- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Black Kite (talk) 21:52, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
Abe Matamoros
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- Abe Matamoros ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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Attempted to save this article by moving it back to draft space, but page creator just blanked the draft and recreated the page. I'm not seeing how this person pass WP:BIO or WP:NFOOTY. All coverage of the subject seems to be solely in connection to the company. The awards mentioned such as the forbes 30 under 30 were all awarded to the company not the subject. Article is also overly promotional and reads more like a CV than a formal, neutral article. Sulfurboy ( talk) 05:00, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Hello, I hope you are doing well. I am just starting out with Wikipedia, so I am getting used to it all. Since there were different ways to submit an article, I got a little confused. I submitted an article for review, and then moved it from "drafts" to "article". When I did that, there seemed to be some kind of "Error" saying that there were two version of the article. That is why I tried to delete the version that was in my sandbox. I first tried to delete it by clearing the text, but that did not work. Then, I read a wikipedia article saying that by adding "db-u1" to the top of the draft, I could delete it. Was that the right way to go about it?
- In regards to the article itself, I believe it should stay on Wikipedia. Please see my responses to your comments below:
- - WP:BIO concern: In all of these articles below, Matamoros is either the main subject or significantly covered, as required by WP:GNG. Articles include information about him that is related to his work on EllieGrid Inc, his Forbes 30 under 30 nomination, his soccer career, his public speaking, and his work on InspirVive: How Mexican Immigrant Became an Entrepreneur, Tulsa World Newspaper Article, Prototyping with Matamoros, Mexican Immigrant on Forbes 30 Under 30, Forbes 30 Under 30, Ted.com Profile, Houston Dynamo Profile, TU Men's soccer Team Profile, TEDx Talk, Innovation award, Plastic News, Inspirvive
- - WP:NFOOTY concern: I think that the subject passes WP:GNG without his soccer career for the reasons stated above. I added his soccer career because it was a big part of his life and seemed notable. That being said, after looking at WP:NFOOTY the subject technically passes the criteria. It says that, “Players who have played, and managers who have managed, in a competitive game between two teams from fully professional leagues will generally be regarded as notable.” As you can see from the attached article, Abe played in the Houston Dynamo MLS Reserve league. The MLS reserve league is part of Major League Soccer (MLS), which is on the list of fully professional leagues kept by WikiProject Football. The attached source says he played against KC (Sporting Kansas City), and CHI (Chicago Fire), both of which are also professional MLS teams Matamoros Houston Dynamo Profile. Here are other soccer players that have Wikipedia articles and play in the USL Championship league (which is a lower level than the league Matamoros played in): Leo Ayala, Ray Saari.
- - I do not believe all coverage of the subject is in connection to the company. As you can see in the sources I listed above, some articles talk about his soccer career, his TEDx Talk, his Forbes 30 Under 30 nomination, and his work on InspirVive
- - You are right, he won many of the awards on behalf of the company. I have removed them from the article. However, the Forbes 30 under 30 award was awarded to him as an individual, not the company. Matamoros and his two founders received the same award, but they are not awards for the company. Please see the Forbes sources I attached. You will see that the award is given to individuals. It just so happens that all of the company’s co-founders received the award. That is why they are under, “EllieGrid co-founders”. Forbes 30 Under 30, Immigrant makes Forbes 30 under 30 list
- - You are right, parts of the article do sound promotional. I have removed all of the fluff. Please let me know if there is anything else I should remove. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LamBiosInc ( talk • contribs) 06:40, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Texas-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 07:35, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 07:35, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 07:35, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 07:37, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Mexico-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 07:38, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 07:44, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Delete - fails GNG and NFOOTBALL. Never played for Dynamo first team per this. Giant Snowman 09:14, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- DELETE: fails NFOOTY. Mightytotems ( talk) 09:29, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Keep Firstly what a horrible nomination I don't think the nominator has truly done WP:BEFORE, secondly WP:NFOOTBALL is completely irrelevant here, this is simply down to does he pass WP:GNG, hell lets have a look! For one Forbes do not do profiles on nobodies, so Forbes have profiled him, then written some more about him, Forbes again, profiled by Houston business journal, not to mention Ted Talks, you actually have to be relevant to the industry to even be remotely suitable to be a speaker on Ted Talks. Here is his product on Med Starter, also on his company website there are also sources to more stuff which also adds to GNG, awards and press links. GiantSnowman and Mightytotems Seriously, fails NFooty, that was always going to happen, saddens me you haven't looked deeper into him or the article for the other stuff. Govvy ( talk) 11:33, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- The Forbes 'profile' is about his company and says "Abe Matamoros, a Mexican immigrant, came up with the idea of a smart pillbox to help his bedridden grandfather, who had fallen behind on medications. Today, EllieGrid, which he founded during college with friends Regina Vatterott and Hieu Nguyen, expects $2 million revenue from sales in 37 countries" - that's it. Not enough to meet GNG. Plenty of people I have worked with over the years have had similar stuff in Forbes/Bloomberg etc, it does not make them notable. Giant Snowman 13:58, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
-
Govvy, everything you wrote suggests potential GNG for the company he founded, not himself.
