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Why has this article been tagged for clean-up? Santanaquintass ( talk)
Thanks. Wilco. Santanaquintass ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:04, 14 November 2009 (UTC).
I have done some minor cleaning of the article, and hope to do some more. Here are some issues I encountered. First, editors should read WP:COI. I do not see this currently as a big problem, but it needs to be borne in mind. Second, some references (example: "'Checking out the check-outs' Financial Times London 12 July 1980") are too vague – there should be a page number. Often references can be worked on later, but if a reference is relied on for a WP:REDFLAG claim, then it needs to be precise. Third, some language is non-encyclopedic (example: "many of Aldrich's systems were transformational"): the claims need to be toned down, and a reliable source needs to be given to support them. Fourth, the following is potentially a big problem: http://www.aldricharchive.com/aldrich_wiki.html See WP:Contact us/Top questions#Can I copy articles from Wikipedia? for the procedures that must be followed to copy an article. Johnuniq ( talk) 01:05, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
I spent several months being sceptical about the claim. Here is what convinced me. There is overwhelming and well documented evidence that Mr Aldrich was a pioneer of online shopping. He didn't invent the case studies, he didn't write them and 'Information Management' had a large circulation. So there is public record and other third party verification. But did he invent it? According to the invention story, which is simple and plausible, some market concept testing was undertaken in New Orleans. In the Archive there is the cover story put out by the company's Press Office to cover the trip and a later reference to it in a Financial Times one page article[January 19 1981] about Mr Aldrich written by Guy de Jonquieres. According to the invention story it was decided to launch the product in April 1980 into the business market. So I decided to look for Press Cuttings around that time that talked about shopping. On 7th July 1980, the first paragraph of the 'Financial Times' report reads: 'If Mike Aldrich is to be believed, the days of the supermarket are numbered. He forsees a future when housewives will do the week's shopping from the comfort of an armchair using a hand-held push-button keypad to order electronically items displayed on their television screens at home.' The piece is in the Press Cuttings section of the Archive. I didn't look any further. The Press Cuttings are massive. I did find in the reference material section of 'Teleputers and Cable' a piece from the Sunday Times about the teleputer that refers to home shopping. In getting a timeline on this invention I looked at Thomson Holidays the first B2B that went live in March 1981. If you backtrack development time, installation and contracting that system had to be ordered in mid-1980 which ties in with the product launch of April 1980 and the fact that there had to be a very cogent sales argument from the beginning. The final piece that I found awesome was the May 1984 TV interview with Mrs Snowball in 'Finding Mrs Snowball.' Four years after the sceptical piece in the Financial Times it was happening exactly as predicted with the largest supermarket in the UK! With inventions you always start with Leonardo drawings. Failing that,you check every browser known to man. The claim is pervasive, it has been out there for some time and I can find no evidence that it has been challenged. It has to be a very strong claim.
Santanaquintass ( talk) 15:42, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
Source these wild claims to multiple "massive" news reporting by independent, third-party reliable sources or they're going to be removed. Press releases do not count. Minor references do not count. His personal websites and archive do not count. I found no independent references about this person and his claims to fame, so please provide credible sources. Flowanda | Talk 10:51, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Most of the data in the article is sourced from an archive held by a University. The archive consists in the main of published reports in reputable press and magazines. Not only are the events verifiable, the people involved using the systems are often named and often photographed. The word 'massive' was used to describe the size of the Press Cuttings section in the Archive. The cuttings cover 20 years. The Financial Times, The Times, The Guardian may not be well known outside the UK but within the UK they are considered to be independent and reliable. 'Information Management' was published in the UK for about 15 years, had a circulation of around 3000 and was mailed to business leaders and Parliamentary legislators. It is a very reliably sourced article. However, there seems to be an argument raging about Wikipedia Reliable Sources WP:RS and little concensus emerging often as people dance around on a pin top. Coupled with over-enthusiastic editors who seem to have decided that a source has to be in a peer-reviewed journal and anything not conforming thus has to be censored and removed, Wiki is headed into dangerous waters. A simpler, sensible approach would be for local country editors to determine what is a reasonable source [for example, would it stand up to reasonable scepticism?] and for each article to carry a statement as to whether the facts contained therein had been subject to peer review. This would encourage interested academics and avoid one size fits all judgements that are destructive. Santanaquintass ( talk) 08:05, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
User:Flowanda has removed some claims regarding Michael Aldrich from Home shopping and Online shopping and Electronic commerce. I have noticed some of these claims and they have seemed excessive to me because WP:REDFLAG seems appropriate: exceptional claims require exceptional sources. I see no reason to doubt the basic facts presented in Michael Aldrich, but it is not clear that those facts are sufficient to justify the claim "invented online shopping".
