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what's the source for the widespread contemporary embarrassment at Menzies's "did but see her" line? or for the indifference at HM's 1963 tour?
Look, If Menzies said this - and I beleive that he did - then leave it in. But write about it neutrally. References to "Australia cringing" is NOT NPOV. Arno 09:58, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Is his name pronounced "Mingis" oder "Menzess". See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4595228.stm 84.61.196.226 16:42, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
This edit removed the ref to "Ming the Merciless" with the comment "undoubtedly, you need a source for that". The correct way to ask for sources is to annotate with {{fact}} or a similar template. Or to discuss on the talk page. Please review WP:Bold, which says "please note: 'be bold in updating pages' does not mean that you should make large changes or deletions to long articles on complex, controversial subjects with long histories" and suggests some ways to proceed.
One source is Tasmanian Federation online which says "Known as Ming the Merciless because of brilliant legal mind". I can't find the reference to Flash Gordon quickly and do not have access here to the two biographies quoted but they should be checked before the comment is removed. Hence I have rolled back.-- A Y Arktos\ talk 21:31, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I know we follow an official government site on this, but still, why isn't he numbered 12th and 17th? Biruitorul 02:21, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
The convention is to number each PM once only. It means he was the 12th man to be PM, not that his was the 12th ministry - ministries have a separate numbering system. Adam 02:41, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
I think that saying Menzies "did his best" during the early years of World War II is biased reading of his actions. His unwarranted months is the UK "meeting" with officials is unmentioned here, (well, removed) without explanation or justification. mangonorth
Menzies did not have a record 17 year term. His second term in office was from December 1949 to January 1966, in all about 16 years and slightly less than a month. If you include his first term, it becomes about 18 and a half years.
Merric
Anyone who has read the article will understand what the sentence means. (Save us from pedants.) Adam
Its not pedantic, it's accurate.
Merric
About the Menzies'es decision not to enrol in World War I :
Ithe statement you made to me in which you said : "You have twice inserted this: "Since the family has made enough of a sacrifice to the war with the enlistment of these brothers..." Firstly, many families lost three or more sons in the war without complaining, as Menzies' opponents pointed out. neither Menzies nor his family ever put this forward as the reason why Menzies had not enlisted - in fact Menzies never gave a public explanation at all, he merely said it was for "private reasons." So this excuse is your opinion, not a fact. It is not "NPOV" to insert your idea about why he didn't enlist."
Whilst I cannot recall the precise source in which this "enough of a sacrifice" line was made, (it wasn't mine) I have come up with the following.
"World War I broke out during the years when Menzies was pursuing the law course at Melbourne University. It was considered at the time a fair thing if two boys out of a family of four went to the war. Menzies's two elder brothers enlisted and went overseas after a family conference in which it was agreed that Menzies should not enlist but should complete his law course. Compulsory military training within Australia was then in operation and Menzies had become a lieutenant in the Citizen Forces. He continued to hold this commission until his period of compulsory service ended on his attaining the age limit." Sir Percy Joske, Sir Robert Menzies, 1894-1978 - a new, informal memoir, 1978 p 18.
It is not NPOV to use that same old just-barely-short-of "Menzies was a coward" line as a statement of fact. It is NPOV to allow the family's version, or some suitable statement in defence of it all, to go in.
I cannot understand your other problems with what I added. Possibly it was influenced by this issue. It is not necessary to have multiple links to the same year - you must have had 1941 in that article about three or four times. The 36 faceless men issue did exist - are you saying that is false?
I am willing to discuss these matters with you, but simply deleting them without discussion or explanation is not on. Arno 04:21, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
(Having said that, my opinion is that Joske is wrong: it was not considered a "fair thing" for third sons not to enlist. Otherwise there would not have been the widespread anger against Menzies among ex-servicemen that there was when he entered politics in the 1920s, and again in 1939. Perhaps you are unaware that Joske was a Liberal MP and an old friend of Menzies, or that he also was a law student who didn't serve in the war, despite being of military age.)
On the other matters
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By reverting my changes you have re-inserted several ungrammatical sentences and at least one clear error of fact into the article. Since you won't let me correct them, you can now figure them out for yourself. Adam 04:48, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
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Why is it that there seems to be absolutely zero pictures of Ming anywhere at all before 1939? pictureaustralia.org has 109 pages but do you think there's any before 1939? It really is a pity. The collection of images of PMs is getting pretty good now. A youthful picture of Australia's longest serving PM sure wouldn't go astray. Timeshift 01:37, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't believe this could be considered an institution, but I don't particularly care enough to fight to have it removed. Timeshift ( talk) 01:30, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
These edits have several issues... keep, fix, or revert? Timeshift ( talk) 03:52, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
This user wonders why Menzies' infobox mentions the reigning British monarch during his time in office whereas most/all other Australian PM infoboxes don't.
