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M.D. Thesis

Could someone who has access to US and Canadian sources explain what sort of thesis or dissertation is required for a medical doctorate in North America? NRPanikker 16:43, 25 August 2007 (UTC) reply

A few medical schools in the U.S. require a thesis, the majority don't; it's medical school specific. However, overseas, e.g. in Germany, some kind of scientific dissertation is required for the "Doctor of Medicine" degree title pe se. A medical education in e.g. (many parts of) Europe is essentially equivalement to the educational process for a bachelor's degree in the U.S, whereas in the U.S., a medical degree involves education past a bachelor's degree. Andrew73 19:44, 25 August 2007 (UTC) reply
I would have said that the education is equivalent (bachelor v. US doctorate), but that in the US, a bachelor's degree is pre-requisite for medical training. This would be true for almost all US first professional doctorates, where the equivalent non-US training in law, dentistry, pharmacy etc. is a bachelor's degree. Things are changing slowly, with an increasing number of overseas dentistry and vet practioners using the title "Dr", as well as the introduction of some professional doctorates (e.g. PsyD). I'm also aware of some universities thinking of offering a shorter postgraduate medical education, in addition to the longer MBChB, however, I don't know if that will be a doctorate. -- Limegreen 21:33, 25 August 2007 (UTC) reply
It's probably worth noting, though, that bachelor's degrees in the UK tend to be more specialised than those in the USA. You start studying your chosen subject (or two subjects in the case of 'joint honours' degrees) from day one and while many universities or departments do have some limited scope for taking courses in other subjects for credit, generally the core of the degree programme is focused on one subject for the entire three years (or four in the case of the relatively new first master's degrees like the MMath, MPhys, etc). There isn't a requirement to study a range of elective courses in other subjects before choosing a 'major'.
I guess that when comparing the US MD and the UK MBChB, the crucial test is to ask whether there's any difference in knowledge and expertise by the time of graduation - and as far as I can tell, they're pretty analogous. The new postgraduate-entry fast-track MBChB programmes, which are restricted to people who already have a BSc in biology or biochemistry, are like the conventional undergraduate-entry ones, except that a year's worth of biology and biochemistry courses are skipped on the grounds that the students already know it.
You're right that there's been a recent, sneaking tendency in the UK for other medical-related practitioners to start adopting the courtesy title of 'Dr' - something that many of us with actual doctoral degrees regard with varying levels of suspicion. My dentist, despite being a Bachelor of Dental Surgery, is called 'Dr' (not, of course, that I'm inclined to argue the point when she's in the middle of poking at my teeth with scary bits of sharp metal). I guess the real test will be whether or not the lawyers (who over here are still LLBs or LLMs) eventually try it as well. -- Nicholas Jackson 00:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC) reply
I know that in the UK the accelerated medical programmes for graduates all lead to the same degrees as the mainstream courses, which would be MB ChB or MB BS (etc): this was necessary as there was at first some suspicion about the shortened courses. In the same way, in the US the shortened two year programmes for people with PhDs (in English Literature, or whatever) lead to an MD. NRPanikker 13:27, 28 August 2007 (UTC) reply
Hmm, I'm not quite sure I understand what you meant NRP. PhDs in America do not get shortened school terms for previous PhD degrees that I know of. Or did I entirely misunderstand you? tc. BruceD270 00:36, 7 October 2007 (UTC) reply
There is only one medical school in the US which requires a thesis for graduation: Yale University. There are several others where it is optional. Since the MD is a first professional degree, and is a practical, not research, degree, most US medical schools do not require a thesis at all. DrGaellon ( talk | contribs) 02:44, 7 October 2007 (UTC) reply

