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Again, welcome!— Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) • ( yo?); 21:02, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi! Before unilaterally changing the spelling on Kiev, please obtain consensus for the change on the talk-page. You should probably first read (or at least skim) the previous discussions on the subject ( Talk:Kiev/Naming issue Archive01 (2003-2004), Talk:Kiev/Naming issue Archive02 (January-August 2005) and Talk:Kiev/naming/Archive 3). Thanks, Rasmus (talk) 12:17, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks - done. Please see my question on this at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kiev#More_Kiev_Kyiv. The answer to that question is appreciated.
Serhiy 14:35, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Great initiative. See Bombay, Siam, and the Ivory Coast for a few examples where Wikipedia respects the naming conventions of sovereign states.-- tufkaa 15:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
And just for the cases like this, there is a Do not feed the trolls official guideline. Take care, Ukrained. -- Irpen 19:00, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Guys, your friendly suggestions are much appreciated, and I will most likely be contributing to the Ukrainian portal - both in English and, first of all, in Ukrainian at the Ukrainian-language portal... I do think WP is a great idea, and don't mind spending a modicum of my time regularly on enlarging it. But let me also draw your attention to the fact that you have not answered my main question - regarding the procedure for changing "Kiev" to "Kyiv" on WP. Given that you already started discussing the substance of this issue (quote: "use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article"), let me ask you this. The Economist (you know what The Economist is? www.economist.com) and the United Nations are just two organisations that already use the spelling "Kyiv". Very prominent organisations, let me highlight. And more others do the same. So, if en masse the English speaking populus has not yet caught up to the change, is that a reason not to introduce that change here? Also, how do you know and define what the most commonly used version is? Do you commission a research project to carry out a survey on the streets of New York, Kyiv, London or Tokio? Do you rely on a comprehensive survey of internet? How do you actually know that intelligent people en masse have not yet caught up with this change in the usage of English, that they haven't been reading The Economist regularly for example and so know what happens in the world?
I am jumping at this issue because it is an important one. I would appreciate the answer to my original question - that would save me considerable time. Best, Serhiy 17:51, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Serhiy, I think I said earlier that the best way to define the modern usage is to check the modern media usage. In order to reduce the estimate's error, it is best to restrict the search to the Major Media, that is most well-known papers, major TV and Radio networks, etc. This is better than google news search because the latter surveys even semi-blog news sites with no consistent editorial policy while the major media is staffed with the editors who proofread the journalism work for the consistensy with their style manual. Fortunately, we don't need to comission a research project. There are search engines, some of them not free, but I have a supscription, who allow to check "major only" option in the media search. I did that and not once. At the same time, I checked Britannica and Columbia. I found that their titling of the articles is always consistent with my results of the major media search. Perhaps, they do the same thing. I just don't know. I ran this search and continue to run it every some months. As per this, I moved Kharkiv and Luhansk to their current Ukrainin-based name locations, despite these cities are largely Russophone, because the latter is of small relevance to the English usage. My conclusion was that all Oblast centers save Kiev and OdeSSa have a Ukrainian-based spelling in the media, even Mykolaiv, despite being originally named by a Russian, Potyomkin, to honor St. Nicholas.
BTW, Economist, like all major media uses Kiev too, see [1] vs [2]. Good luck. -- Irpen 18:10, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, Serhiy! It's nice to see more Ukrainian users at Wikipedia. I would suggest you however do not start with changing the spelling of our capital. We have to wait for some time until "Kyiv" becomes more common to English-speaking people.
There are, however, more impotant things. Namely the factual accuracy of the articles. Just one example: in the article Russian architecture, Kievan churches are mentioned as if they were samples of Russian architecture. There is a group of users ( User:Irpen, User:Kuban kazak, User:Ghirlandajo, etc.) that persistantly push this POV (point of view).
You can find a lot of similar inaccuracies in other articles. These people break the Wikipedia policy and use the site for pro-Russian/Soviet propaganda. For instance User:Irpen and User:Kuban kazak insisted on using Soviet propaganda term "liberation" for retaking Lviv by the Soviet Army.
Finally, you can find a lot of example when transliteration from Russian is used for Ukrainian city names, while respectable English sources use transliteration from Ukrainian. These people start edit wars against everybody who tries to correct it.
So there are a lot of things to do and "Kiev" is not the major problem. But we need a larger support to improve Wikipedia and clean it from the anti-Ukraqinian propaganda.-- AndriyK 18:18, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
To respond to some of the points above.
