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Their claims are quite controversial; including their claims on this article is non-nuetral POV: [1]. Faustian ( talk) 02:17, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I dont find any controversial claims in your source about Siemaszko-- Paweł5586 ( talk) 06:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Read this from begining. Ukrainian nacionalist sources are lying. Now in Poland even Motyka claims that was a genocide. Read Igor Iljuszyn book Ak and UPA, Struggle in West Ukraine. I dont have many English sources, but trust me in Volhynia and Estern Galicia UPA, OUN, and SB made many massacres on Poles, Ukrainian. Polish revenge was made mainly by Shutzman battalions, Istrebietylnyje batalions. AK didnt participate in massacres, it was rarely. Ukrainians has died about 10-20 th. Poles 80-120 th. -- Paweł5586 ( talk) 19:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
And now Ukrainian goverment and Juszczenko denies Ukrainian responsibility for that genocide. Poland is supporting Ukraine, needed distorting the crime isn't -- Paweł5586 ( talk) 19:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
This Wnuks's text is not actual, now most of Polish historiagraphy are claiming it is genocide, e.g. Motyka. Only Misiło and Drozd are trying to to justify UPA-- Paweł5586 ( talk) 20:19, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Read this.15th July 2009 Sejm of the Republic of Poland adopted a resolution unanimously about celebrating the tragic fate of Poles on the Eastern borderlands. In the resolution they reminded that in July he was passing 66. anniversary "of beginning the II Republic of so-called anti-Polish actions on lines by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army - of mass murders about character of the ethnic cleansing and genocidal birthmarks".-- Paweł5586 ( talk) 11:25, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes your translation is correct. Last words means - genocidal accidents. It is the same.-- Paweł5586 ( talk) 17:10, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Didnot becouse of Ukrainian ambassador protest. But word genocide is used.-- Paweł5586 ( talk) 06:55, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
I reverted the revert of sub sectioning. I understand the reason for the revert, but I disagree. In choosing the names of the subsections I specifically avoided using the word genocide for that very reason. If you think the main section header is the problem, I didn't choose "Notable genocide denials by governments" and I'm not objecting to it being changed. As for the {{main}} tag, I was simply linking to the name of the articles. If you think the article names are poorly chosen because they imply the genocides actually took place, that's fine, go to those articles and suggest a rename. I won't object, I just think this article should point directly to whatever those articles are named. If this is almost, but not quite, enough of an argument, the manual of style prefers paragraphs to bulleted lists. Vicarious ( talk) 00:31, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
In the bibliography of the Rwandan Genocide, the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano has been cited as a likely source of soft-core genocide denial, by having publicly evoked the theory of the double genocide in several articles published in the period of 1994-1999. ( War crimes: confronting atrocity in the modern world (p. 85) by David Chuter) ADM ( talk) 00:36, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
I reverted out a series of edit by user:Santasa99 because this is an article on genocide denial and the sources need to be reliable sources. For example WP:PROVEIT mean that if someone makes a comment on a blog page unless a reliable source quotes the blog and accuses the person of genocide denial we should not list it here. Further this article is about genocide denial, it is not about people who justify a genocide (odious as those views are). -- PBS ( talk) 12:15, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Well it is interesting that you reverted all of my contributions with only one explanation !? - I am not stupid, so I think that your explanation should be a bit more genuine. I listed all kinds of sources and refeerences for persons and institutions that I mentioned (What is your explanation for those institutes and organizations that are completely dedicated to the work of the Srebrenica genocide denial ?!). I did not cite blogs (in each and every case) dealing with comments, rumors, gossips and second hand informations , but only those where the authors have written many articles in which loudly and clearly deny or justify genocide and with certain publicity too. Further, what you mean "not about people who justify a genocide" - what are you talking about ??? What is justifing if not an apologetic manner of denial ?! If one say: "jews deserved gas chambers because ... whatever", for you that is justification not denial ? Or: "serbs had to revenge their forefathers" and slaughtered thousand in Srebrenica and around Bosnia, that is justification not denial ?
