Hi, You've just added a citation needed tag for "Employing semi-closed circuit nitrogen-oxygen rebreathers, between 1957 and 1960 John Buxton and Oliver Wells (grandson of science fiction writer H. G. Wells) went on to reach the elbow of the sump upstream from Chamber 9 at a depth of 22 m (72 ft)." is this or this detailed enough to cover the info?— Rod talk 19:33, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
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Hi again, I'm just looking once again at getting Wookey Hole Caves ready for GA nomination & wondered if you had any sources which could be used as citations to support the two sentences "Employing semi-closed circuit nitrogen-oxygen rebreathers, between 1957 and 1960 John Buxton and Oliver Wells (grandson of science fiction writer H. G. Wells) went on to reach the elbow of the sump upstream from Chamber 9 at a depth of 22 m (72 ft).[38][citation needed] This was at a point known as "The Slot", the way on being too deep for the gas mixture they were breathing."? If not I'm minded to remove them as uncited as any GA reviewer would challenge them.— Rod talk 20:27, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
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Hi Langcliffe, I appreciate the ref you added to the SRT article. While my comment did not properly indicate my specific concerns; I have tried to clarify on the talk page. If you have a moment, please visit the talk page and discuss it with me. I would appreciate it. Thanks. WTucker ( talk) 02:14, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
Hi, WTucker. I have no problem with your major concerns - only to the fact that you selected one statement to complain about lack of an inline citations when no other statement in the whole article has one. It is probably true that Figure-of-Eights have not had any real relevance to SRT since the mid-1970s. Langcliffe ( talk) 06:42, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
The reviewer has now put up comments at Talk:Wookey Hole Caves/GA2. I've had a go at some of them eg clarifying "solutional cave" and standardising format and capitalisation of the chambers but wanted to check with you that I haven't mucked up too much. I'll have a go at expanding the lead to fully summarise the lead but wondered if you would look (again) at "The Hydrology and geology section is particularly difficult due to an abundance of technical language" and see whether we can explain more fully the terms used?— Rod talk 14:34, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Oh, but surely we aren't going to rely on a mere Wikipedia article (and a fairly shabby one at that) to tell us what is or isn't relevant, right? To start with, see here and here. The episode is also brought up in the scholarly literature on Powys, such as the two articles I cited. Doubtless the book has one of the more thorough fictional portrayals of the caves (from the very first chapter: "He visualised his factory at Wookey Hole. He visualised those stalactites and stalagmites in the famous caves there and saw them lit with perpetual electricity. He remembered how he had stood alone there once by the edge of that subterranean river flowing under the Witch's Rock and how he had felt a sensation of power down there beyond anything he had ever known… 'Four thousand would take electricity beyond the actual known limits of every one of those caves. I'll do the plant for ten thousand and spend five on the caves. With five thousand I could electrify the bowels of the Mendips.'"), and given that secondary sources speak of this, at least in the context of the lawsuit, I would say it merits a mention of a couple of lines. It also has to be among the first fictional mentions of the caves as tourist site, given how soon Powys wrote of them after they were opened to the public. - Biruitorul Talk 13:13, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
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Hi, sorry to pop up out of the blue but I just wanted to let you know that I made an article request for Skirwith here. I hope it might tickle your fancy or that of someone in your project. I was very fond of the show cave but in no way competent to write the article. Cheers DBaK ( talk) 11:36, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
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When I do spelling corrections in quotes I always have doubts. There are several rules in wikipedia about the subject but there isn't a very clear "right or wrong" way. If you think my corrections are not right then you can revert them but put a {{ sic}} or [sic] in the text so that others don't do the same.
