This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
Although not used for writing Farsi by Iranians themselves, some westerners inserted " vowel-points" showing short vowels into extracts of Farsi works in order to write primers for western learners of Farsi.
A primer of Persian: containing selections for reading and composition with the elements of syntax By George Speirs Alexander Ranking
more information on the diacritics
http://earth-info.nga.mil/gns/html/Romanization/Romanization_Persian.pdf
http://www.eki.ee/wgrs/rom1_fa.htm
http://www.eki.ee/wgrs/v2_2/rom1_fa.htm
http://www.transparent.com/learn-farsi/overview.html#.UWtoe8u9KSM
http://books.google.com/books?id=zLlFAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA7#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=NEMOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA4#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=DD5bAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=M0MOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=bFcOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA7#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=qP9GAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=knA9NptP7xsC&pg=PP13#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=9flPAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA11#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=kP9GAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA10#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=a7dIAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA294#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=g5ZHAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA6#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=O3lHAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA8#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=uL1TAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA9#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=9ONGAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA3#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=-L9UAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA14#v=onepage&q&f=false
Rajmaan ( talk) 03:01, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
"However two of them are different. " Two of what? Is the sentence trying to say, "the two are [a little] different?" 211.225.33.104 ( talk) 07:38, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
In Perso-Arabic, as in Arabic, words are written from right to left while numbers are written from left to right.
The Western convention is to write numbers left to right, most-significant digit to least significant digit. In Persian script, are numbers actually written left-to-write (as performed with an actual pen) or are the numbers written right to left LSD to MDS, which would appear to a Western eye as matching our left to right convention? If Persian writers actually change pen direction, do they wind up with the infamous
plan ahea
d problem? —
MaxEnt 03:06, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
Making a blanket change from "Perso-Arabic" to "Arabic" does not make sense. This article is about the Persian alphabet, not the Arabic script nor Arabic alphabet which already have separate articles.
I take the use of "Perso-Arabic script" in this article to mean that the term is restrictive (referring to the Persian variant of Arabic script) rather than inclusive (referring to Persian and Arabic together). Is that correct?
The 25 March edit by 194.36.164.228 led to some nonsensical statements, like "there are many Arabic-derived alphabets which were not influenced by the Arabic script".
If an editor thinks that there are statements here that apply to all Arabic scripts, then he should move them to the Arabic script article, not just leave them here and change "Persian" to "Arabic".
If editors feel that the term "Perso-Arabic script" is confusing, overused, or incorrectly used, then perhaps we should carefully employ some alternate terms, such as "Persian variant of Arabic script", "Persian extension", or "Persian alphabet". (Strictly, it's an abjad rather than an alphabet, but there seems to be a fairly consistent use of Xxx alphabet, Xxx script, and Xxx language in article titles.)
Pelagic ( talk) 02:18, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
Some writers are saying that there are three dialects or dialect groups within the Lahnda group:
http://panjistani.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Panjistani_langauge, http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User:Ma120/sandbox&oldid=619888358
Do we gain anything by listing all these here, or by replacing a bluelink to Saraiki with a redlink to Panjistani?
The current Hindko article lists Panjistani as a synonym, but doesn't say much about the writing system other than it uses Shahmukhi. The Saraiki articles ( Saraiki language, Saraiki alphabet) mention that there are 5 extra characters (44 total) compared to the 39 in standard Urdu, so at least that is notable.
But then the Shahmukhi article has a table with 47 characters and an infobox with 38 letters.
Like most readers, I'm not an Indologist and can't read Arabic script, so I find all this very confusing.
It seems that any time we have a statement of the form "script X is used to write languages A, B, and C, amongst others" it invites edits from people who are pushing a nationalist agenda or simply want to say "my dialect is better than your dialect".
Is there some way that we can structure this article to (a) avoid disruptive edits, and (b) give a clean overview of the different extensions to (Perso-)Arabic script without requiring the reader to click/tap through to many different pages?
