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The language is called American English. Let's just move these templates to their proper names. Please discuss at
template talk:British-English#Hyphen. —
MichaelZ. 2008-12-14 00:14 z
Flag
March 2011
Why the flag? --
John (
talk) 01:24, 14 March 2011 (UTC)reply
It shows the region of the variety of English in question. Seems reasonable most of the time, on non-country specific articles, on US specific articles. It only causes problems on articles specific to a non-US country. Perhaps a parameter should be added "US=no" to remove the flag in cases where it is about a country that is not the US.
184.144.160.156 (
talk) 01:55, 14 March 2011 (UTC)reply
What additional info is conveyed by the flag over the text string
American English? --
John (
talk) 02:00, 14 March 2011 (UTC)reply
Confusion over the meaning of "American" without needing to click on the link.
American (disambiguation) lists many. It also clears up that this is US English and not US+Canadian English.
184.144.160.156 (
talk) 05:03, 14 March 2011 (UTC)reply
Do you have evidence that a significant number of people who potentially will edit the article will be confused by the text string with link and will need the flag to figure out what American English means? --
John (
talk) 16:33, 14 March 2011 (UTC)reply
Flags are also used on the other templates of this type, such as {{British English}}. Why single out this one? -
BilCat (
talk) 16:47, 14 March 2011 (UTC)reply
Sorry I wasn't more clear, but I meant that the IP was addressing US-specific reasons for having the flag, but those reasons don't apply to the other templates. Given the fact they all use flags, it's obvious the flags are just for decoration, no matter how one might justify an individual use. -
BilCat (
talk) 14:02, 15 March 2011 (UTC)reply
I do not believe it is desirable to flag-wave about varieties of English. The varieties do not even map well onto the anglophone nation states. It is contrary to our successful engvar guideline, too.
Tony(talk) 07:40, 15 March 2011 (UTC)reply
Could replace it with a map of the US or silhouette of the US instead...
184.144.160.156 (
talk) 08:05, 15 March 2011 (UTC)reply
It's no different. If the article on, say, Japan, is written in AmEng (I haven't checked; it probably is), it seems singularly inappropriate to use the template with a US anything on it, except to state "American English". Same for the article on ... the Sun, or the Atlantic Ocean. A low-key statement about the variety of English is what is required. The same applies to all of the engvar templates—BrEng, IrEng, AusEng, etc. (I'd say the article on Papua New Guinea is probably in AusEng. Why the Australian flag on the language template?).
Tony(talk) 13:47, 15 March 2011 (UTC)reply
MOS:ICON only applies to the article space, doesn't it? These boxes are being added to talk pages, just like wikiproject boxes, which also commonly have images in them.
117Avenue (
talk) 03:06, 16 March 2011 (UTC)reply
I don't see how a talk page notice would be usefully redirected to an article page template, or how it illustrates that an article is written in American English instead of Australian English.
184.144.160.156 (
talk) 04:38, 16 March 2011 (UTC)reply
In which case I would be inclined to remove any flag-waving engvar template on a talk page, unless directly connected with the country whose flag is featured.
Tony(talk) 06:50, 16 March 2011 (UTC)reply
that would be a correct move (if all done in good faith)- as per
MOS:TIES "strong ties" and
MOS:RETAIN "an article that is not a stub shows no signs of which variety it is written in".
Moxy (
talk) 07:06, 16 March 2011 (UTC)reply
Agree with Tony about flags on articles not related to the nation it represents. I can't imagine wanting to slap a "Scottish English" template on an article that was not about, or had a very strong connection with Ecosse. MOS:RETAIN doubtless has its uses, but in practice the idea that anyone could create an article about a topic related to (say) France using numerous Scottish/Australian/Trinidadian words and phrases, slap a template on the talk page and expect to be taken seriously, is absurd.
BenMacDui 08:04, 16 March 2011 (UTC)reply
Yes, I agree a flag should not used in such templates on articles unrelated to that country. I also don't see any great need for a flag on articles strongly related to that country either. Let's just remove the flags from the notices. --
Avenue (
talk) 09:12, 16 March 2011 (UTC)reply
Since there is a convention for icons on talk page templates (and given that many share the same styling (colour etc.) how about replacing the flags with images bearing the ISO langage codes, e.g. en:us, en:nz etc?
dramatic (
talk) 23:06, 16 March 2011 (UTC)reply
Support - best idea i have heard yet - a solution nice.
Moxy (
talk) 00:42, 17 March 2011 (UTC)reply
Good. It's an important template and should be usable in a flexible way. Could I put in a plea that it be reasonably small: looks huge at the moment.
Tony(talk) 01:03, 17 March 2011 (UTC)reply
Why do YOU use your flag in your similar box? Do you have some special privilege that allows you only to use it, but we cannot use ours?
