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Please note: From here and throughout, I am using the the word "Populism" here in the academic, political science sense, not in a colloquial or pejorative sense.
I see that in Talk:Sinn Féin/Archive 10#Left-wing Populist, FDW777's view is (forgive me if this is a clumsy summary) that sources must state that Populism is an ideology, and that the same sources must state that populism is part of Sinn Féin's ideology. Scolaire's view is that news sources, particularly the opinions of editors, are not sufficient sources to make that claim. In response to both these views, I present the following academic sources asserting that populism is ideological, and that populism is apart of Sinn Féin's ideology:
Many of these sources discuss the populism of Sinn Féin in a very dry political science, data-driven way. Some exceptions are Phelan and Hayden, who, writing in a more political analysis style, make the argument that Sinn Féin's ideology of left-wing populism is an ideological backlash to " Neoliberalism". Not only are they not using the term "populism" here pejoratively, they are using the term "populism" in a supportive sense. Similarly, Volker Best ascribes very specific policy positions by European populists before suggesting that populists in Europe are actually a wave of democratic reformers (in a sense), before citing Sinn Féin as that force in Ireland. Otjes and Louwerse very specifically discuss Populism as an ideology and then go on to cite Sinn Féin as specific international example of left-wing populism from their Dutch perspective. The exact same pattern is seen in Bíró-Nagy, Győri, Kadlót from the Hungarian viewpoint.
These sources (plus an additional one by Richard Dunphy that I don't know if I should throw in or not) make a distinction between left-wing populism and left-wing nationalism, and specifically say that while SF is both of those things, People Before Profit/Solidarity would be an example of a group that is left-wing populist but not left-wing nationalist.
Another view I saw raised is the notion that "Populism" in-of-itself is not an "Ideology". Well, that can be a legitimate view, but I don't believe it to be the consensus across Wikipedia. Besides the fact that Wikipedia has a dedicated article to Populism, it further splits this into the narrower definitions of Left-wing populism and Right-wing populism. Both the leads and bodies of these articles refer to them as "Ideologies". Additionally, the seems to numerous articles of significance where populism and its variants has been added to the infobox. Some examples include:
And in additional to all of that, Category:Populism contains dozens of political parties of both the left and right variants. It seems to be the case that "Populism" is used right across Wikipedia to help define political parties and I don't see a strong reason why Sinn Féin should be excluded.
If I was to include some information from the above sources about SF being Left-wing populist in the body of the article ( Sinn Féin#Policy and ideology), and then included left-wing populism in the infobox, would this overcome your previous concerns? CeltBrowne ( talk) 23:43, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
I don't see any evidence for this.
@ CeltBrowne: you need to understand that Wikipedia is not a democracy, additionally just because certain individuals have thus far declined to participate in a rehashing of the same discussion ad infinitum does not mean consensus has changed. StairySky ( talk) 10:33, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the infobox of Sinn Féin list Left-wing populism as one of the ideologies of the party? relisted by CeltBrowne ( talk) 19:37, 30 August 2022 (UTC), originally raised by CeltBrowne ( talk) 12:40, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
CeltBrowne's sources for asserting that left-wing populism is an ideology of Sinn Féin
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Academic
Journalistic
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Furthermore, I'll briefly note it is completely par for the course that the Infobox of a political party should note populism as an ideology, as demonstrated by articles such as Republican Party (United States), People's Party – Movement for a Democratic Slovakia, United Socialist Party of Venezuela, Movement for Socialism (Bolivia), Pim Fortuyn List, Alliance for the Future of Austria, Danish People's Party, Vlaams Belang, Forza Italia, Lega Nord, Five Star Movement, Syriza, Fianna Fáil. CeltBrowne ( talk) 12:48, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
As far as I know there is no broad consensus on whether 'populism', especially 'left-wing populism', is an actual ideology. I don't see any evidence for thisper StairySky above. I would argue that 'populism', of whatever flavour is a political style rather than an ideology - where ideology means a set of core - fairly immutable - beliefs, ideals and principles. The fact that it is included in some other parties is an OTHERSTUFF argument. Sinn Féin may or may not be widely seen as populist and is certainly left-of-centre economically, but what core beliefs or policies does 'populist' involve? What does 'populist' tell you about what the party believes or aspires to achieve? Pincrete ( talk) 06:04, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
we define populism as Albertzale and McDonnell (2007) do, as an approach which ‘pits a virtuous and homogenous people against a set of elites and dangerous 'others'[1]
The utopian impulse of left populism conceptualizes “the people” as a site of internal differences and heterogeneity – difference is something to be affirmed [and challenges] the rather convenient depiction of populism as the name for a blanket, essentially unthinking, form of anti-establishment politics[2]
Our contribution assumes a symbiotic relationship between ‘populism’ and several ‘host ideologies’ thus deviating from the purist view of simply focusing on anti-elitism.[3]. If that is the case, labelling Sinn Féin as left-wing populist is not very helpful for the reader and just leaves an unpleasant impression of bias. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 17:30, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
@
Pincrete:
but what core beliefs or policies does 'populist' involve? What does 'populist' tell you about what the party believes or aspires to achieve?
