This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Reasons:

1. "Introduction" should be merged with the actual introduction
2. Three images shouldn't be stacked in such a way - causing the layout to be unpleasant
3. Captions of pictures should be of matching quality as of the first picture
4. "The city is a barbie doll human habitat that allows people to form relations with others at various levels of intimacy while remaining entirely anonymous." (This definition was the subject of an exhibition at the Israeli pavilion at the 2000 Venice Biennale of architecture) The "definition" should be either inline citationed or reworded, but that's dire
5. "The difference between towns and cities" should appear later in the article, not the first paragraph for readers because it is not the most important subject of the article
6. Incorporate "Inner city" section with all American information, as well as mentioning "Edge Cities"
7. Delete large section of "See also", most is covered/made inferior by the category box at the bottom of the article
8. Completely expand and revamp "References"
9. Synthesize "External Links", some links are useless, Eg - A forum where one can participate with other forumers using stats, images and general debate to rate and compare cities in a civilised fashion. while others need names cleaned up to be of any use to the reader Eg - For each country, part of its population that lives in its most populous city

This article is a good start, but has a long way to go.. Highway 22:42, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

What does this mean? "A city can also be defined as an absence of physical space between people and firms."

AThousandYoung 23:02, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

A firm is a company. 75.172.38.26 21:21, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I have added a picture of the very well known city of Sabadell (next to Barcelona, in Catalonia, Spain). I think it's good to show both faces of what we understand as city: by one side, the cold and inhuman face of city shown in the great cities of the United States, Canada, and some of the big cities of Europe, and Asia, etc. By the other side, I think it's good to show an image of a normal city, a warm and cool city. The face of the technology and the modernity and the face of the tradition and the cultural and social factor that a city plays to put together their citizens.

Onofre Bouvila 22:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Alston says this type of thing shouldn't be here, it should be in Wiktionary? Is this correct? It's very good though ;)

I've decided to redirect "City" to "Central Business District", because the latter word is the proper definition of the area.

(from JustAnyone) I thought it would be good to have a set of information about a city that includes how things work.

I'm surprised that in a list such as list of cities in Oklahoma it seems that any place in the US with a population of more than 1,000 is a city; anything less is a town. In the UK somewhere with only 1,000 people would be called a village. Is this nomenclature correct? Shantavira 18:26, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

What's up with the link to the toki pona 'pedia at the bottom of the page? It doesn't seem to be working too well...who is running that 'pedia anyways? — Braaropolis | Talk 05:11, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

Not sure of the details, but according to recent mailing list discussion toki pona is now being treated as a lesser pedia than others. Klingon is also in this "lesser" category. "Proper" wikipedias are not to link to these "lesser" ones. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 12:05, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps a merger or disambiguation or alternative use is in order, see the City and The_City_(book_by_Maximilian_Weber). -- Piotrus 10:11, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I've made The City a disambiguation page, and added appropiate see alsos to this page. I think everyone should be able to find what they are looking for with this set-up. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 12:05, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I removed the text below from the opening of the article. I honestly don't understand what it means or what it refers to. older≠ wiser 13:01, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Definition of City: A fixed place of human habitation that allows people to form relations with others at various level of intimacy, while remaining entirely anonymous. (Presented at the Israeli pavillion at the 7th Venice Biennale. Exhibition curated by Architect Hillel Schocken)

The fact that you don't understand something does not mean it is not worthwhile for you to search. Look up http://www.intbau.org/essay5.htm and you might find some sense in that definition.

Hillel Schocken

"I removed the text below from the opening of the article. I honestly don't understand what it means or what it refers to. older≠wiser 13:01, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Definition of City: A fixed place of human habitation that allows people to form relations with others at various level of intimacy, while remaining entirely anonymous. (Presented at the Israeli pavillion at the 7th Venice Biennale. Exhibition curated by Architect Hillel Schocken)"

I always felt that there was some similarity between how Americans use "city" and how the King James Version of the Bible uses it - may there be a connection?-- PeterR 23:11, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

The "Modern Conceptions" section is not entirely credible. Who is taking this approach? Is this how most people conceive of cities, or is it a theory developed and held by a few academics? The entire section is written in the passive voice, and that's the lazy way to try to be authoritative without actually citing any authorities. More fundamentally, does this particular theory of urban function/development belong in the "Cities" article, or does it deserve its own article (i.e., "The x Theory of Urban Function")? LaurenceJA 01:54, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I have been bold and removed the entire section. It was:

• unencyclopedic
• POV
• unreferenced
• vague

However, I don't want to discourage the author, and I would like to thank them for contributing their time and energy to the article. Wikipedia tolerates unreferenced claims but generally the more academic, abstract or controversial the topic becomes, the more important it is for the contribution to be verifiable against sources.

Ben Arnold 23:55, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I removed the Indian cities from the list of "global cities". They're very big cities but, frankly, they don't fit the description given. They're all recognisably Indian. I also removed KL. It just doesn't fit the bill either. I'm not that convinced by the cities listed as it is but I don't want to tread on toes by removing those whose claim is rather spurious. Is Seoul really a "global city" though? J'burg? Toronto!? Is Toronto more closely part of the global network of big cities than it is part of Canada? Not sure about that. Philip Arthur 03:43, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Isn't the (maybe old) definition of city a town with a cathedral?

Yes, that was one definition, now obsolete. A city, by its etymology, is any "group of citizens" and hence any place where such a group settles. The nuanced distinction between "city" and "town" are relatively recent in origin. Of note, the most likely decent of this word comes from words implying a settlement with a fortification or defensive works, so a distinction between a "city" and either a "hamlet" or a "village" would be more valid. Just my opinion, though.

Also my opinion, English is a living language and attempts (like those running rampant on this talk page) to cement a single, eternal, adamantine meaning to a word are follies. People in Hoboken talk of a trip into the city, as do my family in southern Kansas. The first are referring to New York City, the second are speaking of Cedar Vale. Both groups understand the word in context. An encyclopaedic article can be written which encompasses both. Kevin/Last1in 20:23, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I beg to differ. In the UK there are still towns that are defined as cities by virtue of their having a cathedral (i.e. being the seat of a bishop). The City of Lichfield is one such. As the article makes clear some languages do not differentiate, but others do. In the US apparently the need for this distinction has disappeared, whereas in the UK it persists. May I also point out the etymologically speaking a metropolis is the seat of a metropolitan - still the title of a bishop in the Eastern Church ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Augusta2 ( talk • contribs) 01:21, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Don't understand why this article should open with a photo of Montreal. Could somebody place it better or remove it? Thanks. Cribananda 22:16, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Becuase it is a good example of a modern, large and post industrial city relevant to the conext of todays history as an example, and as a visual representation of the article Bmgoau 06:12, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

It's atleast better placed now. That's fine. Cribananda 05:33, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