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Hi, Langcliffe. Thanks for working on Lascaux. I noticed your reversion. I have opened a discussion on the article Talk page. FeatherPluma ( talk) 00:20, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
The best source for the casualties of those unfortunate divers is Stephan Harrigan, Down in the Depths. Texas Monthly - February 1980. It is an extensively detailed account which cites Don Dibble, who recovered 5 of the bodies. The sixth was found in 2000. I'm sorry that this correction has been undone on grounds that the former reference was more recent (1984). This reference, however, is not as accurate and doesn't cite Don Dibble. It is accurate that there was a woman, but fails to count accurately the total deaths. According to Don Dibble, 2 people died in 1965. 2 more people in different occasion between 1965 and 1979 (dates not given), including one woman, and 2 more in 1979. The former reference was mine, too. The IP is different simply because it's dynamic. I noticed that Langcliffe inaugurated the information on the casualties and also that he/she undid my edit. I'd invite Langcliffe to check each reference and make a decision after that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.28.195.35 ( talk) 02:02, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
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Hi Langcliffe
I would have to disagree with your wording change to "sometimes" on the speleothem page. My original word "usually" is definitely more appropriate. Even in railway tunnels they spray a thin layer of concrete, cement or lime to stabilise the rock strata, so that small pieces do not fall away from the bed rock.
If the bedrock is a calcarious rock (e.g. limestone or dolomite etc) and not sprayed with concrete, the calthemites chemistry would mean that the secondary deposits are growing verbs slowly - see growth rates in soda straw. Compare the usual speleothem chemistry with calthemite chemistry - although if they occur in a railway tunnel they will be classed as calthemites.
Most people notice calthemites on man made concrete buildings or structures. When ever calthemites are seen on concrete structures it is an indication that the concrete, "is being" or "has been" leached of some Calcium Hydroxide or other form of calcium irons as per the Calthemite page.
I think my wording of usually is very appropriate and does not exclude the less common occurrence in a railway tunnel which may not have been sprayed with a thin layer of concrete.
Regards Newcaves Newcaves ( talk) 22:50, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
Hi Langcliffe
You have raised a very appropriate point - waste lime above the tunnel, means that the leachate is hyperalkaline and fits in very well with the section on the calthemite page, noted as "An unusual occurrence of hyperalkaline leachate in caves"
You are actually correct in that it is not strictly concrete that is degrading, however it does fit in with calthemites in that it is due to concrete, lime or mortar being leached of calcium hydroxide. So your circumstance, it seems that it would be appropriate that I add a few extra words on the speleothem page to include, "lime" or "mortar" even though the lime above the railway tunnel is actually waste and not in a structure. The fact that the secondary deposit is in a manmade tunnel still means that it is classed as a calthemite.
Thanks so much for your interest and diligence on this matter. Happy to talk about this subject any time as it is a huge passion of mine. Newcaves ( talk) 23:48, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
Just double checked Concrete degradation under the heading " decalcification" is the sentence, "The sight of calthemite is a visual sign that calcium is being leached from the concrete structure and the concrete is gradually degrading.[10][14]" which includes references. Hope this helps.
Regards Newcaves Newcaves ( talk) 04:34, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
Hi Langcliffe, I have hopefully found a compromise in the middle of our two opinions. I have changed the word, "usually" to "often". Hope this is a satisfactory compromise.
I have been thinking a lot about your comments, and conclude that there are probably far more examples around the world, of calthemites under concrete buildings and structures than in mines or tunnels. That aside, I see your point and hope we have reached a compromise with the wording.
Regards Newcaves Newcaves ( talk) 08:48, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
Newcaves "Often" is good. -- Langcliffe ( talk) 14:37, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
Newcaves: Your recent change: "Calthemites which occur on concrete structures, are created by completely different chemistry to speleothems. Refer to Calthemite page for chemistry details." Surely this is misleading? I thought that we were agreed that concrete was not a prerequisite? Just as a matter of interest, how would you classify the formations in such a place as Conistone Copper Mines, or a lot of the limestone mines? The chemistry is probably similar to that of regular speleotherms. -- Langcliffe ( talk) 12:50, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
Hi Lancliffe. I didn't intend to go against your thoughts on this subject. Just trying to direct people toward the different chemistry which the majority of calthemits are created by as a result of - being hyperalkaline leachate and the chemistry which goes with that (associated with cement, lime or mortar). Yes, I agree that we can always find exceptions to the norm. I wasn't saying in this new sentence that concrete derived secondary deposits is the only type of calthemite - just that the chemistry is different to speleothems. I am struggling to come up with a sentence which is simple but conveys the message. I thought that this inclusion would not be controversial, nor contravene what you had been talking about earlier. You have raised a point that we could cover such situations of calthemites in tunnels through limestone bedrock where the calthemites are derived from limestone. in this case the chemistry would indeed be the same as speleothems (provided there was no lime waste or cement involved). This would mean another small section added to the calthemite page. Any other suggestions on how to move forward on this?
