- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Nfooty is a presumption of GNG. That has been challenged here and nothing has been provided to support GNG. Fenix down ( talk) 06:02, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
Julien Jean
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Article about former footballer who made a total of 3 substitute's appearances (totaling less than 90 minutes of play) in France's fully-pro Ligue 2. Although this appears to satisfy the bright-line of WP:NFOOTBALL, it does not because there is longstanding consensus that a footballer who played a minimal amount in a fully-pro league but comprehensively fails WP:GNG does not actually satisfy NFOOTBALL (see e.g., Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Phakamani Mngadi). All of the online coverage in English- and French-language sources is routine (database entries). Jogurney ( talk) 21:29, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 22:34, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 22:34, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of France-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 22:34, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 22:35, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
- Speedy Keep. subject passes WP:NFOOTBALL Players who have played, and managers who have managed in a competitive game between two teams from fully-professional leagues, will generally be regarded as notable. Note: The individual notability requirements were made for each category on WP i.e. actors, artists, professional athletes etc. The subject only needs to pass NFOOTBALL or WP:GNG. And this player clearly passes WP:NFOOTBALL by playing played in a professional league which is on our list... the nominator admits this in the nomination. WP recognizes that Footballers are notable for playing, not for tabloid headlines or interviews. Lightburst ( talk) 02:16, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
- Don't speedy keep I'm neutral on what should be done with this article (leaning delete or redirect per the nominator's detailed reasoning), but WP:SKCRIT presents a narrow range of six possible criteria, of which 1, 2, 4, 5 and 6 obviously cannot possibly apply, and 3 in this case cannot be taken to apply. The nominator explicitly cited NFOOTY and then stated why he felt it didn't apply in this case; the above "speedy keep" !vote, on the other hand, appears be ignorant not only of the speedy keep criteria but even of what the nominator in this case clearly wrote. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 05:04, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
- Delete - scrapes by on WP:NFOOTBALL but fails WP:GNG with no sources at all beyond databases. If you can find a source then ping me so I can reconsider. Giant Snowman 08:01, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
-
Giant The subject only needs to pass
WP:NFOOTBALL or GNG, that is why WP has categories for each, like
WP:PROF and
WP:SOLDIER for instance. Many editors believe that a subject must pass both but that is incorrect. I hope that helps.
Lightburst (
talk) 12:46, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
- @
Lightburst: that is not correct.
Giant
Snowman 13:03, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
-
Giant Please see (
Notability) A topic is presumed to merit an article if:
- It meets either the general notability guideline below, or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline listed in the box on the right; and
- It is not excluded under the What Wikipedia is not policy. Lightburst ( talk) 13:11, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
-
Giant Please see (
Notability) A topic is presumed to merit an article if:
- @
Lightburst: that is not correct.
Giant
Snowman 13:03, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
-
Giant The subject only needs to pass
WP:NFOOTBALL or GNG, that is why WP has categories for each, like
WP:PROF and
WP:SOLDIER for instance. Many editors believe that a subject must pass both but that is incorrect. I hope that helps.
Lightburst (
talk) 12:46, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
- Keep Obviously passes WP:NFOOTY. One questionably closed AfD does not make "longstanding consensus". Smartyllama ( talk) 12:22, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
- @
Smartyllama: see AFDs on
Oscar Otazu,
Vyacheslav Seletskiy,
Aleksandr Salimov,
Andrei Semenchuk,
Artyom Dubovsky,
Cosmos Munegabe,
Marios Antoniades,
Scott Sinclair,
Fredrik Hesselberg-Meyer,
Matheus Eccard,
Roland Szabó (2nd nomination),
Metodija Stepanovski,
Linas Klimavičius,
Takumi Ogawa,
Nicky Fish and
Andrei Nițu, amongst others.
Giant
Snowman 13:03, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
-
Giant Editors are unaware of the policy as you were also unaware. We can point to hundreds of AfD's that did not follow
WP:POLICY. The ivoters vote based on their understanding of the criteria and relevant policies. AfD is based on who shows up to ivote, not and all voters understand the policy. Even the nom admits that the subject passes
WP:NFOOTBALL and I just showed you the relevant policy. However each editor can still vote against policy if they wish. I just hope the closer gives more weight to an argument based on the policies set forth in the Notability requirements.
