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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 12 January 2022 and 4 May 2022. Further details are available
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Per this press release from E. Clay Shaw the official name of the MSA was changed from Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Miami Beach to Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach in 2003. This document from the Broward County Planning Services Division states that the United States Office of Management and Budget refers to the Southeast Florida MSA as the Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach MSA. If anyone can find a souce indicating that the name has been changed back, please cite it. -- Donald Albury( Talk) 10:45, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
- The metropolitan area name was changed again in December 2005 to Miami–Fort Lauderdale–Miami Beach. See http://www.census.gov/population/estimates/metro_general/List1.txt. — RJN 18:26, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Was it actively changed back or was that just some document that used the name of the area that was used back in the 2000 census? The others are press releases, I can't find any items that indicate it was intentionally changed back.... aapold
- Going through the names used since 1990, it looks like the MSA name has always used Miami Beach ever since Palm Beach County was included in the Miami MSA. (West Palm Beach was a separate MSA in 1990, 1993, and 1999.) The 2004 and 2005 Palm Beach city populations are larger than the Miami Beach city population. West Palm Beach would most likely replace Miami Beach in the official name in the next redefinition. -- Polaron | Talk 05:11, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
- The best I can figure is that the Office of Management and Budget, which is the authoritative agency for these names, changed it to Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach in 2003, but the Census Bureau hasn't changed its listings. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dalbury ( talk • contribs) .
- The Office of Management and Budget was the one who changed it to Miami–Fort Lauderdale–Miami Beach as of December 2005 definition. Click here and look at page 21 of the PDF file. — RJN 00:34, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if this is the proper place for this comment, but is it possible to get a better representative picture of Ft. Lauderdale? The one on here is pretty awful! Bgtgwazi 20:10, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
i dont think those cities are prinicpal, infact Kendall is a CDP not even a city. I think it should just be, Miami, Ft. Lauderdale and west Palm Beach. What do you think?
- It doesn't matter what you think. Putting what you think in the article would be original research. Principal cities in MSAs are defined by the Office of Management and Budget. As listed in METROPOLITAN AND MICROPOLITAN STATISTICAL AREAS AND PRINCIPAL CITIES, December 2005, WITH CODES, the Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Miami Beach, FL Metropolitan Statistical Area has the following Principal Cities listed: Miami, Fort Lauderdale, Miami Beach, West Palm Beach, Pompano Beach, Kendall, Boca Raton, Deerfield Beach, Boynton Beach and Delray Beach. This is verifiable. As soon as I close this comment, I'll make sure list of Principal Cities is properly cited. -- Donald Albury( Talk) 00:39, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
The Miami urbanized area does extend to the cities of Fort Lauderdale and eastern West Palm beach, as far north as Jupiter and as far south as Florida City. The Census Bureau treats the whole thing as a single urban area. -- Polaron | Talk 15:29, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
- There are different things involved here. The SMA includes all of Broward, Miami-Dade and Palm Beach Counties. The 'Miami urbanized area' includes the densely populated area extending from from Florida City to Jupiter/Tequesta (and actually, a little bit into Martin County), but it is only two to twenty miles wide. SMA 'Divisions' are just that, statistical division within an SMA, and the Miami-Ft.Lauderdale-Miami Beach SMA is divided into the three division listed in the article. -- Donald Albury 23:22, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Is this correct? Pompano Beach, Florida - Marc Averette 18:08, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- The 2005 estimate by the Census Bureau is 104,179.
[1] --
Polaron |
Talk 18:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- Then should the template have
Pompano Beach added to it to reflect this? -
Marc Averette 18:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- To the template (at the top of the article)? Not necessarily. I think the top 5 cities (after Miami) are probably enough. To
this section? Yes, I think that would be correct. Using the 2005 estimate seems acceptable, as this was also done for
Miami Gardens, Florida.
Ufwuct 19:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- Ah, I see, the recent annexations pushed Pompano over 100,000. As the plan is for all unincorporated populated areas in Broward County to be annexed into one of the cities, we can expect other cities in Broward to show sudden jumps in population. -- Donald Albury 02:29, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- To the template (at the top of the article)? Not necessarily. I think the top 5 cities (after Miami) are probably enough. To
this section? Yes, I think that would be correct. Using the 2005 estimate seems acceptable, as this was also done for
Miami Gardens, Florida.