I have already been involved in considerable discussion regarding whether Calthemites should be a new category, OR just a subcategory of "speleothems" and "Concrete" or "concrete degradation". The latter obviously rules out the mines which you mention. I am personally in favour of it being a new category and having " stalactites", "soda straw", "flowstone", "calcite rafts", "stalagmites" and "concrete degradation" etc as subcategories. Hence in most cases calthemites would have a parallel set of subcategories as Speleothems - except for "concrete degradation". Clearly "concrete" is the wrong location, "speleothems" is the wrong location, as is "concrete degradation". Hence after all this too and fro with other editors, calthemites are now subcategories of "Speleothems" and "Concrete". It is probably a less than satisfactory compromise, but I am wearing down with this debate. So I am not perusing the categories debate any further. Regards Newcaves Newcaves ( talk) 13:27, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
-- Langcliffe ( talk) 14:25, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
Hi Langcliffe . Greatly appreciate your interest in this subject. I must clarify a particular point which you make "so it's a term defined by the source of the deposit rather than the location of the deposit". From the calthemite page "Calthemite is a secondary deposit, derived from concrete, lime, mortar or other calcareous material outside the cave environment". Other Calcarious material includes limestone, dolomite etc which naturally occur in nature and the calthemites occurring in manmade tunnels, mines etc as per the definition in the publication - reference [1]. This also includes "Calthemites may also contain minerals such as gypsum" as mentioned on the calthemite page. The definition of calthemites does have the grey area in that it does not include other secondary mineral deposits not containing calcium, such as can form in coal mines, copper mines etc. an example is Melanterite stalactites (FeSO4.7H2O) - no idea what overall category these fall into, other than stalagmites, stalagmites etc.. So by the calthemite definition if there is no calcium in the secondary deposit, it is not a calthemite.
So getting back to the subject - tunnels in limestone (without any lime mortar or concrete involved) are still considered calthemites if the secondary deposit contains some calcium. I will closely look at what is on the Wiki pages later today to see if anything is contradictory or misleading as per your concerns. Hope I have covered your concerns adequately and if I find any issue on the wiki pages from what you have raised, I will amend immediately. It is a tricky subject, however if I have achieved nothing else than raise readers awareness of the different chemistry and why the majority of concrete derived stalactites grow far more quickly than speleothems, then I have achieved something. Just re-read your comments - "Calthemites can exist in caves, and speleothems often exist in mines". This can't occur according to the definition of each. NO calthemites can't occur in caves and NO speleothems can't occur in mines, according to the definitions of both Speleothems and Calthemites. Sorry to be so blunt on this, but when you look at the definition of both these terms and the latin/roman/greek derivation of the words and the various original publications where the terms were first used and defined, it is very definite. What is true is that stalactites, stalagmites, flowstone, coralloids etc which describes the shape of the secondary deposit, can occur in both speleothems and calthemites and the other unknown classification of a secondary deposit such as Melanterite stalactites in coal mines. Wow we are getting in deep discussion here.
