 June 2020 (UTC) reply
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 10:03, 16 June 2020 (UTC) reply
  • DELETE: I quote directly from WP:LC: "In general, a "List of X" stand-alone list article should only be created if X itself is a legitimate encyclopedic topic that already has its own article. The list should originate as a section within that article, and should not be broken out into a separate article until it becomes so long as to be disproportionate to the rest of the article." Seany91 ( talk) 08:59, 18 June 2020 (UTC) reply
@ Seany91: And what about then, the television and radio coverage section in the main article for the MISL? BornonJune8 ( talk) 10:17, 18 June 2020 (UTC) reply
Why do we need a separate article? Giant Snowman 10:33, 18 June 2020 (UTC) reply
@ GiantSnowman: What would you other than deleting the article entirely, personally prefer then? And might I add that this started after I made a category devoted to each of the sports announcers (such as Jon Miller, Bob Carpenter, JP Dellacamera, Randy Hahn, Harry Kalas, Bob Ley, Bill MacDonald, Al Trautwig etc.) who had called MISL games during their career. Of course, with a category, it's much harder to specific exactly which team, TV network, or radio station they called said MISL games for when compared to something like a list. BornonJune8 ( talk) 11:01, 18 June 2020 (UTC) reply
@ Seany91: I had been intending on making a generalized article about the MISL's television coverage once I had the time, energy and was simply able to get around to it. What I'm reading into your response is that since there isn't a full blown article like that, then the separate list of broadcasters shouldn't be created since it isn't a legitimate enough of a topic. I made the section for the TV and radio coverage in the main MISL article in hope of providing some sort of context to go along with posting the list at the top of it. BornonJune8 ( talk) 11:23, 18 June 2020 (UTC) reply
A brief section on the main article is all that is needed. Giant Snowman 11:48, 18 June 2020 (UTC) reply
@ GiantSnowman: I would imagine though that a brief section on the main article doesn't exactly explain that or give enough detail about individual media coverage for the roughly 25 MISL franchises from its 15 year history. There's a difference between briefly summarizing (like in a few sentences to a paragraph or two) that the MISL had some of its games broadcasts on CBS, USA Network, and ESPN throughout its history and identifying the local announcers and regional cable channels/TV affiliates to have broadcasts said games outside of that window. You can have a brief section to provide some context before going further into that if you have the sources and information to back it up. Again, saying that all readers need is a brief section on the main article is pretty subjective if not down right presumptuous. Just because you personally feel that there shouldn't be too much information about the media coverage for the MISL doesn't mean that others wouldn't be curious. BornonJune8 ( talk) 2:14, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
I have made my point, you have made your point, you cannot persuade me otherwise, please stop pinging me. Giant Snowman 16:09, 18 June 2020 (UTC) reply
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Nfitz ( talk) 07:03, 19 June 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Keep this AfD is a mess and I haven't read any of it. That being said, the article is sourced, we do typically keep lists of broadcasters by league, and the Major Indoor Soccer League was one of if not the most important American soccer league of the 1980s. SportingFlyer T· C 16:45, 19 June 2020 (UTC) reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Fenix down ( talk) 06:36, 22 June 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Comment As per wp:lstn stand alone lists can exist if the subject of the list is notable. Sporting F1 is right that this has precedence with other sports, but that the list still needs to meet wp:gng. However if it doe meet notability, then the articles in the list do not need to be notable, however editors can agree to make this notable. User:Davidstewartharvey
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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