Well I am realy stunned and horrified with your removal and explanation of all those people and institutions with this petty explanation , so I think that others need to give their opinion about my contributions, but only after careful consideration of what I wrote.-- Santasa99 ( talk) 02:37, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
In a few moments you will be able to "rewiev" new input on Trifunović with all reliable sources (and notable too), rest - later. (Sorry I forgot signature)-- Santasa99 ( talk) 20:20, 24 October 2009 (UTC) May I continue with my entries-- Santasa99 ( talk) 20:24, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
What you mean "given sources do not say that the report denies a genocide, or that the ICRC fabricated its findings", what you exactly want ??? I really don't know what you want from me, I provided more sources then all others together , stop harsing me. It can't be more clear that he wrote a official report (government document) that provoked worldwide outage and that report was attempt to denied genocid. You asking me to provide evidences for somerhing that is evidence for itself. Do you making a joke with me ??? Should I read a report to you or you can read for yourself? Shoud I find someone to say or write " yah, that is exactly what the report state, denial of genocid, if you READ Report." Stop asking proves or evidences for evidence, thats unnecesary and often impossible !
Not to memtioned that I provided 10 time more evidences and sources for every entries I made, than you see in all other cases together in this section, but you keep deleting my inputs anyway, I am sick of it ! Maybe, you should honestly state your position on these contributions on Bosnia and Srebrenica genocid denial, so that we can ask for arbitration, if your position is unclear on this (Srebrenica genocid denial) issue.-- Santasa99 ( talk) 04:21, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
You don't harassing me, its looks like you just don't want Bosnian genocid deniers on this list ! Why don't you read Report, and then you will maybe stop doing this !? You will find that sentence backed with primary source - the Report ! What is the primary source for Report if not Report it self ???? Rest of the qouts are actualy secondary sources. What is that you want, exactly ? It is needless to say that what happened in Bosnia isn't a same as what hapened in Brazil and Helmet M. Your comparison of these cases is offensive, atleast. You questioning what hapened in Bosnia and what the author had meant is maybe something else - not what international community (ITCY, UN, OHR etc.) said it si, denial of genocid ! You constantly deleting other geniocid deniers because, its seems to me, thay denying Bosnian genocid, and not because I did not provide reliable source ! Don't do that, thats really bad thing to do ! ( talk) 17:41, 26 October 2009 (UTC) I am changing my response for the fourth time because I really don't understand what do you saying ! I don't want to accuse you, or anybody elese for that matter, for the same view on Bosnian genocid as people who denied genocid, but what Brazil and 14 deaths in the Helmet M. have to do with a case of Bosnian genocid deniers and this report.-- Santasa99 ( talk) 22:09, 26 October 2009 (UTC) Report consist exactly what that sentence summarizing - do you understand that ? If you read the report, or anyone who want to read it, you will find out for yourself.-- Santasa99 ( talk) 22:16, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
In case of the Report, author didn't denied just numbers, he denied everything - numbers, means, orders, all the facts. Finaly he denied genocid ever happened (not just in my mind if you afraid of me creating myth or personal interpretation).-- Santasa99 ( talk) 22:55, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Diana Johnston published book (alongside with published articles in a far left media outlets) denying genocid in Bosnia (in the same fashon as the Report: numbers, means, orders, places, everything), after she provoked a great deal of anger in Sweden, where she try to publish her book on the first place. Swedish publishing companies refused to publish that garbage, after she explained what the book is about, in a few interviews given in Swedish and UK newspapers. I am trying to find more reliable sources (although I believe I already did !), more suitable to your interpretations of Wikipedia rules, for her denial (not just in that book). I really want to avoid draging this indefinitely because I don't have time nor nerves - I am too close to the suffering and prolonged genocid (denial is a yet another stage in committing genocid), physically and emotionally, but I also believe that people should be exposed where and when ever one can.-- Santasa99 ( talk) 23:15, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Thank you very much for clearing this up, and pardon my naiveness. I thought your perspective in this matter is neutral, so I would probably continuously try to debate with you - an Administrator, and try to find out from where these double standards coming from and when will it stop and where your appreciation for consistency begins.-- Santasa99 ( talk) 19:40, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Having just come from the heavily biased Armenian Genocide article I think there should be a section here on the difference between dispute and denial as genocide despute is very different from genocide denial. Denial is claiming an event didn't happen or attemping to revise history to suit personal opinion, while dispute (of a genocide) can range from whether the events in question where a "technical genocide" or not, usually whether or not a group of mass killings are pre-meditated with the final goal of eradicaton, to whether the disputed genocide actually did occur in the manner suggested by historians, which can sometimes lean to denial if deliberatly innacurate historical analysis is used to come to such conclusions.
A good example are various British-Irish incidents from 1550's to 1990's, which some will claim were acts of attempted genocide from the English/British governemt throughout this period, especially from Oliver Cromwell, while others will claim if that is true then so is the deliberate targetting of early protestant settelers in Ireland by the Catholic population and such arguments go in circles and will never be resolved. Genocide is an unusual and difficult issue, like rape or capital punishment, where what seems clear cut actually becomes blurred when you look at events more closely. 212.183.140.19 ( talk) 15:31, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
American far-right blogger and conspiracy theorist, Pamela Geller, has denied the existence of concentration camps in Serbia during the regime of Slobodan Milosevic, whom she has defended.
