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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete.  —  Crisco 1492 ( talk) 11:56, 14 April 2014 (UTC) reply

Hamidou Traoré

Hamidou Traoré (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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Contested PROD. Concern was Article about a footballer who fails WP:GNG and who has not played in a fully pro league. PROD was contested on the grounds that he had scored twelve goals in the Malian First Division. However, since this league is not confirmed as fully pro, doing so does not confer notability per WP:NSPORT. Sir Sputnik ( talk) 14:39, 26 March 2014 (UTC) reply

I am also nominating the following article for similar reasons. In this case, a PROD was the same concern was removed by the article's creator without providing a reason. Sir Sputnik ( talk) 14:41, 26 March 2014 (UTC) reply

Germain Berthé (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Find sources:  Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Sir Sputnik ( talk) 14:41, 26 March 2014 (UTC) reply
  • Keep As the article's creator I have added several references to show that he has played in a Pro League and that according to CAF and FIFA the Malian League is a professional league. This is per the fact that Malian Première Division is the top division of football in Mali. Having been created in 1966, it is governed by the Fédération Malienne de Football. The league has been professional since 2004. CrossTemple Jay 15:13, 26 March 2014 (UTC) reply
  • Keep because a league is in the non-western world, we need to recognize that the conversation is going to be in different places, and off different level of sources to create notability. This looks like WP:Systematic bias problems. And +1 to Crosstemplejay's reasoning, Sadads ( talk) 15:42, 26 March 2014 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Traoré, Delete Berthé Delete Both - Arguments above are entirely incorrect. @ Crosstemplejay: you may wish to refamiliarise yourself with WP:NFOOTY, the Malian league may contain professional clubs, but there is no current consensus that it is a FULLY professional league. You are of course welcome to start a discussion at WT:FOOTY if you believe you have sources that indicate that it is. @ Sadads: you may wish to reconsider your whole opinion or at least provide some evidence for your claim of systematic bias. At the moment, you just look boorish. Geographic locale has no impact on GNG whatsoever.
However for Traoré, this indicates the player did play in at least one of the 2014 African Nations Championship matches, which this indicates were full FIFA intenationals for the first time, so he passes WP:NFOOTY. This article requires expanding not deleting. None of the sources here indicate Traoré actually played in the competition.
Although Additionally, for Berthé, this, this, this and this indicate he was an unused substitute in all four games, so does not appear to have played in an FPL, nor senior international football and so fails WP:NFOOTY. Though sources are provided, they are in the main WP:ROUTINE match reports and stat sites. There is no indication of significant, reliable sources covering any other achievements in the required level of detail for WP:GNG. Fenix down ( talk) 16:17, 26 March 2014 (UTC) reply
@ Fenix down: The source you've provided only confirms that Traoré was named to the substitutes bench, but says nothing as to whether he came on or not. Sir Sputnik ( talk) 16:37, 26 March 2014 (UTC) reply
@ Sir Sputnik: you're quite right, they changed the formatting of the reports and I saw him down as number 10 so asssumed he played. Have adjusted my comments accordingly. Fenix down ( talk) 16:41, 26 March 2014 (UTC) reply
Definitely not changing position, this has been an endemic problem with AfDs for sports leagues and player articles that I have run into: teams or players at a level that would meet notability in the United States or Europe because of GNG coverage requirements, don't in other locations because of our English communities overzealous reliance on 1) Western governed international ranking systems or standards for "professional" and 2) reliable source materials, which are not produced in as large a quantity in developing countries, in as many accessible western languages on the internet. We have endemic problems in regards to coverage of non-Western public peoples, and I am reminded in these discussions how Wikipedia is perpetuating media imperialism. Sadads ( talk) 14:55, 27 March 2014 (UTC) reply
Then let's see some examples where such events have occured against consensus. Your unsupported rhetoric is as tiring as it is groundless. To refute your point quite readily, one only has to look at WP:FPL for a long list of non US / non-European leagues where there is consensus that the league is fully professional and therefore that players are generally considered notable. There are 38 of them. There are 33 US / European leagues confirmed as fully pro. Fenix down ( talk) 15:20, 27 March 2014 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 15:39, 27 March 2014 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 15:39, 27 March 2014 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 15:39, 27 March 2014 (UTC) reply
  • Keep Both players play in the Malian Première Division the top division of professional soccer in Mali. Clearly we can't hold such impoverished countries to western standards, and to do so would show WP:BIAS and systemic racism. Nfitz ( talk) 16:18, 30 March 2014 (UTC) reply
1 - you know full well the definition of FULLY professional leagues. Partially professional or those where FPL consensus is lacking are not deemed sufficient for NFOOTY. Mali is not on that list. For the millionth time, if you believe you have evidence to indicate Mali as an FPL, please present it for dicsussion at WT:FOOTY.
2 - Regardless of this, could you please show some significant reliable sources that would indicate GNG?
3 - Are you actually accusing other editors of racism, I would recommend you retract that statement or provide some evidence to back it up.
4 - Do you have any idea how patronising your comment about "inmpoverished" nations sounds? I can't believe that based on some strange subjective view of the wealth / standing of a nation you are seriously suggesting WP should have lower GNG standards?!?
5 - Not only is it patronising, it is also inherently self-contradictory, you throw unfounded accusations of bias around (again!), but in the same breath indicate you believe we should be biased against some nations by having a lower notability threshold. Fenix down ( talk) 08:10, 31 March 2014 (UTC) reply
  • Comment Fenix down Whatever we've done in the past, doesn't meant that this isn't WP:BIAS and systemic racism. And where have I ever accused any individual editor of racism? Do you understand what systemic means? Nfitz ( talk) 23:47, 5 April 2014 (UTC) reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  —  Crisco 1492 ( talk) 09:30, 6 April 2014 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Both – being a top level league is not valid rationale for an article, many top European leagues are not fully professional, and playing in them does not indicate sufficient notability. Comparing the Mali league to the German one for example is not a valid comparison. Perhaps it is at a similar level to the Irish league, players of which are not assumed automatically notable unless the WP:GNG is met. No keep arguments demonstrate that. C 679 04:31, 9 April 2014 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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