- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 15:46, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
Hattie King Reavis
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I get that finding sources on these older subjects is difficult, but I'm not seeing anything that that's even properly claimed in the article as to why this subject is notable, much less is it proven. Showboat is likely their most notable performance and it looks as if they were a member of the "ensemble" and it was before the musical hit Broadway. There's the claim that the subject recorded a song that was "a hit", but no context provided for what is meant by a hit. Fails WP:GNG and WP:NARTIST Sulfurboy ( talk) 00:37, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 00:40, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Theatre-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 00:40, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of North Carolina-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 00:41, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 00:41, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- Keep,
WP:BEFORE would apply here. [
[1]] like this tell me this individual is notable. She is also mentioned here [
[2]]. There are the provided references in the article too but if her material is still being cited, produced and sold 100 years later fair to day she is notable.
Hell in a Bucket (
talk) 01:19, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- Comment Dude one of those sources is a wordpress blog site that only mentions the subject in passing and the other is a directory of literally every person that was ever in that orchestra. How do either of those establish notability? Not seeing anywhere that she is cited or produced "100 years later" not sure where that is coming from. Nor about her music being sold 100 years later. Sulfurboy ( talk) 01:29, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- Here's another source [
[3]], cited as an artist in this dissertation [
[4]], She's cited here in [
[5]] Century of Musicals. I can keep digging but I am sure she qualifies as a stand alone article.
Hell in a Bucket (
talk) 01:42, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- Cited here [ [6]] as "The SSO best known members" Hell in a Bucket ( talk) 01:48, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- Cited here in a book written in Italian [
[7]]
Hell in a Bucket (
talk) 01:50, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- Comment The first source there is basically a track listing, the second literally mentions the subject once in reference to a group of people that are on a recording and the third one is a cast list from a non-notable show. Again how do any of these, or the first two you mentioned demonstrate notability? You may want to refer to WP:SIGCOV and WP:ROUTINE and WP:DIRECTORY. Also, how about that other claim you made of her being cited, produced and sold 100 years later? I love the enthusiasm and welcome a differing opinion, but if you are going to make claims in an AfD, please support them with facts and make sure you are citing proper policy. Cheers Sulfurboy ( talk) 01:52, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- LOl, you admit that it's hard to find indepth sources for older performer, especially black ones but I can show you that she is mentioned in multiple venues over a long period of time as per
WP:SUSTAINED. The fact that we can show this many citing her as one of the "best known members of the SSO" and multiple other mentions suggests you are simply ignoring what is presented not only by the author but myself. I think you're a little sad I moved this to article space over your decline frankly and while I do believe you did make a decision that you thought was best you are ultimately off base.
Hell in a Bucket (
talk) 02:00, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- Comment Again, I don't think cite means what you think it does in Wikipedia terms. I could care less about it being approved after I declined it. There's been literally thousands of articles I've declined that went on to be approved. You've also failed to show anything beyond WP:ROUTINE or WP:NOTNEWS AfC reviewing is not a competition and it's sorta sad that you view it that way. However, if you want to accuse me of having an ulterior motive, that's probably best suited at WP:ANI and not in an Afd. Sulfurboy ( talk) 02:10, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- LOl, you admit that it's hard to find indepth sources for older performer, especially black ones but I can show you that she is mentioned in multiple venues over a long period of time as per
WP:SUSTAINED. The fact that we can show this many citing her as one of the "best known members of the SSO" and multiple other mentions suggests you are simply ignoring what is presented not only by the author but myself. I think you're a little sad I moved this to article space over your decline frankly and while I do believe you did make a decision that you thought was best you are ultimately off base.
Hell in a Bucket (
talk) 02:00, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- Here's another source [
[3]], cited as an artist in this dissertation [
[4]], She's cited here in [
[5]] Century of Musicals. I can keep digging but I am sure she qualifies as a stand alone article.
Hell in a Bucket (
talk) 01:42, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
easy there, no one said anything about ANI or any need of dispute resolution, this is just a discussion no need to get butthurt. I am observing a potential cause for your inability to accept anything being presented here. You can have your opinions about what citing means here and I can have mine. I can trust my 11 years experience here in writing and reviewing articles. Feel free to disagree but IMO what you are throwing up is moving goal posts, first it was that it was hard to find more info that described a hit, now it's something else entirely.