Ufwuct 19:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- Then should the template have
Pompano Beach added to it to reflect this? -
Marc Averette 18:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
says its often no more than 5 miles wide. thats just not true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
- I agree, mostly. The only spot where it looks like it could be about 5 miles across would be north of the Broward County line between Boca Raton and Boynton Beach. The word "often" is misleading. It's "often" from 10-15 miles across. -
Marc Averette 19:17, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- The 'five-miles wide' is sourced (
[2]) in the article. Don't removed information that is sourced based on your personal opinion. Moreover, if you will look at the map at
[3], you will see that the southern portion down to Florida City and the northern portion from West Palm Beach to southern Martin County are both narrow. --
Donald Albury 00:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- The source states "as little as five miles". It doesn't use the misleading word "often". The article should reflect what the source states. - Marc Averette 05:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- The 'five-miles wide' is sourced (
[2]) in the article. Don't removed information that is sourced based on your personal opinion. Moreover, if you will look at the map at
[3], you will see that the southern portion down to Florida City and the northern portion from West Palm Beach to southern Martin County are both narrow. --
Donald Albury 00:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm wondering if I should add the Southern Blvd. section of Florida State Road 80 in eastern Palm Beach County to the freeways section of the article. It is being made as a limited access freeway, but theres still about 3 tiny intersections along the way that they don't plan on converting to on/off-ramps. Discuss.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Andyxox ( talk • contribs)
- It is just a limited part of the highway. I think maybe a section in Florida State Road 80 specifically about the limited access section, and a link to that section from the list of freeways would do the trick. -- Donald Albury 14:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
This article seems to be mostly a collection of lists. While there is some actual content elsewhere, it doesn't seem well represented in the lead paragraphs. My understanding is that lead paragraphs should be used to summarise the content in the article, yet there does not seem much regarding the climate, transportation, government or media sections. Likewise, very little information in the lead paragraph seems to coincide with any sections. I hope that helps a bit. -- Kmsiever 20:27, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
- Yes I have to agree the lead does not summarise information found elsewhere in the article and much of the lead should itself be in the Demographics section. The very large list of settlements could be split into a separate page e.g. List of settlements in South Florida metropolitan area which would help reduce the amount of lists on this page. Similarly the Sports and Media sections should be converted from lists into prose.
- A history section, even if fairly short, would be useful in an article of this sort. Although many references are provided some sections have a distinct lack of them. For example the climate section only has two despite having many facts which could do with references. I hope these suggestions also help, in my opinion this article is likely to fail the GA nomination in its current state. - Suicidalhamster 00:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
What are the determining factors? The document just mentions population, but obviously that's not the only factor. Hialeah, Florida has over 200,000 and is the 2nd largest city. Why isn't it called Miami-Hialeah-Ft. Lauderdale metro area? - Marc Averette 00:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- The short answer is that Hialeah is classified as a suburb of Miami, i.e. it is not a principal city of the metropolitan area. Only principal cities (cities that function as regional employment attractors) can be used in the name of a metropolitan statistical area. --
Polaron |
Talk 04:20, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the info. I know that Pompano is mostly business/industrial parks between I-95 & the Turnpike. Many people work there and that must have something to do with it. -
Marc Averette 14:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Found it! From the Federal Register of December 12, 2003
[4]:
- A ‘‘principal city’’ is defined in relation to a CBSA [Core Based Statistical Areas] rather than an MSA. The principal city (or cities) of a CBSA includes: (A) The largest incorporated place in the CBSA with a Census 2000 population of at least 10,000 or, if no such place exists, the largest incorporated place or census designated place in the CBSA; (B) any additional incorporated place or census designated place with a Census 2000 population of at least 250,000 or in which 100,000 or more persons work; (C) any additional incorporated place or census designated place with a Census 2000 population of at least 50,000, but less than 250,000, and in which the number of jobs meets or exceeds the number of employed residents; and (D) any additional incorporated place or census designated place with a Census 2000 population of at least 10,000, but less than 50,000, and one-third the population size of the largest place, and in which the number of jobs meets or exceeds the number of employed residents (65 FR 82236).
