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This piece is hagiographic, glosses over serious issues, usually by accusing any critic of Robeson of nefarious intent. It glosses over Robeson's culpability for the support for what is considered by most sources to be a corrupt, tyrannical regime, among the very worst in human history. The author goes to great lengths to attack any critic of Robeson, but merely posits that Robeson was simply "duped", when his own statements often contradict this. This is almost purely a POV puff-piece, unworthy of an encyclopedia entry. DesScorp ( talk)
No it is not, the article is VERY balanced. It does not tow the anti-Robeson line which is obviously what you were hoping for. It DOES show many unflattering aspects to his involvement in being Marxist affiliated though despite the fact that much of his "knowledge of Soviet injustices" has not been verified properly, it IS there, so how biased can I actually be?? I did NOT posit that he was "duped", please reread. I said many liberal or centrist scholars believe that. He is roundly criticized and fairly judged without drama which is what most want from him-drama of a "black man who was duped"
Its obvious that ROBESON felt there was enough potentiality in the possibility of socialism as the destiny of mankind and later in its possible resurgence, to not become a negative influence. That's not a 'blind spot' that is a person standing by their beliefs ("wrong" or "just") just as many still live in and support the USA despite how much mass murder its been connected to domestically and abroad. One may not like it but that was who he was and its made very clear in the article and sub-articles. REMEMBER there were many other artists who supported the USSR/Stalin in a similar way but as they were or are WHITE they slip through the cracks of vilification. There is still a vast racist component central to Robeson's persecution in all forms of the media, US govt and intelligence community.
FBI and CIA files show Hoover and cronies were VERY concerned about his anti-colonialist work in Africa and Asia-it was also CLEARLY sighted by the State Department in his passport denial. Domestic civil rights and Union advocacy was a cause for their concern as much if not more so than his friendship with the USSR. Once again, in relation to Robeson's life, the USSR has been blown way out of proportion by centrist and right wing scholars for obvious reasons. If one wants to say that his good sense was eventually assailed on certain issues, as Martin Duberman maintains, it is still a POV. I can only explain to fans or detractors of Robeson that, with all it's defects, he saw no other country willing to work for change for oppressed peoples apart from Communist countries and HE made that clear countless times.
Like many he was shocked, according to Harry Francis, when the 20th party congress was revealed but he was by no means 'blind.' 'Blindness' is viewing his actions from a 21st century hindsight perspective with all we know now and without firstly looking at the reprehensible actions of the governments we all live and pay taxes in. Stacking up numbers of "who killed more than Hitler" does not change reality or make US or European citizens any less culpable than anyone else who stood by their beliefs. Catherine Huebscher ( talk · contribs) 15:12, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
My beliefs are not demonstrated here. My interpretation of the scholarly works on Robeson's life which I've studied for nearly fifteen years is what this is about. The fact that you may not agree with his life or choices does not make his history open to povs. He believed in many aspects of Marxism theory, numerous Communist countries and the concept of Socialism as the destiny of mankind. That's who he was. This article is about that not how you disagree with him and how, in your pov, he was "deluded". Catherine Huebscher ( talk · contribs) 12:21, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Agree with Descorp. It's hagiography and not remotely balanced. Should be flagged for lack of neutrality. Train60 ( talk) 04:42, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
Ok, agreed, there are flaws and imbalances so it is being cleaned up. Please read the alterations as I redit and make edits or suggestions. Thanks Catherine Huebscher ( talk · contribs) 12:21, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
To those who want the article to be worked on and improved, it would be helpful to add material and cites to the article as opposed to simply tagging it and/or discussing what you feel is no neutral it. There are many very, neutral and readable books about Robeson available on Amazon and for free at libraries. When I see non-Robeson discussion pages I see people comparing references and material. Ideally it would be better for the article if people brought references and verifiable material here to discuss in reagrds to the most controversial aspects. Catherine Huebscher ( talk · contribs) 5:21, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
I think after a survey of Robeson's history with visiting the USSR, his love of socialism and Russia and friendships with CP members it would be a good idea to provide a section with a few dozen bullet quotes/references from scholars/historians of all political backgrounds regarding Robeson's CP affiliations and views presented concisely with minimal background static. Similar to this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_conspiracy_theories Catherine Huebscher ( talk · contribs) 5:21, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
