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Other than noting the organism survived how was it's fitness measured ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by TongueSpeaker ( talk • contribs) 11:06, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Removed:
("They" referrrs to evolutionary scientists") This is irrelevant to the article, and is inaccurate from what I've heard, where evolutionists generally often focus on the individual organism as the unit of selection. This gets into the issue of "selection of" and "selection for", which are beyond the scope of this article.you are so retardBold textSmall Text AdamRetchless 21:39, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
I disagree with the presentation of the idea of 'survival of the fittest' as a tautology. Inherent in the statement is the idea that "those most fit to survive are the only ones who will or should." That's hardly a tautological statement.- McC 03:07, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
--
You are simply re-arranging the phrase, "those most fit to survive are the only ones who will or should" simply re-presents the same tautological statement. How do you then tell which creatures are the ones most fit? They survived. Its like saying "a circle is round".
Okay, where does the phrase "survival of the fittest" come from? In this article it says that it was first mentioned in Social Statics. But if you follow the link on that article page to the online copy, and search that for either survival or fittest, then you find nothing. Please, someone with a proper encyclopedia on his/her shelf should look this one up. 80.126.3.128 20:29, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Publictransport4us ( talk) 19:18, 29 March 2009 (UTC)Yes you are right. Charles Darwin did not use the term in the 1st to 4th editions. The first time he mentions Herman Spencer coining the term "survival of the fittest" is in his 5th edition published in 1869 (London: John Murray. 5th edition; Chapter III, page 72).
You can follow the different editions online <ref>(http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?itemID=F387&viewtype=side&pageseq=1)</ref>
Darwin uses the phrase in 'The Variation Of Animals And Plants Under Domestication' -- Volume 2, chapter XX, first paragraph: "The power of Selection, whether exercised by man, or brought into play under nature through the struggle for existence and the consequent survival of the fittest, absolutely depends on the variability of organic beings." The date for this work is 1868, a year before the sixth edition of the Origin :) Kind Regards Robert Karl Stonjek —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.223.158.79 ( talk) 13:25, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
This sentence taken from the current revision of the article:
This can be rewritten as: "although fitness really means better survival and reproduction, some say that 'survival of the fittest' is equivalent to 'survival of those who survive best' or 'reproduction of those who reproduce most'". Well, duh ! Clearly this sentence is problematic.
The modern scientific of fitness is reproductive success (although this can be calculated in different ways). In the deprecated meaning that Spencer had in mind, the expression "survival of the fittest" ("survival of those who are better adapted for survival") is pretty much tautological. In the modern sense of the term ("survival of those who reproduce better"), it does not mean much. This is why scientists have stopped using it.
The fundamental problem with the expression "survival of the fittest" is that it does not take into account the key requirement of heritability. You can have survival of the fittest, and yet have no evolution at all, if this superior "fitness" (whether in the old or modern sense) is not based on heritable traits; but if this superior fitness is indeed based on heritable traits, evolution mechanically ensues. Check out the link to Ridley's explanation in the "external links" section.
I've reverted his most revecent changes, but we ought to consider reverting to this version and simply reading through his changes for any useful bit. JeffBurdges 18:34, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
The phrase is a metaphor, not a scientific description; and it is not generally used by biologists, who almost exclusively prefer to use the phrase "natural selection". <br\>
Such an argument requires a citation. Could anyone provide that? Aranherunar 12:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Example: In The Man Versus The State of 1884 Spencer used this phrase to reinforce his social theories, writing "Thus by survival of the fittest, the militant type of society becomes characterized by profound confidence in the governing power, joined with a loyalty causing submission to it in all matters whatever." Companies which offer better goods and services survive better in the marketplace and tend to accumulate an ever-growing market share. Poorly-adapting companies will be forced out by better-adapting ones: "killed" by the competition.