I'd like to make a table, but don't feel qualified. Perhaps even a separate article like "Comparison of alphabets using Arabic script" to save cluttering the main article with a large table? (And the table will grow as people add the character repertoires of their favourite languages/dialects.)
P.S. sorry for using external-link markup for the permalinks; I can't remember the proper wikilink syntax.
Pelagic ( talk) 22:33, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
@ Largoplazo: I understand the point you are trying to make in this edit but honestly this section is literally just "the Arabic script 101", it doesn't talk about the Persian adaptations at all. I was considering trying to reframe it today because, for example, the vowel length of Middle Persian and early New Persian has collapsed (in three distinct manners: Western, Dari and Tajiki!) into a five or seven vowel system, but the spelling remains archaic. Also, Persian remains an abjad; it's not like Yiddish's adaptation of the Aramaic Square Script at all.
I think the solution is to section it, talk about Arabic (I cleaned that section up a bit but it could be slimmed down more), then talk about how Middle Persian borrowed it and what it means in Western Persian today (vowels, sound collapse). Ogress 22:05, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
[2] is a PDF with a part of دستور خطّ فارسى by Academy of Persian Language and Literature. The article links to it twice: as a reference for the table of letters, and under external links. But its full text is also available in textual form at Academy's site and this is the relevant chapter. Perhaps it would be better than image-only PDF? — mwgamera ( talk) 05:55, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
i think the box has a wrong letter? doesn't Persian use the Asian ک instead of Arabic ك usually? Irtapil ( talk) 05:33, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
it seems to be generated by the template. {{Arabic-script sidebar|Persian}} Irtapil ( talk) 05:36, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
others... it seems to use Asian Key in other languages... i'm not sure if Arabic Kaf maybe is used in Persian?
"Add an unnamed first parameter Pashto, Persian, Urdu, Burushaski, Saraiki, Punjabi, Sindhi or Uyghur (case-insensitive) to display that alphabet instead..." [3]
weird... urdu and Persian boxes use the same character and call the same fonts but they looked different on my pc... and nobody had edited the template since February
|persian = {{Lang|1=fa|2=<span style="font-size: 125%; line-height: 170%;"> {{Nastaliq| [[ا]] [[ب]] [[پ]] [[ت]] [[ث]] [[ج]] [[چ]] [[ح]] [[خ]] [[د]] [[ذ]] [[ر]] [[ز]] [[ژ]] [[س]] [[ش]] [[ص]] [[ض]] [[ط]] [[ظ]] [[ع]] [[غ]] [[ف]] [[ق]] [[ک]] [[گ]] [[ل]] [[م]] [[ن]] [[و]] [[ه]] [[ی]] |fa}} </span>}} |urdu = {{Lang|1=ur|2=<span style="font-size: 125%; line-height: 170%;"> {{Nastaliq| [[ا]] [[ب]] [[پ]] [[ت]] [[ٹ]] [[ث]] [[ج]] [[چ]] [[ح]] [[خ]] [[د]] [[ڈ]] [[ذ]] [[ر]] [[ڑ]] [[ز]] [[ژ]] [[س]] [[ش]] [[ص]] [[ض]] [[ط]] [[ظ]] [[ع]] [[غ]] [[ف]] [[ق]] [[ک]] [[گ]] [[ل]] [[م]] [[ن]] ([[ں]]) [[و]] [[ہ]] ([[ھ]]) [[ء]] [[ی]] [[ے]] }} </span>}}
|persian = ا ب پ ت ث ج چ ح خ د ذ ر ز ژ س ش ص ض ط ظ ع غ ف ق ک گ ل م ن و ه ی |urdu = ا ب پ ت ٹ ث ج چ ح خ د ڈ ذ ر ڑ ز ژ س ش ص ض ط ظ ع غ ف ق ک گ ل م ن ( ں) و ہ ( ھ) ء ی ے
would the Lang tags change which font it uses? might one be showing in Urdi typesetting and the other in noto nastaliq? Irtapil ( talk) 08:26, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
Persian has an extra |fa at the end?