Mightytotems (
talk) 14:02, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Mightytotems and GiantSnowmanI think there might be some confusion on what Forbe's "Forbes 30 under 30" list is. Hopefully, I can clear things up. Every year Forbes creates a list of the "brightest game changers" in the world under the age of 30. The recognition is not given to companies, it is given to individuals. The Forbes articles you see talk about the company because the company helped bring him success. While you may know people that Forbes has written articles about, there is a difference between just getting Forbes to write an article about you, and making the "Forbes 30 under 30" list. I hope this helps clear things up. Also, if you take a look at the TED talk Matamoros gave, he does not talk about his company; so, not all coverage is related to the company Abe Matamoros TED Talk. I can assure you that only notable people get asked to give TED talks and get selected to be on Forbe's 30 under 30 list. That being said, I did notice that I did not include the link to his TED talk in the original article and that I did not adequately explain what Forbes 30 under 30 was, so I can understand your concern. Now that I have better explained what Forbes 30 under 30 is and you have seen the TED talk, does it make a little more sense why I wrote the article about Matamoros? I am sorry I did not do a better job of explaining this before.
- By the way, thank you for raising these concerns. I am just starting to get involved in the Wikipedia community, so I think having these discussions with you guys is great practice for me.
LamBiosInc (
talk) 15:39, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- LamBiosInc, It was a TEDX talk not a TED talk, which means it wasn't officially sponsored by TED, there's a very large distinction between the two. Even if it was a sanctioned TED talk that isn't enough to establish someone's notability. Further, inclusion on the Forbes single 30 under 30 list might show notability, however this is a subset of that list and the coverage is on one the Forbes blog sites, there's hundreds of these handed out each year to different people. Further the 30 under list talks about the creators of the company as a whole, not Abe as an individual.
-
Govvy, you should read up on the distinction between TED and TEDx talks, also the fact that you think primary press links that are published by his company lends credence to notability is very troubling. This also isn't an issue of allowing the article to not fully develop. Twice the page creator moved the page to mainspace instead of going through the AfC process, in the most recent draftify a message fully explaining the issues was given including notability and sourcing concerns and that they should go through the AfC process or this might face AfD. Page creator still went ahead and published it again.
Sulfurboy (
talk) 16:05, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- @
Sulfurboy: Troubling? Those press links listed are clearly other companies that EllieGrid has picked up, they didn't publish them themselves, you really need to choose your words more carefully. I know the difference between Tedx and Ted! Forbes blog is still notable. Hell, I bet if people spend a good bit of time reviewing the other links found and rewrote the article then it would be a lot better. At the moment, I think the article is poor, yet from what I've seen on the internet, I feel he passes GNG, if people don't want to do their homework, then that's not my problem, there are more people editing wikipedia without regard for their actions than actually researching media links to create a decent article.
Govvy (
talk) 16:27, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Govvy, The ad hominems are a bit much. Forbes blog posts are not inherently notable nor are the fully reliable as there is no editorial oversight. Again, relying on what's stated on the company's site is relying on a primary source too closely related to the subject and press releases are largely irrelevant. As stated by another editor already, the company may be notable from the sources provided, but the individual is not as there is no standalone, secondary coverage of the subject independent of the company. Sulfurboy ( talk) 16:36, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- @
Sulfurboy: Troubling? Those press links listed are clearly other companies that EllieGrid has picked up, they didn't publish them themselves, you really need to choose your words more carefully. I know the difference between Tedx and Ted! Forbes blog is still notable. Hell, I bet if people spend a good bit of time reviewing the other links found and rewrote the article then it would be a lot better. At the moment, I think the article is poor, yet from what I've seen on the internet, I feel he passes GNG, if people don't want to do their homework, then that's not my problem, there are more people editing wikipedia without regard for their actions than actually researching media links to create a decent article.