The UK medical education should adapt the bologna process as the Australian one did. It means that the medical curriculum should be at masters' level due to the ETCS (European Credit Transfer System) which normally takes at least 240 ETCS credits not just only 120- 180 ETCS as normal bachelors' degree. The British universities are trying to lobby their students by giving multiple degree at the same time of graduation such BSc/MBBS (bachelor of Sciences/ Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Surgery) so on and so far. However, it seems nonsense and useless to do so. It is supposed to follow the criteria of Bologna process and to give MD (Doctor of Medicine) degree to their graduates as most of European countries do. Logically, degree in medicine is considered strongly to be a professional degree which means that the degree identify their job as a skillful-designed person in the field. The UK system (MBBS or MBChB= bachelors' degree) tried to illuminate their graduates by giving courtesy title of "Dr." (seem to be more criticized by many other academic scholars in other majors that they should not be called Dr. if they have no word "doctor" in their degrees) to them in to make not to feel inferior than other who get MD degree (such most other European and the US graduates). To get a PhD in medicine does mean that those people are very outstanding in the field because it is just a philosophy not a real professional one, It is the specialist training or specialist registrar who will give them this achievement. If the adapttion is done, it is not so complicated to covert the name of their current MD degree (higher or first doctorate) to a Doctor of Medical Sciences (DMedSc or MedScD) in order to distinguish the professional and research doctorate

MD as a first degree

I remember reading a long time ago that American (and possibly Canadian) college students could apply to medical schools after a couple of years studying pre-medical subjects, without completing a BA or BS first. Is that still the case? Or has the level of competition for entry effectively raised the barrier and made the MD a postgraduate degree, as happened to the LLB (now JD)? NRPanikker 19:07, 27 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Pretty much; its not really possible for an American student to gain admissions w/o a four year BS or BA. Schools still reserve the right just in case they come by someone like the dali lama who might not meet the minimums but still wants in (i.e. its there but it never happens). Allgoodnamesalreadytaken 02:53, 28 August 2007 (UTC) reply

There are some combined BA/MD programs where you are accepted right out of high school. Andrew73 21:56, 28 August 2007 (UTC) reply
I wonder whether the effective requirement for a BA or BS before enrolling for an American MD equates academically to the French requirement for a baccalauréat or Bachelier ès Sciences degree on leaving the lycée followed by a year's premedical study at university, or even the English call for Advanced Level GCE passes. NRPanikker 03:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC) reply
Well, to me it seems that the BA requirement is more significant (by far) compared to either, though I admit I know much less about the French system. Allgoodnamesalreadytaken 20:58, 17 September 2007 (UTC) reply
To be really nitpicky, it's possible to gain admission to certain med schools (Brown) without a 4-year degree, but before you can matriculate you'll need to have completed your degree (that is, you can apply for a BS/MD right out of high school, but you have to complete the BS first). For all practical purposes, you're exactly right. Ante lan talk 19:37, 15 December 2007 (UTC) reply

MB in the USA

Currently the main MD article states that American medical schools used to give bachelor of medicine degrees, until they switched to giving doctorates. I remember hearing a long time ago that Dartmouth College could award a bachelor's degree to those who got half way through the medical course, but is the main assertion correct or just vandalism? NRPanikker 15:17, 5 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Vandalism? How could this assertion qualify as vandalism? User:Hopping T 16:02, 5 October 2007 (UTC) reply
  • "During the first years of the Harvard Medical School, students were granted an M.B. degree, the Bachelor of Medicine ...In 1811, Harvard began to confer the M.D. on all medical graduates that year." We are not talking about the MB being granted currently in the US. The MB is the traditional British medical degree and used to be conferred as the standard medical degree in the US (until the early 1800s). Hope that helps!

Jwri7474 17:10, 5 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Allopathic

I thought all that 'allopathic' business had been resolved months ago. If not, perhaps we should discuss it here. -- Nicholas Jackson ( talk) 07:42, 7 April 2008 (UTC) reply

I thought so too: see the discussion from last month See WhatamIdoing's comment below for the updated link. Antelan talk 11:41, 7 April 2008 (UTC) reply
Ah but a certain editor insists on being tendentious about this. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 00:45, 8 April 2008 (UTC) reply
The correct link is here. The discussion was archived. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 18:44, 8 April 2008 (UTC) reply
Oops, thanks. I've fixed my post. Antelan talk 20:41, 8 April 2008 (UTC) reply

Censor tag

There is currently a war in place over the addition of the censor tag to this talk page. I don't personally believe that it is needed for this page, however, rather than engage in an edit war, it would be better to discuss it here. DigitalC ( talk) 07:32, 8 April 2008 (UTC) reply