Best regards Newcaves ( talk) 23:38, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
Hi Langcliffe. Great photos in the mine as per your link. Yep, definitely look like aragonite secondary deposits. Bare in mind that "calcium carbonate" can be deposited in the form of calcite, aragonite or vaterite - they are all the same chemical composition - it is just the crystal structure shape which is different. Yes, I agree that when Moore (1952) first used and defined the word "Speleothems" that the chemistry related to concrete was not known at the time. Also the renowned book "Cave Minerals Of The World" by Hill and Forti (edition 1 & 2) is the most cited speleological publication in the world, states that "secondary deposits" in mines and tunnels are not classed as speleothems, despite mimicking them. "Cave Minerals of the World" is considered by the majority of speleologists as the absolute bible when it comes to minerals and secondary deposits in caves. It drew on the knowledge of thousands of renowned experts from around the world and the revised edition 1997 was published well after the hyperalkaline chemistry of concrete secondary deposits was known. The word "caves" is also very clearly defined in this book and does not include caves and mines. Cave is defined as a natural cavity large enough for a human to enter-------- etc etc. Then if you look at the Calthemite page on Wikipedia, scan down to equations [5 through to 9] which is the same chemistry as would be occurring to deposit the (calcium carbonate) aragonite's in the mine which you have linked to. (great photos of mine tunnel and secondary deposits - thanks for the link.) As yet I have not been able to find any pier reviewed publication of note, which has redefined the meaning of speleothems to include secondary deposits in manmade mines and tunnels. As you probably gather the chemistry of secondary deposits inside and out of caves has been a passion of mine for about 45 years, as is speleology which I am heavily involved in for a longer period. If your of a similar persuasion, I recon we could have some great discussions.
You may also note (equations 5 to 9) on the calthemite page, that the same chemistry which occurs in limestone caves can actually leach calcium carbonate from very very old concrete (more likely in thin concrete) and deposit calthemites. The calcium hydroxide has the be leached out of the leachate path before this chemical reaction can occur.
Anyway, I think I see what you are getting at regarding chemistry/location and can add a sentence or two in the calthemite page to cover the mine tunnels in limestone, dolomite or other calcareous rock which have secondary deposits with the same chemistry as calcium carbonate speleothems in caves. What do you think???? With regards the speleothem page, I didn't think it was muddied, but will certainly have a closer look to see if it can be further clarified. Hope I can get a bit of time tomorrow. Thanks so much for all your interest in this subject. Regards, Newcaves Newcaves ( talk) 11:31, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Some minor changes to the speleothem definition have been added to the speleothem page. Hope this de-muddies the water a little. Will address some more of your concerns on the calthemite page in the next day or so. Appreciate all your comments and I am sure that the pages and descriptions will be the better for our discussions. And will do something about specifically mentioning mines in limestone and dolomite etc as well as those other mineral stalactites in mines which would not be covered by calthemites due to the definition. Newcaves ( talk) 13:40, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
I noticed you reverted my edits to include the word 'tsingy' on the karst page. This is fine, and I understand the decision. But I ask that you please find a more appropriate place to include 'tsingy' on the karst page, as the search term tsingy redirects to the page, but the word is not mentioned there. Thanks Mark D. Scherz 08:33, 9 February 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mark.scherz ( talk • contribs)
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Your edit said "Modify latest contribution to match the source, tidy up, and re-arrange"
Instead, you just removed the entire latest contribution. Why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Victorian Sugar Nips ( talk • contribs) 15:04, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
Victorian Sugar Nips - Thank you for your message. I seem to have upset you, for which I am sorry. I have taken a look at my edit, and being a bear of little brain I cannot identify the section I removed. Would you mind very much if you could be more explicit? Thanks. Langcliffe ( talk) 15:18, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
You,re right, my mistake! I was looking at the wrong version. Thanks. Victorian Sugar Nips ( talk) 15:35, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
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Perhaps we need an inclusion criteria, such as the waterfall reaches a certain size. It would seem large underfalls should be included on a list. Valoem talk contrib 19:22, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
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Hello Langcliffe. I see that you've done a lot of work on caving articles, including List of UK caving fatalities. Back in 2014, you did a bunch of clean-up including edits like this one, removing Alexander Rea and this one removing multiple entries to drop from the list any deaths that don't appear to have happened during recreational caving. I certainly agree that mining accidents are not relevant to the issue of cave exploration deaths, but I wonder whether there's any value in excluding the deaths of poorly prepared people who chose to venture into caves. I understand that from an experienced caver's perspective these deaths are in a very different category than, say, the Mossdale Caverns tragedy. But it seems somewhat arbitrary to only include people who died despite a fairly high level of preparation and exclude those of people who died because of a fairly low level of preparation.