Lightburst (
talk) 13:53, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
- Please re-read my nomination rationale - nowhere does it "admit" that this article satisfies NFOOTBALL. Also, NFOOTBALL is a presumption of notability and per long-standing (Cosmos Muneagabe was decided in December 2011!) consensus demonstrated through dozens of AfDs (including many during the past 6 months) shows that this presumption should be rebutted when a player has a nominal amount of play in a fully-pro league during a career that fails to have sourcing which satisfies the GNG. This is hardly controversial as editors and administrators participating in those AfDs have very consistently reached the same conclusion.
Jogurney (
talk) 14:27, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
- Note: I have read the nomination: the nomination incorrectly states that the subject must pass both nfootball and gng -
WP:NOTPOLICY. And the nomination mentions long standing consensus, which also is not policy... rather it is based on ivoters voting their understanding of policy. For your nomination to be correct on policy,
WP:NFOOTBALL would need to be rewritten to add your caveats regarding playing time (which you mention as having a bearing), and adding in an additional GNG requirement which the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline (professor, soldier, actor, etc.) does not require.
Lightburst (
talk) 14:46, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
- You are misunderstanding the consensus (perhaps a read of the many AfDs linked here would help?). I never said an article must satisfy NFOOTBALL and GNG, just that the presumption of notability in NFOOTBALL can be rebutted (as it is has in similar situations several times before and should be here). Jogurney ( talk) 15:58, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
- Note: I have read the nomination: the nomination incorrectly states that the subject must pass both nfootball and gng -
WP:NOTPOLICY. And the nomination mentions long standing consensus, which also is not policy... rather it is based on ivoters voting their understanding of policy. For your nomination to be correct on policy,
WP:NFOOTBALL would need to be rewritten to add your caveats regarding playing time (which you mention as having a bearing), and adding in an additional GNG requirement which the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline (professor, soldier, actor, etc.) does not require.
Lightburst (
talk) 14:46, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
- Please re-read my nomination rationale - nowhere does it "admit" that this article satisfies NFOOTBALL. Also, NFOOTBALL is a presumption of notability and per long-standing (Cosmos Muneagabe was decided in December 2011!) consensus demonstrated through dozens of AfDs (including many during the past 6 months) shows that this presumption should be rebutted when a player has a nominal amount of play in a fully-pro league during a career that fails to have sourcing which satisfies the GNG. This is hardly controversial as editors and administrators participating in those AfDs have very consistently reached the same conclusion.
Jogurney (
talk) 14:27, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
-
Giant Editors are unaware of the policy as you were also unaware. We can point to hundreds of AfD's that did not follow
WP:POLICY. The ivoters vote based on their understanding of the criteria and relevant policies. AfD is based on who shows up to ivote, not and all voters understand the policy. Even the nom admits that the subject passes
WP:NFOOTBALL and I just showed you the relevant policy. However each editor can still vote against policy if they wish. I just hope the closer gives more weight to an argument based on the policies set forth in the Notability requirements.
Lightburst (
talk) 13:53, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
- Delete. Coming off the substitute's bench three times in a second-tier league is not, never has been, and never should be, a free pass around the general notability guideline. That guideline exists to ensure that we have properly sourced articles and is particularly important for biographies of living persons. Editors arguing otherwise both misunderstand the meaning of "presume" in the relevant guidelines and fail to understand the damage caused by the flotsam and jetsam of thousands of non-notable football biographies floating around unwatched and not updated. -- Mkativerata ( talk) 01:04, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
- Delete – per GS and Mkativerata. Can't find anything approaching
WP:SIGCOV. The best I can find is a brief mention on the local town hall website
[1] (
To satisfy their appetite for conquest, the "Red Cats" enlisted a former professional player of the Chamois Niortais: Julien Jean.
) – Leviv ich 05:41, 28 July 2019 (UTC) - Delete a non-notable footballer. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:46, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.