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1. Could an authorised editor please make the following 2/1 character correction in the article lede? Sentence currently flips "direction" in its final third -- jarring for native English speakers. Thanks in advance.
NOW: "In total, of the 900,000 Jews who left Arab and other Muslim countries, 600,000 settled in the new state of Israel, and 300,000 immigrated to France and the United States."
2. "if a man as well connected and powerful as Shafiq Ades could he eliminated by the state" - change "he" to "be"
Requested move 26 February 2024
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Support, exodus has an Iron Age biblical meaning that is not appropriate here. Abductive (
reasoning) 13:02, 26 February 2024 (UTC)reply
CommentWP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not an argument, the circumstances are distinct and consistency is therefore not required. For a start, the opening for this article says "migrated, fled, or were expelled" whereas the other says "fled from their homes or were expelled" and the other was in 1948 whereas the events here took place over a long period of time. Therefore, if there should be a new title, it should include the word migration and a date range needs to be established. What needs to be determined by reference to reliable sources is the relevant %'s , migrated, fled, expelled and when did these occur rather than an obvious POV push to match the other title with spurious argumentation.
Selfstudier (
talk) 13:15, 26 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose the title should be as neutral as possible and inline with how the RS describe the events (such as the "Jewish migration from the Arab world" and the "emigration of the Jews from the Arab World"). While those sourced common names are about the Arab world, I see no reason why they shouldn't apply to the "Muslim world". The various reasons for the migration should be discussed in each relevant section.
M.Bitton (
talk) 13:53, 26 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose - I do not think "expulsion and flight" is an NPOV way to describe the event. Yes, Morris 2008 says "emigrated, were intimidated into flight, or were expelled." But Pappe 2004 and 2022 AFAICS just calls that "immigration" without the "intimidated" or "expelled" part. And I just checked Mark Tessler's 2009 book, pp. 309-311:
While the arrival of these Jews from the Arab world played a critical role in shaping the character and evolution of Israeli society after 1948, the argument that their dislocation was comparable to that of the Palestinians is controversial and problematic. Israeli propagandists stressed the difficulties that confronted Jews in Arab lands and suggested that they had been forced to leave their homes. ... In fact, however, such statements give a distorted impression of the complex and varied situation of the Jews in Arab countries and of the diverse reasons that led most to leave.
Scholarly Israeli and Jewish sources, as well as others, offer a more realistic appraisal. ... Further, though Jewish insecurity was both real and justified in some Arab countries, it was far less significant in others, and, in any event, it was only one of the reasons that Jews chose to leave the Arab world at this time. Immigration to Israel was sometimes the result of a desire to participate in the building of the Jewish state. This motivation was most intense in the more traditional and religious Jewish communities, often located in rural areas. In these cases, and undoubtedly some others, it was the attraction of Israel, rather than a desire to flee persecution, that led Jews to leave the Arab countries in which they lived.
Socioeconomic factors may have been an even more important consideration ... Moreover, not only did an uncertain economic future lead some Jews to think about leaving, but the economic advantages and favoritism Jews had enjoyed in the past created resentment among the majority, a consideration that may also have encouraged Jewish emigration but which had nothing to do with the Arab-Jewish conflict in Palestine.
In some instances, cultural factors provided yet another stimulus to Jewish emigration ... In fact, many of these Jews emigrated to Europe rather than to Israel.
Finally, post-1948 Zionist efforts to promote Jewish emigration appear to have been an important factor in at least a few instances ... In any event, when Zionist involvement is added to the socioeconomic, cultural, and other factors that helped to stimulate Jewish departures, it becomes clear that it is highly oversimplified, and in many ways misleading, to equate the flight of Palestine's Arabs with the immigration to Israel of Jews from Arab countries.
The take away is that we should not equate the Nakba with Jewish emigration from Arab countries post-1948.
Levivich (
talk) 17:46, 26 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose the false equivalence behind this proposal. As in Levivich's quotation, it is simply not true that the two mass population movements were similar.