A not always perfectly clear independent.co.uk article on the then re-issued tapes from the Moscow concert says nothing at all about a tribute for or statement about Feffer at the Moscov concert, but of a Robeson tribute after the last song to late Mikhoels, which makes perfect sense: Feffer was not yet dead, so no tribute. It is not clear from the independent article, if the then published tapes were of the live concert or of the radio broadcast. Or if there was a direct live broadcast with the tribute and later censored re-broadcasts? If the tape was abridged, like the guardian says, how do we know what Robeson actually said or did at the Moscov theatre in 1949? -- Radh ( talk) 18:57, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
There are numerous eye witness/listener/USSR citizen accounts; Robinson's, Paul Robeson Jr. etc The Polish periodical, Kurjer Codzinney ,June 10, 1949 confirms via dated documentation the reception and the intro the song received as well. Robinson also has given a lengthy interview account of Robeson voicing his protest of anti-Semitic actions by the USSR that corroborates PR singing/speaking out in his book around the concert's time frame. Robinson was far from enamored with the USSR and wanting to leave so he's very far away from having a leftist bias. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Robinson_%28engineer%29 Catherine Huebscher ( talk · contribs) 4:12, 8 Novemeber 2009 (UTC)
I put the words in the cite link. It has been established by eye witnesses that he mentioned Feffer as well Mikhoels. Just singing the song was a middle finger huge statement. I'll hunt down other sources. I can quote Duberman, PR Jr. and others. In including it is not an attempt to absolve him anything negative in his history, only his obvious attempt to make a statement about his friend while on USSR soil that has been referenced for deacdes. We SHOULD include that no verbal record "exists" currently. (Though why would it have been erased in the first place if he never said anything controversial and why has it been referenced ad infinitum since the concert?) His actions to the US media via the purge denials were done as an attempt to save face for the USSR/world Communism AND for both self preservation and the preservation of anti-imperialism. Thus the reader can draw their own moral/historical conclusions. The Guardian interview with PR Jr. fleshes at least a few of those questions.
As an aside, some theorize (and I concur) that PR's insistence on being vocal ON Soviet soil about Soviet policy, eventually led to problems with officials post Stalin during his health breakdown in 1961. Antisemitism, as you know continued after Stalin. If the CIA were (most likely) involved with drugging both PR and his son then it is clear that lower tier USSR officials (double agents?) at the time were involved as well. None were too helpful, nor concerned about the outcome re: Robeson's suicide attempt, who he had been with him that night etc. PR Jr. when looking for answers was told VERY pointedly "not to meddle" and that "the Stalin era is over..." The KGB alone could have been behind it as well. Once you get very outspoken you become a target in any country. I would not be surprised if that came to light. For me I lean towards the CIA/Army intelligence because of the CIA documents and James Thornwell who was drugged under MKULTRA in almost an identical fashion to how I feel Robeson was two months prior. He too was Black, a very gifted student from a poor background and had a flawless army record. He may have been a test subject to see had what transpired with PR: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geoSP2GiGVg
In any case, PR had a connection with Russia that went far beyond Communism and that tends to get lost in the shuffle of all this.The ultimate purveyor of sussing out all that occurred will be someone who speaks both Russian and German (or who can afford a really great interpreter) going into the archives of both countries and doing some seriously extensive research and interviews. Catherine Huebscher ( talk · contribs) 4:12, 8 Novemeber 2009 (UTC)
There seems to be a Gus Hall pamphlet: Paul Robeson: An American Communist. Published by the CPUSA, 1988. Said to contain stuff like: "My own most recious moments with Paul were when I met him to accept his dues and renew his yearly membership in the CPUSA". So the Manning Johnson HUAC testimony from 1949 that Robeson indeed had been a member perhaps was true after all? But, as I have said before: membership in the party was never that big a deal for artists and celebrities. Brecht or Grosz were no members even in their most orthodox communist phase.-- Radh ( talk) 19:10, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