Could we find some way to include these "misadventure" type deaths? Maybe we can indicate "non-cavers" in the table. Maybe we have a second list in a separate section. I'd appreciate your thoughts. Rupert Clayton ( talk) 01:27, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
I wrote the Cleeves Cove article and it has links with the Culzean Caves video because they are both recorded as Elfhames as recorded in Robert Burns' 'Halloween' poem as stated on the video towards the end. Both sites were also used as hiding places by Covenanters. First time I have been suspected of vanity - I hold with Oscar Wilde on that emotion. Rosser Gruffydd 10:35, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
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Hi. The Wikipedia:The Great Britain/Ireland Destubathon is planned for March 2020, a contest/editathon to eliminate as many stubs as possible from all 134 counties. Amazon vouchers/book prizes are planned for most articles destubbed from England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland and Northern Ireland and whoever destubs articles from the most counties out of the 134. Sign up on page if interested in participating, hope this will prove to be good fun and productive, we have over 44,000 stubs!♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:23, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
Hello, you reverted a modification which was accurate, as can be seen by simply opening the reference in question. What to do now to have the appropriate first name without risking a further revert? PRZ ( talk) 13:10, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
PRZ: Mea Culpa - I was trying to revert the edit previous to yours which was vandalism, and failed. That reversion was subsequently done by somebody else correctly. Please carry on with your modification, and apologies for the inconvenience. Langcliffe ( talk) 14:27, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
Thank you, I failed to notice that I hadn't actually fully reverted the vandalism on that page. A S U K I T E 20:06, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
I just wanted to ask that why you're removing my link KUTTANI ( talk) 19:28, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
I understood but tell me is there any other way to link my website.plz tell KUTTANI ( talk) 12:10, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
Apologies – I didn't doubt the validity of your change, but when I saw that you'd changed the ranking in the article without changing the reference I assumed we'd need a new citation for the current information. Sorry – should have checked the existing ref. Dave.Dunford ( talk) 20:42, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Haitón del Guarataro, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Cavernicola.
( Opt-out instructions.) -- DPL bot ( talk) 06:15, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
(Re.: “Reverted good faith edits by JamesHaigh (talk): It does't make sense to link to a "see also" article which doesn't exist”)
An update is needed but neither original research nor unreferenced material is acceptable.
This is interesting
https://www.ilkleygazette.co.uk/news/19587081.video-shock-youtuber-measures-depth-strid-bolton-abbey
but it's only the local rag. Geofpick ( talk)
Hello I would like your opinion on [2] to find out if I should avoid my participation on en.wikipedia. Friendships -- Biboc ( talk) 16:27, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
In the case of the list of the longest caves, it really is not very important where the limit is. I think that the way in which Leithmotiv has expressed his opinion has been a little strong, but he is a dedicated editor and is intentions are the best. I tend to walk away when another editor feels that strongly about something. In this case, I do agree with him that your first limit of 100 km is probably the best. It is a nice round number, and the list will stay a reasonable length. We don't have a list of the longest caves in the UK, but I suspect that because our caves are much shorter than the US and French ones, our limit would be 20 km. In terms of depth, it would probably be 200 metres, whereas the French one would probably be 1000 metres!
All the very best, and let us all stay wiki-friends for the good of caving on en-wikipedia. - Langcliffe ( talk) 18:12, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
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Hello I translated part of my article on the network of the clot d'Aspres into English. Can you see if the translation is not too bad? Friendships Gilbert. Biboc ( talk) 16:12, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
-- Biboc ( talk) 19:01, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
-- Biboc ( talk) 14:17, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
-- Biboc ( talk) 11:39, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
Biboc ( talk) 14:57, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
Sorry, Langcliffe! I had not read that, and I appreciate your bringing it to my attention. Best, Kafka Liz A girl is no one 17:45, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
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