- --
Donald Albury 00:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- I see. That's why Miami Beach was listed most recently, even though it only has 87,000 residents, the staggering # of hotels & restaurants employ probably another 100,000, whereas other cities that are more populous (like West Palm) don't have as massive a workforce. - Marc Averette 00:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- Found it! From the Federal Register of December 12, 2003
[4]:
- Thanks for the info. I know that Pompano is mostly business/industrial parks between I-95 & the Turnpike. Many people work there and that must have something to do with it. -
Marc Averette 14:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- West Palm Beach replaced Miami Beach in the title a couple of years ago, but it was switched back again after a short time. As the announcement of the the change to West Palm Beach came from Clay Shaw's office, I suspect there was political pressure to make the change, and it may not have been strictly by the regs. -- Donald Albury 00:11, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I have failed the Good Article nomination as this article does not meet the criteria. See the above comments for more details. The main problems are extensive lists, a lead which does not summarise the article and inadequate references in some sections. Hope this is useful in getting the article to GA standard. - Suicidalhamster 18:53, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
South Florida redirects here, however South Florida covers Fort Myers south on the West Coast and Port St. Lucie South on the east coast, based off annual temperatures and commuting. This page should state that this page is only the metropolitan area, not all of South Florida. Casey14 18:59, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Query: I'd like to see some discussion--perhaps a new article--about the historical use of the term "South Florida." How did a university in Tampa come up with that name? Was the state's panhandle once known as "north Florida," while the whole peninsula was known as "south Florida"? to an outsider looking at map of the state, that terminology would make sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.82.231.152 ( talk) 21:50, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Due to Florida's prominence in the exotic pet trade, iguanas imported as pets have escaped or been released, and are now established in South Florida. This has created unique problems for Florida's homeowners and businesses. South and Central Florida's subtropical climate allows these large herbivorous (plant-eating) lizards to survive, reproduce, and become part of the Florida environment.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/IN528 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joe2832 ( talk • contribs) 21:16, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Someone just changed the "common name" in the infobox from "Miami - Ft. Lauderdale" to "Miami-Dade - Broward - Palm Beach". My impulse is to say that the most common "common name" for the area is "South Florida". I don't hear people saying "Miami-Dade - Broward - Palm Beach", and I doubt most people use "Miami-Ft. Lauderdale" to refer to the three county area. Anyway, let's get some discussion going and see if we can agree on something. -- Donald Albury 21:52, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
- I can definitely say Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach, Miami-Dade-Broward-Palm Beach, Miami-Fort Lauderdale, and all its variations, are not the common names. However, "South Florida", "Miami metro", or sometimes even just "Miami" if you're from outside the state, could all be common names. -- Comayagua99 ( talk) 23:25, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Just curious, but wouldn't the highest current elevation (even though it is manmade) be one of the Mouth Trashmores, like the one near the Dade-Broward line in the Turnpike? Since it is dirt-covered, would it no longer be considered "artificial"? I know, I have too much time on my hands, but I saw that mountain and thought that it was MUCH more than 15 feet high. CodeCarpenter ( talk) 14:18, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
- I believe elevation doesn't count unless it's natural. Key West also has a "trashmore" that's about 100 ft high (on Stock Island), but it's not considered since Solares Hill is listed as the high point. There's a site called Peakbagger that lists high points taken from topographic maps. Here's Miami's highpoint (20 feet) and Dade County's highpoint (35 feet). - Marc Averette ( talk) 23:28, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
A correction needs to be made in the section dealing with schools. In Florida, almost ALL superindents are elected to office, not appointed by school boards. Nor are they necessarily "professional", though most have some teaching experience.``` —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.55.24.66 ( talk) 20:35, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- Not sure where you get that idea. A little over half (not "almost ALL") of the superintendents are elected, but the superintendents for ALL of the largest districts (effectively all that contain cities someone who doesn't live in Florida would have heard of) are appointed. Further, relevant to this article, the superintendent for each of the South Florida school districts (Miami-Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach) are appointed. How "professional" they are is up for debate, but they are selected as if they are professional... 108.74.28.81 ( talk) 04:57, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
The official name of the MSA is set by the Office of Management and Budget. That name has been Miami-Ft. Lauderdale-Pompano Beach for a number of years now. Unless and until someone can cite a more recent bulletin or list from the Office of Management and Budget showing a new name, Pompano Beach is part of the name and West Palm Beach is not. As MSAs are defined by the OMB, using anything other than the name designated by the OMB is OR. -- Donald Albury 10:04, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
"monthly housing costs for mortgaged owners was $71,517"..., etc. Can someone source this? I think not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bollyjeff ( talk • contribs) 19:43, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
- I did a cursory Google to see if any hard numbers popped up; none did, so I dumped the sentence entirely and replaced it with cited figures about income percentage. If anybody gets real amounts, they can be added, but leaving the figures as they were adds nothing to WP's credibility. Fat&Happy ( talk) 21:50, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: page moved to "least worst choice" -- JHunterJ ( talk) 14:25, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
South Florida metropolitan area →
Miami metropolitan area – This is a long time coming: basically, this is far and away the
most common name for this subject in the sources. The form "South Florida metropolitan area" is virtually never used outside of Wikipedia. Many sources that do use it are copies of or referring to Wikipedia,
[5] suggesting that Wikipedia's
observer effect is making it more prominent - which is a problem. "South Florida" is used widely, but as the new article
South Florida and its cited sources demonstrate, this term can refer to a much larger part of the state than just this three-county area.