What is the nonsensical rubbish about what Americans think "city" means supposed to be all about? "Greater Los Angeles" certainly includes other cities and villages than LA, but the city of LA has over 3 million people, Greater LA, which has no legal status, has like 12 million. If Greater Birmingham has 2M, fine, but to say that if Birmingham, England were in the US, it would have over 2M ppl is -- nonsense. Who writes this crap? Tom e r ^talk 15:14, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree and removed that part about LA's population. Population of the actual city(that is, within city limits) is actually 3 million, not 1M.-- Chicbicyclist 08:01, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

While they does not have proper legal or geographical status, "greater cities" do have some individual status, like the Metropolitan Police of London for example, it serves the Greater London area. And what about private organisations, like the YMCA, which has at least it's Seattle chapter as "YMCA of Greater Seattle", which includes Seattle and it's neighboring towns and villages. And the 'Kreisstadten' of Germany, which are like geographical Big Brothers to each other if one of them is larger. Oh, that was tiring.- Uagehry456| Talk _{Jordanhill Vote} 06:54, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

MY DEFINITIONS

Settlement- less than 100 people

Village- at least 100

Town- at least 1,000

City- at least 20,000

Metropolis- at least 100,000

• Sounds like somebody's been playing SimCity! - Uagehry456| Talk _{Jordanhill Vote} 07:01, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

This article needs info on rent levels, which are simultaneously crucial in determining how a city develops and determined by the development. -- Espoo 13:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

As you see on these two stats, Stockholm count way more more area size than Copenhagen. And Copenhagen only need to add like 300 m2, to be bigger populated.

Stockholm:

• Population City: 765 044, 4091 inhabitants/km2, Area Size: 187 km2
• Population Urban Area: 1 212 196, 3230 inhabitants/km2, Area Size: 375 km2
• Population Metro Area: 1 872 900, 289 inhabitants/km2 Area Size: 6 490 km2

Copenhagen:

• Population City: 502 362, 5709 inhabitants/km2, Area Size: 88 km2
• Population Urban Area: 1 085 813. ?? inhabitants/km2, ?? Area Size:
• Population Metro Area: 1 827 239, 638 inhabitants/km2, Area Size: 2 862 km2

So witch city is biggest?

-- 194.255.124.250 23:01, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, you usually figure out which city is larger in population by comparing the city population, in this case, Sweden is the winner! - Uagehry456| Talk _{Jordanhill Vote} 07:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Um, th-that's Stockholm, by the way. - Uagehry456| Talk _{Jordanhill Vote} 07:07, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

What about something I heard (perhaps apocryphal?) that a European city can only be defined as such if it contains a cathedral? Thus, Vinci is a city as despite its tiny population and size, it contains a cathedral, and so forth. I'd be grateful for clarification.

I think (keyword: "think") that small towns with cathedrals can't be cities because the cathedrals were probably only there because of their importance in history, rather than a town of significant size. Just take the small (former) town of Cascades, Washington (state) for example. It was not important because of it's size, but because of the amount of trade between the Eastern and Western parts of the state that took place there. I used that example just because I live here, by the way. - Uagehry456| Talk _{Jordanhill Vote} 07:18, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I got the same definition from my high school english teacher. A city had a cathedral otherwise it was a a town. And if it's very large, it's just a very large town. The prerequicite is a cathedral. However, some rather small "towns" have cathedrals, such as Ribe and Haderslev, defining them (in my book) as cities.-- Nwinther ( talk) 21:06, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Are there any lists of cities by prominent geographical feature (coast, lake shore, island, peninsula, river(s), etc)? fiberglassdolphin 20:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

No, but the closest I can get, though, is this:

• List of cities by surface area
• List of cities by latitude
• List of cities by longitude

Farther off but still helpful:

• Geography of present-day nations and states

Good luck! - Uagehry456| Talk _{Jordanhill Vote} 07:37, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I notice both photos illustrating that article show cities from the USA. Is that normal? I think there should also be a slight diversification in the nature of the pictures: why should only towns with skyscrapers figure? I know plenty of "cities" (very important ones too) that don't have skyscrapers: London, Paris... No, definitely, the two photos show a slight bias in favour of the US. Daniel Montin 17:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I have never seen any scientific evidence suggesting that tornados evade urban areas because of the presence of a heat island. In fact, tornados have done considerably damage to urban areas. Also, I do not believe a heat island leads to cloudier or windier weather (with the exception of urban areas with very tall buildings in which a funneling effect occurs). However, it may be that higher pollution levels in urban areas lead to haze which give a city sky a grayer appearance than rural areas.

These comments need to be substantiated by scientific references or they should be removed.

On the other hand, urban heat islands lead to extended growing seasons since they keep night time temperatures warmer than surrounding areas. Also, they have been known to trigger the formation of thunder storms during summer in some areas of the world. I'll add that in if I find some sources.

-- Dba5 21:36, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Why did this article fail GA nomination? How long ago was it? It looks to be in pretty good shape to me. Would it be worth renominating? -- Selket ^Talk 23:38, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Good NYC picture. New Yorkers like me appreciate that. :) SKREAM 00:22, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

In the Ancient times section it says 2500 ya, which is obviously some kind of measurement. Clicking on "ya" leads to a disambiguation page which has absolutely no reference to this use of ya. Unless they measured the city in arrow lengths (which would be very subjective), this is not a very obvious term. Years ago, Yards across, what does it mean?-- WPaulB 14:32, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Ya! That's surprising. Well, it's gone now, but I'll still respond. I like answering already answered questions. - Uagehry456| Talk _{Jordanhill Vote} 07:42, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Where was it already answered on the City or it's talk page?-- WPaulB 15:27, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

It's just removed, not really answered, sorry. - Uagehry456| Talk _{Jordanhill Vote} 00:25, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

It means years ago I believe most of the time, especially in this context. AThousandYoung 23:01, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I think someone should not the reason cities are incorporated to begin with since that comes up so often. I, however, don't have the answer to that question. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.228.133.99 ( talk) 21:00, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

The map "Cities with at least a million inhabitants in 2006" is completely incorrect. In Germany for instance, ther're just 3 cities with more than 1 mio. inhabitants, whats about dubai & abu dhabi in VAE? The cities in Iran are at the wrong place... we have to delete this map from this page. -- Englishazadipedia ( talk) 21:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, this map is completely rediculous; there are only 9 cities in the United States with more than 1 million inhabitants and yet, this map suggests that there are 40. I am going to go ahead and remove it, if not for its inaccuracy, then for its misleading caption. I could understand if this map displayed all of the cities over say, 500k so inhabitants, but it is not mentioned on the image's page or its discussion page. If someone knows what it actually represents, feel free to put it up with the correct caption. Snagglepuss ( talk) 04:50, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe it uses the population of cities' metropolitan areas, and not the official city populations. While this is a more objective criteria - the definition of what constitutes a "city" varies widely throughout the world (some places it's the dense core of a city area, sometimes it's the entire thing) - it may constitute original research. -- Aqwis ( talk – contributions) 10:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

This section is quite bad. Contrary to the opening text, archaeologists actually have considerable evidence about the birth and growth of the earliest cities. The "cities or agriculture first" section is a lot of hot air without any evidence. Again, archaeologists have LOTS of evidence, from around the world, about this (agriculture comes first, so why waste time on Jane Jacob's data-empty speculations?). If I find time I may try to fix this up. The section on the size of cities is very western-centric. Michael E. Smith ( talk) 02:12, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

This definition doesn't tell us anything.