Govvy (
talk) 16:27, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- @
Sulfurboy:, So
LamBiosInc posts a biography online today of the 20 March 2020, does some hard work by finding some links, trying to write an article about someone to pass WP:GNG,
[1],
[2],
[3],
[4], etc. You don't even give him a chance to update the article, ask for additional links, improve the article, refine the article, you make me feel sick, that's not how a wikipedia is suppose to operate, you should give people time to improve on their work, not send it to AfD to be done with as soon as they have created it. Shame on you sir.
Govvy (
talk) 16:52, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- @
Govvy: that's what userspace draft is for. Also
Sulfurboy has addressed in detail above how this is not a case of not letting an article fully develop before review.
Mightytotems (
talk) 17:23, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- user:sulferboyI would like to clarify the steps I took to submit the article because I think my ignorance has resulted in you thinking I was trying to be sneaky. I am very sorry about this. I do not want to start my Wikipedia experience on the wrong foot. Please allow me to explain. When I first wrote the article in my sandbox, a pop up asked me to submit the article for review, which I did. A couple of days later I found out that as an auto-confirmed user I could just move the article from “draft” to “main” space, which I did. It is my understanding that I only did this once... Coincidently, I think that I did this within minutes of you denying my draft. Since Wikipedia allowed me to move the article, I assumed I was ok. To be honest, I was a little confused when my draft was denied, but the system allowed me to move the article to the main space. I just figured Wikipedia was ok with me improving the article while it was in the main space. I now see that just because Wikipedia allows users to move articles to the main space doesn't mean one should. Anyways, after I moved the article, my plan was to use your suggestions to keep editing the article on the main space (which I have done). I then proceeded to delete the draft, because the article in the main space had what looked like an error message saying that there were two versions of the article. I first tried to delete the draft by clearing the content in the draft, but that did not work. I then read that I could delete it by adding "db-u1" to the top, so that is what I did. I can understand why you might think I was trying to go around you, but I hope you can see that I did not have any bad intentions.
- @
Govvy: that's what userspace draft is for. Also
Sulfurboy has addressed in detail above how this is not a case of not letting an article fully develop before review.
Mightytotems (
talk) 17:23, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- By the way, thank you for raising these concerns. I am just starting to get involved in the Wikipedia community, so I think having these discussions with you guys is great practice for me.
LamBiosInc (
talk) 15:39, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Regarding my article about "Abe Matamoros", since I have read many Wikipedia articles about people less notable than him, I thought he might be a good subject to make my first Wikipedia article on. As someone who follows soccer, there are hundreds of Wikipedia articles of soccer players whose biggest accomplishment is playing in the USL soccer league. Since this league is a lower level soccer league than the one Matamoros played in when he was on the Houston Dynamo professional reserve team, I figured his soccer history along with his success as an entrepreneur would make him notable enough. Not many people have started a multi-million dollar company, played soccer at a professional level, been on Forbes 30 under 30, and given a TEDx talk by the age of 27. From the looks of it, I think I just did a poor job of presenting the information. Would you be willing to help me with this?
- Thank you,
-
LamBiosInc (
talk) 18:11, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- LamBiosInc, Playing on a reserve team or u19 club does not count as playing for a fully professional league. This has already been pointed out. Also, just because other articles exist doesn't mean this one should WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS isn't really a valid argument here. Tons of people have started multi-million dollar companies and not all of them are notable. There have been about 50,000 TEDx talks, not all people who give one are notable. Forbes (and blog affiliates) give 600+ "30 under 30" awards each year, and again, it's about the people at that company not just Abe himself. If this person was truly notable then there would be plenty of reliable, secondary coverage of the individual separate from his involvement with the company. Cheers Sulfurboy ( talk) 18:46, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
-
user:sulferboy There is a big difference between the "Professional reserve team" and a U19 club team. The professional reserve team is made up of the professional MLS soccer players that for some reason did not get called up to play with the first team that week. This means that Matamoros was playing with professional MLS players on a professional team at the age of 17. Please take a look at the roster attached:
Houston Dynamo Reserve Team. As you can see on the roster, Abe was playing with professional soccer players (all who have a wikipedia page). In short, the MLS reserve league is a professional League and is a higher level than other leagues like the USL (which have most of their player on wikipedia). So, even though he did not play a first-team game, according to WP:NFOOTY, he just has to have played in a professional league.
