This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Objections to evolution article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
Index,
1,
2,
3,
4,
5,
6,
7,
8,
9,
10Auto-archiving period: 21 days
![]() |
![]() | Objections to evolution has been listed as one of the Natural sciences good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
Frequently asked questions
|
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
Can I give an opinion on what I am reading? B/c I might be an editor but I also use Wikipedia to learn stuff. An on controversial issues I like to read NPOV to get a balanced reading of the conflicts. am... I am not getting that here. Someone mentioned "Wikipedia's voice"? It is like A and B have a debate and both parties have conflicting beliefs. Yet only B (pro-Darwin) gets to invoke Wikipedia's authoritive Voice over what A said. And that is what this article reads like. To the point where me (no horse in this race) reading this knows 100% that this article was controlled by subject B in the debate. I have seen others raise this objection and been closed down. So what hope do I have? But let the record reflect the tone of this article is not a NPOV position unlike other articles where there is a conflict of views. (Israel-Palestine) for example. Every device has been used to dismiss position A (against evolution). Start with the slant in the lede. Hausa warrior ( talk) 11:29, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
From what I've read, his 'evolutionary argument against naturalism' is not an objection to evolution, but an argument against metaphysical naturalism. I've never read anything that suggests he intended to disprove evolution, or even to critique it as unviable in the light of humans' reasoning capacities. Phil of rel ( talk) 05:23, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
a God would be expected to create beings with reliable reasoning facultiesand people are very obviously very fallible, it sounds rather like an argument for atheism.
different from others- All beliefs are different from all other beliefs; Plantinga is not special in that regard.
Technically speaking- Wikipedia does not speak that, unless reliable sources already did it before. Antievolutionists have always tried to include non-antievolutionists into their groups; your rhetorics is not new.
The traditional "ID" belief is only considered problematic because- Wrong. It is considered problematic because it uses bad reasoning.
an example of genetic fallacyThere is no trace of that fallacy here. -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 20:00, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
theistic evolutionists like Francis Collins counts as believers in intelligent design if we were to apply the basic definitionWe don't apply definitions here. See WP:OR. This is one of the most important Wikipedia rules. Another is WP:RS: If reliable sources say that Collins is ID, we write that he is ID. If no sources say that, we don't say it. End of story.
Traditional ID advocates never tried to add non-anti evolutionists into their groupCreation scientists did. They made lists of creationists including Newton, Linnaeus and lots of other pre-Darwin scientists that never had a chance to take of position on evolution because they never heard of it. But all this is beside the point. Just don't gather random people and call them ID.
But, that's not ORYou are wrong. See the examples in Wikipedia:No original research#Synthesis of published material:
The second paragraph is original research because it expresses a Wikipedia editor's opinion that, given the Harvard manual's definition of plagiarism, Jones did not commit it. Making the second paragraph policy-compliant would require a reliable source specifically commenting on the Smith and Jones dispute and making the same point about the Harvard manual and plagiarism. In other words, that precise analysis must have been published by a reliable source concerning the topic before it can be published on Wikipedia.
Young Earth creationist Kent Hovind blames communism, socialism, World War I, World War II, racism, the Holocaust, Stalin's war crimes, the Vietnam War, and Pol Pot's Killing Fields on evolution, as well as the increase in crime, unwed mothers, and other social ills."
Blames them on what or for what?
Young Earth creationist Kent Hovind blames communism, socialism, World War I, World War II, racism, the Holocaust, Stalin's war crimes, the Vietnam War, and Pol Pot's Killing Fields on evolution, as well as the increase in crime, unwed mothers, and other social ill" 86.191.214.39 ( talk) 07:16, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
"This, then, is the general statement of the second law of thermodynamics:
the total entropy of any system plus that of its environment increases as a result of any natural process." Physics, Principle with Applications, SIXTH EDITION, p. 425, D.C Giancoli, Prentice Hall, Upper Saddle River, New Jersey,1998
This excerpt from a physics text book is at variance with: "The claims have been criticized for ignoring that the second law only applies to isolated systems." LEBOLTZMANN2 ( talk) 19:14, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
A discussion was already held here on the status of inclusion of Plantinga's argument. First of all, Plantinga's argument was specifically against philosophical naturalism, not evolution. So, it doesn't matter what other views of Plantinga are, his arguments are simply not relevant here. Additionally, he never objected against evolution. He already stated that his belief in intelligent design was different from other advocates. They merely just carry the same label, but what the label means here varies. As he stated, all religious people (or at least of the Abrahamic faiths) believe in some kind of designer, including theistic evolutionists like Dobzhanksy. God could've just "designed" by the natural process of evolution. And even if he was an anti-evolutionist, trying to use his other views to justify a completely irrelevant argument here would be an one kind of genetic fallacy. This article is specifically for anti-evolutionist arguments. Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar ( talk) 17:03, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
he never objected against evolutioncontradicts the following sentence
He already stated that his belief in intelligent design. -- Hob Gadling ( talk)
Plantinga does not exactly deny evolutionNeither does ID.
if he means that epistemic responsibility is scarce in humans, he is spot onHe does not mean that. He uses that as a sort of reductio ad absurdum: if naturalism were true, it would mean that people's thinking is not reliable, which would mean that you cannot rely on... naturalism! His reasoning is full of holes and really stupid: you do not need naturalism to derive that, as you say, people's thinking is indeed not reliable. And picking naturalism as the thing that you cannot rely on at the end is purely arbitrary.