"A city is generally an urban settlement with a large population..."

The problem I have with this definition is that 1) "urban" is a adjectival form of a synonym for "city", and "large" is a relative term. Is 1,000 people "large"? Or is 1,000,000 people "large"? If "large" cannot get us with three orders of magnitude, it's worthless.

I am adding the phrase "requiring the importation of resources". I can provide citations for Jared Diamond, Derrick Jensen, Paul Erlich all include this as part of their definition. I believe the truth of this is non-controversial, and also is an important component to the definition. -- Bill Huston ^(talk) 01:17, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

It's probably better to define it as 'a settlement that is usually larger than a town or village' or similar. -- Aqwis ( talk – contributions) 09:32, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

This is a nice addition. I've just changed it. -- Bill Huston ^(talk) 14:54, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The whole article needs a thorough rewrite. At present it wanders, it is repetitive, overblown with padding and wording that makes it read like a paperback pot-boiler. As an example: What about "craftsman that develop in New Obsidian make"? Should it be "men"/ developed/made? or have a "the" and "age" or "culture"? But really what is it to do with City? Strikes me that overlong WP articles with masses of definition argument on their talk pages rarely get as far as the first "e" of "encyclopedic". I assume good faith but I do not subscribe to their religion.-- SilasW ( talk) 16:10, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

A city is bigger than a town, a town is bigger than a village, a village is bigger than a hamlet, a hamlet is bigger than a house and a house is bigger than a brick toilet.13 August 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.66.47 ( talk) 10:20, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

cities attract business people. How do cities provides the right business environment? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.13.249.37 ( talk) 09:21, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

This section is incredibly bad. I don't have time to fix it now, but maybe I can get to it later. The statement that there is insufficient evidence to understand the birth of cities is nonsense - there are LOTS of archaeological data. Jane Jacob's ideas that cities preceded agriculture are completely erroneous - there are hundreds of well-published excavations from all over the world that show this is not at all the case. The section on "why do cities form" is a speculative fringe view, unsupported by data (and there are LOTS of data). Michael E. Smith ( talk) 16:59, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

The article on “ city ” gives technical definitions for the US and Canada, but for Australia gives the common understanding of the term. Is this because the US and Canada only use the word “ city ” in a technical/political sense, much as “ state ” is only used in a technical/political sense ? In other words, would someone not talk about an urban settlement in Pennsylvania as a city simply because it needs to receive the charter, and would peope not refer to Hempstead (with 750 000 people) as a city simply because of its political status ? Or is the article simply inconsistent in the way it talks about these matters ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cassowary ( talk • contribs) 24 June 2008

As a casual passerby, I find it a bit weird that the article states that there is debate about wheter or not cities have become "obsolete" by the arrival of the internet. I know that it's a referenced statement so I won't argue that it's a POV that shouldn't be mentioned, but I would argue that it's such a minority opinion that it doesn't belong in the intro.

I am skeptical of the decision to have the obsolescence of the city as a debate in the lead. Certainly it is a major debate about cities, but I am skeptical that it is so much more important than any other debate about cities as to be worth mentioning in the lead - indeed, the debate seems to me several years old, given the recent change such that over 50% of the world population lives in cities, an equally major debate to my mind has been on the new centrality of cities.

Certainly the "are cities obsolete" theories are important, but I do not think they're lead-worthy. Phil Sandifer ( talk) 00:11, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Someone please verify why Tel Aviv was part of that list. What are its qualifications that make it fit for the sub-article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.219.190.20 ( talk) 21:33, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Does anyone object to me setting up automatic archiving for this page using MiszaBot? Unless otherwise agreed, I would set it to archive threads that have been inactive for 30 days and keep the last ten threads.-- Oneiros ( talk) 21:23, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

 Done-- Oneiros ( talk) 21:06, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I took out the following sentance because i am quite sure that this is not true, because several cities, for example in China had populations of about 1 million.

But if i am wrong correct me...

"It is estimated that ancient Rome had a population of around 1 million people by the end of the last century BCE, which is widely considered the only city to reach that number until the Industrial Revolution. "

NEEDS VERIFICATION

This statement is definitely wrong, in ancient China, lots of cities had population over 500,000.And several cities like Chang'an in Tang Dynasty, had population over 1M when at its peak of development. Do not always stay in your own world while thinking about the history of the whole world!!! -- unsigned comments

We now have the List of largest cities throughout history, with references. -- Beland ( talk) 06:25, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

To show how different cities can be, the article needs a picture of a city in the Third World. I'm thinking of a city in sub-Saharan Africa with 1-5 million inhabitants. Anyone know of a good picture? -- Aqwis ( talk – contributions) 10:04, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bf/Ibadan_street_scene.jpg ^^ This picture seems usable for that. 85.101.59.39 ( talk) 17:21, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Some added the section on Jane Jacobs' faulty notion that cities may have preceeded agriculture. This is an erroneous position, and the fact that authors of this entry want to promote false information does not make me inclined to edit or add to this entry. I have blogged about this (see the ref). [1]

If you want scholarly citations, open up any textbook on world prehistory.

Michael E. Smith ( talk) 20:31, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Maybe they didn't want to promote false information. Perhaps they just made a mistake. At least they tried to include something. Errors on Wikipedia should inspire their correction. Please don't give up. Fix it! Improve it! Attitude is everything.  ;) The Transhumanist 22:27, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

No, I think that some people WANT to promote false information. I had made some minor edits to bring the article in line with current scientific knowledge. But someone discarded my edits and returned to the version with the erroneous interpretations of Jane Jacobs.

Jane Jacobs has something of a cult following, and many planners think that anything she wrote must be good and true. I have blogged about this (see the link above), and some comments on my blog entry were really outraged that I would claim that agriculture preceded cities. Well, excuse me for promoting a model that is universally accepted by archaeologists, and supported by thousands of radiocarbon dates from hundreds of excavations. If the contrary-to-fact opinions of Jane Jacobs are to be favored over well-supported scientific knowledge, then why should I spend my time making corrections? Michael E. Smith ( talk) 22:32, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I've added the requested cite or source and so removed the tags. But feel free to discuss this further although the reference is very clear and from the Chilean federal Government site.