User:Kuban kazak, you use the term "the English language" as if it were something set in stone. But that is not the case. Any language, and especially the English language which is rapidly becoming the language of global international communication and so gets enriched every day with new words and word forms from all over the world, is constantly changing and evolving. A decade ago major media would write "Peking", now they write "Beijin" - because they finally listened to the change made by the Chinese people. This process takes time, and in the case of "Kyiv/Kiev", the English language is in the middle of transition - from the old Russian-influenced "Kiev" to the more normal/authentic-based "Kyiv". Now, Wikipedia is rapidly becoming a major global media in itself (see
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=E1_GSJQNNR), and I don't see any reason why it shouldn't place itself among those that show example of a good practice rather than those that follow in the rear. If that happens, millions of people around the world will be influenced by WP as one of the major media sources, and will change their own usage of the word to "Kyiv". That is why I want to make this change, and I invite everyone sharing this view to think how to do this. For me, the first step is to understand how exactly the WP rules work in terms of making the change here in a "legal"/excepted by the WP community way, and to follow those rules to make the change (or, maybe, to try to change the rules if necessary..)
On some other points - I agree churchers are important as well.. but I am less of an expert in those, and also my interest now is in pushing this change. But don't worry - eventually we'll do everything.. that's the main benefit of something like WP - it may actually be here even when we are no more, and other people will be improving it further and further.
Finally, on the request re Kyiv metro stations (and please don't correct my usage of Kyiv here - this is not a main article but a conversation, and I am speaking here as I am speaking normally in Kyiv or elsewhere). I am not based in Kyiv, but I happen to be there once in a month or so, and will be happy to take the pictures. Please let me know station names and any details (the desired rakurs etc). Serhiy 18:45, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for expansion of the Cherkasy Oblast article. You inspired me to follow up a little bit. Actually, each and every Oblast arricle could use much expansion. Maybe you don't know that Britannica has separate articles for each Oblast that could be used as starting points. They are all brief, but strictly factual and useful. Of course we are not allowed to paste text from EB directly but we are free to use the info retelling it in our own words. Besides, WP articles are bound to be more detailed than EB's. Full version of EB requires subscription but I have one and I would be happy to help you if you need access to specific articles. Besides, the articles could be extracted, indirectly, from Britannica's sites with a small amount of web-mining skills (without cracking passwords of course, just using google).
As for Chernihiv, please note that renaming the article to a Russian name is not even in the picture and if anyone tries that, I would be the first one to oppose. In fact, I recently shut down the attempt to rename Kharkiv back to Kharkov by a different editor after the notorious decision (of questionable legality) of the Kharkiv Oblrada (or was it Miskrada?). Anyway, the usage inside the article is a separate issue. If you are interested, please take a look at this outline. If you would like to know how we arrived to it, I could give you more links, of course.
Do I take it from your edit that you come from Cherkasy Oblast? If so, please take a look at a pity state of the Kaniv article. This city with a huge legacy for our nation deserves a better article. If you have questions, feel free to ask. When someone contacts you to tell things about others, make sure you check that person's contribution (including my contributions of course) before deciding for yourself on how credible the person is.
And don't forget to announce new articles at the Ukraine portal's board. Cheers, -- Irpen 17:15, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks...
There are quite a few sources on all oblasts on the internet, "bulo b bazhannya". Of course, they need to be verified.
I would appreciate help on another point: how does one create those clickable menues of regions etc at the bottom of a page? E.g., if you are in the Kyiv Oblast page, you can click at the stubs for any other oblast at the bottom of the page and that would take you to that next oblast. How does one create that structure? Thanks! Serhiy 20:39, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps, we should make a one single template for each oblast that would consists of:
This is a tedious work. I will try to do it for Kiev Oblast and I will see how it goes. I will leave playing with templates for Cherkasy region to you as you seem to be the most interested editor in this region. Please check out Kiev Oblast article later. -- Irpen 21:14, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Good idea on a single template, but I suggest just raions and cities - without villages, because even a smaller oblast has up to a 1,000 villages. On another note: I saw somewhere a mentioning that you use "shch" everywhere. While this is a relatively minor issue and I am not going to go to polls over it, for the reasons of sheer simplicity and practicality I suggest moving to "sch". Two justifications: a) it's official transliteration of Ukrainian spelling into English according to the Ukrainian rules; and b) it's just simpler to write and view, while it gives exactly the same sound.