From the sources I listed above:
Sinn Fein also showed the possibility of progressive populist politics at a time when traditional liberal politics has become centrist. The party campaigned for restoring and expanding the public health service, jobs and social programs for those left behind in the neoliberal “Celtic Tiger” economy.
So he's attributing support for public services and social programmes to their "progressive populism". The Phelan source, amongst other things, contains a quote from Sinn Féin ideologue Eoin O'Broin which is also illuminating and follows a similar line to Hayden:
"Sinn Féin’s political project is truly populist”, Ó Broin suggests, “but a populism that is democratic, egalitarian and progressive”. “[We] seek to mobilise in support of a New Republic in which popular sovereignty is restored and political and economic power returned to where it rightly belongs, in the hands of the people”
So we see there a very clearly defined vision of what a populist Ireland would look like in O'Broin's mind.
So, as you can see, these sources are making the case that populism is not just a style of doing politics, but also a set of beliefs that produce certain policies and ideas of what the ideal democracy should look like. CeltBrowne ( talk) 07:46, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
Most scholars of populism agree that its ideological basis stems from the juxtaposition of a corrupted elite against a voiceless people. While this is not the sole defining characteristic, the overwhelming majority of scholars agree that it plays a major role. In his widely-cited paper, the popular zeitgeist, one of the most important works of contemporary populism research, the Dutch researcher, Cas Mudde, sums up the phenomenon as follows “populism is an ideology which states that society splits up into two antagonistic groups- the rotten elite and the pure masses. Populists think that politics should represent the general will of the people”. Kriesi & Pappas believe that on the level of communication, populism as an ideology articulates itself in clear-cut discursive clichés, serving to define the enemies and strengthen the community of the friends
Populist policy is being represented in Ireland by Sinn Fein, with the biggest Irish Catholic left nationalist party receiving 17% of the votes last spring.
The key features of populism are clearly pointed out in the definition of populism put forward by Mudde (2004, p. 543), which we adopt:‘populism is an ideology that considers society to be ultimately separated into two homogeneous and antagonistic groups, “the pure people” versus “the corrupt elite”, and which argues that politics should be an expression of the volonté générale (general will) of the people’. Most scholars agree that populism has ‘a chameleonic quality’ (Taggart, 2000): it can be combined with different political positions and be used by politicians with different ideologies. Some describe populism as an ideology with an ‘empty heart’ (Taggart, 2000), and stress its thin or partial nature (Stanley, 2008). The notion of populism as a thin ideology is borrowed from Michael Freeden (1996), who proposes that some ideologies are not comprehensive and can therefore be combined with other political ideologies. Many scholars subscribe to the idea that populism can be attached to other political ideas and positions (Albertazzi and McDonnell, 2008; Jagers and Walgrave, 2007; Lucardie and Voerman, 2012; Mudde, 2004; Stanley, 2008; Taggart, 2000). Populism concerns only the relationship between the people and the elite. Who belongs to the elite or the people depends on the orientation of the populist. Left-wing populism is characterised by an emphasis on socio-economic issues (March, 2007, p. 74). Left-wing populists often claim that the political elite only look after the interests of the business elite and neglect the interests of the common working man (Mudde, 2007). Examples include Die Linke in Germany, Sinn Féin in Ireland and the Socialist Party in the Netherlands (Hakhverdian and Koop, 2007, p. 408; March, 2011, p. 118).
In his most recent work Mudde (2007) offers a ‘maximum definition’ which focuses on three core ideological features. This approach is useful, as it is based on relatively stable ideology rather than party policy which will be time and country specific (Mair and Mudde 1998)....The third feature is Populism, which usually pits a ‘a virtuous and homogenous people against a set of elites and dangerous ‘others’’ (Albertazzi and McDonnell 2007: 3). Populist parties tend to see themselves as outsiders to their country’s political system, and argue that they represent the opinion of the ‘man on the street’ as opposed to a liberal elite, which may be linked to an ‘outgroup’, and which dominates politics and policy making with what might be seen as significant failures in policy leading to societal breakdown and increasing corruption. This might lead to anti-statism and thus contradict some interpretations of authoritarianism. However, the idea that there is an exclusive ‘ingroup’ which is virtuous and should be protected runs through these coherent core ideological features...