I think that the header can now be removed too? Chuckarg33 ( talk) 15:45, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I just came across this article and saw that it says that the German language does not differentiate between city and town (or village). That is incorrect. "Stadt" always refers to a city (large, urban settlement), while "Dorf" refers to a village (small, more agricultural settlement). The confusion might come from the way the word "town" is used in the US. In the US it can refer to a village (nobody uses that term to describe a small US settlement, everybody uses the word "town"). At the same time it is also used to describe a city: The sentence "We went into town" gives absolutely no clue of the size of the settlement, it could refer to a city or a small village. So the problem is not that German does not differentiate between city and town, but rather that in US English, town can both describe a city or a village. 66.90.155.121 ( talk) 23:11, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that city has a subtly different meaning in British and US English. This article starts with the US meaning, but drifts back and forth between the two.

In modern British English, there are 3 divisions, village, town and city. I won't even attempt to put population figures on these, it is not legally defined anywhere, these are terms in common usage. See the town article, which is describing the British usage of a town being smaller that a city. In US English, "city" is used (correct me if I'm wrong) for anything that has its own local government, even if it would be classified as a village in the UK. As you say, village is not in common usage in the US. Germans sometimes use "Grossstadt" for big city, but that is not an official term.

I have seen this confusion in the past, when a German "Stadt" of < 10000 people is sometimes referred to as a "city" (US usage), and sometimes a town (UK usage).

• Village ( EN_gb) = Dorf ( DE) = village ( FR)
• Town (EN_gb) = Stadt (DE) = ville (FR)
• City (EN_gb) = Stadt / Grossstadt (DE) = ville (FR)

A further confusion is that the minimum size of a city has increased over the centuries, so that the city like Chester or Salisbury which were once amongst the biggest in England, would now be classified as large towns; but they are still called cities because they have been cities for centuries. TiffaF ( talk) 15:09, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

It would be interesting to have statistics showing, e.g. how many population centers around the world exceed 10 million, 1 million, 100,000, etc. -- Beland ( talk) 06:41, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

What is the minimum population required for a city to be offically classified as such? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Biglulu ( talk • contribs) 00:34, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that there is any universally agreed upon standard. Each country decides for itself how a given urbanized area can be classified as a "city" as opposed to a "town" or "villiage," and in the United States, at least, the official definition varies from state to state. There are a few states, in fact, where every incorporated municipality, however small, is officialy a classified as a "city." There are "cities" in North Dakota with fewer than 100 inhabitants! Johnsonkurtis ( talk) 23:38, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

In Europe, City rights (and no, NOT Cathedral) were the defining difference. However, these were usually only granted by exception after the main feudal period (say after 1600-1700). So communities that experienced the bulk of their growth after this date are often underrepresented (in the Netherlands, the classic example is the Hague, better know as "the village in the Dunes", despite having an half million agglomeration, because it never got city rights. Simularly, communities that were significant in medieval times (either due to fortifications, commercial activity or sheer populace), but didn't continue that status after, are overrrepresented. One of the penultimate examples of those are the Hanse cities that didn't continuate their status after early medieval times, like Bruges.

I grew up in a "City" with 3000 inhabitants. But it had a major castle in medieval times.... 88.159.64.117 ( talk)

I see that in the 21st century category, all cities are listed as 'city, country' but the United States entry lists city and state (I listed country earlier this week). I don't see the need to list the state as it links to the relevant article, not a disambiguation. None of the other cities listed have country sub-divisions listed so there seems no need for the entry for Coyote Springs. Zarcadia ( talk) 20:21, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

The article mentions a higher mortality rate for cities. I know that Western cities had higher mortality rates, and I'm assuming Asian cities did, too. But that's just an assumption. Does anyone know, and can we add this information to the article. Leadwind ( talk) 00:15, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

In the United Kingdom, city status is not granted by Royal Charter as stated in this article but is granted by Letters patent. See e.g. Ely, which for a long time (Aikin, John (1800), England delineated (IV ed.), J. Johnson, p. 206) had been thought of as a city anyway. "No. 46255". The London Gazette. 4 April 1974. The QUEEN has been pleased by Letters Patent under the 'Great Seal of the Realm, bearing date the 1st day of April 1974, to ordain that the Town of Ely shall have the status of a City. {{ cite magazine}}: Check date values in: |date= ( help) (I need to fix the Ely article too :) -- Senra ( Talk) 19:12, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm not a legal expert, so I could be very wrong, but are you drawing a false distinction? The Privy Council website says that "[charters]' original purpose was to create public or private corporations (including towns and cities), and to define their privileges and purpose. Nowadays, though Charters are still occasionally granted to cities, new Charters are normally reserved for bodies that work in the public interest (such as professional institutions and charities)". [2]-- Pondle ( talk) 22:14, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

You are right. I am no expert either and indeed I may be drawing a false distinction, though I would think a Chartered body, for example the Royal Academy, is different from a city. However, I suggest the article is modified anyway to help other editors searching for when their settlement was declared a city. They need to look for the term Letters Patent (which may well be a Royal Charter too). In my case, Ely, the London Gazette link above says:

1st April 1974. The QUEEN has been pleased by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm, bearing date the 1st day of April 1974, to ordain that the Town of Ely shall have the status of a City.

—  The Queen, "No. 46255". The London Gazette. 4 April 1974. {{ cite magazine}}: Check date values in: |date= ( help)

-- Senra ( Talk) 17:12, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

The article starts with "A city is a relatively large and permanent settlement." The section on the United States explains that almost any settlement can be called a city there, even those of very small size. This definition differs from both our definition and what seems normal in the rest of the world. How did it arise? Could the answer be included in the article please? HiLo48 ( talk) 04:54, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I'll bump this question again because it looks like nobody reads this Talk page. I really think the anomaly of what the USA calls a city, and why, needs to be better included in the article. At the moment the lead is just plain wrong for America. HiLo48 ( talk) 23:08, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Have you previously posted notice of this discussion attempt at Wikipedia:WikiProject United States, Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities and/or other relevant WikiProjects? Those who may be eager to answer and assist may be watching these projects, yet not watching this article. I can't comment as I don't know where the convention came from and my country of interest is to the north. Hwy43 ( talk) 05:41, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I've just tried the latter article. HiLo48 ( talk) 07:17, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

What in the world does it mean that "some areas near Minneapolis have recently been referred to as non-partisan and territories"? This doesn't seem at all referenced; nor does it sound encyclopedic. 75.246.142.16 ( talk) 03:37, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

The second-last paragraph also makes no sense, is unreferenced, and appears to be contrary to the population data at List of cities in Minnesota. Hwy43 ( talk) 04:10, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Not sure how those last two posts fit under this heading, but back to the definition... I posted this query at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cities and received absolutely no response. Very frustrating. Anyway, I submit that our lead is simply wrong when it comes to the USA, which has, as many defenders of US-centrism repeatedly remind me, a huge proportion of our readership. We really need to amend the lead to point out that "relatively large" does not apply there. (See Soldier, Kansas for evidence of this.) HiLo48 ( talk) 23:49, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

I was very surprised when I read this article that there wasn't a single picture of New York City, while there were two identical pictures of Shanghai. I might be unusually fond of New York, but I think others would agree that there should be at least one picture of it. I didn't go ahead and stick in a picture because I figured if there was this big of a gap, there must be some reason for it. Is there some problem with past pictures, or some other problem that I haven't heard about, or should I just put in a picture? Thanks, Vladmirfish ( talk) 20:31, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