I have no idea who this person is, but can someone tell me the names or locations of those "concentration camps in Serbia during the regime of Slobodan Milosevic"? -- Faveladweller ( talk) 17:31, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
Genocide Denial about Srebrenica?
Many people have found evidence from independent investigators that some of the eyewitness testimony was unreliable, like Dragan Erdemovic and that many of the people killed at Srebrenica were soldiers of the Muslim army and many dispute if Srebrenica was genocide. A massacre is not genocide because genocide is systematic, and massacres are isolated that happen in one place and the smearing of those who disagree with Srebrenica as genocide denial. Makes no mention of Edward S. Herman or Noam Chomsky who both deny that anything happened and there were Serbs killed around Srebrenica by Naser Oric and his band of warlords, several cleansed Serbian villages.
Some of the eyewitness testimony was unreliable and some Srebrenica victims listed as dead were later found to be alive in other places and Srebrenica is also a problem to criticize people's criticisms of it as genocide denial is ridiculous because there is no difference between legitimate criticism and denial of it and Srebrenica body counts messed up certain details and Serbs were killed around the area. Most of the dead were soldiers, as identified by investigators. Srebrenica was largely a massacre of civilians. One report says over 6 years, 6,500 bodies were found. Srebrenica was used as victimization by Bosnian Muslims as extreme ultranationalist anti-Serbian propaganda and the enshrinement was by many, considered ridiculous and many say so. Srebrenica many Muslims escaped the area by bus to Tuzla. Many survived. No matter how many times you say it, a massacre is not genocide!
Genocide denial is LARGELY A MATTER OF OPINION! THIS ARTICLE IS ABOUT FORCING OPINIONS AND I FIND A PROBLEM WITH THAT!
02:07, 21 February 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.11.158.220 ( talk)
Are you sure it's denial or an alternate viewpoint on the massacre? It only says that the RS report is flawed and poorly written, but does not state why and only forces one viewpoint on the whole massacre incident, but does not really bother to go into detail about it and the ICTY report also has flaws as well, such as bad eyewitness testimony, finding Serbs and misidentifications of Muslims as Serbs. Look it up, it's all there on the internet. Srebrenica is a controversial event, but massacres are never genocide because massacre and genocide have two different definitions,.
Genocide is systematic and widespread over a large area. Massacre is an event that takes place within a single area. This is not genocide denial at all. I feel that the whole genocide denial thing is completely ridiculous on Srebrenica, as other sources not listed on here, contradict the official story found by independent investigators from many countries on the Srebrenica case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.11.158.220 ( talk) 02:15, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
http://www.europeancourier.org/99.htm
02:19, 21 February 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.11.158.220 ( talk)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jul/19/not-genocide-deniers-uncover-truth
I am aware that people like to accuse people of genocide denial for questioning Srebrenica, even though it's not genocide denial and questioning of it does not make one a genocide denier, or for that matter a bad person. How about real genocide denial? Like Holocaust Deniers and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran. Many of those that deny Srebrenica are people that want truth about the whole incident and genocide denial accusation shuts down all debate on the incident, even though much has to be discussed on the incident, such as bad eyewitness testimony, and smearing people as deniers, which I think is completely wrong because bad research was done in the incident, and ICTY made numerous mistakes.
The 8,000 number is also highly contested among academics and historians. How's that for genocide denial, eh? Did you want to smear people that have honest questions about the incident, using honest research as deniers of the incident and genocide denial?
Srebrenica Historical Project has documented researchers being accused of genocide denial. This accusation is stupid and childish. Srebrenica is still contested by academics and is considered to be theatrical by many people that nae-calling on the whole incident and protecting the incident by name calling, indicates that there is something wrong here. No more name calling. Please cite Ahmadinejad's Holocaust statements as genocide denial, instead of the contested Srebrenica Genocide thing, which is being disputed on Wikipedia and academia throughout the world. Shutting down debate by using the word genocide denial is wrong. It's not genocide denial.
Besides, it's contested whether or not Srebrenica IS or constitutes a genocide, by many experts.