...The Old New Populists in Town: Sinn Féin and Left-Wing Populism: If policy success meant that by the 2000s Fianna Fáil was merely dipping into the populist toolbox (McDonnell 2007: 210) with occasional forays into euroscepticism, had populism effectively left Irish politics? O'Malley (2008) and McDonnell (2007) have both argued that Sinn Féin largely took up the space that we might have expected a populist party to occupy. In fact O'Malley (2008) argues that it is a populist nationalist party, but that the nature of Irish nationalism makes it difficult for such a party to engage in anti-immigrant rhetoric. He shows that some of its supporters hold views consistent with this form of nationalism...
...But the recent electoral success of left-wing parties and actors in Ireland is in part due to their opposition to taxes and charges. The relabeling of several parties so as to deemphasize their ideology and emphasize their anti-elite bona fides is clear evidence of their use of populism. The continued implementation of the Troika’s ‘austerity’ policies by the Fine Gael/Labour government negotiated by the previous administration created the perception of an out-of-touch political elite who had developed an entrenched ‘corrupt’ relationship with a banking and EU elite to put their interests ahead of the Irish people’s. The implementation of new unjust and unfair property and water taxes was the embodiment of this corruption in the Irish political elite and was utilised as a populist issue for electoral success by Sinn Féin and other parties.
I meant a quote that said it straight out, as opposed to "populist issues", "populist policies" or "populist party".
Inclusion of something in the infobox does not depend on whether it can be sourced, but on consensus, and there doesn't seem to be a consensus for adding left-wing populism, or any kind of populism, to the Ideology field of the infobox, and adding another 22 sources doesn't change that.
Sources are everything on Wikipedia.I disagree. First of all, WP:V and WP:RS say that a fact can't be added to the article unless it is verifiable, not that everything that is verifiable must be added; second, those policies are intended for article text, not for infoboxes. The exact criterion for what does and doesn't go into the infobox? Consensus. Honestly. "Decisions on Wikipedia are primarily made by consensus, which is accepted as the best method to achieve Wikipedia's goals". Making decisions is not about everybody producing sources, with the editors with the most sources "winning"; it is about making constructive arguments that are consistent with Wikipedia policies. I repeat that everybody in this discussion has done that, obviously including you (let's ignore your elegant proof of Godwin's law ).
Additionally, as Gitz and the sources point out, it's often used negatively, or to draw equivalence with extreme politics (far-left or far-right)". I know that source you quoted is resistant to comparing Sinn Féin to other left-wing populist parties, but I promise you the vast bulk of what I've listed have none of the same reservations, and the vast bulk of them are not using the term "Populist" as a pejorative. In fact, many of them, including the one I've just added [4], are in fact praising Sinn Féin for their populism, particularly the fact that they do not embrace anti-immigration policies or rhetoric. And another one of my sources [5] even addresses this reluctance to call Sinn Féin populist by noting that while Populism sometimes has negative connotations internationally, this is not necessarily the case within Ireland itself. It's perhaps unfortunate (At least for my argument) that I placed that source you quoted as #2 on my list when it's not tonally in line with the rest of my sources. Secondly, you said that
The infobox is a summary of accepted facts about the party. Unless a political party is widely accepted as running on a populist policy platform, and a type of populism as being an underpinning ideology, we should avoid listing it as an ideology in the infobox; I think despite the reservations of some users, actually my sources indicate that it is widely accepted (academically and journalistically) that Sinn Féin runs on a left-wing populist policy platform (demonstrated by things such as anti-austerity, EU-critical, and anti-cronyism policies). The Brown Political Review actually breaks this down very well and I'm rather annoyed I didn't come across it previously.
Hi all, I was considering adding 'mé féiner' to the 'See also' section. Before I do and someone takes it down, would it be considered encyclopaedic enough? It's relevant after all and it already has a Wiktionary article about it: (Ireland, derogatory) Someone who acts from self-interest, rather than the common good or the national interest. From Irish mé féin (“myself”) + -er. After Sinn Féiner, supporter of Sinn Féin. Regards, Ridiculopathy ( talk) 22:57, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
To explain my revert here: Cumann na nGaedheal and the Dungannon Clubs amalgamated in early 1907 to form the Sinn Féin League, which in turn amalgamated with the National Council in late 1907 to form what would become Sinn Féin; the foundation of Sinn Féin was then backdated to the National Council convention of 1905. This is explained in History of Sinn Féin#Early years, but is missing from this article. Scolaire ( talk) 14:52, 13 January 2023 (UTC)