These articles contain or contained related statements:
The information regarding Aldrich has been contributed by users Santanaquinta and Santanaquintas and Santanaquintass and 152.78.225.155. I think some of the text presented by these editors needs to be reviewed. Johnuniq ( talk) 10:50, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
There appears to be four issues with Michael Aldrich; provenance, invented online shopping, reliability of sources,and other claims.
Your plan needs to include sourcing all these claims per independent, third-party, recognizable, mainstream news reporting that meets WP:RS. The existing self published links, no matter how peer reviewed past, present or future, or related to anything ending in .edu, are not going to support the magnanimous claims made in this and other articles related to this person. Stop trying to argue and justify sources that don't meet Wikipedia policy and help find acceptable sources that do. Flowanda | Talk 11:33, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
In looking at the sources common-sense is needed. Aldrich's teleshopping systems received a very sceptical welcome. HiFi systems were the big news in 1980. Many reports of his new system are wonderfully garbled and a little silly. Few understood what he was talking about. Online shopping did not exist. I experimented with a 14 year old, a fifteen year old and a 64 year old professor to test your objections to the references. Apart from tidying, they thought the references were more than adequate. Santanaquintass ( talk) 16:29, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
The article Michael Aldrich is a biography of a living person. It relies heavily on the publicly accessible and digitised part of the Aldrich Archive at the University of Brighton. The Archive fits the WK:RS definition of a self-published source. In structure the digitised Archive is a series of essays by Aldrich linking original published material in the main about 100 case studies of IT systems usage, some independent third party material, some collected published papers or public domain speeches, and a large number of Press Cuttings from respected sources listed in month date order but not referenced in the essays. The case studies were written by freelance IT journalists and the clients had final editorial control. The magazine in which they were published over a 15 year period was published by the company where Aldrich was CEO.The so-called claims are made in the essays which are the secondary sources. The WK:RS policy on self-published work states that in some circumstances it can be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in a relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. There are therefore three tests for the Archive as a source; circumstances, established expert and prior publication of relevant work in a reliable publication. The circumstances of the Archive are unusual. See the 'Provenance' paragraph above. Was Aldrich an expert in a relevant field? There is ample evidence that he was. He was an IT expert appointed to advise the UK Government at the highest level. As to prior publication, he wrote a book on videotex and in the foreword the then Secretary of State for Industry and Information Technology wrote that Aldrich was a 'leading videotex practioner'. In Chapter 6 of the book titled 'Consumer Liberation' Aldrich talks about teleshopping [as he called online shopping.]The book until recently could be found in most US university libraries. Aldrich was also later Chairman of the Videotex Industry Association. As another prior publication, Aldrich co-authored a UK Government Report, Cable Systems which, inter alia, talks to home information systems including teleshopping. I concluded that Aldrich met the three tests by a wide margin. My fact-checking was vigorous because I started out as a sceptic and critic. The so-called claims in the Michael Aldrich article are factual,accurate and verifiable. I cannot agee with Flowanda's comments about sourcing, peer review and magnanimous claims in the article. Santanaquintass ( talk) 09:43, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
Note: This discussion is related to edits about Aldrich made to other articles, including Online shopping, Electronic commerce, Home shopping, and others.
The subject's own documents, no matter where they are housed or what they include, are not going to be enough to source the claims you are making. Without a reliable source that can be verified, there is no difference between saying Aldrich "invented" something and is "credited with". At best, the latter would be considered " weasel wording", but in this case, you can't source the "credit" to his website or his own documents.