NorthernThunder (
talk) 14:09, 18 March 2011 (UTC)reply
Before "ANY" changes take place i believe all the projects that have templates they may be affected should be involved in this talk (no way this little talk will fly over with some of the projects) - I see that the IP did posts this at some related projects - but were all notified
Category:Varieties of English templates - any Ozzies or south African etc... members here ??
Moxy (
talk) 01:25, 17 March 2011 (UTC)reply
No, I did not inform all of them, only the larger ones with seemingly more active populations. I informed Canada, Scotland, UK, India, Australia and US, IIRC.
184.144.166.85 (
talk) 05:50, 20 March 2011 (UTC)reply
The flag should be removed, since "American English" spelling is used outside the US as well. Flags should be removed from the other templates too. I could support Dramatic's idea.
~Asarlaí 10:44, 8 May 2011 (UTC)reply
See my comments at
Template talk:British English. This whole issue being debated above does seem to stem from and Irish minority dislike of the
Union Flag. I have been watching the overall flag debate recently and there are currently a number of editors pushing for flag removal all over the place and it does appaer to be linked to an Irish flags POV.
WizOfOz (
talk) 13:00, 8 May 2011 (UTC)reply
Flags should be deleted from all language templates. Languages know no country borders.
GoodDay (
talk) 16:33, 9 May 2011 (UTC)reply
Agree with GoodDay. "American English" is not confined within the country implied by the flag. Flags should be removed from these language templates.
Daicaregos (
talk) 17:23, 9 May 2011 (UTC)reply
I shall make a suggestion here which I have already made on the British English talk page. It is unconventional but highly practical, visually-appealing and hopefully would serve to avoid geo-political controversies. Why not replace the Stars and Sripes with an image of Mark Twain, and likewise replace the Union Jack with William Shakespeare?--
Jeanne Boleyn (
talk) 17:28, 9 May 2011 (UTC)reply
I support removing the flag from all the templates, as they are mostly dfecoration, but that decision can't be made here. Perhaps an RFC is in order. As to the images, Will is English - I doubt the Anti-British zealots will ever accept that! -
BilCat (
talk) 17:35, 9 May 2011 (UTC)reply
He personifies English literature which is apolitical. A flag is just the opposite.--
Jeanne Boleyn (
talk) 17:38, 9 May 2011 (UTC)reply
I have no objection to British/Shakespeare, but I was just about to ask who you thought should decorate Scottish English. I hope any passing anti-Scottish zealots don't mind. :)
BenMacDui 17:46, 9 May 2011 (UTC)reply
Anything British or English is anathema to these type of zealots. -
BilCat (
talk) 18:22, 9 May 2011 (UTC)reply
Replacing the flags with pictures of people will only lead to more arguing. If we must replace the flags with somthing, I think
Sswonk's proposal is best.
~Asarlaí 18:51, 9 May 2011 (UTC)reply
Assuming you mean
File:Globe of letters.svg that's fine by me too. I do like the idea of Will and Rabbie, although a debating point is that neither spoke a form of modern English.
BenMacDui 18:12, 11 May 2011 (UTC)reply
No serious objections to the flag's removal have been made. A bold move seems in order.
Daicaregos (
talk) 07:10, 12 May 2011 (UTC)reply
I seriously object to the flag being removed. The US flag indicates this version of the language originates in the United States as opposed to anywhere else in the Americas. While the original poster in this thread appears to have his own reasons for removing the flag (he maybe just doesn't like flags), the debate has been hijacked by others who quite possibly have nationalistic views on the matter. It's possible that much of the anti-flag movement can be traced back to editors who wish to remove British flags and because they can't remove only the Union Jack their fallback position is to try and get rid of all flags.
LevenBoy (
talk) 11:40, 12 May 2011 (UTC)reply
I see no reason to make the nationalists happy --
Guerillero |
My Talk 16:02, 12 May 2011 (UTC)reply
I suggested that an image incorporating the
Rosetta stone might be acceptable as a common alternative to flag icons at these templates - see
Template talk:Hiberno-English.
, Other 'non-state' images have also been suggested there. Thoughts?
RashersTierney (
talk) 15:14, 13 May 2011 (UTC)reply
Well no, if you don't mind me saying so. Who knows about that stone? So instead of addressing the subject of an article editors would think "what the hell's that" and then have to click on the image to find out. Quite ridiculous. The campaign against flags goes on, and I'm convinced it's really all about getting rid of British and some Irish flags.
LevenBoy (
talk) 15:49, 13 May 2011 (UTC)reply
I think, if we must replace the flags, somthing simple like the
File:Globe of letters.svg is the best choice. LevenBoy, you should address the arguments rather than just sitting back and claiming this is a conspiracy against certain flags. That's
assuming bad faith.
~Asarlaí 15:57, 13 May 2011 (UTC)reply
You mean AGF is more important than stating facts? Have a look around at the editors who are right now causing edit wars all over the place by their persistent removal of flags. What are we to make of it?
LevenBoy (
talk) 16:14, 13 May 2011 (UTC)reply
Don't be coy. Who exactly are these edit warriors?