211.30.215.176 ( talk) 08:33, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
I replaced most instances of "Sir Robert" with "Menzies". This is consistent with the Manual of Style and other articles (see Winston Churchill, for example). Wikipeterproject ( talk) 11:52, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
The article contains many point of view edits, such as this uncited sentence: "He managed to live down the failures of his first term in office, and to rebuild the conservative side of politics from the nadir it hit in 1943." Accordingly, it needs a significant cleanup, with citations to reliable secondary sources. This is a big job, requiring significant research, and I don't have time at the moment, but I not the need for it here and hope someone can help! Wikipeterproject ( talk) 11:56, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm wanting to track down exactly when he said this, and in what context the remark was made. Or did he say it more than once? Was he talking about himself specifically, or about Australians generally? -- (Jack of Oz =) 202.142.129.66 ( talk) 02:58, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
And Canada. En route from London back home to Australia he extensively stopped over in Ottawa where the Liberal Prime Minister William Lyon Mackenzie King was serving his 17 1/2 years as head of government, not dissimilar to Menzies' eventual term as PM in Australia. Given the community of interest by Australian and Canadian heads of government during the second year of World War II, virtually identical constitutional structures and situation as sovereign members of the (then) British Commonwealth and relationship with Great Britain and the Crown, plus Menzies' and King's virtually identical ethnicity and religious affiliation -- clearly vast interests in common (plus the fact that Menzies was an Australian lawyer at a time when both Australia and Canada's ultimate legal appeal was to London, where commonly judges from each others' countries presided over such hearings; indeed, back then differences apart from climate were substantially cosmetic, the 1901 Australian constitution inserting a hyphen in Governor General, changing "province" to "state" and "lieutenant-goveror" to "governor"; even today one mostly must merely remember to address a court justice as "Your Honour" rather than "My Lord" or "My Lady") -- his lengthy stopover in Ottawa surely bears mention. Masalai ( talk) 00:49, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
The main text says:
:
But what does "picked up" mean? Does it mean a gain of new seats compared to some baseline? Or does it mean won in absolute terms? If it is the first, then of course the newly formed (but high profile) party would win a lot of new seats off baseline of zero. And of course the old party would "pick up" only a handful.
On the other hand, if it means that in Labor had only 4 seats in the 1949 parliament, then that is a truly amazing historical fact, which should be emphasized more clearly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.104.60.142 ( talk) 23:32, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
It's not a swing, just like in by-elections where a major party doesn't contest. If labor didn't hold all those new seats, how did those seats swing to the Libs? I've reworded the section. Any concerns? Timeshift ( talk) 11:36, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
As E-II-R's coronation was 2 June 1953, why was the change of title from KC to QC in 1952? Pdfpdf ( talk) 09:57, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
It was also because of the way he pronounced his surname; it was phonetically closer to Mingzies than to Menzies.
Regards, BenAveling 07:35, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
This is an old and tiresome argument. It is true that the original Scots pronunciation of Menzies is "Mingus," but the Australian Menzieses never pronounced it that way, and that is not the origin of the nickname Ming, which derives from Ming the Merciless, who was popularised by a film in 1936 just as Menzies was rising to prominence. It was probably reinforced by people pointing out the similarity to the Scots name. Adam 10:23, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
I just want to point out that Highland identity and Scots language are incongruous. Highlanders spoke (and in some cases, still speak) Ghàidhlig, aka Scots-Gaelic, a Goidelic Celtic language. Scots is very specifically a Lowland linguistic feature and a member of the Germanic language family. Is this something that could be corrected in the body of the entry? If PM Menzies was both proud of his Highland heritage and wanted to use Scots pronunciation because of his own personal confusion of the distinct groups, then could that at least be explained as his own error rather than that of the article contributors? Smaddock ( talk) 12:38, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
"Scots" here means "Scottish", not "pertaining to the Scots language". My understanding is that the traditionalist Menzies did point out the original pronunciation of his name (but not insist on it) and that this chimed in with the Ming the Merciless character.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 07:34, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
In 1958, Menzies appointed his cousin Douglas Menzies to the High Court. Regardless of the merits of the individual concerned, a PM appointing a close relative to such a high profile post would certainly attract some nepotistic comment these days. Did the press or the Opposition of the time have anything to say about the matter? -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 23:36, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
The text implies that Billy Hughes was temporarily PM before Fadden was elected, but this doesn't seem to appear elsewhere in Wikipedia (e.g., on the list of PMs). So did the Little Digger get up again as PM??? The point is that Frank Forde was Australia's shortest serving PM because he held office in the interregnum between Curtin's death and Chifley's election by Labor Caucus. So was there an interregnum here???-- Jack Upland ( talk) 10:45, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
Hang on a minute. Firstly, with all due respect, please don't cite this Wikipedia page as a source when we're trying to improve it!!! Secondly, the PM is just a convention, and the convention is that the leader of the party (or Coalition) that controls the House of Reps is the PM and is duly sworn in. Give me another example when the party leader is not PM. If what you are saying is true, this is a serious anomaly. Arguably, Menzies would have been a PM but NOT head of government. He would not have confidence on the floor of the house and Australia could have been thrown into the dangerous situation of having no PM, or even worse not being sure who was PM. And this was in wartime!!! A practical example would be if a crisis emerged in this interregnum. What if Hughes and Menzies have totally different views on what to do??? Do you (or anyone else) have a reputable source that explains this anomaly???-- Jack Upland ( talk) 19:57, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
I don't think you're thinking it through. We're not talking about a time lag here.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 01:57, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
In a wartime situation it's not a hypothetical, it's a serious risk to national security. No wonder the Liberals have airbrushed this episode from their official history.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 01:23, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
The Australian historian David Day has suggested that Menzies hoped to replace Churchill as British Prime [sic], and that he had some support in Britain for this. Other Australian writers, such as Gerard Henderson, have rejected this theory.