This use of the censor tag is the most asinine thing I've seen today. It's used on pages which may attract censoring of images (such as pictures of Mohamed or human nudity). Not a Intelligent-design-esq "the establishment is censoring our arguments". Jefffire ( talk) 08:45, 8 April 2008 (UTC) reply
Arguments? What arguments? Bryan Hopping T 13:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC) reply
If you look at WP:CENSOR, it's clear that "not censored" applies to graphic content which some might consider obscene or inappropriate. The examples cited are the articles on penis and pornography. In any content dispute, both sides typically feel that the other is "censoring" their arguments. That's not what WP:CENSOR is about. A censorship tag isn't appropriate to this particular page or dispute. Instead of edit-warring over the tag, why not set forth the dispute concisely and seek outside input? MastCell  Talk 15:49, 8 April 2008 (UTC) reply
Well then why won't someone block Hopping for edit warring and putting a dumbass 3RR warning on my user talk page for removing it? OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 20:44, 8 April 2008 (UTC) reply
Is it up to 4 yet? I sent my WP sttings to Ozzie times which confuses me sometimes...Cheers, Casliber ( talk · contribs) 21:26, 8 April 2008 (UTC) reply

MD or M.D.

The article seems to switch between the two. Being an aussie I don't use the term - should it always have the little dots? In any case, the article should stick to one. I'd do it myself but I can't decide which.....Cheers, Casliber ( talk · contribs) 14:28, 9 April 2008 (UTC) reply

I prefer LRU. Lord Ruler of the Universe. But that may just be me. Wikipedia:Manual of Style (abbreviations) says either is preferred. Which means there is no standard. But I would presume if this article was being copyedited, it should be consistent. I'd vote for MD, since it's easier to type. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 14:37, 9 April 2008 (UTC) reply
MD is fine by me, as well. Anyone want to stick up for poor old M.D.? Antelan talk 23:51, 9 April 2008 (UTC) reply
I'll race you to see how many M.D.'s can be changed to MD in the next 10 minutes.  :) OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 23:54, 9 April 2008 (UTC) reply
Oh you're on. If you beat me to it, I'll just revert you and then revert myself, claiming all the credit. Antelan talk 23:55, 9 April 2008 (UTC) reply
Damn. All that ctrl+f / del / paste, and you still beat me to it. All I got was a typo. Antelan talk 23:59, 9 April 2008 (UTC) reply
You see, the Macintosh is a superior computer for editing on Wikipedia. And all those years threading catheters in coronary arteries, has made my finger more dextrous for typing! OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 00:04, 10 April 2008 (UTC) reply
Uhoh. All this typing on Wikipedia is going to make my fingers arthritic, which will be something of a liability when I begin threading catheters in coronary arteries. Antelan talk 00:14, 10 April 2008 (UTC) reply
Don't worry. The fluoroscopy will kill you first. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 01:03, 10 April 2008 (UTC) reply

Scope of Practice

A brief mention of scope of practice would be appropriate near the top of the article. Practice demographics might also be handy to make the article more robust. Thoughts? CorticoSpinal ( talk) 18:11, 13 April 2008 (UTC) reply

Status as higher doctorate

This page from Cambridge, Higher Doctorates, lists Law, Science, Letters, Music, and Divinity as higher doctorates. This page, Doctor of Medicine Prizes, states that the degree is 'given to medically qualified graduates who submit a dissertation on an approved new area of research'. The page, Doctor of Medicine (DM), from Oxford states that, 'The DM degree is awarded on the basis of a thesis (or, for senior staff only, published work) on a medical subject previously approved by the Divisional Board.' Looking beyond Oxbridge, at UCL the MD degree is awarded on the basis of a 60,000-word thesis, has a supervisor, is completed over a recommended time period, and incurs tuition fees equal to those for an MPhil or PhD. Interestingly, it seems to be the only higher doctorate for which UCL has designed new academic dress.