let's see what moving that to the اردو box does...
noto nastaliq urdu = عربي ك كك ؛ اردو ک کک ؛ فارسی ک کک ؛ سنڌي ک کک ڪ ڪڪ
urdu typesetting = عربي ك كك ؛ اردو ک کک ؛ فارسی ک کک ؛ سنڌي ک کک ڪ ڪڪ
Urdu عربي ك كك ؛ اردو ک کک ؛ فارسی ک کک ؛ سنڌي ک کک ڪ ڪڪ
Persian عربي ك كك ؛ اردو ک کک ؛ فارسی ک کک ؛ سنڌي ک کک ڪ ڪڪ
Urdu عربي ك كك ؛ اردو ک کک ؛ فارسی ک کک ؛ سنڌي ک کک ڪ ڪڪ
Persian عربي ك كك ؛ اردو ک کک ؛ فارسی ک کک ؛ سنڌي ک کک ڪ ڪڪ
Irtapil ( talk) 15:29, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
the lang tags and nastaliq tags do conspire to serve fonts in a different order [4]
noto nastaliq removes the squiggle from arabic K (blue) but i cannot work out why the two farsi lang tags add the squiggle to Asian K (yellow).
Irtapil ( talk) 16:16, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
|persian = عربي ك ككك Arabic ك ک گ ككك ککک گگگ فارسی ک ککک Farsi
lang
HTML attribute with IETF language tag ({{lang|}}
template on Wikipedia) beside possibly guiding browser in selection of right font is also passed along to the font rendering engine where it might influence glyph substitutions (in sufficiently modern browser one can also use font-language-override
CSS property with OpenType language tag instead). It's up to a font to make use of this information and Noto Nastaliq Urdu does what you see.I am removing the section about the "proposed Latin alphabet".
It was originally added with a single reference to the primary source by the author of the proposal (Hayat, Anwar (2019). "The Impact of Arabic Orthography on Literacy and Economic Development in Afghanistan". International Journal of Education, Culture and Society. 4: 1.
doi:
10.11648/j.ijecs.20190401.11{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (
link)) published in what Wikipedia regards as a predatory open access journal. The reference was later removed because of this.
There are no other references and there is no evidence of it being used anywhere or even seriously considered by anyone.
The description wasn't even complete as the table was missing some of the proposed letters that couldn't be realized with Unicode.
Perhaps there are some ad-hoc romanization systems that might deserve some mention, but this section is not about them. Although some editors probably thought it is as evidenced by some edits to the table that made it inconsistent with the text preceding it.
As it stands now it just describes some random person's Latin-based conscript for Persian which is neither relevant to the article nor notable at all. Not a
WP:SOAPBOX.
I don't think it could even be used as a starting point for anything useful. It doesn't make any sense to keep it around so I am removing it.
While I'm at it, I would like to mention that I can't see what is the purpose of the subheadings Persian alphabet § Variants (a big image with isolated forms from different fonts; it doesn't work as a showcase of differences between different styles if that was the intent) and Persian alphabet § Letter construction (an extremely inefficient way of showing relations between letters in a form of mostly blank table which isn't specific to Persian and that looks like a camouflaged advertisement of Compart AG), but I am not touching them now. – MwGamera ( talk) 17:10, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
Although not as common as the l & a ligature, the ligature of h & a is very common in persian stylistic writing scripts, quite similar to U+0664 ٤
An example of this can be seen here: https://nastaliqonline.ir/NastaliqOnline.ir.aspx?16918.3871671
It ought to be added to the section about ligatures
83.59.2.106 (
talk) 00:13, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
The Cyrillic Script in Tajik-Persian is not de facto anymore and was not ever since 2004... They even updated certain orthographic rules by law. 62.89.209.185 ( talk) 22:49, 14 July 2023 (UTC)