02:32, 21 February 2012 (UTC) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
108.11.158.220 (
talk)
http://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/reliefweb_pdf/node-105000.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.11.158.220 ( talk) 02:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC) http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/?p=2371
Calling it genocide denial, while the event is highly contested, I think is a bit premature, don't you? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.11.158.220 ( talk) 02:41, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
References
This bullet point is being removed without valid reason. The user responsible, User:Cmeiqnj removed it saying, "No secondary source provided = serious BLP concerns". There are no such issues. The person himself has written letters to the editor to two publications in the 1990s stating there was no genocide, which were published. Therefore we can use that as a basis of including this public figure in the list of genocide deniers. This user is on a campaign to remove any association between Cenk and genocide denial, thus whitewashing his Wikipedia presence. That is not appropriate. There are published examples of this person's genocide denial, he himself wrote them, and has addressed the fact recently, and it should be included here. Once again, if there is a genuine reason it should not be included in the article, it should be explained. Otherwise, it goes in and it stays. End of whitewash. -- RaffiKojian ( talk) 10:17, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
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Prizewinning Holocaust scholar Philippe Sands pointed out that the UN Convention on Genocide and most of the world's governments are tardy in recognising every aspect of genocide, in an historical presentation at Conway Hall Ethical Society yesterday. He states that, of world governments, only Brazil recognises genocide towards homosexuals in law, and that none of the world's governments currently recognises the victimhood of political groups in genocide, in clear contravention of the relevant histories.-- 5.150.92.174 ( talk) 13:58, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
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Said section makes eight extremely bold claims in the form of a bulleted list with one citation to share between claims. I don't doubt the veracity or the importance of the section, but both citations and general expansion/explanation is needed. 198.27.250.176 ( talk) 11:53, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
Oh, also, given the subject (denial), it is very important to have extensive citations. 198.27.250.176 ( talk) 11:59, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
VahagnAvedian ( talk) 12:37, 14 November 2018 (UTC) Replaced the existing bullet-form factors with a text which I hope covers all those pointed out in the bullets. If there is a need for complementing the text with aspects which are missing in the current text, bring them up here and we'll add those to the text. ( talk) 13:36, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Should there not be pages in the infobox, top-right, of the denial of Indigenous genocides? Like, there is denial right and left of any genocide against Mi'kmaq, Inuit, Cherokee, Lenape, any of the Haudenosaunee nations, Kalapuya and, well, literally every Indigenous nation in what is now the United States, Canada and Australia. Danachos ( talk) 00:03, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
I'm concerned about this page being used to push the POV, in Wikivoice, that certain events are genocides. This appears to be the case with the "Uyghur genocide" section. An RfC at the main article, Uyghur genocide, resulted in a consensus last year that the article could not state in Wikivoice that there is a genocide against the Uyghurs. Some of the same editors involved in that article, who most be aware of that consensus, have now inserted a section here on "Uyghur genocide", strongly implying in Wikivoice that there is a genocide. This is just an end-run around the consensus at "Uyghur genocide", and appears to be an attempt to insert the same extreme POV that was rejected at that article here. - Thucydides411 ( talk) 16:31, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
Implying and stating aren't the same thing: This is supposed to make it better? We cannot imply or state in Wikivoice that there is a genocide against the Uyghurs when that assertion is extremely questionable and widely disputed. The "China" section here takes the POV that there is a genocide, and labels people who dispute that assertion deniers. This is obviously a POV issue, and an extremely serious one at that. - Thucydides411 ( talk) 08:21, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
There exists a serious debate in reliable sources as to whether the events/actions are a genocide. The events/actions may not be labelled as a genocide in wikivoice, that is, as an uncontested fact.There is in fact consensus that we cannot describe it as a genocide.
allegationsinto outright genocide denial is misusing it as a source given how the term is normally used in academia. Inclusion on this page should rely on scholarly / academic sources specifically saying that this is
genocide denial(or words that clearly have the same meaning), and should probably attribute to those unless the consensus about what's happening is overwhelming, which I don't think it is. If those sources can't be found then it shouldn't be mentioned at all; the current formulation strikes me as WP:OR. -- Aquillion ( talk) 16:44, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
IMO this whole article shouldn't exist. Per the definition of the lead, it only applies to when a genocide has taken place so mere presence in the article is essentially a statement, in the voice of Wikipedia that what occurred / is occurring is a genocide. And "genocide" has many widely varying meanings varying from worst possible (deliberate extermination via mass murder) to rebranding of events which are normally not considered to be genocide as "genocide" for political type purposes. And so the article is primarily a coatrack for claiming something is a genocide. And th ostensible topic (denials of such) really isn't a distinct topic. North8000 ( talk) 17:07, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
genocide denialis a reasonably common and well-defined term in academic literature, so it's reasonable to have an article for it. But given that it is also a very heavy term, I feel we should limit sourcing to ones that use the term genocide denial specifically, and examples to ones where the term is used unambiguously in high-quality sources. Honestly though I feel like the people who want a paragraph here should search for those sources first and put together a new sentence using them, with attribution, if they exist. (A quick Google Scholar search is surprisingly sparse - moreso than I expected, with the few results I glanced over not being relevant - so it is possible the sources actually do not exist. But I didn't search very hard.) -- Aquillion ( talk) 09:44, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
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I would like to fix this pace SleepyHollow4ever ( talk) 03:46, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
Could we please highlight the current Russian government's denial and its efforts to deny the existence of the war against Ukraine?