Problems wiht evolution: 1) Cambrian explosion: All body plans appear at same time, early in Cambrian explosion. Eyes and other complex features all appear at once in Cambrian explosion. Fossil record is firm. 2) Avalon explosion single cells to complex life all at once. Fossil record is firm. 3) Lack of transitional fossils for most of life forms. Animals appear remain unchanged and most go extinct. The past predictions that new fossils finds would fill in the gap in the transitional fossils as not come true. There are “missing links” for most species. 4) Living fossils: Horseshoe crab, Nautilidae, Australian lungfish, nurse shark and many more. Animals appear, remain unchanged for long time spans. 5) Convergent evolution: Many complex features appear in unrelated animals and plants, too many to be evolution. Look at Chameleon and Sand Lance fish, same eyes (independent eye movements and special focusing lenses) and a darting tongue. The list is very long of convergent evolution, too long. 6) 6) Studies have shown mutations are only beneficial for species that have a very large population size, like bacteria. For all other animals mutations drives the species towards extinction. So mutations do not produce new and complex features, like eyes. When animals are stressed and have a small population size, we protect then, as they do not change. Mutations occur when DNA is damaged and left unrepaired. The ratio of negative to beneficial mutations in anything larger than an ant is harmful to the life form. 7) Natural selection can change an animal’s color and other small changes, but has been shown to have limits. Also, it has been shown that once the pressure that forces the change is gone, the animal will go back to its original state, changes are not permanent! Finch beak evolution, shown as proof, always fails to note the finch does not keep the large beak. As the food that forced the large beak is gone, the beak returns to its original size. 8) Origins of life: There was no primordial soup. There was no time for natural origins, as soon as the Earth cooled there was life. The first life forms were not “simple” as predicted. Cyanobacterium is very complex. There was not one simple early life form, there was a complete ecosystem with sulfate-reducing microorganisms also shows up early in the record, also a very complex life form. 9) Some clades are very diverse and some unusually sparse, evolution should work everywhere the same. 10) The recovery after mass extinctions is very quick, too quick for evolution. Permian-triassic Extinction: 90 percent to 95 extinction rate. Yet, life recovered in just thousands of years. Triassic-jurassic Extinction: Triassic dinosaurs gone and in just thousands of years all new Jurassic dinosaurs. Cretaceous-tertiary Extinction: Mass extinction, all dinosaurs are gone, as is most life forms, yet there are all new life forms in just thousands of years. 11) Breeding for dogs and horses for thousands of years. Change comes at a heavy cost, shorter life span and poor health. 12) DNA testing of close animals has shown they are not related. The two river dolphins and ocean dolphins are not related. The two panda bears are not related and the list can go on and on. 13) The proof of evolution is mostly: Animal A looks like animal B, so animal B must have come from animal A, how childish if you can not show how it happened. 14) Common Ancestry problem. Animals that have a recent common ancestor are too different. A donkey is very close in ancestry to the horse and zebra. So close that they may breed producing mules and zonkeys. Yet the donkey, horse and zebra are very different, too different. The donkey is very cautious and departs from danger, they can not be used in a battle. The horse willingly will go into battle, some like the danger. The Donkey and the horse are easily tamed and once tame will remain tame. Zebra are difficult to tame and difficult to remain tame. Other sample of this problem can be found in nature. 15) “Evolution Junk”, those that only believe in evolution have put on blinders and have made gross errors in the past about designs in nature. The theory is evolution is a series of random mutations, thus residual vestige of random mutations will be found in nature. In this thinking many scientists overlooked designs in life. Only later to be shown that what they called junk, was in fact a good design. Examples of this are many: Tonsils, Appendix, Panda's thumb, Whale hips (still taught as vestige, but this is wrong), Junk DNA, Humpback Whales fins, and more. There are neutral mutations, like some humans have three or one kidney, but these are not residual vestige or a case for design as they are rare. 16) Human exceptionalism: Charles Darwin wrote and many scientists followed this thinking: Animals that most look like us will most closely match our cognitive capabilities. After study and research, the animals that has the closest cognitive capabilities to humans are crows, ravens and New Caledonian Crow. The New Caledonian Crow can: Make fish hooks, teach others how to make fish hooks. Crows and ravens (same family) are the only animals to be able to solve multi step problems and make tools to solve these problems. MRI scans have shown crow and raven brains are the closest brain to humans. Yet Human exceptionalism has shown are not just a higher animal. Humans different much from animals. Humans are the only one to be active in: art, musical, jewelry, use symbolism, active religion, written languages, mathematics, have moral dilemmas and much more. Many of these appeared as soon as humans appear. Neanderthal has few of these abilities and is too different from Humans. Near the end Neanderthals lived at the same time as Humans. Neanderthals had no tear ducts, very large sinuses, large barrel shaped chest, short arms, heavy bones, different braincase, different ear bones, and more. There is no “missing link” to humans from bipedal primates. The large brain evolution hypothesis has been falsified after the discovery of early hominin with larger brains than later hominin fossils. Telecine Guy ( talk) 01:23, 17 June 2024 (UTC)