No. Gus Hall was an FBI informant. re: Conservapaedia, I helped them create an article that would reflect their bias but still contain fact and look credible despite bias and they turned it into a cartoon which is their right but it makes no real coherent historical sense even from a stance of trying to defend anti-Communism. For artistic whites it was all fun and games as they enjoyed white privilege. Which is why so many other whites with as much of an advocacy towrads the USSR/CPUSA Robeson recovered and had long careers. But for blacks it meant becoming even more of a non-person during the red scare, be you artist or union member or just a CP member; you could get lynched too. Robeson would have been jailed under the Smith act and died behind bars as he was so virulently hated by the white power supremacist structure (Rankin, Hoover, Dies, Bilbo, Truman, Dulles and too many others on Capitol Hill to name.) The surveillance on him was daily through much of the 50's and was stepped up as early as 1937. A status of health file is a rare addition to an FBI's file and he had one as early as the 40's. Doubt they could have missed 40 years of CP membership if they were able to get his notebooks and install a CIA contractor (Ari Kiev) as his "physician" He has never been re,aostely identified as a CP member. It an urban legend along with the Paris peace conference speech which in actuality does NOT mention the USSR in any context regarding "Negros fighting against Russia". Feel free to include it though if you feel you need and then I'll add what I just wrote for balance. -- Catherine Huebscher ( talk) 8:55, 8 November 2010 (UTC
I will try to find this out as it should go in the article. The party lost many black members during the cold war.-- Catherine Huebscher ( talk) 8:55, 9 November 2010 (UTC
Conservapedia writes: Pfeffer begged Robeson to tell the world the truth, pleading They're going to kill us. When you return to Amrica, you must speak out and save us. Their source is not Horowitz, but Tim Tzouliadis: The Forsaken: An American Tragedy in Stalin's Russia. Penguin Group, 2008, p. 268. -- Radh ( talk) 19:19, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
I wrote much of the Conservapedia page. Tzouliadis' sections on Robeson are mostly libel fiction and weasel words and he did zero research on Robeson within the USSR. The account you quote is Horowitz's but they are the same. I think there is enough sections regarding the CPUSA, Dies, HUAC, his last visit to the USSR and Ben Davis still unaccounted for that warrant more attention. What is available on Feffer is there. Horowitz has no veracity regarding his statements on Robeson. He was never close to the family nor even a casual acquaintance. Catherine Huebscher ( talk · contribs) 15:12, 8 Novemeber 2009 (UTC)
A left-wing person who credited Robeson with insisting on meeting Feffer is Arno Lustiger, who is known to everybody with any interest in the persecution of the Jews in the 20th century.-- Radh ( talk) 19:48, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
according to Paul Robeson Jr., he, himself is the only one who Paul Robeson ever talked about Feffer with. No one is contesting that they met or even the varying interpretations-they are what they are. Lustiger's came from one of the four sources already referenced.-- Catherine Huebscher ( talk · contribs) 15:12, 8 Novemeber 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. I had never heard of him and thank you for the name. I just raed a few of his pieces. He seems to be widely credibility and should be referenced.-- Catherine Huebscher ( talk · contribs) 9:02, 9 Novemeber 2009 (UTC)
Just for the record: I mistakenly thought Arno Lustiger had died a few years ago. Now I found out that he is still alive, still living in Frankfurt. It was his cousin, the Cardinal of Paris, who had died. Str1977 (talk) 10:00, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
I added in some of the Jackie article to see how it works Please do not delete the main article yet. In the later part of Robeson's relationship with the Soviet Union I added an important source who was Black American immigrant, Robert Robinson who knew Robeson and who is incidentally anti-Soviet. If it seem kind of "cloak and dagger" please consider that the little there is on Robeson's most likely falling out of favor and the possible reasons why it happened, followed by a controversial health break down is not available in one place- anywhere. It most likely contributed to the destruction of his health so its important. Tomorrow I plan to add the CPUSA and Ben Davis, purges and more HUAC and more cites. Agreed, I can't cover all the details but at least there is what could be an even handed survey all in one place. -- Catherine Huebscher ( talk · contribs) 11:13, 8 Novemeber 2009 (UTC)
That's the issue which I'll edit in , in the context with which Duberman mentions it. He says due to the time line RR has the wrong date (1961) and that it was a year earlier in 1960. Though RR was 100% it was that date. I'm trying to find a source who can confirm with PR's twice weekly radio broadcasts were removed at that time.-- Catherine Huebscher ( talk · contribs) 8:06, 8 Novemeber 2009 (UTC)
The 60/61 and 320-321. I had it transposed once as 1949 which it definitely was not. I'm inclined to believe him because Brezhnev came to power fairly soon after that and nationalism was back in. Also there is a glaring lack of any honors or even well wishes post 1961 for Robeson from USSR officials in any of the tributes etc that I've seen. Robeson may have been considered part of the old era. Another example is the mountain they named after him is no longer able to be located and has not long before the USSR ended. -- Catherine Huebscher ( talk) 11:29, 14 November 2010 (UTC