GaryTalk to me 14:35, 24 March 2022 (UTC) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Antalope (
talk •
contribs)
See Circassian genocide#Genocide classification
In my opinion even though they only seem to not acknowledge as opposed to outright denying it, I would still include it as its similar to the US government and Amerindians. 24.44.73.34 ( talk) 18:13, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
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170.52.84.180 ( talk) 20:37, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
References
As discussion above dated 17 Feb 2022 has noted, the article is facing a lot of issues, from just lack of coverage, writing style, POV pushers, and the sheer impossibility of covering all genocide denial everywhere in the world. The "by governments" section is especially conspicuous - for god's sake it included a statement by China's foreign ministry on the US, which is about the most politically POV source you can get, and the China section is blanked because everyone knows it should be there, but nobody can decide what exactly should be under it (given the apparent "we can't describe the Uyghur genocide as a genocide but clearly atrocity denial is happening but the inclusion into the article necessarily implies it is a genocide" situation). Moreover, genocide denial by individuals or political groups is also significant (e.g. Holocaust revisionism in the US, denial of WWII crimes by Japanese conservative groups, denial of indigenous genocide (Feb 28 incident) by Taiwanese groups (but not government), denial of various colonial crimes in Europe, etc etc). In addition, choosing which nation or genocide to include is a task that either necessitates undue weight or creates a very, very, very long list. I'll try to make improvements as relevant to the article based on my knowledge, but I am fully aware this will only cause the section to give undue (though hopefully of a passable quality) coverage to the genocide denials that I am personally familiar with.
I did my best to clean up the effects section, but I feel that it is still relatively disorganised and a reader will not actually have an idea on what the effects of genocide denial are. Might revisit that at a later date.
This is a fairly important article and really should be given more attention. It is definitely not normal that, for example, the Chinese foreign ministry statement has stayed up for a full month and a half. I don't know which watchlists and projects this belongs to ("alternative views" is maybe a bit too broad for that), so if anyone does know please do notify the relevant people who might be interested in improving and maintaining this article.
Also:@ Magonz I note that you added the indigenous genocide article that you created to the see also section. Given that no other specific genocide is included, I am wondering if you have any special reason of adding that one. If not it is probably best to remove it for NPOV purposes.
Fermiboson ( talk) 00:37, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
ip address 204.102.230.60 removed the inclusion of Palestinian genocide denial. I believe this removal comes from a a biased perspective. Whether you believe of deny that the Nakba and current conflict is an act of genocide, it is relevant to this article as this alleged act of genocide is disputed by the Israeli government and Zionist movement. This is further explored in Palestinian_genocide_accusation The attempted exclusion of Palestinian genocide denial from this article is itself genocide denial denial. I ask that it be retained and that any dispute be discussed here rather than engaging in an edit war. 135.180.199.26 ( talk) 05:52, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
I believe this removal comes from a a biased perspectiveand
Wikipedia:UNDUE removal of this revision shows reflects bias and is ironically in itself an act of genocide denial.in your edit summary. This is, however, minor, so let's move past that onto the content question.
I think there should be some sort of distinction made in the page that the genocide denial being talked about only refers to genocides that there is actual evidence for, such as the Holocaust and the Uyghurs, and not stuff like the " white genocide" conspiracy theory. I think this is an especially important distinction to make as this page supports the argument that genocide denial is an indicator of an actual genocide occuring, or is a common part of the process of genocide. Currently, many politicians make baseless accusations of genocide as a rhetorical point (such as Putin claiming there was an anti-Russian genocide in Dombas, or claims that the removal of a confederate flag is "southern cultural genocide"), and it should be made clear that denial of those "genocides" are not in any way indicators of an actual genocide occuring. TypeKnight03 ( talk) 21:29, 13 February 2024 (UTC)