Spencer's work is badly cited here (it's in the postscript to the work)! Furthermore, the second clause about companies does not pertain to the cite provided here. Criticism of Spencer's use of the phrase should be properly sourced according to WP:NOR, after it is explained what Spencer actually meant. Incinerator2.0 22:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Revamped the paragraph. It no longer claims that he was using the phrase to support his theories. In fact you could argue that Spencer's notion of "survival of the fittest" is quite different from Darwin's notion. It sounds like he could be talking about Lamarckian evolution, group selection, memetics, etc... all at the same time. Mistercupcake 04:53, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
the "tautology" section was quite obviously written by somebody who has not understood the claim to the statement's tautology, instead going on about a "modern sense of 'fit'" (presumably " physical fitness"), apparently unaware of the generic sense "suited, proper". The example just illustrates the concept all over again without addressing the tautology issue. The gazelle example,
says illustrates an incidence of one criterion for fitness in a certain context, i.e. "fastness". But a fast gazelle is not just fit because it is fast, but because it lives in an environment where speed is beneficial. the same gazelle would not profit from its fastness in another environment (say, on an island with no predators). It is therefore not "fit because it is fast", but proves fit by being selected.
it is true that fitness is "simply a measurement of the result of selection", which is the entire point. It is unclear why this is supposed to be "not tautological". dab (ᛏ) 18:29, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Note: much of the "Is 'survival of the fittest' a tautology?" section appears word for word at
http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~txm/thesis/node17.html. It's not clear which is the original. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
64.41.8.179 (
talk) 20:57, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Following the Tautology links section http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA500.html "....What Darwin said is that heritable variations lead to differential reproductive success."
Where did Darwin say this reproductive success and differential appears nowhere in Origin of Species from http://www.gutenbergpress.org ? TongueSpeaker 18:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
In the TalkOrigins link you show above, the paragraph including the statement "What Darwin said is that heritable variations lead to differential reproductive success." is attributed to Weiner, Jonathan. 1994. The Beak of the Finch. New York: Knopf. The term natural means of selection was used by Darwin in his essay of 1842 and his 1844 revision of his essay as published in 1858 includes the term natural selection. The 1842 essay says "But if man selects, then new races rapidly formed," the term artificial selection appears in The Origin in 1859. .. dave souza, talk 01:36, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
In this thread "What Naturaled and Who did the Selecting" http://groups.google.com/group/talk.origins/browse_thread/thread/38df9a9a127281a8/733affebf9ef9aca?lnk=st&q=&rnum=3#733affebf9ef9aca I was told that the phrase Micro Evolution in the Oxford English Dictionary is from 1911, citing the American Naturalist v. 45, p. 256. The first for Macro Evolution is Dobzhansky's "Genetics & Origin of Species".. Virtually nobody knows this because everybody seems to just invent new phrases as they go along. I still don't know who established Reproductive Success or when was the phrase used for the first time. Did Weiner formally establish this in 1994? And my point as I made still stands, Darwin did not use the word differential, yet everybody thinks he did. To clarify this confusion we should track down the person and first usage of the phrase and how this person formally established this concept in the same way the Fourier established the Fourier Transform. We are told that Evolution or NS is not circular in its argument. It is as though somebody has simply decreed that it is impossible to phrase Evolution, NS, Reproductive Success in a circular manner. In order to demonstrate that we are not using circular or tautological arguments, we must somehow agree on some way of formulating these concepts so that they are circular. Presently anybody and everybody simply postulates that this or that formulation of NS is circular or not, but we are never told who formally established it as such. TongueSpeaker 18:50, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Berlinski asked in his book that "Fitness" be derived from first principles: p.277 First edtion Black Mischief: "... In general trouble arises simply because the connection between biological traits and fitness is never derived from first principles. If the pig were to be born with wheels mounted on ball bearings instead of trotters, would it be better off on some scale of porcine fitness?" TongueSpeaker 16:28, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
'The phrase is a metaphor, not a scientific description; and it is not generally used by biologists, who almost exclusively prefer to use the phrase "natural selection".' Kind of true but disguises the fact that "natural selection" is more of a metaphor. The word 'natural' in natural selection is often misunderstood. It does not mean natural in the sense of distinguising from the supernatural. It doesn't mean natural in the everyday sense of "the likely course of events without interference". It doesn't even mean "occuring in nature". Strictly, at least according to the original meaning, it means "performed by Mother Nature" and so natural selection is a least as metaphorical as "survival of the fitest"! — Axel147 22:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
In case you thought I was just being pedantic Wallace himself makes this point in a letter to Darwin!