LamBiosInc (
talk) 19:13, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
-
LamBiosInc, I understand the difference between the two, and neither count under
WP:NFOOTY standards. And no, just being part of of a professional organization is not the guideline outlined in the
WP:NFOOTY, they need to make a start in a competitive game or come on as a substitute. Who has or hasn't played with teammate wise also has no bearing on his notability and as already outlined
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS isn't really a credible argument.
Sulfurboy (
talk) 20:14, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
-
user:sulferboyI probably should have mentioned this since the beginning, but he did do both of those things you mentioned. He started in a competitive professional game and came on as a substitute in a competitive professional game. The attached link shows evidence that he started a game against the Chicago fire on 4/24/2011, and came on as a substitute against Sporting Kansas City on 4/11/11
Proof of participation in professional games. This link also shows that the two games were official league games
Dynamo Reserve Team Games. I am sorry I did not include these two games in the article from the beginning. Since his involvement in these two games show that he does comply with
WP:NFOOTY, should I include them in the article? Thanks,
LamBiosInc (
talk) 20:59, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
-
LamBiosInc, Again, reserves matches do not count. Not sure how else to get this message across.
Sulfurboy (
talk) 21:53, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- user:sulferboy Nowhere does it say that Reserve Professional League games do not count. The reserve league is a professional league that is part of the MLS, and WP:NFOOTY just says it has to be a professional league. It does not say it has to be the highest level league in the country. Do you have evidence to show that it is not a professional league? In fact, the MLS reserve league recently merged with USL pro league which according to, list of fully professional leagues kept by WikiProject Football is also a notable league. LamBiosInc ( talk) 22:20, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
-
LamBiosInc, Again, reserves matches do not count. Not sure how else to get this message across.
Sulfurboy (
talk) 21:53, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
-
user:sulferboyI probably should have mentioned this since the beginning, but he did do both of those things you mentioned. He started in a competitive professional game and came on as a substitute in a competitive professional game. The attached link shows evidence that he started a game against the Chicago fire on 4/24/2011, and came on as a substitute against Sporting Kansas City on 4/11/11
Proof of participation in professional games. This link also shows that the two games were official league games
Dynamo Reserve Team Games. I am sorry I did not include these two games in the article from the beginning. Since his involvement in these two games show that he does comply with
WP:NFOOTY, should I include them in the article? Thanks,
LamBiosInc (
talk) 20:59, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
-
LamBiosInc, I understand the difference between the two, and neither count under
WP:NFOOTY standards. And no, just being part of of a professional organization is not the guideline outlined in the
WP:NFOOTY, they need to make a start in a competitive game or come on as a substitute. Who has or hasn't played with teammate wise also has no bearing on his notability and as already outlined
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS isn't really a credible argument.
Sulfurboy (
talk) 20:14, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
-
user:sulferboy There is a big difference between the "Professional reserve team" and a U19 club team. The professional reserve team is made up of the professional MLS soccer players that for some reason did not get called up to play with the first team that week. This means that Matamoros was playing with professional MLS players on a professional team at the age of 17. Please take a look at the roster attached:
Houston Dynamo Reserve Team. As you can see on the roster, Abe was playing with professional soccer players (all who have a wikipedia page). In short, the MLS reserve league is a professional League and is a higher level than other leagues like the USL (which have most of their player on wikipedia). So, even though he did not play a first-team game, according to WP:NFOOTY, he just has to have played in a professional league.
LamBiosInc (
talk) 19:13, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Delete - Article about semi-pro soccer player and entrepreneur which doesn't satisfy any of our notability guidelines. He never played in a fully-pro league (reserves matches are not MLS league matches), and while the Medium.com blogpost/article is non-routine coverage, it is primarily about his business/product. If there was more in-depth coverage, I might think WP:GNG could be satisfied, but the Forbes and Houston Chronicle articles are not close (and mostly about his business/product). Jogurney ( talk) 21:26, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
-
user:Jogurney Do you have evidence to back the claim that the MLS reserve league is not a professional league? This is simply not true. It is indeed a professional league. That is why it recently merged with USL pro which is another professional league that is also recognized as a notable league by,
list of fully professional leagues kept by WikiProject Football. Nearly every USL Pro player and every reserve league player has a Wikipedia profile, so there is a lot of precedence. Thank you,
LamBiosInc (
talk) 22:20, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- LamBiosInc, The games the player played in were before the merger making this point largely moot. The Wikipedia Project for Football actually has quite an exhaustive list of now defunct leagues that they have deemed as once fully professional and the MLS Reserves isn't one of them. Considering their extensive involvement with the project, Jogurney may be the most qualified out of any of us to know what leagues qualify under WP:FOOTY guidelines, so deference may be prudent here. Sulfurboy ( talk) 00:14, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- LamBiosInc, if you believe the
MLS Reserve League was a fully-pro league in 2011, you'll need to provide some evidence of that. It is my understanding that unpaid academy players participated which is enough for it not to be "fully-pro" (since the idea of "fully-pro" is the players make a living playing football as opposed to part-time or amateur players who have other work to make their livings). I'm highly skeptical that this league was fully-pro, but if you have a source indicating otherwise, please share it. All the best.