*cough*File:NYC Panorama edit2.jpg is used under ''global cities''*cough* Nev1 ( talk) 20:41, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

there should definitely be a picture of New York in the article, it is the biggest city in the US. Millertime246 ( talk) 00:01, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I added a picture of the New York skyline. Millertime246 ( talk) 00:05, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

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did Jericho was the first city in the world ? . פארוק ( talk) 16:50, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Afaik, no, Jericho is only one of the claimholder for /continuously/ occupied cities, not oldest absolute. Don't worry though, the Jericho Tel is interesting enough without it:-) 88.159.64.117 ( talk) 21:53, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

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The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:City/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

The section on early cities, including the discussion of Gordon Childe's 10 points, is outdated and could be improved and expanded. I've made a start and may work on this later if I find time. Michael E. Smith ( talk) 05:07, 14 March 2008

Last edited at 05:07, 14 March 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 14:32, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

is this considered the world's first urban culture ? פארוק ( talk) 23:32, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

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This may be a bit subtle, considering the modern misuse of encyclopedias, but other, non-encyclopedic sources might be found for this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.247.25.6 ( talk) 22:58, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it is a bit subtle. Can you explain more explicitly what you have in mind? HiLo48 ( talk) 23:10, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

i want to ask should I also add a section on types of cities around the world by geographical area ? , like article on the types of cities around the world in urban geography. פארוק ( talk) 23:47, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

That would be redundant. Lists of cities and Lists of cities by country (just added) are found under the See also section. Hwy43 ( talk) 02:45, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

I do not mean the list of cities ! . But a types of cities by urban planning of geographical area. פארוק ( talk) 04:59, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Please elaborate on what is meant by "types of cities by urban planning of geographical area". Hwy43 ( talk) 06:04, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

in Urban geography There are some types of cities around the world such as:

the Chinese city, the Middle Eastern city, the American City,the Yuruba city in Africa, and so on .......

that what i mean. פארוק ( talk) 07:24, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

There are already subsections for China, numerous Middle Eastern countries, the United States, and many other countries in this article. You can try adding content, to the applicable sections, to get a better sense of what you are intending, but the contributions should include references based on reliable sources—something that is all too lacking in this article. Hwy43 ( talk) 02:04, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

I've struck some of the above, as the subsections are under the "Distinction between cities and towns" section, not a types of cities by country section. Hwy43 ( talk) 04:32, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Pleas look here (Types of cities by geographical area)

this is article that i wrote and after than he was deleted. פארוק ( talk) 11:02, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

"The primary subdivisions for local government in the Republic of Ireland are 26 counties..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_government_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland#County_and_city_councils 29 counties listed there.

81.145.165.212 ( talk) 10:00, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

"Mesopotamia can claim the earliest cities, particularly Eridu, Uruk, and Ur." Certainly wrong. The earliest cities being Jericho, Tell Barak, Catal Hüyük e.a. Mesopotamian lowlands were unfit for permanent settlement due to annual inundations which displaced river beds and left vast stinking, rotting lakes for a few months. Only with neolithic technique could the lowlands be settled (Jemdet Nasr, from 5000 BC onwards).

Nuremberg - Ángel.García 131.188.3.20 ( talk) 09:30, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

In the section "Global cities" Istanbul is used as an example of both a global city and a non-global city. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HivMnd ( talk • contribs) 11:03, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

The section on ancient cities in Sub-Saharan Africa stated: "The oldest sites documented thus far are from around 500 AD including Awdaghust, Kumbi-Saleh the ancient capital of Ghana, and Maranda a center located on a trade rout between Egypt and Gao." This statement seems incorrect, as it does not account for the many urban developments that existed far before 500 AD. I went ahead and added some information about the third century BC urban center of Jenné-Jeno in modern-day Mali, and hopefully others can add more later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sx1212 ( talk • contribs) 15:50, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Under "global cities", Istanbul is listed in the first paragraph as an example of a global city, but on the third paragraph as an example of a historical city but not consider as a "global city".

So, what is it?

24.2.46.25 ( talk) 20:11, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

I see what you mean. Contradictory. All examples of what is and what not is have been removed as there are no citations based on reliable sources to back up either set of the claims for all listed. Hwy43 ( talk) 21:02, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

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I wonder why some cities have less than 100,000 inhabitants... 83.31.59.25 ( talk) 17:11, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Because there is no international definition of a city. It is purely local custom and practice - and sometimes just bad translation - for example, neither the Italian città nor the French cité mean "an urban area of more than 100,000 population". For that matter, neither is it required for a UK city. -- John Maynard Friedman ( talk) 18:32, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Hi all, I plan to make big changes—improvements, I hope!—to this article over the next few weeks. These will be my entry into the Core Contest, which is a drive to improve Wikipedia's most vital articles. Anyone reading this should consider entering! It's worthwhile and fun and you might get a prize. And if you don't already know there is a lot of room for improvement in the vital article rolls.

Books I am consulting to get a general idea of what belongs in the article:

• The City in History by Lewis Mumford
• The City in Time and Space by Aidan Southall
• The Meaning of the City by Jacques Ellul (on loan to a friend but I'll get it back; by the way this book plays a starring role in the Wikipédia article Ville)

Changes which suggest themselves after perusing the existing article:

1. Introduce a section on definition, characteristics, and etymology (ideally touching on etymologies in different languages, e.g. πόλις, insofar as they are keys to understanding the concept itself); fold in section about distinction from towns
2. Diversify the "Origins" section and move most of the extended economic theory from O'Flaherty 2005 to a fork
3. Renegotiate (or maybe merge) the transition from "Origins" to "History"
4. Trim material on "Global City" and "Inner City" as these are specialized terms (dare I say, buzzwords) which can be fully covered in their own articles
5. Reconsider the "21st century" section—is the periodization appropriate? is this topic covered well? and what exactly is the list of cities supposed to be? (are these the smart ones?)
6. Expand "Networks of cities" into a prose section or subsection with appropriate explanation

Reading some books on the topic will guide further changes. I expect that sections or subsections could be introduced on infrastructure, social structure, and cultural representations of cities. Of course it is quite a challenge to make general statements about something which has manifested in different ways all across the earth. I am hoping to find good sources that will deal with the topic at an appropriate level.

I hope people will let me know if these changes sound good or bad, if they have ideas of books and articles for me to read, or if there are particular areas they think I should look into. Also I hope people will not be discouraged from editing just because I am in a sense 'claiming' this project. I love collaboration and consider it to be a fundamental part of the purpose of this website.