— Axel147 20:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Do we really even need this? It's not POV to omit every bit of grossly fallicious creationist drivel that's about. -- Pvednes 18:44, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone else think that whole paragraph is incredibly argumentative? I think the references (Is/Ought and consequences fallacy) are fine, but this paragraph is basically a detailed refutation of an ill-defined criticism. I also don't the way that capitalism, war, and racism are being umbrella'd together. It just looks like textbook strawman to me. I might take a shot at rewriting the whole thing later, when I have more time.
Four out of four of the links in the "Tautology Links" section lead to articles all sharing the same perspective. I have added a fifth link to an article sharing the other major perspective. If providing only a single perspective is your idea of balance please delete all links but those leading to articles with the same point of view. 76.29.90.227 03:01, 29 June 2007 (UTC)Steve
To say that an airplane is a tautology is meaningless, nor does it stop the plane from flying. So too with NS; traits do lead to differential reproductive success. Of the two types of tautologies, rhetorical and logical, NS remains a rhetorical tautology in reference to its ability to explain genetic information. Just as the word "airplane" is not a tautology unless it is used as an explanation for why aircraft can fly, so NS is not a tautology unless used as an explanation for the origin of genetic information. A thing of itself is not a tautology. A thing used as an explanation for its own traits is a tautology. In fact, a thing used to explain its own traits results in a rhetorical tautology. Rhetorical and logical tautologies are different constructs that produce the same effect: circular reasoning. Circular reasoning results when one attempts to provide an explanation for one's axioms. What I am saying is that NS as an explanation for the origin of species is a statement of faith.
That some die explains not why others survive. That some survive does not explain genetic info. DNA causes replication and variation. The environment causes death. What causes genetic information? The very basis of evolution (reproduction and variation) is the outcome of genetic information. Yet what causes genetic information? The environment causes death, but the fact that some die does not explain why others survive. What causes genetic information? There is no natural selection without genetic information. Yet, what causes genetic information?
In summary, NS is a tautology when used as an explanation for the origin of genetic info, that is, when used to explain the origin of species, because genetic information causes the reproduction and variation from which nature can select. 76.29.90.227 03:45, 29 June 2007 (UTC)Steve
I would really appreciate if somebody found out where the phrase originates, especially since the versions on this page and Spencer's page tell quite different stories. Drivehonor 18:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
No... don't come here and yell at me. I'm simply asking this question. I was told recently that "Survival of the Fittest" is being replaced by another phrase.
Biological fitness is a multi-objective concept hence the statement "fittest" is inappropriate. The following statement is proposed "Survival is mostly for those with non-dominated fitness. E.Ahmed and A.S.Hegazi Mansoura EGYPT.
Would a mention of the phrase Survival of the fit belong on this page? It is actually the more correct phrases since, fittest implies that the evolutionary procecss chooses for perfection, which isn't the case. Also I've read in places that Survival of the fit predates fittest. 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Would a mention of the phrase survival of the fit belong on this page? Being more correct, since the evolutionary process does not result in the selection of the fittest, Wikipedia should welcome the change. 12 April 2008 (UTC)
In the 'Is "survival of the fittest" a tautology?' section, I find the (numerous) use of the term "characters" somewhat confusing and think they should all be changed to either "characteristics" or "traits" -- which I think is what is meant, but is are more prevalent.
In spite of that, when I look up the definition of the word "character", it appears that its usage here is technically correct esp in relation to heredity -- even if uncommon in everyday language:
Lastly, changing the term as proposed would make it more consistent with the Wikipedia page on heritability only uses the terms "characteristics" or "traits" (mostly the latter).
So, before making this change, I'd like to know others' thoughts. So please add any comments here.
( Martnym ( talk) 18:31, 13 November 2008 (UTC))
The phrase "survival of the fittest" is often used in popular culture to mean "survival of the strongest/fastest/most intelligent." This is of course utterly unscientific, since evolutionary fitness has nothing to do with characteristics that are seen as positive by human beings. "Fitter" does not mean "better" (where "better" is a human value judgement). I believe the popular misconception is common enough that it should be addressed in the lead of the article, so I have edited it accordingly.