Zerotalk 00:05, 27 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose per Levivich and Zero. Very obvious attempt at a moral equivalence, and one that the sources do not support. I would support
Jewish migration from the Muslim world. The claim of consistency with a completely different topic is one that fails even the most cursory glances. This was not a population largely chased out by militias/armed forces. There is no consistency required between completely different topics. Even the order of words here betrays the POV of the proposal, there are very few instances of expulsions of Jews from any of the Muslim/Arab states. And the claim that the reasons for that move apply equally to this is so obviously specious that not even an attempt at justifying the claim is made. In fact, the quote from the Tessler brought by Levivich attributes such an argument to "Israeli propagandists". nableezy - 00:12, 27 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose. "Flight" carries an inappropriate connotation, considering that not all Jews who left Muslim lands "fled" them. The current title is appropriate.
Zanahary (
talk) 19:02, 27 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose. This is a false equivalent as Zero suggests.
Hogo-2020 (
talk) 06:16, 29 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose I'm not sure this move makes much more sense than calling large-scale Jewish migration from the Russian Empire (in response to, among other things, pogroms and discrimination) circa 1900 "flight and expulsion of Jews from Russia". (
t ·
c) buidhe 09:49, 29 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose Why would article titles on two seperate concepts need to be consistent? What an utterly ridiculous and intellectually dishonest argument. This is so obviously a
WP:POINTY proposal designed to advance a certain POV.
AusLondonder (
talk) 16:48, 3 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose as factually incorrect. Per
Talk:Jewish exodus from the Muslim world/Archive 3#Expulsions?, I have been looking to verify the use of the term "expulsions" for the departure of Jews across all the Arab and Muslim countries for a decade without success. Across the entire Arab and Muslim world, only the
1956–1957 exodus and expulsions from Egypt (post-Suez Crisis purge of the
Mutamassirun) appears to have included a small number of expulsions of Jews (alongside a large number of Europeans), at least some of whom would not have been Egyptian citizens. There is no evidence of expulsions from any other Arab or Muslim country, despite some propagandistic claims to the contrary.
Onceinawhile (
talk) 17:47, 3 March 2024 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
"sometimes positing a "malicious Zionist conspiracy" to explain the exodus."[1]
It was apparently removed for being POV but the main reference supporting it as an actual scholar and professor Philip Mendes, who has spent many years researching the Jewish expulsion from the MENA region. The main reference also has another 10 or so sources supporting it.
1) You have been blocked for edit warring over this. 2) It has been reverted by 3 different editors:
Onceinawhile (that you personally attacked in one of your edit summaries),
Selfstudier and myself. 3) You violated 1RR again.
M.Bitton (
talk) 11:49, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
References
^Mendes, Philip (2002). The Forgotten Refugees: the causes of the post-1948 Jewish Exodus from Arab Countries. 14th Jewish Studies Conference Melbourne March 2002. –
"The Forgotten Refugees". Archived from
the original on 13 January 2013. Retrieved 12 June 2007 – via MEFacts.com. –
"The Forgotten Refugees" – via Palestine Remembered.
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This
jewcy opinion article says "the numbers seem to be closer to 10 – 14,000 than 24,000". It also mentions another now deleted opinion article which seems the source of the 24k claim.
References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):
Having reviewed the sources, I can confirm that the current source doesn't support the 24k figure. As for the proposed change, I'm not convinced that the 20k figure should be mentioned since the source is not strong, the jump from 3.5k to 20k in 16 years (without explanation) seems implausible and the claim is contradicted by two recent RS (Kirsten E. Schulze and Al-Jazeera). What is probably worth mentioning is the fact that the population increased in the 1950s due to the wave of immigration from Syria. Here's what I suggest:
The 1932 national census put the country’s Jewish population at around 3,500.[2] In 1948, there were approximately 5,200 Jews in Lebanon.[3] Their number increased after the first Arab-Israeli war to roughly 9,000 in 1951, including an estimated 2,000 Jewish asylum seekers.[3]
I'll leave it here for you and others to review.
M.Bitton (
talk) 13:29, 30 May 2024 (UTC)reply