Serhiy 21:23, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, and "sch" is part of the "National" standard according to the Romanization of Ukrainian link you kindly referred me to. So, why don't we just use it, given that it's simple, nice, and official both in Ukraine and here on WP? Maybe I just missed smth, but that looks to me a natural conclusion. Serhiy 21:39, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Serhiy, I agree with you re villages. Although each village may get an article at one time or another, there is no place for them all in Oblast templates. Check the Kiev Oblast pls. I based the template there on UK-wiki one.
As for Sch/Shch, this is a separate issue, and frankly I don't care much. Unfortunately MichaelZ ( user:Mzajac) hasn't been around for a while. I will email him since he was a main authority in tranlsiteration. As far as I remember, Khreschatyk is the only exeption to shch usage which we ended up with because of prevailance of Khreschatyk as per google test. -- Irpen
Hi, I noticed your question in one of your edit summaries. To answer it, "board" is short for "message board" or "bulletin board". Using the word "forum" is also acceptable, although I personally did not see it used as often in English, and when it is used, it is used in less formal environs. All this is why I replaced it with "board" in the first place, but I don't really care one way or the other. Cheers,— Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) • ( yo?); 12:40, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok, thanks! I don't care much about this either :) Serhiy 15:32, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Please keep the picture size down. I have a high speed connection and I assume that you do as well. But please think about dial up user. Pages with big pictures can take a long time to load. Thnaks. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 21:26, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
[[Image:something.jpg|thumb|Npx|right|thumbnail caption]]
Hi Serhiy. I think I owe you an explanation on that one. I take no position on which theory is right and which theory is "wrong". In fact, no one can know for sure although some may seem more convinsing than others. But, and this is a very general statement, the encyclopedias don't reflect "truths". They refleck "knowledge". As such, the mainsteam accepted version should be given as the main ones. In most cases, we can safely stop at that. In some cases, and the Name of Ukraine may be the one, the criticism of the mainstream version is not a fringe conspiracy theory but an academic disagreement taken by some respected scholars. In such cases, it is OK to cite alternative versions as well, but also neutrally, without implying that they are more correct. Briefly speaking, we present the versions as they are accepted by the present day scientific community and not as which I right and which are wrong. I hope you agree with me. In no way I deleted anything you wrote, I just reorganized it somewhat. З наступаючим святом! -- Irpen 21:35, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
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Thanks! I enjoyed our discussion a great deal and also find it rather useful. -- Irpen 04:48, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Can I co-sign? If so, here goes. -- Irpen - A small river in Ukraine that literally flows upwards 15:59, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
-- Kuban Cossack 00:49, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Serhiy, pls note that articles are not galleries. We can fit only as many images as the article's length allows us. For the street of the Orange revolution time, one would suffice. I chose that one because it shows the street (tent city was on the street while the protests were on Maidan). Are you sure we need more? -- Irpen 22:05, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Gigantic POV additions in article History of Christianity in Ukraine by User:Kuban kazak. Please help to clean up. -- Yakudza 14:46, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Serhiy, hello! First of all I just have to tell you that I found some weird termins that were used on the site about the Mykolaiv oblast, such as selsovet. But the main reason for my respond is your explanation of the term 'capital'. Where did you find that information? You wrote: "'Capital' implies federal country where regions have elements of sovereignty (like states in the US, provinces in Argentina etc). Not the case in Ukraine; only "administrative center" is appropriate." The webster's dictionary says (I quote): "a : a city serving as a seat of government b : a city preeminent in some special activity <the fashion ~>". It means that any administrative centers may be the capitals without any implications for any country's administrative status. The city of Mykolaiv has its own regional government, and therefore it is the capital of its region. with the best regards Aleksandr Grigoryev 21:03, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
I am trying to change the name of the page Kiev to Kyiv. Looking through the archives, I saw that you had contributed to a similar discussion in the past.
The current discussion is happening at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kiev/naming
Please let us know what you think.
Thanks,
Horlo 03:08, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I have nominated The Number 1 Homestead on the Lenina Street, Vynohrad, an article you created, for deletion. I do not feel that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Number 1 Homestead on the Lenina Street, Vynohrad. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time. Travellingcari ( talk) 19:01, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi - long time no see
Just a little question about the List_of_raions_in_Ukraine_by_subdivision - you worked on the article when it was pretty new - can you tell me if those redlinks were articles that have been deleted or if they were never actually created ?
thanks... Chaosdruid ( talk) 01:13, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
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Template:Raions in the Cherkasy Oblast has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Ten Pound Hammer • ( What did I screw up now?) 12:58, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
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