- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Whilst there are some AfDs where players have been kept because they are young and starting out a career in an FPL and have made a hanndful of appearances, this player is much different. He played once, very briefly some years ago and is now at a level far below that which WP:NFOOTY would consider notable. Whether he passes NFOOTY or not is irrelevant when the challenge is that he fails GNG. None of the keep votes in this discussion deal with that. He is unlikely to suddenly become more notable in the near future and the article can always be restored should he play at a significantly higher level later in his career. Fenix down ( talk) 07:42, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
Dobrica Tegeltija
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- Dobrica Tegeltija ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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He fails WP:GNG as he only played three entire minutes as a substitute in the 2016-17 season which probably wouldn't be enough to satisfy the criteria. HawkAussie ( talk) 08:17, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. HawkAussie ( talk) 08:17, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. HawkAussie ( talk) 08:17, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bosnia and Herzegovina-related deletion discussions. HawkAussie ( talk) 08:17, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Pharaoh of the Wizards ( talk) 06:48, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- Keep - NFOOTY passed recently, career still ongoing. Similar AfDs include: AfD/Mats van Kins, AfD/Sean Karani and AfD/Danish Irfan Azman. Quick search found this: [1], could be more out there in Cyrillic. R96Skinner ( talk) 09:04, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
- Keep passes WP:NFOOTY note the subject is only 18 years and is currently playing . Pharaoh of the Wizards ( talk) 05:40, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- Keep per WP:NFOOTBALL based on his youth and ongoing career. Giant Snowman 07:35, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- Delete – round 37 or so of this debate – according to
Soccerway, this player played for 3 minutes two years ago, having been subbed in
the 87th minute of a 3–1 win, has no senior appearances since, and now plays in a 4th-tier non-
FPL league. A technical NFOOTY pass due to the 3 minutes two years ago, but there is no reason to think that he is going to get any more NFOOTY-qualifying games anytime soon.
WP:NOTCRYSTALBALL,
WP:TOOSOON, etc. In addition, it's a total GNG fail, whether searching for "Dobrica Tegeltija" or "Добрица Тегелтија", in Serbian
[2]
[3], Bosnian
[4]
[5], or Spanish
[6], all I see is brief mentions, routine game reports, etc. This isn't a poor-access-to-sources situation; it's easy to find coverage, just not in-depth coverage. This young player is not notable, and three minutes of play two years ago is no reason to keep a stand-alone article. The "young and playing" exception–which I disagree with and think is contrary to policy anyway–shouldn't apply here because he's not playing in an FPL-listed league. –
Leviv
ich 15:59, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- In short: you disagree with the exception rule that is used. That's absolutely fine, but an individual AfD isn't the place to discuss your grievances with current consensus - as noted at AfD/Atantaake Tooma. R96Skinner ( talk) 16:51, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- Delete - Article about footballer who made a single substitute's appearance (due to an injury crisis) in a fully-pro league. He is no longer with a professional club, and the online coverage in English, Bosnian and Serbian language sources is very thin. I added a Dnevnik article to the article which was the most in-depth coverage I could find, and I believe it is far below the GNG threshold. It's possible things will change, but for now it's much
WP:TOOSOON for this article.
Jogurney (
talk) 17:00, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- I wanted to add that there are plenty of AfDs which reach the conclusion that a handful of minutes of play in a fully-pro league is not enough to satisfy NFOOTBALL when the article massively fails the GNG -
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cristian Gorgerino is a recent one that is on point.
Jogurney (
talk) 17:04, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- Sure, but Gorgerino (and Mngadi, a similar example) both disappeared upon leaving their FPL club. This player left a matter of months ago, and plays for a new club. The same logic for the 'exception rule' applies here - otherwise you get a messy create/delete loop - if he returns to FPL in January: create, but then leaves next June: delete. TOOSOON? Maybe, but then you'd have to use that for players still in an FPL club - therefore ignoring the consensus of the original exception.
R96Skinner (
talk) 17:11, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- Looking at the AfDs mentioned above, Sean Karani has made 16 appearances and Danish Irfan Azman has made 32 appearances in leagues included at WP:FPL. Those two don't really stand for the point you're trying to make as they didn't play a nominal amount (and both are still playing in those FPLs). Only Mats van Kins could (with his single substitute's appearance in a FPL) stand for it, and at least he's still under contract at a club in a fully-pro league - Dobrica Tegeltija is not. By any reasonable analysis, Tegeltija has ended his professional career (not unlike Cristan Gorgerino) by joining an amateur club playing in the Austrian regional leagues. Jogurney ( talk) 17:20, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
-
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Erik Németh also goes against the "young and playing" exception (he's only 23). I believe the "young and playing" exception so to speak is limited to footballers actually contacted to a club in a FPL (even perhaps those on loan to semi-pro or amateur clubs), and not to footballers who no longer are contracted to such a club.