Not an "upsurge" like Stalin but not the reforms of NK. Robinson is a rare eye witness account with histories not often written by those who actually lived through it and by an anti-Soviet black person who immigrated to the USSR AND who knew PR and his brother in laws who had also immigrated with varying difficulties-another rarity. Duberman may be wrong on the date as well. Before the breakdown he had weeks of activity and singing. RR swore it was 1961 not 1960. Robeson had bi-weekly REGULAR shows broadcast nationwide and that's what RR said ended abruptly. There was a 70th birthday event held in his name afterwords in the USSR but that's it I'm not seeing the same lauding and lionizing after the events of 60-61. I'm trying to source it but clearly the GDR took up all the slack as their events/honours post 60/61 number well into the dozens while the USSR's do not.-- Catherine Huebscher ( talk) 9:09, 14 November 2010 (UTC
It's too well documented via eye witness accounts and needs to stay in. He spoke mostly about Feffer according the sources Duberman found. The Guardian article, as all British paper articles is not that well researched despite PR's participation, there are a few errors. I have included every single collegiate documentation that I can find and I'm awaiting the arrival of more books on PR. If that section goes then the ENTIRE meeting with Feffer should go as the latter is the subject of virtually nothing but undocumented conflicting hearsay-far more than the concert is which was attended by over 500 people and which has a censored audio and the song. Horowitz is responsible for most of what you read in all the "Forsaken" style books and right wing blogs about PR/Feffer and he has zero sources to cite, he was ten years old when it happened, he never knew the family and he's lied about other Leftist events in Radical Son, like camp Wo-Chi-Ca. He made it up.-- Catherine Huebscher ( talk) 10:27, 9 November 2010 (UTC
And what are Horowitz's sources? Zero. Nothing. He has been proven wrong an half a dozen Robeson facts and that is just the start of his lies about places like Camp Wo Chi ca. The entire meeting with Feffer can deleted with your logic. The live concert was not censored, the tapes were. PR Jr is the SOLE source of the meeting details and then right wingers embellished and lied about it adding their own outsourced elements. The concert has dozens of different references and eye witnesses. I will cite video testimony from USSR officials and historians from Paul Robeson documentaries. Horowitz has made things up about Robeson and then "Forsaken" scholars unwisely quoted him to their own folly. He's lied about the peace prize claiming Robeson accepted in the USSR from Stalin "himself" in Moscow, PR was a "CP member" , camp wo chi ca was "burning comic books."-- Catherine Huebscher ( talk) 10:27, 9 November 2010 (UTC
The Duberman biography is disliked by PR, Jr. and contains elements many of his friends disliked immensely so I'm not sure about this North Korea thing. Historians are sourced here though. PR, Jr gave only ONE account, his OWN, in interviews only until he published his own bio of his father in 2007. He gave an account to DUBERMAN and then Duberman used what HE thought was viable. Duberman's bio is about PR not an interview with PR, Jr. As for Feffer, it is the Right that latched on to PR Jr's accounts as if its some massive, big deal that shattered the world. They had a meeting. That is it. It can be removed entirely as far as I'm concerned or mentioned in passing with the concert which IS 100% verifiable. There are two videos with eye witness and historian's verifying the concert and his comments about the two friends so that's going in to the article. I have to watch the videos, transcribe etc.-- Catherine Huebscher ( talk) 10:27, 14 November 2010 (UTC
I'm just not seeing why all of that is relevant. What you wrote above is not different then what is in the article. This is not about Fast and what they all "felt" and why and "what could have been", its is a survey of PR's interactions with the CP with the most collegiate references. His son is the only his father confided to and there are no eye witnesses who ever went on record. I had conflicting accounts up before but most needed disclaimers or are Horowitz style fiction. Included now are the ones sourced by a reputable historian not those with political agendas which came out magically post Duberman's bio Duberman is not a PR defender, he's a historian.
The sources about the concert I'm referencing are eye witness accounts given in the past ten years from BBC documentaries/PBS etc which have creditably whether you don't feel they do or not. Other historians who have verified the concert like David Levering Lewis, Dr. Charles Wright are going in as well. The concert has no one historian of any repute claiming it never happened. while the Feffer meeting has bunches of different stories and scenarios attached.
I honestly feel the meeting/Concert is becoming a waste of discussion time. I have references for my material so what is the issue? Please explain what you are trying to achieve by going over this daily? Thanks. Catherine Huebscher ( talk) 7:20, 16 November 2010 (UTC
What is up there in the article that is missing from the meeting that you find incorrect or truncated?