Reviewing sources for the Dade-Broward-Palm Beach County metro area, "Miami metropolitan area" or "Miami metro area" are by far the most common names for the topic. They return
5120 and
4170 sources on Google Books, respectively. I found a few dozen for
"Miami-Ft. Lauderdale metropolitan area" and related searches, and 205 for the full Census name
"Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Miami Beach, FL MSA". There though, some sources like
this that refer to the MSA name then use the simpler form in the rest of the work. It's pretty clear that "Miami metropolitan area" is the most common, concise, natural, and precise name for this subject, and is consistent with Wikipedia practice on similar articles. relisted --
Mike Cline (
talk) 11:54, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Cúchullain
t/
c 14:38, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- You might want to try "Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach MSA", because that is the OMB name for the metro region; Miami Beach hasn't been in the name for quite a while now. Just running a quick google search (no tailoring or checking for noise) pulled up 661,000 hits (with the term in quotes).
- The issue (as has been noted before) is that places like Tequesta are 90 miles away from Miami, but are in the same metro area, because of the way the government defines metropolitan areas outside of New England. Most of the people in the northern half of Palm Beach County are not going to identify with Miami, and we'll have tedious and interminable discussions about splitting the article into individual Metropolitan Divisions, and so forth. Occasionally, Wikipedia has issues with terminology unique to itself because of limitations inherent to the software in regard to names. Witness the train wrecks over Macedonia (all four of them), Ireland (the country, the island, the national identity, among others), China (both of them, plus the porcelain product). I'm not dead set against it, but I don't like the idea of using Miami (which has about 8% of the entire metropolitan area's population) as the sole identifier. I suppose that my feedback would boil down to oppose move.
Horologium
(talk) 16:34, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Good point on the MSA name, my bad. On Google Books, I found only 8 hits for the current Census name,
"Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach, FL MSA" and only 1 for
"Miami-Ft. Lauderdale-Pompano Beach MSA (a Census abstract). At any rate I think my findings are clear: by about any measure it appears that (1) "South Florida metropolitan area" is virtually never used outside of Wikipedia or sources copying it, meaning it's not an acceptable title, and (2) of all the possible options, "Miami metropolitan area" would appear to be the most common name for the subject at hand.--
Cúchullain
t/
c 18:10, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- We had a discussion on this recently, and I, very reluctantly, agreed that "Miami metropolitan area" was better than the alternatives. I think the real problem is that there is no common name of the three county area because the "Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach MSA" is an artificial construction of the Federal government for statistical purposes, and is not an entity that feels natural to most people familiar with the area. To me, the Miami metro area is pretty much confined to Miami-Dade County. Having lived in Miami for my first 20 years and more recently in Palm Beach County for 30 years or so, I cannot wrap my head around the idea that Palm Beach County is part of a Miami metro area. It just grates. -- Donald Albury 01:12, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- Good point on the MSA name, my bad. On Google Books, I found only 8 hits for the current Census name,
"Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach, FL MSA" and only 1 for
"Miami-Ft. Lauderdale-Pompano Beach MSA (a Census abstract). At any rate I think my findings are clear: by about any measure it appears that (1) "South Florida metropolitan area" is virtually never used outside of Wikipedia or sources copying it, meaning it's not an acceptable title, and (2) of all the possible options, "Miami metropolitan area" would appear to be the most common name for the subject at hand.--
Cúchullain
t/
c 18:10, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- I just took a look at the results from the tailored google search Cúchullain ran for "Miami metropolitan area", and it's clear that there are going to be some problems. The first hit (other than the wikipedia article) is an e-book which is nothing more than a scrape of the Wikipedia article on "South Florida metropolitan area" and a bunch of statistics by zip code. The second book (which dates back to 1996) is specifically about Dade County (the map at the beginning of the section, while not large or clear, is only Dade County). The third book, which dates back to 2002, is also only about Dade County (the table on page 46 has entries for Miami, Fort Lauderdale, and West Palm Beach). The next two don't have any clear information (their contents are not displayed). The next one (Spanish Pathway in Florida) discusses only Dade County, and as it dates to 1991, it also probably only addresses Miami, which was separate from Fort Lauderdale at that point. The following book doesn't have any viewable pages. The travel guide is a scrape of the Wikipedia article. The last hit on the first page, which dates back to 1997, addresses only Dade County. Remember that Miami and Fort Lauderdale were separate PMSAs until 2003, when the PMSA definition was abolished, and Palm Beach County was not even a part of the CMSA until then. I haven't bothered to look at the other list, considering the problems I found with the first.