Jogurney (
talk) 17:32, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- Impressive deflection from my point(s), which you haven't adressed. AfD/Sean Karani supports the fact NFOOTY pass/ongoing career is enough, hence why it was kept when the sourcing was questioned. The exception rule is regarding the player's career, as opposed to any of their FPL clubs, and exists to stop what I mentioned above from happening.
R96Skinner (
talk) 17:35, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- I was simply trying to describe what I believe consensus has been (in terms of the "young and playing" exception to GNG-compliance). I just noticed Levivich basically said the same thing above, but I've provided links to a couple of AfDs which support the idea. As far as the "messy" loop, I don't think it's a problem at all. We can easily re-create articles - it happens frequently when new players are drafted and haven't played; someone creates an article TOOSOON, it is deleted, and the work can be restored when and if they actually start playing (and there are sources to justify more than a sub-stub). If for some reason, Tegeltija signs another professional contract in a few years, we have the tools to restore this article (not that there's much to it to be honest).
Jogurney (
talk) 17:40, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- Of course, the issues with deletion weren't exactly a problem I was claiming. More so it's illogical to delete, create, delete, create when the whole point of Wikipedia is for the reader to be able to read an article, if it disappears here-and-there then what's the point? Similar reasoning exists for WP:NOTABILITYISNOTTEMPORARY. emphasis on 'similar' - I'm obviously not claiming NINT exists for this AfD. Admittedly I'm happy to discuss this with you, as I trust where you're coming from, but I can see we aren't going to change each other's beliefs here. Happy editing! R96Skinner ( talk) 17:52, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- I was simply trying to describe what I believe consensus has been (in terms of the "young and playing" exception to GNG-compliance). I just noticed Levivich basically said the same thing above, but I've provided links to a couple of AfDs which support the idea. As far as the "messy" loop, I don't think it's a problem at all. We can easily re-create articles - it happens frequently when new players are drafted and haven't played; someone creates an article TOOSOON, it is deleted, and the work can be restored when and if they actually start playing (and there are sources to justify more than a sub-stub). If for some reason, Tegeltija signs another professional contract in a few years, we have the tools to restore this article (not that there's much to it to be honest).
Jogurney (
talk) 17:40, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- Impressive deflection from my point(s), which you haven't adressed. AfD/Sean Karani supports the fact NFOOTY pass/ongoing career is enough, hence why it was kept when the sourcing was questioned. The exception rule is regarding the player's career, as opposed to any of their FPL clubs, and exists to stop what I mentioned above from happening.
R96Skinner (
talk) 17:35, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- Sure, but Gorgerino (and Mngadi, a similar example) both disappeared upon leaving their FPL club. This player left a matter of months ago, and plays for a new club. The same logic for the 'exception rule' applies here - otherwise you get a messy create/delete loop - if he returns to FPL in January: create, but then leaves next June: delete. TOOSOON? Maybe, but then you'd have to use that for players still in an FPL club - therefore ignoring the consensus of the original exception.
R96Skinner (
talk) 17:11, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- I wanted to add that there are plenty of AfDs which reach the conclusion that a handful of minutes of play in a fully-pro league is not enough to satisfy NFOOTBALL when the article massively fails the GNG -
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cristian Gorgerino is a recent one that is on point.
Jogurney (
talk) 17:04, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- Delete, per Levivich and Jogurney, whose reasons are overwhelmingly strong and which I am happy to adopt as my own.-- Mkativerata ( talk) 09:10, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
- Delete, users Levivich and Jogurney made compelling arguments. Knox490 ( talk) 20:21, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
- Weak keep The Serbian-language article has a few decent sources, and his young career is ongoing in spite of playing in one league below a FPL - expect this to be unfortunately deleted, but mostly voting to make sure there's no prejudice on creating a better article if one can be written. SportingFlyer T· C 21:29, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
- Keep - its a young player that already made its pro debut. FkpCascais ( talk) 21:20, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.