Hyperbole? With all due respect that is called LYING. Robeson's lie about the USSR to the media are in there why not DH's? The fact that DH says that PR was a card carrying CPUSA member is enough to eliminate him. He claimed , he accepted a "prize from the dictator himself", camp wo chi ca camp "burnt comic books" and "preached hatred of the US" and they did not, he claimed the camp paper advocated it and then a former member, June Levine, who wrote a bio of the camp, produced every camp newsletter and he waffled and was proven a liar.He also misquotes the Paris Peace Conference speech which everyone knows was a purposeful and complete sham rewrite by AP from the original text both of which are available for scholars. Horowitz dislikes Robeson enough to LIE many times over like a teenage blooger with a grudge. Horowitz is like Ann Coulter, or David Duke someone who hates the Left and vilifies it. He should not going in without a big disclaimer if this is about quoting him. Admins already removed him from the main article. He's a joke frankly and was TEN when the event went down. I may make mistakes but I'm not someone who is considered and author historian/scholar who was even quoted in a very well known book about Stalin's crimes, so there is a big difference.His lies about Robeson are like gossip that gets bigger as it goes from version to version.
"Pope Pius XI had condoned the invasion of Ethiopa, falsely expanding on the stance of several bishops who did."
Robeson said that. Who controls the bishops I wonder? Did the Pap ever protest or try to save Jews in the USSR? Did Truman? Any US president? No. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_CId289lYIdc/TJIDBWWpPAI/AAAAAAAAL-E/Z0jfFHs0trQ/s1600/ratjugend.jpg http://tksanders.com/nazi_catholics_04.jpg -- Catherine Huebscher ( talk) 10:27, 16 November 2010 (UTC
"how old was Duberman?"
?? Duberman cites his work, other's cite their sources and never claim to be a party insider. Horwowitz acts as if he had a direct connection to the Robesons. Horowitz is just a lying sleaze.
who is "we"? The concert is perfectly cited as it is NOW and when i have time to watch the video i will put yet more references- out of courtesy to those who are very fixated on this. There is nothing in there currently that is not sourced properly. You may want the Feffer comments removed but it's verified by dozens of historians so I'm not sure what your point is. Until you come up with a conflicting account that says it never happened or he never mentioned Feffer et al and have it verified by a reputable historian who did research and has footnotes as Duberman, David Levering Lewis etc did then I'm not seeing where any disgruntlement is. We should ask Malik his opinion as an admin perhaps as this is becoming fruitless.-- Catherine Huebscher ( talk) 7:37, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
If everybody is fed up with the Feffer stuff: the whole Jackie Robinson saga occupies to much space/all of three WP articles. A fraction of its boring space here would be more than enough.-- Radh ( talk) 08:53, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Not at all do I agree. That should not happen. It is a key part of pre-black civil rights, sports history, Robeson and the HUAC and how the white supremacist power structure manipulated, coerced and hounded. No Klan members ever at Joe's table but that's who he was-a low life Klansman himself-- Catherine Huebscher ( talk · contribs) 11:13, 8 Novemeber 2009 (UTC)
I'm going to ask admins to break the main article up once they are all improved and cleaned up. Lives of no real notoriety have many sub articles for their concert tours and perfume lines and this is getting to be ludicrous with so much fruitless discussion. At some point I will need to opt out unless there is a serious editing conflict. those seem to be best solved politely and with both editors providing reference materials. Catherine Huebscher ( talk · contribs) 11:43, 17 Novemeber 2009 (UTC)
Admins CAN and DO approve of the articles being split into to smaller more specific articles or not. Catherine Huebscher ( talk · contribs) 8:13, 18 Novemeber 2010 (UTC)
Paul Robeson features prominently on the websites about Camp WO-CHI-CA; so David Horowitz's criticism must have hurt. But in fact these sites just confirm that Robeson simply was at the center of every American Communist idea you can care to think about. Declaring dead, untrained and unlucky, communist soldier Oliver Law a hero in Spain - probably killed by his own people, after he led them into two ambushes? Paul Robeson was there. Fooling around with jewish communist kids at Summer Camp: Paul Robeson is there.
By the way: Ron Radosh, who spent his summers at another summer camp, Camp Woodland, in his memoirs also mentions a communist anti-comics campaign in the 1950s. And Fredric Wertham was rather left-wing himself, as was another anti-comics author, Gershon Legman.-- Radh ( talk) 10:22, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
"Fooling around with jewish communist kids"
There were all different races and religions that went to Wo-Ch-Ca and many CP events PR was not part of. Horowitz admitted he was wrong anyway. Kind of hard when there is documentation. Something he does little of. But what is your point? I'm never going to agree with you and your off topic stuff as this article is not about povs. Stay on topic please.Thanks-- Catherine Huebscher ( talk) 7:37, 17 November 2010 (UTC
What actually is supposed in relation to Paul Robeson and the Dubdidoo camp? Has it any bearing on Communism? If so, it is on topic. It certainly is on topic at the PR article. Str1977 (talk) 16:32, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
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