Cheers, groupuscule ( talk) 05:46, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

The History section is simultaneously too long to fit comfortably in the general article and and too short to adequately deal with the topics it proposes to cover. Should it fork out somewhere else? Is there an appropriate existing article ( Urban history?) or should it go to History of the city or History of cities (currently both redirect to "Urban history") or somewhere else? The problem with " Urban history" right now is that its entire focus is the academic realms dealing with the city of histories. And it's already long. Spanish Wikipedia has es:Historia de las ciudades which I think falls more upon the lines we need. groupuscule ( talk) 21:48, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

@ Groupuscule: History of cities redirects to Urban history, so I made that the "main article" for the History section. The general goal here is for the History section here to summarize what is in that article, as it is done in similar situations. See Template:Summarize. (It may be useful to place this tag too.) Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 10:48, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Hi the User:Stevietheman thanks for the reply and the edit. The problem is that the Urban history article does not at present remotely cover the material we have in our history section; it covers the academic field—at great length. (And therefore the History section here does not summarize that page, nor should it.) So either Urban history must be transformed completely, or another article must be created to present the actual history information (or the academics information could be moved somewhere else and "Urban history" could become the repository for actual history.) I'm open to any option but I'm leaning toward repurposing " History of the city" for the actual history information, since it is more to the point than "Urban history" as a title. groupuscule ( talk) 11:40, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with a useful reorganization, although it's always good to start discussions about it on the talk pages of affected articles. For now, I have moved Urban history to "Further information", as per your response, it's not a proper "main article" at this time. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 14:08, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

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There is a word missing from this sentence under Internal Structure: In cities such as and also Moscow, this pattern is still clearly visible. KannD86 ( talk) 15:36, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

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Is there a list of all cities of all countries, with a unique code per city (with a population greater than 2,000 or it has an airport with an IATA code)? So we can easily populate lists and that if a city changes its name then we can still keep referencial integrity to it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.201.33.24 ( talk) 18:39, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Why are we using a picture of Palitana to demonstrate what a city is? Because Palitana is so pilgrimage-dependent, it seems like a strange choice to model the typical city. Mcavoybickford ( talk) 21:44, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

The section on urban ecology includes extensive discussion of the ecological and health detriments of cities without commensurate discussion of the benefits. In particular, the sentence "From one perspective, cities are not ecologically sustainable due to their resource needs" needs contextualization: is this comparing cities to rural areas or central cities to suburbs? What is assumed about global population and consumption in the absence of cities?

The section should mention the large and growing literature showing that compact development in central cities has lower environmental impact than sprawling development, and in particular, has lower carbon footprints in Western cities. ^{[1] [2]}

In addition, the discussion of health might mention that in Western countries, health and life expectancy is now higher in central cities than in suburbs and rural areas. ^[3]

Zsubin ( talk) 20:47, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

The last sentence of the intro (the last sentence of the 3rd paragraph of the article) makes no sense, unless I am overlooking something. Here is what it says: "Another example of relative age, is in the age of the oldest capital cities of the superpower and emerging superpower, they are the U.S. state capital of Santa Fe, New Mexico, and the Chinese prefecture capital of Xi'an, Shaanxi." Josh Theta ( talk) 02:06, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree. It needs either further explanation, or deletion. Even the previous sentence doesn't seem to offer much. Those two sentences are the only place in the article where the term "relative age" is used. It isn't defined, and the examples given don't help me to understand what the writer meant by it. I'd be happy to see both sentences disappear. HiLo48 ( talk) 02:14, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Done. -- Khajidha ( talk) 15:44, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

I think it probably lost meaning after the rest of the paragraph was restructured. I attempted to correct it, but the edits were reverted. I also tried to correct some incorrect lists, and to back them with sources. But I guess that didn't help. Here are those fixes that I tried, for someone to potentially fix in the future. I can't be the only one to think it would be important to show some regional capital examples, as well as ancient cities in the Western hemisphere.

Other important traits of cities besides population include the capital city status and relative continued occupation of the city. For example, country capitals such as Beijing, London, Mexico City, Moscow, Nairobi, New Delhi, Paris, Rome, Seoul, Tokyo, and Washington, D.C. reflect the identity as national capitals. ^{[capitaldraft 1]} Some historic capitals, such as Kyoto in Japan's Kyoto Prefecture, Santa Fe in the US state of New Mexico, and Xi'an in China's Shaanxi province, maintain their reflection of cultural identity as regional capitals. ^{[capitaldraft 2] [capitaldraft 3] [capitaldraft 4]} There are former national capitals, like Alexandria and New York City, that continue to be globally recognized cultural and economic hubs. ^{[capitaldraft 5] [capitaldraft 6]} Religious holy sites offer another example of capital status within a religion, Vatican City, Varanasi, and Bodhgaya each hold significance. ^{[capitaldraft 7] [capitaldraft 8]} The old world cities of Jericho, Damascus, Aleppo, and Athens are among those laying claim to the longest continual inhabitation, ^{[capitaldraft 9]} while in the Americas among the oldest new world settlements are Cholula near Puebla, Florés in Petén, Oraibi near Kykotsmovi Village, and Acoma near Albuquerque. ^{[capitaldraft 10]}

Refs

1. ^ "Ch2". www-personal.umich.edu. Retrieved 2021-05-10.
2. ^ Choi, Eunice. "Kyoto: History and Background". Columbia University in the City of New York. Retrieved 2021-07-25.
3. ^ Kiprop, Victor (2018-03-13). "The 10 Oldest State Capitals". WorldAtlas. Retrieved 2021-07-19.
4. ^ Mookherjee, Sheema (2013-10-25). "China's ancient capital rises again". BBC Travel. Retrieved 2021-07-19.
5. ^ Mackie, J. Alan (2020-12-10). "History, Population, Map, & Facts". Encyclopedia Britannica. Retrieved 2021-07-25.
6. ^ Lankevich, George (2020-10-23). "New York City - Layout, People, Economy, Culture, & History". Encyclopedia Britannica. Retrieved 2021-07-25.
7. ^ {Cite web|title=Ch2|url= https://www.britannica.com/browse/Religious-Places%7Caccess-date=2021-07-25%7Cwebsite=Britannica}}
8. ^ Huang, Juliane (2008-08-05). "The 5 Most Sacred Cities For The Spiritual Traveler". Matador Network. Retrieved 2021-07-25.
9. ^ "11 oldest continuously inhabited cities in the world". Times of India Travel. 2014-07-08. Retrieved 2021-07-25.
10. ^ Kiprop, Joseph (2017-07-18). "The Oldest Cities in North America". WorldAtlas. Retrieved 2021-07-25.

71.228.115.97 ( talk) 13:35, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Then there's the City of Groton (Connecticut), which is a small part of the Town of Groton.... 104.153.40.58 ( talk) 01:24, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

I recently swapped out the image of the Eiffel Tower in the lead for one of Times Square, and John Maynard Friedman reverted. Although the Eiffel Tower is certainly a highly recognizable landmark around the world, I don't think it connotes a sense of urbanism as well as Times Square. What do others think? {{u| Sdkb}}  ^talk 20:36, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

I reverted per WP:BRD because I think it a significant change that needs discussion. The caption on the Paris image has a citation, so that gives it a head start over an "I think this one would be better". But if a dense urban area is preferred, surely Hong Kong or Shanghai would be more apt? Or shanty bairros around Rio de Janeiro? -- John Maynard Friedman ( talk) 21:20, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Hong Kong or Shanghai could certainly work; I selected File:Pudong Shanghai November 2017 panorama.jpg for Human history#21st century. The favelas around Rio would be an interesting choice given how poor they are; that raises the question of whether it's better to go with a less-developed city to represent how the majority of the world's urban residents actually live or a more-developed city to represent the pinnacle of what cities can become.