RashersTierney (
talk) 16:20, 13 May 2011 (UTC)reply
Strongly oppose the removal of the American flag. Why can American English not be represented by the American flag? This political correctness is silly.
BritishWatcher (
talk) 12:58, 16 May 2011 (UTC)reply
Use on talk pages
Please notice that I just now added the template to this talk page. Why? Because even though the template describes itself as being an article-related template we see it on many, many talk pages. Using it so only clutters talk page headings. Can we change the documentation of the template so that it is limited to article pages only? (This request applies to UK, Indian, Australian English templates too.) –
S. Rich (
talk) 05:27, 28 February 2016 (UTC)reply
It's a talk page notice, and it not designed for use in articles themselves. Perhaps the notice can be reworded to make that clear. -
BilCat (
talk) 06:09, 28 February 2016 (UTC)reply
Well, I think I have confused myself over a minor issue. If it said "The text in this article uses American English... " I may have understood better. In the words of the great
Emily Litella (who was once my mentor) – "Never mind". –
S. Rich (
talk) 16:40, 28 February 2016 (UTC)reply
Change docs to discourage pointless use of this template
We should change this text: "This template may be included on talk pages or editnotices to alert other editors that the associated article is written in American English. Usually, the article either has evolved using predominantly this variety or has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation that uses this variety."
Replace with: "This template may be included on talk pages or editnotices to alert other editors that the associated article is written in American English. It is not necessary when the English variety is obvious. It is meant for cases when there is no obvious, strong reason to use US English, and the choice of US English is circumstantial, per
MOS:RETAIN "Retaining the existing variety", or the reasons for choosing US English were ambiguous, or were the result of a dispute, perhaps under the criteria "Opportunities for commonality" or "Consistency within articles" criteria of the Manual of Style's
National varieties of English." (A less wordy way of saying the same thing is welcome.)
Generally agreed. We did an informal survey of usage, and found that some particular borderline obsessive editors have been relentlessly tagging thousands upon thousands of pages with these and related templates for no legitimate reason, just a "claim-staking"
WP:OWN activity, and it needs to stop. —
SMcCandlish☏¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 04:23, 1 October 2017 (UTC)reply
In my experience, many of the editors making these kinds of additions are simply newer editors looking for something useful to do. They've seen these tags on other articles, and so think they are helping out by adding them where they appear to be needed. Calling such activity "claim-staking", without any qualifications, seems a little "bite-y" to me. -
BilCat (
talk) 05:27, 1 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Some articles that don't have dialects have these templates arbitrarily added to them without discussion, such as the Democracy and International Space Station articles. It's like a way of quietly forcing an article into a person's preferred dialect without any consensus. To complicate things further, there are scripts to change to British English but not to change back to American English, meaning it can often be hard to reverse the changes if there are any intermediate edits. If an article didn't have a dialect originally (i.e. had a mixture of spellings), then there is no way to convert back, even if there were a script for American English.
Master of Time(talk) 01:01, 4 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Doc
Where is this documentation being pulled from, and why is it not editable here? That needs fixing, since it's a maintenance impediment. The "See also" sections at these things need a pointer to the "Use X English" templates, like the "See also" section at
Template:English variant notice/doc, as the first item in the section, since more often than not, those are the templates people are actually looking for. —
SMcCandlish☏¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 04:21, 1 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Of the four words used by this template as examples of American English - labor, traveled, realize and defense - realize doesn't really help to differentiate American English from British English, where both spellings (-ize and -ise) are acceptable. It's the same with defense to lesser degree; both spellings (-se and -ce) are used in both American and British English. I suggest changing the examples to labor, traveled, color and aluminum, where the differences are more clearly established. nagualdesign 00:01, 3 December 2017 (UTC)reply
Having received no response, I
boldly edited the template myself. I also made a similar edit to
Template:British English. I hope that's okay. nagualdesign 21:30, 6 December 2017 (UTC)reply
Punctuation
I've just been apprised that even when using American English, Wikipedia requires British punctuation.
I wish this were changed, so that we consistently put commas and periods inside quotation marks, but if that doesn't happen, I think the detail should be added to the template. Otherwise, what's a poor American to do? How would we know we're supposed to break our own rules?
YoPienso (
talk) 00:09, 1 July 2018 (UTC)reply
Template-protected edit request on 11 September 2020
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
@
MSGJ: Three examples don't show the -ise vs -ize, -ence vs -ense distinctions between US and UK. --
Soumya-8974talkcontribssubpages 15:21, 9 October 2020 (UTC)reply
I wish I could add a statement to this template; this statement is that the AE rule does NOT apply to "always put commas and periods inside quotation marks". Likewise the BE template should say that the BE rule does NOT apply to "use single quotation marks in general and double quotation marks for quotations within quotations". Any thoughts here??
Georgia guy (
talk) 01:08, 15 September 2021 (UTC)reply