However, as this dispute seems to be stalled, I've posted a request at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Aldricharchive.com about the use of AldrichArchive.com as a source or for other ways to source the edits you want to make. There are also several other noticeboards to ask for additional editor input or help. Flowanda | Talk 03:19, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
I have been trying to make some time to tidy up the references and have been wondering what to do about the Archive references. Using the talk page to dissect the archive references is a good idea. I just need to figure out a format that will work. I plan to start work on March 4th. Santanaquintass ( talk) 15:23, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
I've noticed these references added to the Prestel article on which I have been contributing, which is why I ended up here.. In another Prestel related project, I have been scanning and archiving material related to "Club 403". In 1985, they were proclaiming they had launched the "worlds first armchair grocer" by 1984, offering online shopping of groceries, meat and veg, etc, via Prestel. This was a project run by Viewtel Services Ltd, sister co.of the Birmingham Post & Mail. Scans of the original documents, which I hold, are available [ here]. FWIW there is no mention of Mr Aldrich. Robirrelevant ( talk) 22:33, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
I had intended to write a piece on the history of the teleputer, the fusion of PC/Television and Telephone, along the lines of 'iconic product from the birth of the IT Age when three great industries collided.' In Spring 2008, an open development site appeared with details of the invention of the teleputer back in 1980. The development site spasmodically and randomly posted new information that told stories of inventions and achievements that seemed surreal. Around the Spring of 2009 the website became www.aldricharchive.com. In December 2009 it was formally opened to the public although I think it had always been open. Somewhere along the way I dropped my teleputer project and set out to disprove the archive stories. There are huge problems fact-checking these stories. The two biggest problems are that 'Information Management' had no ISBN number, for no apparent reason. Secondly the period 1977-1985 is poorly digitised. It also doesn't help that Aldrich's company had three different names in the 1980-1984 period nor the fact that the period was full of hype, spin, mis-information and techno-babble. Later in 2009 the archive posted a section on press cuttings in year/month date order. They are not referenced in the text of the essays and there are other press cuttings elsewhere in the archive. It is unlikely that the press cuttings are complete. But it was a start.I decided to write an introductory biographical piece. There are 34 references in the article, half from the digitised archive. Around 50% of the archive is digitised. The key claims I tried to source from third parties. The references are dealt with sequentially as they appear in the article. I will tidy the references in the article itself later. For now there will be an audit trail.
1.Biography,Aldrich Archive University of Brighton 2009 [ [1]]The article is largely built around the bio because it is the best available list of facts.The facts are accurate except for the names of some professional organizations that have changed in recent years. I noticed the Companionship of the Chartered Management Institute. This is by invitation only and is reserved for 'Captains of Industry.' Back in 1986 Aldrich would have been around 45 and well-regarded.
2.Checking on the check-outs, Financial Times London July 12 1980 [ [2]] The FT doesn't generally do computer product launches. In this piece the FT is reporting on the launch of a model within a range! On the same web-page above the veteran technology editor of The Times of London can be seen muddling 'videotex' with 'video sets' and the canny Computer Weekly writer spotted that the important news was the IBM 3270 emulation for videotex terminals/televisions. All the newspapers were reporting the same event! But the notable words are in the FT piece:
If Mike Aldrich is to be believed the days of the supermarket are numbered. He foresees a future when housewives will do their week's shopping from the comfort of an armchair using a hand-held push-button keypad to order items electronically displayed on their television sets at home.
In May 1984, less than 4 elapsed years, Mrs Snowball was doing exactly that for real on network television. The reference proves Aldrich was selling online shopping in 1980. The other pieces on the above web-page prove he could network his systems and that his systems were easily mis-characterized. The sceptical dis-belief of the FT also shows that no-one else was selling online shopping. Finally, the essays by Aldrich that are the spine of the archive do not refer to the cuttings except in one or two specific cases. The press cuttings were posted months after the essays.