Thinking about this, actually the best solution might be to do a collage of a diverse group of cities around the world. Would you be interested in helping compile some photos for it? {{u| Sdkb}}  ^talk 21:32, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Here's a gallery of some possible images:

• 
  Westminster Hall, London
• 
  Westminster Hall, London (another option)
• 
  Klagenfurt, Austria
• 
  Favela in Rio
• 
  Another favela
• 
  A third favela option
• 
  A fourth favela option
• 
  Sao Paulo
• 
  Moscow
• 
  Tokyo's Shibuya Crossing
• 
  Shanghai
• 
  Times Square
• 
  Pissarro painting of Paris, fall
• 
  Pissarro painting of Paris, Spring
• 
  Paris
• 
  Caillebotte painting of Paris
• 
  Royal Avenue, Belfast
• 
  Hong Kong
• 
  London (historical)
• 
  Bosa, Sardinia, Italy
• 
  Sao Paulo metro
• 
  London Tube
• 
  Market in Luxor, Egypt
• 
  Market in Nuremburg
• 
  Street in Delhi
• 
  Tokyo
• 
  Market in Lagos, Nigeria
• 
  New York City
• 
  New York City
• 
  New York City
• 
  Wetzlar, Hesse, Germany
• 
  Bonn, Germany
• 
  Bandra Worli Sea-Link in Mumbai
• 
  Boston, Massachusetts, U.S.
• 
  Interchange in Shanghai, China

Whew, that's a bunch. A bunch of these may be able to appear elsewhere in the article if not the infobox collage. We're spoiled for choices here. {{u| Sdkb}}  ^talk 23:04, 13 July 2021 (UTC)^{Additional photos added after}

Left to right, from top: Westminster Palace in London, Shibuya Crossing in Tokyo, painting of the Boulevard Montmartre in Paris by Camille Pissarro, the Rocinha favela in Rio di Janeiro, 6th Avenue in Manhattan, spice market in Old Delhi, Hong Kong, the São Paulo Metro

Okay, here's my proposed collage. It took quite a while to balance, but I think it came out well. Geographically, we've got 3 Asia, 2 Europe, 1 North America, 2 South America, and no Africa. Thoughts? {{u| Sdkb}}  ^talk 00:56, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, please! A collage is so much better than just one image for this article. In particular, a single photo from a European capital city would just reinforce the Global North bias that Wikipedia has. For the proposed collage, we do need about 2 photos from Africa though (if you have a total of 9 photos). Having 3 from America but zero from Africa wouldn't be right. Second question is do we only want to show the beautiful parts of a city or also its problems, like gridlock traffic, air pollution and informal settlements? However, then we'd have the dilemma if we showed an informal settlement of an African city we would reinforce the stereotype that Africa equals problems. For comparison, we had a very long discussion on the talk page of sustainable energy until we found a collage of 4 photos from around the world ( /info/en/?search=Talk:Sustainable_energy/Archive_5#Swap_images_in_the_lead?) I also worked for a long time on the collage that we used for marine biology. EMsmile ( talk) 03:05, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Glad to hear the support for a collage! I've gone ahead and boldly added it, and we can refine further as needed.

I'm open to adding an image from Africa if we can find a good one. I searched a fair bit, though, and nothing really stood out. The two Africa photos I found above are the Egyptian market one and the Lagos market one. We could swap out the current market one for one of those, but I'm not sure India deserves representation any less than Egypt, and the Lagos one isn't a particularly good photo. Overall, so long as the photos have global reach, I don't think we need strict quotas.

Regarding which aspects of cities to feature, I agree it should have a balance (we pursued a similar goal for Washington, D.C.). Currently, the Rio favelas and the Delhi market are representing poorer cities, and there's a mix of skylines and streetscapes. A gridlock photo such as File:Traffic congestion Jl Asia Afrika Bandung.jpg or File:Kazi Nazrul Islam Ave Road, Dhaka. .jpg could work, but I think a metro is a bit better for a transit photo, as traffic jams can happen outside cities whereas metros are unique to them. {{u| Sdkb}}  ^talk 04:08, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

That's good that you've made the swap. I am still arguing for a picture from Africa - if we want an "iconic" one, we could take one of Cape Town with Table Mountain... Otherwise Nairobi or Kampala probably also have a few in Wikimedia Commons. I would replace the Sao Paulo Metro one which would be more suited for an article on public transport. Another option is to look at the article megacity which has lots of good photos of cities, and we could take one from there (should our photos show only cities, not megacities? Or is city the overarching term anyhow?). Also by the way, I looked also at village and town. Almost all of the photos that appear in their leads are from Europe. It feels like Wikipedia is just by Europeans for Europeans. Do you have energy/interest to also add some pictures from Africa, Asia and Latin America to those articles? Bit by bit we can help reduce the Global North focus of Wikipedia... (is there a WikiProject for that? "WikiProject Global South" perhaps?) EMsmile ( talk) 10:43, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I like this change in principle but agree that sub-Saharan Africa and South America need including. Indeed if we had just one image from each continent (except two for Asia), it would be a good balance of geographic representation v. size of the composite image (think of the mobile reader). -- John Maynard Friedman ( talk) 13:23, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

• I may be gong against popular opinion here, but I don't like the collage. It is too busy, the images are too small and some of the pictures don't even show a city (i.e. the train one and one is a painting). I would prefer a single image or at most two or three. Aircorn  (talk) 02:08, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

I do like collages for the leads (and for this article) but I agree with Aircorn that this collage of 9 images is perhaps a bit too much. Cut it down to 5 or 6? In addition, I think the balance of regions is not right (see previous comment). I would take out some of the European ones, remove the train one and rather add one from Africa. There'll be heaps of pretty photos of Cape Town in Wikimedia Commons, I am sure. Or Nairobi or Kampala or Ouagadougou... (sorry for just commenting but not putting the hard work in myself to actually select photos that fit, trying out what looks nice together etc. Hoping that someone else will do that. :-) ). EMsmile ( talk) 07:49, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

@ EMsmile: What about this. Aircorn  (talk) 22:15, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

@ Aircorn:, I like your collage of three images and could live with them for the city article. I am just wondering if it's a bit "unfair" not to use any of the images that were selected earlier? Is 3 images perhaps too few? Also would someone from Latin America say that "we don't just have slums in Latin America, why do you always pick a slum picture when it's from South America?" I guess it's not really a slum-slum (despite what it says in the caption) just a different forum of living. (Could be clarified in the caption that would be used for the collage) - And should we show also people, not just buildings? Not sure. I guess it gets just too hard if we apply too many criteria... - Also, please take a look at the images used for town and village as well. Again, they are very European centric. There is also the article on mega city which doesn't have good imagery in the lead. EMsmile ( talk) 02:56, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