These requirements seem very different to those for other higher doctorates, which are awarded exclusively on the basis of a body of published work and may represent the culmination of a life's work. In the case of Paul S. Fiddes, for example, the degree of Doctor of Divinity was conferred two years after he was appointed Professor of Systematic Theology, by which time he had written nine books. Rowan Williams became a DD three years after being appointed to the university's second most prestigious chair in Divinity, two years after the first edition of his masterpiece Arius: heresy and tradition and just one year before his election as a Fellow of the British Academy. G. E. M. de Ste. Croix became an FBA in 1972 but did not submit his work for the degree of DLitt until 1975. It seems that the degree of Doctor of Medicine can be obtained on the basis of a far less distinguished academic record than the other higher doctorates in divinity, laws, civil law, letters, literature, and science, and possibly music (which may be awarded on the basis of composition, which is not easily compared with a body of scholarship). It appears that it may even be awarded for a thesis of the same length as that submitted for the degrees of MLitt or MPhil. At Oxford there also seems to be the difference that one registers as a Student for the Degree of DM, whereas any other higher doctorate is awarded on the basis of work carried out in the course of one's career; nobody is ever a Student for the Degree of DLitt.-- Oxonian2006 ( talk) 16:41, 11 May 2008 (UTC) reply

In Great Britain, Ireland and countries influenced by them there are two doctorates in medical science, Doctor of Medicine (MD or DM) which can be obtained early in an academic or clinical career and Doctor of Science (DSc or ScD) which requires a whole programme of published research. The latter degree requires more than just a few papers from one project, and is usually obtained by career scientists (whether medically qualified or not) of at least Senior Lecturer or Senior Research Fellow rank. Since PhDs were introduced to Britain early in the 20th century, the DSc has become elevated in status and now resembles a German Habilitation, except that it is not necessary to have another doctorate such as a PhD or MD first before becoming a "Doctor Habiltatus." However, there is no need to have a DSc to become a Professor, so most British academics don't bother to get one. Very few go to the other extreme and get MD, PhD and DSc.

Doctorates in Medicine, Law and Divinity are much older than the others: for a long period the DD and LLD were normally given as honorary degrees to senior clergymen and judges, and the LLD was also given to non-lawyers, such as Samuel Johnson and continues to be used in that way. The DD is still given to senior clergymen in that way (e.g. Ian Paisley’s DD from Bob Jones University) but it is also available after three years or so of research in the Scottish universities, as well as by published work. The MD was different, in that it was possible, before regular curricula were introduced in the 19th century, to study at a variety of locations (in Britain and Europe) and then take the degree (in Latin) wherever it was most convenient to do so: which could mean wherever it was easiest. Aberdeen and St Andrews Universities were notorious for awarding the MD by post on the basis of a dissertation plus testimonials, and a few undeserving candidates got through, but apart from that it was rarely given on an honorary basis.

The precise significance of the MD has changed over the past 150 years. When the Scottish universities replaced it by the MB and CM degrees at the end of the medical course, the thesis at first remained part of the MB and there was no further examination in medicine for the few who went on to an MD: instead there was a requirement for study in classics, since it was no longer necessary to be examined in Latin or to produce a dissertation in that language for the MB. The claim was that a new MB had a complete knowledge of medicine and was not to be regarded as a lesser clinician than an MD. That attitude did not last, and later on the thesis was transferred to the MD, and there was also a clinical examination for the MD (and also for the similar ChM introduced later for surgery). The research element grew over the years, and most British universities abolished MD clinical examinations in the 1940s, while retaining the oral examination on the thesis. The remaining exceptions are in surgery, where Oxford and Cambridge retain a Part One examination before the thesis for the MCh and MChir, and Liverpool, which introduced specialised degrees in orthopaedic and ENT surgery.

Indian medical colleges have taken the postgraduate MD the other way, by setting up three year courses for the MD or MS in general medicine, general surgery, obstetrics & gynaecology, pathology, etc, and more recently higher doctorates (DM or MCh) in subspecialties. These involve examinations as well as a research project. Sri Lanka has followed this model of the MD. A number of Asian and Middle Eastern countries have instead set up Master of Medicine (MMed) degrees to follow the MB BS (etc) at this level.