I don't see how this is relevant to our article on Menzies. This is a theory that apparently only one historian has. I could dream up any wacko theory about Menzies (or any plausible one, for that matter), but surely the mere existence of my theory does not mean it merits mention here. Does it? JackofOz 06:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
He didn't invent the theory, many have suggested it previously, and I for one think it has some substance to it. Read Judith Brett on Menzies attitudes to Britain and his jealousy of Churchill. As to relevance, Menzies' long stay in Britain, and his belief that he needed to go back to Britain, led directly to his fall as PM. Adam 06:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Because's he's now the leading historian of the period and has done the most work on it. Adam 07:23, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Any suggested reading where Day brings up the topic? If it's "true" it's very interesting and should stay in the topic. Jockmonkey 09:20, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't think anyone apart from Day has ever suggested this as a bona fide theory. Gerard Henderson gave him a good kicking in media watch dog about it too. The fact Day can't cite any other source for this apart from his own research strikes me that he just made it up. 59.167.215.137 ( talk) 03:50, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
I notice someone cut this bit out after I added it, perhaps I am missing something here but this was a big part of Menzies' political life in 1943. The Brisbane Line controversy dogged Menzies right up until anti-communist motives moved to the forefront in Australian politics and I think needs to be mentioned. -- kudz75 02:04, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I cut it out because it's innaccurate and POV. There was no "Brisbane Line strategy," infamous or otherwise, it was all a beat-up by Ward and the anti-Menzies press. It was an issue at the 1943 election but in no way decisive, since Ward was widely and rightly regarded as a ratbag. Adam 14:58, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Many people thought there was such a strategy. Some people still do.
Regards, BenAveling 07:33, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
I think it's commonly accepted that belief in this was widespread. Menzies certainly claimed he'd never devised or approved of such a strategy, and that indeed, it never existed, but it pursued him all the same. It was a decisive issue, and one he felt strongly enough about to again try to clear his name in his memoirs. It's definately relevant to any comprehensive article on Menzies, even if it's simply mentioned that many did (and do) believe it existed, and that he strenuously denied that it did. El Castro 03:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following text:
Reference: "Interview with David Bird, author of Nazi Dreamtime". Retrieved 2012-11-13. In this ABC Radio National interview, author David Bird claims that the information concerning Menzies' pro=Nazi sympathies is not new (further information can be found Bird's book Nazi Dreamtime (2012)).
The notion that Menzies was a Nazi sympathiser is disputed by the Liberal party and by Menzies's daughter. I suggest this text needs reworking with additional references and context to provide more balance. Landscape goats ( talk) 01:09, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
I have removed this:
This is distorted historical hindsight. Japan was not part of WW2 at this point (i.e., not at war with the British Empire, including Australia). Was Menzies alert to the Japanese threat? I don't think so. After all, he earned the nickname "Pig Iron Bob" during his battle with the Communist-led waterfront union which was trying to black ban the export of iron ore to Japan. On coming to power Curtin insisted on withdrawing Australian troops from Europe, reversing Menzies' policy. One of the reasons that the Japanese "sneak attack" on Pearl Harbour, Hong Kong, and Singapore was so successful is that the threat did not loom very large in people's minds. Moreover, WW2 was not about defence of Australia. Australian troops fought in defence of the British Empire, whether in Singapore or in the Sahara.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 22:41, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
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And should be removed. ChrisPer ( talk) 23:55, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
But some are still there. Probably the whole content should be removed and replaced with text based on John Howard's book.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 12:22, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
There are some odd passages in the text. Menzies visits Germany 1939. He would have been appeasing, and not strutting around in jack boots. The economic growth of the 1950s was nearly all in the US, and was not global. Britain did not completely end war-time rationing until 1954! The text is implying that Menzies had nothing to do with the economic rise of the 1950s. My opinion is that the Oz rise was due to an increasing trade with the US, which was a product of Curtin's term and WW2. Menzies and his pro-British trade policies may have acted as a small brake on the economy during 1948 to '55. His purpose was to minimize the Reserve Bank's outflow of limited US dollars when airlines and industry wanted to buy American hardware. English pounds were easier to earn once the butter and pears started to flow. 210.185.75.105 ( talk) 12:43, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
This pages portraits and photos have been deleted and so, will need replacements. Though I do not know why the external links were systematically deleted, but I motion that this biographical article is of significant importance to Australian politics and therefore requires images.