3,4,5 These are all Teleputer References 3.1981 Large.PThe Thing has arrived and guess what-it's British Teleputer. The Guardian London September 30 1981.[ [3]] 5.1981 Charlish.G Enter the Teleputer,all purpose information tool. Financial TimesLondon October 2 1981[ [4]] 4.1981 Price C Living by Numbers. The Sunday Times Colour SupplementLondon September 21 1981 [ [5]]
6.The Case Studies Aldrich Archive There are around 100 digitised case studies. The main ones referred to in the article are; Online Shopping Pioneers [ [6]] and Innovative Information Systems[ [7]]
7.1988 Palmer C Using IT for competitive advantage at Thomson Holidays. Long Range Planning Vol 21, No6, p26-29-Institute of Strategic Studies JournalLondon- Pergamon Press[now Elsevier.b.v] December 1988. This is the peer reviewed version of the Thomson Holidays project. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Santanaquintass ( talk • contribs) 15:38, 4 March 2010 (UTC) Santanaquintass ( talk) 15:43, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
8,9 These two references relate to Gateshead online shopping. 8.The Incorporated Engineer piece can be found at [ [8]] Note that a picture of Mrs Snowball is on the page plus a picture of Aldrich organising the information system for the G8 Economic Summit! The original story is at [ [9]] 9.The City of Gateshead organised an event to mark the 25th anniversary.[ [10]] Also there is the story of finding Mrs Snowball[ [11]] At this web-page there is also the ITN interview with Mrs Snowball in May 1984 reported by Lawrence McGinty their distinguished science journalist. This is the world's first recorded B2C online shopping system. With the earlier FT piece and all the other sources it makes an extremely strong case that Aldrich invented online shopping. In 30 years, online shopping was never patented. It was never claimed. Aldrich's claim has never been challenged in spite of being pervasive in cyberspace.
10. Pioneer Case Studies The Nissan Story. This can be found at[ [12]] This story written in 1988 is little short of amazing.From around 1984/1985 Nissan had not only been doing B2B online shopping but had also been selling Finance to buyers and doing online credit ratings authorizations. No wonder they took time to disclose this story! This may be the first B2C for high value consumer durables.
11.UAPT/ INFOLINK. Innovative Information Systems, Aldrich Archive [ [13]] Taken with the Nissan story this piece explains how the online real-time credit rating was done. This was awesome for the time.
12.Introduction, Innovative Information Systems, Aldrich Archive.[ [14]] Para 9 Nissan's exploits obviously became known and Aldrich claims to have supplied systems to other Finance Companies under confidentiality agreements.
13. This is a peer reviewed study of the Gateshead shopping from a social science viewpoint. The system was designed for old folk lacking mobility.
14. The Aldrich book on Videotex. Available from some University Libraries or on Amazon. This is a small book full of big ideas, not an easy read. The interesting fact is that he wrote down his vision and then tried to implement it, with partial success. Chapter 6 is 'Consumer Liberation' which he thought consumers would achieve with online shopping. ISBN 0 907621 120.
15. Cable Systems is a UK Government report that bears strong similarities to the Aldrich book. It caused the law to be changed and for the UK to be re-cabled with broadband modern cable systems. The Cable Story tells his version.[ [15]]
16. Reference to [ [16]]
17.Reference to [ [17]]]]
18.Reference to [ [18]] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Santanaquintass ( talk • contribs) 17:40, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
19.Reference to [ [19]]
20.Reference to[ [20]]
21.Reference to[ [21]]
22.Reference to [ [22]]
23.Reference to[ [23]] Santanaquintass ( talk) 18:00, 4 March 2010 (UTC) Santanaquintass ( talk) 18:15, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
24.Reference to [ [24]]
25.1982 Aldrich M co-author Cable Systems London HMSO ISBN 011 6308214
26.Reference to [ [25]]
27.1983 Aldrich M co-author Making a Business of Information London HMSO ISBN 011 6308249
28.1986 Aldrich M co-author Learning to Live with IT London HMSO HMSO ISBN 011 6308311
29,30,31,32 As written
33.Reference to [ [26]]
34. Reference to [ [27]] Santanaquintass ( talk) 18:59, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
As an employee of ROCC/Reddifusion computers during most of the 1980's I had extensive experiance in the manufacturing and testing of product that was being shipped to russia and what was then Czechoslovakia. This was done through the building and testing of R range systems which were then dismantled and shipped as parts. Engineers from the Soviet union attended the ROCC training school in Crawley, where they learnt the skills to assemble and support the full systems. In the Crawley manufacturing department we had to carry out modification to the technology to slow it down so it met the necessary CoCom requirements. Typically timing circuits for process boards were slowed and encapsulated in epoxy resin to reduce the chance of conversion back to full speed.