Hell in a Bucket (
talk) 02:19, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- Comment There's no opinion involved with what cite means. It's in fact clearly defined in the very first line of WP:CITE. Any goal post moving I did was in response to new claims after old ones were abandoned. And I don't think you can accuse me of ulterior motives and call me "butthurt" and then also call this a discussion. Since civility seems to be heading for the door, probably best I WP:WALKAWAY too. Cheers Sulfurboy ( talk) 02:30, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- Hhere's another one [ One of the better revues was The Sheik of Harlem, starring Hattie King Reavis and Irvin Miller, which allowed mid- 1923 audiences to see "the frothy side of Harlem life" with all its foibles and vices prominently displayed, as well as a chorus of ...] Hell in a Bucket ( talk) 02:25, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- And mentioned here in 1969 in the [ The high spots of the show, in my opinion, were the singing of Miss Hattie King Reavis and, a step lower, the drollery of Mr. Miller himself. The day I saw the show Miss Reavis drew down more applause than any other member of the cast...] Hell in a Bucket ( talk) 02:31, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- Here's another review [ |May 1921 a group called " L ' Orchestre Symphonique Americain " appeared at the Theatre des ChampsElysees in Paris . This group was presented by H . W . Wellmon and certainly included both Hattie King Reavis and Buddy Gilmore ] Hell in a Bucket ( talk) 02:37, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- She is credited [ as part of the best plays in the Burns Mantle Yearbook] Hell in a Bucket ( talk) 02:39, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- [ Credited in a Century of musicals, and singled out for a song she sang] Hell in a Bucket ( talk) 02:49, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- She managed Urylee Leonardos, as per [ page 13 in the Indianapolis Recorder] Hell in a Bucket ( talk) 03:04, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- The Richmond Planet, in 1925, described her [ Miss Hattie King Reavis is a peculiar character. She has a charming re- tiring manner, a voice that possesses charming melody and a stage dignity and modesty ...] Hell in a Bucket ( talk) 03:12, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- Delete. Let's start with what is easy. Managing one artist does not make one notable. Simply being mentioned as being part of an orchestra does not make one notable. Hell in a Bucket (a user name that does not inspire confidence) starts out with two insignificant cites that made me think they are not even serious. Then, 3 and 4 were also not significant. 5 at least shows that she had a principal role in The Sheik of Harlem, a musical production at the Lafayette Theatre (Harlem), but the show is not even important enough to be named in the theatre's article; but the subsequent cite helps give context. 6 is insignificant. 7 could be promising, but let's have a translation! What is the cite from The Messenger about? Is it also about The Sheik of Harlem, or something else? Another cite merely stating that she was a member of the orchestra is not significant, as it has never explained why her participation in that orchestra was important. What show is Burns-Mantle talking about, and was her role in the show important? The next cite to A Century of Musicals is a duplicate (or at least a copy) of a previous one. What is Richmond Planet reviewing, just a cabaret performance? All of this, taken together, shows that she was a performer, and even hints that she was a good performer, but it does not show that she was a notable performer. If you want to save the article, you're going to need to find more significant coverage of her career. It is a losing argument to say that it is hard to find information about performers who died long ago. Here is an article on a black singer from much earlier. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 05:31, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- User:Ssilvers, you'd be correct 99 percent of the time with the idea about hard finding information on earlier individuals not being a winning argument. This particular case though it is a mitigating factor, this was not just a black person, but a black woman. Sometimes we have to account for the fact that racism and sexism would have played a role in how widespread mainstream coverage would have been. IMO when we consider those factors her notability becomes more clear, it's not superstar notability but it is there IMO. Hell in a Bucket ( talk) 12:59, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- Keep: More careful searching would reveal much more about her, e.g. [8], but what we already have is evidence of her notability.-- Ipigott ( talk) 09:52, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- Keep. She was the executive director of American Negro Theater, and spent much of her career in Europe, for which sources are hard to find, at least for me. Given those facts, along with sources already in the article or mentioned above, she meets gng. Jacona ( talk) 12:19, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- Keep Given the time frame, unless one has access through Proscribe to the Associated Negro Press or a university archive which has archival materials related to black history, reference will be difficult to find in mainstream media. Many many snippits are indicators of notability; however, the fact that sources confirm that she regularly appeared in the black press is evident here and certainly here in which she appears 37 times in a 77 page document. There is a biography of her here pages 49-50. A song she sung was selected recently for inclusion in a CD on the artists of the Black Swans. She was elected to the board of the American Guild of Variety Artists, New York Chapter; apparently also wrote songs; performed into the late 1940s; and died in 1970. The few issues of The Age, a black paper, available on newspaper.com, confirm that she was often covered. [9], [10], [11], [12] over an extensive period of time. Clear indications here of notability and sufficient sources to meet GNG. SusunW ( talk) 15:30, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- Keep per all of the sources listed above. Sustained coverage and coverage by multiple reliable, independent sources (even if not substantial) are an indicator of notability, per WP:SUSTAINED and WP:BASIC, respectively. It seems like all signs point to her being notable. Not having easily-available online, significant coverage doesn't seem like a strong enough argument for deletion (especially in this particular case, where the subject is a black woman from the 1920s and there have been many sources found). - Whisperjanes ( talk) 17:23, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.