Jogurney (
talk) 01:28, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- Jogurney Thank you for being open to new evidence. The MLS reserve league was considered "fully-pro" in the same way the USL Championship league is considered "fully-pro". Here is what I mean by that. As you may know, the USL is one of the leagues that Wikipedia considers "fully-pro" according to, list of fully professional leagues kept by WikiProject Football. What is important to note is that the USL is considered "fully-pro", even though academy players that are not getting paid are on the roster. Here is an article for reference: USL Academy contract. The USL is still considered "fully-pro", because the majority of the team is on a paid contract and a handful of players are on an academy contract. The reason academy players are not paid, is so that they do not loose their college eligibility. The MLS reserves are exactly the same. The majority of the players are on a professional contract, and they put a handful of academy players on an academy contract. Attached is a roster of the team where you can see that nearly all the players are professional MLS players and only a handful are on an academy contract Dynamo Reserve Team Roster. I believe that WP:FOOTY mentions, "Youth players are not notable unless they satisfy one of the statements above", specifically for the situation at hand. Matamoros was younger, but since he started and "played" for the team, he fits the criteria stated in WP:FOOTY. I guess what I am trying to say is that, if the USL Championship league is considered "fully-pro", than the MLS reserve league has to be considered "fully-pro" because they have the same structure regarding academy players. In addition to this, the fact that MLS reserve teams are playing in the USL Championship, should go to show that reserve teams are considered professional teams even though they have academy players. For reference Sporting Kansas City II is another example of a reserve team that is in USL Championship. Please let me know if you have any other questions. Thank you, LamBiosInc ( talk) 05:16, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
-
user:Jogurney Do you have evidence to back the claim that the MLS reserve league is not a professional league? This is simply not true. It is indeed a professional league. That is why it recently merged with USL pro which is another professional league that is also recognized as a notable league by,
list of fully professional leagues kept by WikiProject Football. Nearly every USL Pro player and every reserve league player has a Wikipedia profile, so there is a lot of precedence. Thank you,
LamBiosInc (
talk) 22:20, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Keep - The evidence presented proves that Matamoros fits the WP:FOOTY criteria. The evidence shows that Matamoros "played" in a professional league that is run and sanctioned by the MLS, a league that is in, list of fully professional leagues kept by WikiProject Football. I looked into this further and learned that, at the time in question, the reserve team was not a separate team from the first team. The reserve team was for first team players that did not get much playing time with the first team that week. If you look at each professional player on the reserve team roster, they were all on MLS first team contracts (not on any sort of semi-pro contract). In fact, 6 of the players on the reserve team roster were first team national team players ( Will Bruin, Je-Vaughn Watson, Bobby Boswell, Eddie Robinson, Jermaine Taylor, Colin Clark). Players of this caliber would not and could not be playing in a non-professional league while they are on an MLS first team professional contract. The evidence also shows that other leagues such as the USL championship are considered “fully-pro”, even though they have players on “academy contracts”. Lastly, I believe someone who obviously played soccer at a professional level and is on the Forbes 30 under 30 list for something completely separate (like inventing a medical device and starting a successful company around it) is definately notable; but, I know that is just my opinion and not as clear cut as the argument specifically regarding his soccer career. Olympian100 ( talk) 17:02, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- Delete - per above (especially Jogurney's reasoning) -- BlameRuiner ( talk) 18:41, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
-
BlameRuiner,
Jogurney asked
LamBiosInc to provide evidence to back his claim that the MLS reserve league is a fully professional league and
LamBiosInc did just that. Did you take a look at the evidence? If so, how can you say the USL championship is a fully professional league and The MLS reserve League is not?
Olympian100 (
talk) 19:46, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- He has not yet done so, Olympian/LamBiosInc.