This article and many recent edits to other articles by User:Santanaquintass smell of original research in violation of WP:NOR. Aldrich is a historical footnote and Santanaquintass's edits place undue weight (in violation of WP:UNDUE) on Aldrich's accomplishments as well as the accomplishments of the early 1980s videotex developers. Historians of computing generally consider the 1980s videotex developers to be yet another sad example of the rule that the price of innovation is the courage to fail. That is, the history of videotex technology is notable only insofar as it shows how NOT to try to do e-commerce. If Santanaquintass truly believes that Aldrich has been unjustifiably ignored or marginalized by historians of computing and computer science, he is always free to publish a properly researched article in IEEE Annals of the History of Computing, then cite to that article on Wikipedia. But it is improper to abuse Wikipedia to bring attention to a man who has not earned attention (either from the news media or academia) in his own right. Staving off the abuse of Wikipedia for the promotion of non-notable men and women ( Jim Carrey would use the l-word for them) is one of the major objectives of the core policies Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, which are non-negotiable. Aldrich's accomplishments pale in comparison to true intellectual giants like Douglas Engelbart, Vinton Cerf, or Tim Berners-Lee. -- Coolcaesar ( talk) 07:12, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Is the Aldrich Archive a reliable source? See WK:RS above. Aldrich is,I suspect,an expert on the subject matter of the facts, the claims, the interpretation and the context. Is the digitised aldricharchive.com a reliable source? The hard copy of the Archive is owned by the University of Brighton and held at the Aldrich Library. ROCC Computers have digitised about 50% of the Archive and the web-site is currently in the company's name. When finished around 2013 the web-site will revert to the University. The digitised archive includes essays by Aldrich linked in the main to published material. Is there 3rd party support for the claims? There is 3rd Party support for the facts. The claims are made by Aldrich and are unchallenged by any authoritative source. Are the facts verifiable? No-one has challenged the facts. The evidence is overwhelming. Phase 2 of the Archive project is gathering contributions from people involved with building and using the system, very much a living history project. Why isn't Aldrich in the history books already? This is an awkward and inconvenient issue for everyone. No-one really knows. Some reasons could be: the material only started to appear in web-accessible form in 2008 and became public in December 2009 with little publicity: Videotex was a technological dead-end and people confuse the technology with the applications that used it: most of the published material about Aldrich is in non-digitised form: Aldrich was not mainstream big computer industry: 'Information Management' had no ISBN numbers. He was UK not US. Or perhaps he didn't matter so no-one mentioned him. Surprisingly,I could not even find a footnote. Are the claims and interpretations reasonable? Freedom of expressions means that everyone is entitled to personal opinions. Encyclopedias however deal with facts. Aldrich however has to be translated to be understood, not unusual in historical subjects. Aldrich invented what he called 'teleshopping,' Today it is called 'online shopping.' Aldrich invented business-to-business transaction processing. Today it is called e-commerce. Aldrich's system could do much more than transaction processing between businesses and he advocated such applications. Today that is called 'e-business.' One could say that there is a horseless carriage problem with the language. And he was 20-30 years ahead of the curve in a foreign country. Is my work 'original research?' So far it has been called many things from 'scholarshop' to 'journalism.' I think scholarshop sounds about right. Sadly there is nothing original but I think I did well on translation and I did read most of the stuff although I eventually became bored. Why the rush to judgement to excise him from Wikipedia? I can find no credible authoritative source to support such unilateral editorial action although I do understand that he is very unpopular with some parties involved in patent suits. It is inconvenient and awkward that not only did Aldrich appear to accomplish so much but also he had the temerity to provide evidence 30 years on. That doesn't justify a pruning expedition that is both inappropriate and ultimately futile. If there is evidence to the contrary about the Aldrich claims and their interpretation, please present it and discuss it here. If you want to disagrre with the claims for the sake of it, please do so but we can't have an intelligent discussion without evidence. In the meantime please restore the cuts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Santanaquintass ( talk • contribs) 12:44, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