Such misunderstandings have been normal rather than the exception ever since 1900. This page unfortunately seems to have misunderstood the meaning the word "fit" had in the 1800s, and it should be radically revised. "Fit" meant suitable or appropriate. For example, women of the middle class could often be considered "not a fit wife for her excellent son"(Anne Bronte's novel "Agnes Grey"). The modern and usual meaning of the word is a product ot the 1900s, and Darwin and Spencer had no concept of physical fitness -- a modern luxury. The old concept "fit" represents in itself a relative quality, relative to something, , just like the verb "to fit", as a lid fits on its box. Darwin wanted such a relative concept, so he adopted Spencer's expression. It expressed "suited or adapted to its environment", which is exactly his basis for natural selection. It follows that he could have written "survival of the fit", it expresses almost the same idea. But "fittest" makes the idea of selection of only the best suited characteristics clearer. Mondin ( talk) 16:42, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
The article writes:
"If certain heritable characters increase or decrease the chances of survival and reproduction of their bearers, then it follows mechanically (by definition of "heritable") that those characters that improve survival and reproduction will increase in frequency over generations."
The problem here is, that you have created a second term of fitness. You officially use fitness as "relative reproductive success" but inofficially you use a second term as "certain heritable characters increase or decrease the chances of survival and reproduction of their bearers". I prefer the notion of fitness as "adaption" or "competencies" in relation to environment, because it is more general. Of course, those competencies should be heritable, but this could include imitation, education etc. (eg heritation of language) as well.
So actually you have nothing solved with fitness = reproductive success. -- 79.220.172.178 ( talk) 18:50, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
I added a link that is more detailed about Evolution as a tautology. There is a lot of consusion here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.67.86.44 ( talk) 18:55, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Origin And Nature Of Natural Selection
Longevity Schmongevity Genes
It's Not The Procedure, But The Concept That Is Absurd
Longevity Genes Search Reflects Science Decadence http://www.the-scientist.com/community/posts/list/320/122.page#6368
A. For most centenarians, longevity is written in the DNA. A study of people who live past 100 reveals many genetic paths to a long life. http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/60772/title/For_most_centenarians%2C_longevity_is_written_in_the_DNA
B. Longevity, survival, natural selection, evolution
- Merriam-Webster OnLine Longevity = a : a long duration of individual life b : length of life <a study of longevity>
- Longevity is about survival, which is about "natural selection", which is about energy constrainment, which is about life evolution, which is about cosmic evolution. Every mass is destined to become energy to fuel the ongoing cosmic expansion. This is why organisms and black holes etc., eat, digest energy in mass forms, to avoid-postpone conversion to energy. This is evolution, which is natural selection, which is survival, which is longevity.
- All mass formats age. Life is a mass format. Searching for longevity genes is searching for evolution genes...
C. The search for longevity genes is a reflection of the 20th-21st centuries science decadence
Its concepts and terminology reflect the abandonment of basic science for adoption of the pretentious cancerous capitalist 20th-21st century technology culture.
Dov Henis
(Comments From The 22nd Century)
03.2010 Updated Life Manifest
http://www.the-scientist.com/community/posts/list/54.page#5065
Cosmic Evolution Simplified
http://www.the-scientist.com/community/posts/list/240/122.page#4427
Gravity Is The Monotheism Of The Cosmos
http://www.the-scientist.com/community/posts/list/260/122.page#4887
EOTOE, Embarrassingly obvious TOE, expanding the horizon beyond Darwin And Einstein
http://www.molecularfossils.com/2010/05/formal-test-of-theory-of-universal.html
93.172.175.72 (
talk) 07:57, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
There is some confusion. The argument of tautology is not about Evolution as a whole, just natural selection as possibly being incomplete or needing to be refined. It is even admitted by scientists that they do not understand what drives natural selection. It would be an arguement in formal logic whether or not natural selection even has a drive, or if the theory is complete but this does not mean that creationism is by default an accurate theory and it seems that whoever has taken charge of this page is convinced that this is the case and is not giving the arguement any credit at all. This is what makes it a paradox is that no one can come to a real conclusion except by consensus which in formal logic is not good enough. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.67.86.44 ( talk) 06:04, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
I so don't want to get involved in this discussion. I would however like to bring to someone's attention that 71.237.141.241 seems to have snuck in an edit that reverses the previous meaning of a paragraph. They appear to have done this on a number of related websites as well as the odd bit of section blanking to remove criticisms of religious concepts. 58.96.94.12 ( talk) 03:33, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
The new section had an opening paragraph which misrepresented Darwin, so I've removed it:
For a start, Darwin didn't observe the finches competing and diversifying, the famous
Galapagos finches were shown to have speciated by Gould who only studied them after Darwin's return to England. The example of
peppered moth evolution didn't show competition between moths, it showed differential bird predation depending on how well the moths were camouflaged. Darwin himself meant the "struggle for existence" in a wide sense, including struggle against the environment as well as against other organisms. As for whether there's a larger evolutionary scale, that seems to be in some dispute: speciation is the main focus of evolutionary biology.