Jogurney (
talk) 20:02, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
-
Jogurney Can you please explain why the USL championship league should be considered "fully-pro" and the MLS reserve league should not be considered "fully-pro"? Either both leagues are "fully-pro" or neither are "fully-pro". If neither are "fully-pro", than that means that the hundreds of USL championship and MLS reserve team players that have a Wikipedia article should have their article taken down (which is obviously rediculous). I have presented my case with ample evidence. Meanwhile, others have disagreed with me without providing any evidence or counter arguements. If you could please take another look at the evidence I put together and answer my question with evidence, or atleast a counter argument, I would appreciate it.
- Matamoros was one of eight academy players on the
2011 squad. In short, he was not a paid professional player, and any club (if you consider the reserves a "club") with 8 academy players on it is not a full-time professional outfit. It doesn't help to say some full-time players participated in the club, or that other leagues listed as
WP:FPL use academy players too (maybe those should be removed). We've never treated an academy player as playing in a fully-pro league.
Jogurney (
talk) 22:32, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
-
Jogurney The
WP:FOOTY guidelines do not say anything about having to be a paid professional or about not allowing academy players. Saying that you have never treated an academy player as playing in a fully-pro league does not seem like a valid argument. That could be because 99.9% of all academy players have never played in professional games like Matamoros, and the ones that have, did not have a wikipedia articles written about them. That being said, I think that we should stick to the guidlines that have been set and not use other guidlines. The guidlines state that notable players are, "Players that have played in a competitive game between two teams from fully professional leagues". So, the million dollar question is, "Should an MLS reserve team be considered "fully-pro", or not?" If an MLS reserve team is considered "fully-pro", Matatmoros fits the
WP:FOOTY guidlines. If it is not considered fully-pro, Matamoros does not fit the
WP:FOOTY guidlines. Considering the structure with academy contracts, I completely understand why you think it should not be considered "fully-pro". I do not agree, but I understand. However, according to the
list of fully professional leagues kept by WikiProject Football, all MLS reserve teams are considered "fully-pro" (even with academy players), because they play in the USL Championship league. According to the
list of fully professional leagues kept by WikiProject Football, all MLS reserve teams were also considered "fully-pro" in 2011, because they were in the MLS league. The
list of fully professional leagues kept by WikiProject Football does not destinguish between "MLS reserve league" and "MLS first team league", because they were considered the same league back then (I explained this when I mentioned that the reserve team pro players were also first team players). If you believe that the
list of fully professional leagues kept by WikiProject Football is wrong, you would be going against precedent, so the burden of proof should be on you. Now, you may or may not be right about the
list of fully professional leagues kept by WikiProject Football being wrong; however, don't you think you should appeal the guidlines and have them changed before deleting an article that currently fits the criteria?
LamBiosInc (
talk) 02:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
- You're wrong. The
MLS Reserve League is not included in the fully-pro leagues at
WP:FPL. You haven't provided any evidence to the contrary, so I kindly suggest taking your view to that Talk page since it's just cluttering this discussion (and not advancing your argument).
Jogurney (
talk) 13:45, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
- Jogurney Did you read what I said? The MLS reserve league is not distinguished from the MLS first team league on the WP:FPL because they are both part of the “MLS”, which is the first American league on the list. You have not provided any evidence to prove otherwise. Could you please do that? Just because you say something is wrong, does not mean it is wrong. You should provide evidence like you are asking me to do. Wikipedia differentiates between “EFL Championship”, “EFL League one” and “EFL league two”, but if it were to just say “EFL” you would not assume it is just referring to “EFL Championship”. However, that is exactly what you are doing. The WP:FPL says the MLS is considered fully professional. The MLS reserve league is part of the MLS, so according to WP:FPL the MLS reserve league is considered fully professional. Here is evidence that the MLS reserve league was part of the MLS.
- 1. The MLS reserve league was run and sanctioned by the MLS as a professional league MLS Reserve League
- 2. MLS reserve league would not be able to use the “MLS” trademark if it was not part of the MLS
- 3. All MLS reserve league players (even academy players) were on MLS contracts Houston Dynamo Reserves
- Can you please provide evidence to show that the MLS reserve league was not part of the MLS? If you just do this one thing, I will leave the argument alone.
- You're wrong. The
MLS Reserve League is not included in the fully-pro leagues at
WP:FPL. You haven't provided any evidence to the contrary, so I kindly suggest taking your view to that Talk page since it's just cluttering this discussion (and not advancing your argument).