Horologium
(talk) 11:23, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- My perspective is that we have to pick the most suitable and common title out of the underwhelming options. The current title is perhaps the very least suitable option, as it's a made-up construct that barely exists outside of Wikipedia. I don't see any refutation of this in either of the current oppose votes. Of all the options, "Miami metropolitan area", for all its problems, appears to be far and away the most common. Even discounting the sources referring only to Miami-Dade County, this still seems to be the case. In a cursory search I found the following works that use that form for the entire metro: [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] These were just from the first couple of pages of a search of 21st century sources. That's already on pace to outnumber the handful of sources that refer to the "South Florida metropolitan area", a large majority of which are just copying or referring to Wikipedia's idiosyncratic usage.-- Cúchullain t/ c 13:40, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- Support per nom. " Miami metropolitan area" is the least worst choice and is evidently the common name. — AjaxSmack 04:20, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Support per nom and AjaxSmack. - Presidentman talk · contribs Random Picture of the Day ( Talkback) 12:21, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Support move to "Miami metropolitan area." -- Comayagua99 ( talk) 00:41, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Regarding this topic, I wrote this over at the South Florida talk page, so I'll copy it over here: Having both a South Florida article and a South Florida metropolitan area articles is confusing, as the two correlate to roughly the same geographic area. There's a lot of overlap between the two, and I'm worried this might create more confusion than is necessary. Either we [1] merge the two under "South Florida," or [2] keep "South Florida" as a broader regional term encompassing the geographic southern portion of the state, and move "South Florida metropolitan area" to "Greater Miami" or "Miami metropolitan area," and focus that article on Miami's official MSA. My main concern with the second option is, someone searching for "South Florida" is probably searching for information on the Miami metro area, not necessarily "Southern Florida."-- Comayagua99 ( talk) 00:44, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Hi! The Miami metro map badly needs a repainting or vectorization. You could use Open Street Map material. Can you do this? Cheers Horst-schlaemma ( talk) 13:48, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
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- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140904094839/http://nationalatlas.gov/printable/images/pdf/congdist/pagecgd113_fl.pdf to http://www.nationalatlas.gov/printable/images/pdf/congdist/pagecgd113_fl.pdf
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The map displayed in the infobox shows the Miami urbanized area, which is part of, but not the same as, the Miami metropolitan area. The map used to have a caption that described it (see this dif), but the caption has been lost, and readers may be led to think it represents the MSA when it actually just represents the urbanized, or built-up, part of the MSA. - Donald Albury 01:33, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
- And now that I think about it, the Miami urbanized area extends a little bit into Martin County (although it is hard to see that on the map). - Donald Albury 01:35, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
"The Miami metropolitan area also includes several urban clusters (UCs) as of the 2000 Census which are not part of the Miami Urbanized Area. These are the Belle Glade UC, population 24,218, area 20,717,433 square meters and population density of 3027.6 per square mile; Key Biscayne UC, population 10,513, area 4,924,214 square meters and population density of 5529.5 per square mile; Redland UC, population 3,936, area 10,586,212 square meters and population density of 963.0 per square mile; and West Jupiter UC, population 8,998, area 24,737,176 square meters and population density of 942.1 per square mile."
Why is this formatted like this? I'm pretty tired right now, or I'd try to fix this myself. (This is in the lede, by the way.) Skarmory (talk • contribs) 01:52, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
- I added that paragraph about the urban clusters more than 16 years ago, when almost the whole article consisted of what is now the lead. That information is now more than 20 years old, and should either be updated (and moved down in the article) or removed. I may try to find the equivalent info from the 2020 census (although I have a backlog of things to look up), but that paragraph is no longer essential in the lead. Donald Albury 14:39, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
I have corrected some items in the infobox and lead to match the OMB definitions. Please note that all of the population and economic data in the article are for the MSA as defined by the OMB. Changing the name of the MSA, or adding names to the list of " principal cities" without support from a citation to the most recent OMB bulletin, is original research. (See above for earlier discussions about the name of the MSA and the list of "principal cities".) I think something open to discussion is whether we want the list of "principal cities" in the article, and, if so, how high up in the article? Any list of "principal cities" must conform to the OMB defined list, however. Please note that any list of cities in the article must either be supported by a reliable source, or based on a simple criterion, such as the lists of cities by population size range that are currently in the article. We should not have any list that includes cities just because they are some editors' favorite, unless it includes all 104 incorporated municipalities in the MSA. Donald Albury 17:38, 21 May 2023 (UTC)