I've left the Sahney et al. argument in, but have made it clear that this is one paper: more would be needed to overturn the evolutionary understanding of natural selection, whether phrased as survival of the fittest or not. .
dave souza,
talk 20:27, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
Could someone add a short timetable when the first four editions were published, before his fifth book was published? I need to find out for how long Drawin did NOT use the term "survival of the fittest", as this was a term coined by Spencer. 84.112.136.52 ( talk) 22:02, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Is it necessary to introduce Shermer in this article as, "Skeptic Society founder and Skeptic magazine publisher Dr. Michael Shermer". Wikipedia isn't a master of ceremonies, introducing a keynote speaker. - Checking the checkers ( talk) 12:34, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
Current searches bring up no reference to this issue, but in the past I have read that later in life, Darwin expressed regret that he had adopted the phrase. I remember one such comment cited a letter written by Darwin, perhaps to a son. Can anyone throw any light on this? It would be an informative addition to the page if true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.172.41.108 ( talk • contribs) 23:32, 26 July 2015
This edit caught my eye, and pointed up this subtopic for me. I'm no topical expert, but it seems to me that the cited supporting source does not support the assertion, "there is little evidence that competition has been the driving force in the evolution of large groups" ( this supports that assertion better). Rather, the source cited contrasts (aquatic) species in species-saturated environment with (tetrapod) species in a less saturated environment. Also, if this is (from the edit summary) "Interpreted as expressing a biological theory", it seems to me that WP:DUE urges mention of other viewpoints (e.g., possibly, as expressed here vs. here. I also stumbled across this, which I found interesting but didn't think it was directly on point here). Apologies if this comment was a time waster. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 19:40, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
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The opening paragraph seems to have degraded over time and it shows a serious misunderstanding of the phrase "Survival of the fittest." Firstly, it focuses on "biological fitness" which was not the meaning of "fittest" when the phrase was coined, nor is it the meaning used by modern biologists when they say "Survival of the fittest." In addition, the third sentence says a Darwinian interpretation relates to biological fitness, which isn't supported by the references to Darwin throughout the rest of the article. I looked up the edit that added "In Darwinian terms" and it replaced the phrase "In terms of biological fitness" with no citation, of course. https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Survival_of_the_fittest&diff=prev&oldid=663926337
I believe the opening paragraph should either just be the first sentence to avoid confusing the meaning of "fit", or there should be some brief introduction to the original meaning of the phrase and how the phrase is commonly used today to mean something different. User Mondin describes the original meaning of "fit" nicely in the Talk section "Misunderstanding survival of the fittest" created on 16:42, 22 February 2009 (UTC).
The version of the opening paragraph that existed before the change that is linked to above demonstrates such a discussion of the various meanings of the phrase. I've reproduced it here: "Survival of the fittest" is a phrase that originated from an evolutionary theory as a way of describing the mechanism of natural selection. It is more commonly used today in other contexts, to refer to a supposed greater probability that "fit" as opposed to "unfit" individuals will survive some test. In these contexts, "fit" refers to "best adapted to the current environment," which differs from common notions of the binary 'fit' and 'unfit.'[citation needed] These ideas are not related to the biological concept of fitness (defined as reproductive success) which has led to popular misconceptions about the meaning of the phrase. In terms of biological fitness, the phrase is best understood as "Survival of the form that will leave the most copies of itself in successive generations."