Jogurney (
talk) 13:45, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
-
Jogurney The
WP:FOOTY guidelines do not say anything about having to be a paid professional or about not allowing academy players. Saying that you have never treated an academy player as playing in a fully-pro league does not seem like a valid argument. That could be because 99.9% of all academy players have never played in professional games like Matamoros, and the ones that have, did not have a wikipedia articles written about them. That being said, I think that we should stick to the guidlines that have been set and not use other guidlines. The guidlines state that notable players are, "Players that have played in a competitive game between two teams from fully professional leagues". So, the million dollar question is, "Should an MLS reserve team be considered "fully-pro", or not?" If an MLS reserve team is considered "fully-pro", Matatmoros fits the
WP:FOOTY guidlines. If it is not considered fully-pro, Matamoros does not fit the
WP:FOOTY guidlines. Considering the structure with academy contracts, I completely understand why you think it should not be considered "fully-pro". I do not agree, but I understand. However, according to the
list of fully professional leagues kept by WikiProject Football, all MLS reserve teams are considered "fully-pro" (even with academy players), because they play in the USL Championship league. According to the
list of fully professional leagues kept by WikiProject Football, all MLS reserve teams were also considered "fully-pro" in 2011, because they were in the MLS league. The
list of fully professional leagues kept by WikiProject Football does not destinguish between "MLS reserve league" and "MLS first team league", because they were considered the same league back then (I explained this when I mentioned that the reserve team pro players were also first team players). If you believe that the
list of fully professional leagues kept by WikiProject Football is wrong, you would be going against precedent, so the burden of proof should be on you. Now, you may or may not be right about the
list of fully professional leagues kept by WikiProject Football being wrong; however, don't you think you should appeal the guidlines and have them changed before deleting an article that currently fits the criteria?
LamBiosInc (
talk) 02:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
- Matamoros was one of eight academy players on the
2011 squad. In short, he was not a paid professional player, and any club (if you consider the reserves a "club") with 8 academy players on it is not a full-time professional outfit. It doesn't help to say some full-time players participated in the club, or that other leagues listed as
WP:FPL use academy players too (maybe those should be removed). We've never treated an academy player as playing in a fully-pro league.
Jogurney (
talk) 22:32, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
-
Jogurney Can you please explain why the USL championship league should be considered "fully-pro" and the MLS reserve league should not be considered "fully-pro"? Either both leagues are "fully-pro" or neither are "fully-pro". If neither are "fully-pro", than that means that the hundreds of USL championship and MLS reserve team players that have a Wikipedia article should have their article taken down (which is obviously rediculous). I have presented my case with ample evidence. Meanwhile, others have disagreed with me without providing any evidence or counter arguements. If you could please take another look at the evidence I put together and answer my question with evidence, or atleast a counter argument, I would appreciate it.
- He has not yet done so, Olympian/LamBiosInc.
Jogurney (
talk) 20:02, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
-
BlameRuiner,
Jogurney asked
LamBiosInc to provide evidence to back his claim that the MLS reserve league is a fully professional league and
LamBiosInc did just that. Did you take a look at the evidence? If so, how can you say the USL championship is a fully professional league and The MLS reserve League is not?
Olympian100 (
talk) 19:46, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
Jogurney I found new evidence that might be of interest to you. Don't worry, it has nothing to do with the MLS. According to WP:NCOLLATH , "College athletes and coaches are notable if they have been the subject of non-trivial media coverage beyond merely a repeating of their statistics, mentions in game summaries, or other WP:ROUTINE coverage. Examples include players who have won a national award (such as those listed in Template:College Football Awards or the equivalent in another sport).” According to Template:College Football Awards the offensive Player of the year for the American Conference tournament is considered a national award in football. Matamoros won offensive MVP of the American Conference tournament for soccer. I have included sources and a video clip from the TV interview that took place when he won the award. LamBiosInc maybe if did a little more research on his college career you would not have had to go through all this... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AytDHj_4e-8 https://tulsahurricane.com/sports/mens-soccer/roster/abe-matamoros/2397 https://www.houstondynamo.com/es/post/2014/11/17/dynamo-academy-alumni-take-home-conference-honors-and-gear-ncaa-tournament Olympian100 ( talk) 00:44, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
- I don't know why you are !voting twice, but you are misreading COLLATH, and Matamoros didn't win a "national award."
Jogurney (
talk) 01:30, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
- Jogurney, you are once again denying someones claims without evidence or any sort of argument. Why do you say that the award for offensive player of the year for the American conference is not a national award? The
WP:NCOLLATH clearly states that, "awards such as those listed in
Template:College Football Awards, or the equivalent in another sport” are considered national awards. If you go into
Template:College Football Awards it clearly states that
American Athletic Conference football individual awards are national awards.