Many Commonwealth countries instead have free-standing Colleges of Physicians (or Surgeons, etc) or Academies of Medicine, who hold specialty examinations for a Membership or Fellowship qualification. This follows the other strand of British postgraduate medical training, which the US deliberately did not follow, to avoid the elitism with which the Royal College of Physicians of London was formerly reproached. There was about a century of rivalry and sometimes hostility between the Harley Street consultants who ran the Royal Colleges and the academics who awarded the degrees, but the two groups have to some extent merged and research is creeping into the college examinations too. For example, Membership of the Royal College of Physicians of Ireland can be obtained either by passing written and clinical examinations, or by submitting published research: currently their website asks for 15 to 20 principal-author publications in peer-reviewed journals. The US equivalent to these membership and fellowship examinations is Board certification by a member organisation of the American Board of Medical Specialties, which is more necessary for a medical trainee than any higher degree. NRPanikker ( talk) 21:17, 11 May 2008 (UTC) reply

Looking back at the above, I realise that in fact there are three doctorates in medical science in the British system, as is implicit in the mention of the PhD. A PhD or DPhil can be done on a purely clinical topic: it is not just a matter of laboratory/library research as in the USA. As it is the newest of the three doctorates, there used to be some snobbery about the choice of degree, and young researchers could at one time be urged to submit their work for an MD instead, as "no gentleman has a PhD," but I have not heard that for a long time, and it is normal for someone who has undertaken intensive formally supervised research at the start of their career to expect a PhD. The rules for the MD are looser, there used to be much less supervision, or none (as with the higher doctorates) and it could be obtained at any stage in a career: but only by a medical graduate. NRPanikker ( talk) 14:56, 23 May 2008 (UTC) reply

Rewrite the section "equivalent degrees in other countries"

This entire section is too North American centric in its viewpoint and does not really fall in line with Wiki's neutral world view policy. Why can't we simply create a simple point list of basic entry level equivalent medical qualifications from around the world that (in each country entitles one to practice medicine). Ex:

  • MD, MDCM (US, Canada, Germany)
  • MBBS, MB, MBChB, BMed, BMBS, BMBCh (UK + Commonwealth)
  • MuDr (Czec)
  • Titlo (Mexico)

etc etc etc

The section has the feeling like every other degree is being compared to the North American MD (as if its a gold standard or something). 1) Not everyone wants to work in the United States. 2) No where is it written that the American medical education is the "gold standard". Lets be a little more diplomatic and neutral with our article here. Thanks (anyone want to start the rewrite?) Jwri7474 ( talk) 13:11, 24 September 2009 (UTC) reply

I completely agree. This article is utterly US-centric and is written as though other countries' medical degrees are follow-ons and afterthoughts. It seriously needs re-writing. Can somebody please mark it as ethnocentric? I don't know how Arctic hobo ( talk) 02:00, 11 October 2009 (UTC) reply

While this page is fairly US-centric, I would contend that this is reasonable, as the title of the page is "Doctor of Medicine". The title "Doctor of Medicine" seems to suggest MD. In contrast, if the page was called "Medical Doctor", I would agree completely with your contention. I'm not sure if it's appropriate to include too much information about the other types of medical doctors. I would suggest that we move some of this information to the "Medical Doctor" (which redirects to physician) page, and include it under some type of heading such as Medical Degrees by Country. This way, it wouldn't be framed as "equivalent degrees" (which presumes that the US degree is the standard), but rather, as "types of medical degrees". Do any of you have thoughts on this? Wjdittmar ( talk) 21:42, 28 April 2012 (UTC) reply

Hi, i'm an italian "Dottore in medicina e chirurgia", the sentence about Italy in "equivalent degrees in other countries" contains some mistakes. We can use the title Dott. or Dr. right after the discussion of our thesis (dissertaion) even though we are allowed to work as physician only after the "Esame di Stato", equivalent in Italy for habilitation. It is also wrong to say that we must sign to a school of specialization, because it is strongly reccomended but not mandatory. I'm writing here instead of modifying the article because my english is not perfect. In my opinion there should be no difference between "Academic degrees for physicians by country" and "equivalent degrees in other countries", i fink it's redundant and confusing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.65.245.159 ( talk) 08:23, 17 October 2012 (UTC) reply

m.d.

what is a m.d. and what does m.d. stand for? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.219.168.152 ( talk) 19:03, 27 April 2011 (UTC) reply


regarding south korea

the oriental degree in south korea is not a m.d. degree

it never was and never will be

its a degree focused on learning about acupuncture and herbs based on ancient chinese psuedoscience which has nothing to with science and with some papers thrown in about acutal science

someone who graduates from this oriental psuedoscience sit a completely different qualification national exam as a real m.d.