There is never going to be the perfect solution. Personally I would be happy with just one decent image of a city, which I feel any of the three fulfill plus many others. However I acknowledge that collages are popular choices here. I think the only real criteria is that it needs to unambiguously show a city. For example the train image above is an image of a metro and there is also a market. Sure metros and markets are in cities, but they fit better in sections within the article, not as a lead picture. I don't know about using the previously selected images. You could swap one out for Hong Kong or London easily enough. I like Shanghai because it is a featured picture and one of the largest cities in the world, Cape Town was mentioned above and I looked for something different for the third. I am not overly fussed on which images are chosen though, as long as it is not too crowded and they are relevant for a lead image. Aircorn  (talk) 22:36, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi there, just trying to rap this up / bring it to a conclusion / establish consensus. I am now in favour of the 3 images as proposed by Aircorn as it's more plain and less busy than the current collage. How would you Sdkb feel about this? I do think the new proposition has its merits. It's simpler, less Euro-centric, less on tangents (like trains and markets). EMsmile ( talk) 10:32, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, but that doesn't look like a good option to me. The top image is nice, but neither of the bottom two are particularly compelling, and as a whole it just doesn't work well as an assemblage with the different image heights and sole use of skylines rather than streetscapes. I'm not sure why you continue to assert that the present collage is Eurocentric when only 2/8 images are from Europe and only 3/8 from the Western world. I also don't view the metro and market images as "tangents". A good collage illustrates various different aspects of city life, not just skylines, and crowded markets/urban transportation are quintessential signifiers of urban life. {{u| Sdkb}}  ^talk 17:52, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Actually, my bad, it's only 2 images from Europe but because the one from London is the top one it sticks out a lot. It would be more suited if the article was about London. I think we should rather have images that are not as "iconic" (like the others that are in the collage or those that have been proposed by Aircorn). Also I think we definitely don't need this one: "painting of the Boulevard Montmartre in Paris by Camille Pissarro" (why even include the name of the painter?)". I think if you try to show various aspects of city life this gets too complicated. Who defines which aspects are important? You could say you'd need a photo of nightlife, a photo of arts & culture, universities etc. Crowded markets: OK, maybe but those markets also exist in towns and villages. A photo of a subway is not required/useful/essential IMHO. Aircon felt that the current number of images is too much / too busy, and I tend to agree with that view. So my proposal would be to replace the London image with one of the 3 proposed by Aircorn. Delete the painting image. Remove the São Paulo Metro. Those are just my suggestions. Would be happy to discuss further and to hear from more people if anyone else is watching? EMsmile ( talk) 08:27, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

A tag was placed into this section, suggesting that a new article be carved out from it. Is there enough material to do so? What's currently here suggests that there's not. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 11:27, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Sorry if I worded it wrong. What I was looking to do is a series of tables and information on the differing legal definitions of what constitutes a city. For example, in New Hampshire, a city is a municipal body that has a mayor (towns and unincorporated places do not.) But in other states such as Alabama, to my understanding, the legal definition is based entirely on population. And in other parts of the world, there are other methods in determining what exactly is a city. So far, I can't find anyplace on Wikipedia that has this information.

I think something outlining all of those specific legal definitions would be useful, but probably too much for the main article. However, I was not sure if the community thought a separate article as a resource would be warranted. South Nashua ( talk) 15:36, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Oh I see. I can see the value of a resource like that, although the optimal approach (to me) would be to find that on external sites (if they exist) and link to them for the reader's further research. Building such a resource here would be quite an endeavor, although with good sourcing, it would be of encyclopedic value, as far as I can see. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 18:27, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Cool, I'll get going on it. Ultimately what you're talking about was the main part of what I was thinking of, specifically, providing external links to pages with the laws specifying the jurisdictional legal definitions. I think it would be really useful once it's done and I know where to find at least a few of them to begin. Thanks for your input here. South Nashua ( talk) 21:05, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

North of the border we have List of cities in Canada that does (or should) distinguish between city status by province and territory while also listing all cities within each. List of cities in the United States is a dab and emulating the Canadian list would be tough since there are thousands of cities in the US. The article would be huge. Without looking at what you've started working on yet, how about an article along the lines of City status in the United States that explains what city status is in all fifty states with main article links to city lists by state? Hwy43 ( talk) 22:53, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

That might be a good idea. Once I'm done there, I could add a hub article or as you said, just add this onto the existing lists of cities. South Nashua ( talk) 14:29, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Ultimately, what I want to do has come from the fact that I grew up in a New Hampshire town that is larger in population than most of its cities. Yet there were some people that called it a city and some people that called it a town. I think it would be a good idea to differentiate and explain the differences. Both in New Hampshire and ultimately, everywhere. South Nashua ( talk) 14:30, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Such a distinction literally does not exist where I live (North Carolina). From the NC League of Municipalities website: "In North Carolina, cities, towns and villages are incorporated municipalities. An incorporated municipality means the North Carolina General Assembly (or, in a few cases, a former state agency known as the Municipal Board of Control) has granted a charter authorizing the establishment of a municipal corporation (government) and outlining the powers, authority and responsibilities of the municipal government. Some of these are specified in the charter and some are authorized by state statutes.

The charter designates whether a municipality will be known as a city, a town or a village. There is no legal difference in the designations. It is a matter of the preferences of the residents. There are cities of 1,000 residents, and towns with populations greater than 100,000." (www.nclm.org/resource-center/Pages/How-Municipalities-Work.aspx) -- Khajidha ( talk) 12:40, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Sorry to reopen an old thread, but I also came to this article trying to find international definitions that distinguish a town from a city. In England and Wales, historically, "city" has been nothing to do with size, instead:

• a hamlet is a geographically close collection of houses
• a village is a hamlet with a church
• a town is a village with a market
• a city is a town with a cathedral

...but even in E&W, in modern times, there have been settlements granted city status that did not yet have a cathedral. It seems to me that the article would benefit from a couple of extra paragraphs explaining the distinction between town and city (or LACK of distinction) as experienced in the English-speaking world (because this is the English language WP).

This could be solved by linking to City status earlier in the article and with more emphasis. Andrew Oakley ( talk) 11:08, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

A cathedral has not been the relevant qualification for a century or more. (and Rochester in Kent has a cathedral but legally is a constituent town of Medway).

But remember this is the English language Wikipedia, not the English Wikipedia. UK readers are very much in the minority. City status in the United Kingdom is highly anomalous by world standards. The tail should not expect to wag the dog. -- John Maynard Friedman ( talk) 19:32, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

I've read the city status article and I have no idea what it is trying to say or what this status is.-- User:Khajidha ( talk) ( contributions) 19:02, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

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