LamBiosInc (
talk) 02:43, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
- LamBiosInc, LamBiosInc, to avoid confusion you should stop commenting with multiple accounts. Sulfurboy ( talk) 06:20, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
- Jogurney, you are once again denying someones claims without evidence or any sort of argument. Why do you say that the award for offensive player of the year for the American conference is not a national award? The
WP:NCOLLATH clearly states that, "awards such as those listed in
Template:College Football Awards, or the equivalent in another sport” are considered national awards. If you go into
Template:College Football Awards it clearly states that
American Athletic Conference football individual awards are national awards.
LamBiosInc (
talk) 02:43, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
- Keep For what it’s worth, I was looking for information on Abe Matamoros and found what I needed — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:100D:B050:BC61:5427:7CA5:4176:5B0E ( talk) 02:57, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
- Comment - this discussion is way out of hand. If we really want to pursue this MLR Reserve League case, then we should draftify this player for now, vote for this league on
WT:FPL, and then get back here again. MLS Reserve, MLS proper and USL Championship are not the same leagues, so they should be evaluated separately. PS And I don't think this anonymous vote above me counts, does it? --
BlameRuiner (
talk) 06:04, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
- BlameRuiner, Yeah, that vote and the Olympian vote are almost certainly LamBiosInc. It's very unlikely that two separate people would decide to participate in wikipedia for the first time by voting on a relatively obscure AfD. I don't think it's fooling anyone. Sulfurboy ( talk) 06:18, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
-
BlameRuiner and
Sulfurboy I have no problem if the leagues on
WT:FPL are reviewed as suggested. I think that is a good idea. That being said, if reviewing the leagues is going to drag things out even more, why don't we just pursue so the
WP:NCOLLATH case? I think that case is more clear. Matamoros won a national award that is listed in the
American Athletic Conference football individual awards. Have you guys had a chance to look at that? If so, I would love to get your thoughts. Lastly, the people that have voted "keep" are not me. If there is a way to prove that, please let me know and I will take the steps necessary to do that.Thanks,
LamBiosInc (
talk) 14:34, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
-
LamBiosInc, Dude you're linking to a list of American football awards, not association football. Further, the award was for a specific tournament not just a season long award. There's literally thousands of people each year awarded tournament MVP awards across college sports. Please stop pinging me with this nonsense.
Sulfurboy (
talk) 15:02, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
- Sulfurboy, I will not ping you anymore as requested, but you made a statement that is incorrect. In college soccer, the season is considered a "tournament", so it is a season long award. Every conference game played throughout the conference season leads up to the conference championship game, which is referred to in the TV Interview I attached. Also, as mentioned in the TV interview, winning the conference tournamaent allowed his team to move on to the post-season which is called the "NCAA tournament" (notice it also has the word "tournament" in it). You do not move on to the post season by winning a "specfic tournement", you move on to the post season by doing well in the season. The reason I am linking the American Athletic Conference football individual awards to the award Matamoros recieved is because WP:NCOLLATH states "awards such as those listed in Template:College Football Awards, OR THE EQUIVALENT IN OTHER SPORTS", are considered national awards. LamBiosInc ( talk) 18:08, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
-
LamBiosInc, Dude you're linking to a list of American football awards, not association football. Further, the award was for a specific tournament not just a season long award. There's literally thousands of people each year awarded tournament MVP awards across college sports. Please stop pinging me with this nonsense.
Sulfurboy (
talk) 15:02, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
-
BlameRuiner and
Sulfurboy I have no problem if the leagues on
WT:FPL are reviewed as suggested. I think that is a good idea. That being said, if reviewing the leagues is going to drag things out even more, why don't we just pursue so the
WP:NCOLLATH case? I think that case is more clear. Matamoros won a national award that is listed in the
American Athletic Conference football individual awards. Have you guys had a chance to look at that? If so, I would love to get your thoughts. Lastly, the people that have voted "keep" are not me. If there is a way to prove that, please let me know and I will take the steps necessary to do that.Thanks,
LamBiosInc (
talk) 14:34, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
- Delete, this article fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTY, with there being no independent significant coverage of him and given he played in a league that does not meet the NFOOOTY standards, regardless of what some people are attempting to claim. The Keep votes given are quite frankly verging on ridiculous at this stage. Devonian Wombat ( talk) 10:50, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.