every Korean knows this please fix it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.216.172.38 ( talk) 04:57, 17 October 2013 (UTC) reply

External links modified

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There's nothing obviously wrong with the edit by the bot - the archive links it added do work and display topical content once at now-dead links. BUT, that source content does NOT really verify the article content. I.e. no mention of main topics of the article content that uses the sources - the NIH or Nobel Laureates on the first page, or a (Título de Médico) on the second. So {{fv}} tags seem apropos. Agreed?-- Elvey( t• c) 18:18, 17 November 2015 (UTC) reply

Advertising and license verification

Should there be a section (or spread out content) on advertising and license verification? What if anything makes it illegal (e.g. in the US, Israel and Russia) to advertise claiming to be a medical doctor or D.O. (and, e.g. claiming to be able to eliminate [all] disease including colon cancer) without appropriate licensing? Who enforces it? in essence, what's the equivalent of http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/business-and-professions-code/bpc-sect-4980.html for regular medical doctors? Apropos this, [1]. -- Elvey( t• c) 17:58, 17 November 2015 (UTC) reply

I'm assuming you mean a Doctor of Medicine (M.D.) when you say medical doctor...anyway, such a discussion of holding physicians accountable for false/misleading advertising or for outright breaking the law would be better suited on the physician page, IMO. TylerDurden8823 ( talk) 08:37, 22 November 2015 (UTC) reply
agree-- Ozzie10aaaa ( talk) 10:26, 22 November 2015 (UTC) reply
Does this pertain to a Wikipedia edit? Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 19:52, 22 November 2015 (UTC) reply

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text WRT DO degree

This text:

>>>The Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (DO) degree, which is awarded by osteopathic medical schools, is the only professional equivalent to the MD degree in the United States and Canada. [1] Osteopathic medical schools are accredited by the Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation (COCA), an independent body sponsored by the American Osteopathic Association (AOA). The sole difference between the MD and the DO degrees is the additional musculoskeletal training in osteopathic manipulative treatment (OMT).<<<


has been reverted, supposedly because it was unsourced or off-topic. Please explain why information about the DO degree is not relevant to this article. DiverDave ( talk) 15:17, 8 December 2016 (UTC) reply

Yes, I had reverted the moving of that material to further up to near the top of a section. I hadn't removed it. Some of the other material that was added by other editors before and after yours was was unsourced or off-topic and that was what had caught my eye. There is a lot of unsourced material in this article, and a lot of people adding material that is on the broader topic of medical school rather than to the specific degree that is the of Doctor of Medicine. I had tried to clear some of the unsourced/off-topic material back in April but the article is already in such a mess. There are some legitimate comparisons to be made between MD and other degrees and this page already has a link at the top of the section to the article comparing MD and DO degrees. I didn't think that increasing the prominence of osteopathic degrees was an improvement to an article about a different degree. Drchriswilliams ( talk) 16:26, 8 December 2016 (UTC) reply

References

  1. ^ "International Practice Rights Map". American Osteopathic Association. Retrieved 22 May 2013.

Russia and Ukraine

The article goes to state that: "In Russia, medical Universities in Russia offer a 6-year curriculum leading to award Doctor of Medicine (MD) "Physician".". That's wrong. There no title like "Doctor of medicine" in Russia. There is a research degree of the Doctor of medical sciences which is the second research degree after the Candidate of medical sciences. Few practicing physicians in Russia hold such a degree. After medical university course, including some clinical practice, a graduate is awarded the professional title "Vrach" ( Russian: врач) which can be translated as "physician" (in the broader sense, i.e. it includes surgeons). Perhaps, the confusion arises because physicians/surgeons are colloquially adressed in Russia as "doctors", which does not reflect their official titles and is likely to be a vestige of the medical education and titling system of the Russian Empire. As to the Ukraine, I'm not sure, but in my opinion, it should be checked out whether ukrainian physicians really receive the title "Doctor of Medicine" just upon university graduation. Эйхер ( talk) 17:06, 12 December 2016 (UTC) reply

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Move discussion in progress

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Reverting unreadable anonymous article edits