We are back to the February 2010 positions. My understanding of the individual stances is: Flowanda, Rejects Aldrich Archive as a Reliable Source. Discussion over. Remove everything. Johnuniq, silent on Aldrich Archive as a Reliable Source. Believes the facts [as opposed to the claims/interpretations] could be accurate. Coolcaesar, thinks it is all basically junk original research in violation of multiple Wiki policies. Santanaquintass, believes the Aldrich Archive is a Reliable Source complying with WK:RS, has lifted the disputed claims/interpretations from the Aldrich Archive, noted there are no claims/interpretations found to the contrary but agrees that the big claims/interpretations should be independently verified. Hopefully this is a fair summation. Apologies if not. The central issue is still the same. Does the Aldrich Archive comply with Wk:RS at least for facts? If not, no Archive-no story. If yes, the claims/interpretations can be put aside until there is independent verification. If we can agree then we can negotiate wording. 'Invented, world first, revolutionary' for example can be replaced with words like 'developed, pioneered, produced, innovated' etc can be used pending independent verification. The problems with wording should not be underestimated. 'Predecessor' is an unsourced claim or interpretation. Words and phrases however well-intended don'y always work as planned. If we can't agree that the Aldrich Archive is a Reliable Source for facts then we should take that specific issue to a higher authority for resolution, await the result and abide by it. Please advise your positions —Preceding unsigned comment added by Santanaquintass ( talk • contribs) 17:27, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
As a test/manufacturing engineer working at Rediffusion/ROCC in the 1980, I spent a lot of time on the teleputer, both II & III and my partical one was, one of the wirewrap prototyes which was made by Mullard-Philips in Mitcham. All of the original technical specifications and drawing were also marked as Mullard-Phillips. I know they were key in the development of the teletxt decoding modules, but I'm also fairly sure they were instrumental in the invention and design of the machines. The statement that they could receive terrestrial television is also incorrect, as highlighted in the next paragraph, because the 14" "TV" had no tuner and just utilised RGB inputs. These TVs were standard, surplus 14" portables from elsewhere in the Rediffusion group. Later units were shipped with other makes of monitors as the low cost source dried up. At the same time that the teleputers and later Amstrad PC, linked to R range minis was being sold to the likes of Nissan, Ford etc, teleshopping/banking was being offered as gateway products on Prestel, in the form or the Bank of Scotland banking (see homelink on prestel page), Kays catalogue, to list just the two I was using. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.36.235.2 ( talk) 11:49, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
The BBC recently talked about Michael Aldrich and his Gateshead project in a TV documentary and also published an article at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24091393 and has been picked up by the independant http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/forget-ebay-and-amazon-it-was-a-gateshead-pensioner-who-started-the-online-shopping-revolution-8816912.html
If anyone has the time to verify that these are accepted sources and wishes to edit the article to replace the poor references to Mr Aldrichs own website then please do. Flibblesan ( talk) These sources are fabulous.The BBC news magazine contains a clip from the TV program showing the world,s first online shopper completing a transaction. The BBC had found some 1984 news film footage. In other words the Brits had not only invented online shopping, they had also TELEVISED it on network news in 1984! The clip also has an interview with Michael Aldrich who they describe as the 'inventor of videotex online shopping' and in their magazine they describe as the 'Father of Online Shopping.' The BBC effectively confirm the 'Michael Aldrich' article in Wickipedia and also the veracity of the Aldrich Archive. The references made by the main article are not poor. For anyone who has studied the Archive it will be clear that it consists mainly of third party material collected by Michael Aldrich and others and linked through essays by Aldrich to explain the meaning.
It was interesting to read in the BBC article a quote by an academic from the Brighton Business School saying of the world's first online shopper 'It really was a momentous landmark.' It was and now we know.20:37, 29 November 2013 (UTC) RYE350SE ( talk)
This might be a bit late and wrong place to discuss possibly, but aldricharchive.com leads to an online slot website for me in the US, I'm not sure what to do since I'm new to wikipedia and if someone knows what to do I would apricate it. RandomHS Student ( talk) 19:49, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
http://www.aldricharchive.com/downloads/Thomson.pdf
is
here. Painful fixing all of them! When this mess is fixed, any remaining links (
LinkSearch) need to be eliminated.
Johnuniq (
talk) 04:21, 24 April 2023 (UTC)