It is quite frustrating that no-one has discovered and fixed this yet. Despite my novice skills with Wikipedia, I will try when I have the spare time.
Puuugu ( talk) 01:38, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
Ref 3 does *not* state that the family only wanted two sons at war. It states that as a "possibility" only, ie ref 3 is just speculation, not fact. Menzies studied law from 1913 on wards, and it was/is a 4-year degree. He graduated in early 1917. It was normal for students to finish university courses during WW1, as parental permission was always sought for students. It was also normal during ww2 if the degree was something useful, such as chemical engineering or medicine. I would like to see a ref to his brothers histories, rather than just digging up info at the AWM. Such records DO NOT tell the whole story. Menzies whips up deranged rage in leftist lunatics, and he gets blamed for everything form the Rise of Imperial Japan, to the Emperor of Antarctica invading the country with a fleet of invisible spaceships. 27.33.247.110 ( talk) 06:35, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
I can do that, but i'll bet it gets changed back. Talk pages are better in that the guff can be exposed. Menzies never held a commission (under 21) as tertiary students then, and still do, have a rank of officer cadet. It would have been lost when he graduated in early 1917 and did not subsequently enlist. The article seems to deliberately leave out important dates. Refs 7 and 8, the brothers' enlistment papers, count as original research which Wikip strictly does not allow. They must be changed to reference a source, or include one, such as a Melb Uni mini biog (something at least internally reviewed), that references them. The article claims that enlistment was widely popular in WW1. Well, the two referenda for conscription were turned down at the time, so at least 1/3 of the population didn't like the war. In fact, as the war dragged on it became less popular. Keith Murdoch's press were wildly in favour, no doubt because he had invested millions of pounds in the 10%-compounding British war bonds being issued privately via JP Morgan & Stanley at the time. Hearst got a lot richer that way too. 27.33.247.110 ( talk) 00:17, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
from http://www.thesydneyinstitute.com.au/wanted-dead-or-alive-confirmed-deductions-in-biographies/ an article about bollocks in biographies:
The WP:OR (unfounded claims) and WP:RS (reliable sources) policies appear to be contravened in this article by anecdotal defense of Day's very strong but unsupported claims. ChrisPer ( talk) 21:38, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
Political subterfuge of that calibre is just about impossible to prove. It's all done behind closed doors. Unfortunately to ignore such rumors is to ignore 90% of politics. 210.185.75.105 ( talk) 12:19, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
I will actually start the discussion regarding this edit that I made. I'm frankly astounded that this is being disputed by a serious editor - I removed what was the largest paragraph in the "early federal politics" section, which was entirely composed of what a Labor MP said about him decades after his death, and then what others said in response, which was a huge violation of WP:UNDUE - it made it seem like his pro-appeasement views are a huge deal in Menzies scholarship and they emphatically are not. If this belongs anywhere (it doesn't), it would be in the legacy section - it is completely inappropriate to include this kind of lengthy he-said-she-said in the main part of a biography, especially from partisan people so long after his death. Frickeg ( talk) 19:40, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
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Menzies was appointed Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports 1965-78, see the wiki entry. I could add this to the text, but I believe that it should also be placed in boxes (e.g. predecessor, successor, &c.), a thing beyond my wiki-capability. His taking on this role engendered much comment in Australia at the time. Brunswicknic ( talk) 09:36, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
I noticed an edit changing Ben Chifley to Joseph Benedict Chifley. This may have been the names on his birth certificate, but he was and still is known as Ben Chifley. I have never seen him referred by those other names. Even the his wiki page uses Ben Chifley Brunswicknic ( talk) 11:04, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
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(copied from Archive 1)
In 1958, Menzies appointed his cousin
Douglas Menzies to the High Court. Regardless of the merits of the individual concerned, a PM appointing a close relative to such a high profile post would certainly attract some nepotistic comment these days. Did the press or the Opposition of the time have anything to say about the matter? --
Jack of Oz
[your turn] 23:36, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
(continued)
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