As I looked at this article, the introduction was very messy and difficult to read. Among wordy sentences that said very little and/or were grammatically incomplete, I could discern this questionable claim: there is consensus that people with MD degrees should not be given the title "Dr." before their names. The paragraph refers to the Department of Education classification of the degree, but does not cite it. I did not read the entirety of the source that is cited [2], but searching it for any information regarding the Department of Education, debates, doctors, MDs, and a variety of other terms did not return any results even closely related to the claim in this article. I find no evidence of "Department of Education, historical application, and general international consensus" withholding the title of "Doctor" from physicians holding MD degrees. The highly questionable claim as well as the general messiness of the paragraph appear to be the result of anonymous edits made on December 14, 2018, by an IP address which has only made 9 edits total, 7 of which were within half an hour. Because of the untrustworthiness of the information, I am simply reverting these edits. If any grammatical errors remain in the reverted version, I will clean those up. Jojopeanut ( talk) 20:25, 25 December 2018 (UTC) reply

History Section

The history section starts off with someone being awarded an MD at Glasgow in 1703. That was not the first MD in the world, or Great Britain, or even in Scotland.

It goes on to explain why medical schools in the British Isles and Commonwealth give MB ChB (or similar) degrees instead of the MD. This is lifted from the Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Surgery article and appears to be an inaccurate precis of my talk page entry of 2008 on "Why are there two two degrees?" Two issues are being conflated here. Early in the 19th century (I have no details at hand) the UK parliament laid down that ships' doctors and those employed in prisons and by the Poor Law authorities had to be qualified in both medicine and surgery. At that time Scottish medical graduates had an MD. There were very few medical graduates from Oxford and Cambridge: most English doctors had diplomas from both the Royal College of Surgeons and the Worshipful Society of Apothecaries in London. The Army Board was persuaded that Scottish MDs were qualified in both medicine and surgery, as both subjects were taught and examined for the degree, but English employers continued to discriminate against Scottish MD holders. As substantial numbers of Scottish graduates were actually from England and intended to return there, there was strong market pressure for a switch from one degree to two, even though there was still only one diploma. So it was not parliament or the General Medical Council which enforced the switch from MD to MB CM and later MB ChB. The change from MD to MB was a separate issue. NRPanikker ( talk) 14:48, 22 February 2019 (UTC) reply

Picture of Claude Bernard's diploma

I have removed the anonymous contributor's claim that Claude Bernard's "Doctorat en Médecine" was a Ph.D. The title page displayed says nothing about philosophy. His MD thesis may have been of the standard that could have got him a PhD elsewhere at that time, but that was not what the French system gave him. NRPanikker ( talk) 13:55, 1 July 2019 (UTC) reply

Doctors in Japan

I am just curious as to the reason the country of Japan is not included in the list of countries that describe doctoral/medical education. If it's merely because nobody's added it, I happily will. But that's the only legitimate reason it's not included. Japan isn't a third-world country and the scientific, technical and medical communities in Japan are respected world-wide by other doctors and scientists. So I was surprised to see, for instance Georgia and several third-world South American countries included in this list, but not Japan. I'm not ranting or anything. I'm just curious. I'd be happy to add the information myself if it's an issue of not being able to find references or simply forgetting, but don't want to "step on anyone's toes" if they are currently planning on or indeed actually writing such a section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sdshepherdx ( talk • contribs) 00:37, 23 March 2020 (UTC) reply

ERC Position (under "Germany")

The sentence:

"The European Research Council ruled in 2010 that a medical doctorate alone is not considered equivalent to a PhD research degree for the purpose of selection for ERC Starting Grants, requiring additional evidence (e.g., proof of an appointment that requires doctoral equivalency, such as a post-doctoral fellowship) for the overall training to be considered equivalent to a PhD."

should either be moved to the introduction, or some other suitable general section, or be deleted, as it has nothing specific about Germany in the source.

Do I handed under retransmission a

fdh — Preceding unsigned comment added by 42.111.38.228 ( talk) 11:33, 3 January 2022 (UTC) reply

anemul

a — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.67.156.19 ( talk) 11:45, 11 January 2023 (UTC) reply

Wiki Education assignment: English 102 Section 6

This article is currently the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 9 January 2024 and 3 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jahmyahill47 ( article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Jahmyahill47 ( talk) 20:31, 5 February 2024 (UTC) reply

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