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Just asking... Demf 15:43, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, the California Death Records database says otherwise [1] Steve Pastor ( talk) 22:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The elaborate part about her song 'hound dog' is not something an article should start with. It's supposed to start with an introduction, summing up who she was and what she was about, right? I don't know enough about her to write a good introduction that's to the point, maybe someone else? If there's nobody, I'll do some research myself later on. Key to the city 12:59, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
This is one of those humorously ambiguous sentences that it's a treat to find sometimes (though not in an encyclopedia, free or otherwise):
So, okay, was she buried with a lot of other notable people, or did a lot of other notable people attend the services that Johnny Otis conducted, or was she laid to rest alongside a number of notable people (who were, like, already buried there)? There *is* sort of a significant difference, y'know... rowley ( talk) 21:17, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
The description of her as leaving home at 14 in response to just "musical aspirations" is not a trivial inference, and needs at least to be {{
fact}} tagged. Do we know that her "minister" father (those scare quotes mean "was he the principal pastor of a congregation of hundreds, or, say, one of 5 ministers in a congregation that had 10 active families?" If the latter, did he minister primarily by being an example that a hound dog who's fixated on a church-going woman can turn his life around ... as long as she survives?) said "Your voice isn't really right for church work, and i know you're so faithful a Christian that your faith won't be at hazard touring in something called the Hot Harlem Revue"? Could the mother's death have been a stronger factor than the daughter's love of music, e.g. was going on the road professionally her only alternative to prostitution, as a way out of a no longer tenable family life?
I almost satisfied my concern with a fact tag:
but the assertion is such an incomplete explanation of her leaving as to be implausible without more detail. If nothing like
or
or
can be verified -- or at least attributed to a specific person who was there for the event -- the article is better stating the event without pretending that some unidentified person's PoV abt her motivations is verification. (Note she was presumably not yet 26 when "Hound Dog" was written "for her" in 1952 and presumably already had the razor scars that Leiber or Stoller (in the other's presence) describes on her face; facial razor scars, BTW, are IMO
prima facie evidence of not knowing as an adult what one's own motivations were at 14 -- hell, i've got no real sense of what my own motivations were at 14, and my youth has to have been a lot simpler than hers.) "Left at 14 by joining the HHR" is a fact that can stand without explanation; "left at 14 for the sake of music" is PoV, and since it is problematically incomplete, failing to clarify whose PoV makes it unsound, and unworthy of inclusion.
The work in the ref on that sentence is not on line, but is a library standard around here; i'll try to report back on whether its content is sufficient to repair the sentence.
(In any case the citation is probably wrong: Gates is an editor (BTW the second of two) of the 2000-page work; if the article is anonymous, that should be said, and otherwise the title of the article needs to be include, the individual author needs to be, and the editor(s), if at all, cited only as eds of the larger work. In case i get sidetracked, i'm removing the confusing and probably erroneous author )
--
Jerzy•
t 22:49, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
I Have a version of Tom Cat by Willie Mae Thornton from the early fifties which sounds very familiar to Hound Dog does anyone else have this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.71.8.24 ( talk) 23:22, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
I removed the reference to this compilation, as I can find no release for Big Mama Thornton called 'The Complete Okeh Sessions'; only Big Maybelle (not a pseudonym, but a different person) has a release that matches. Also, there is no evidence that I can find that Thornton recorded for Okeh. A Google search will quickly verify this. Euchrid9 ( talk) 08:55, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
Is there so little known of her personal life that it's not being included, or is it that people don't find it important enough? I'd like to see some of it, though I myself don't have the knowledge to add relevant points. 109.91.98.41 ( talk) 23:19, 23 June 2011 (UTC)Feirefiz
I find the bolded section quite confusing. Big Mama is traditionally viewed as a blues artist, and the blues was not a field "dominated by white males" in the 1960s. A quick glance at citation number 5 suggests that the author is considering Big Mama as a rock-n-roll star, which would explain the comment about white males, though she's never been classified as rock (and for good reason).
I don't know much about Big Mama and I know even less about feminist views of her, so would someone more knowledgeable please fix this? Phiwum ( talk) 18:25, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Well, what I can access of Mahon, includes this... "Thornton flouted the expectations of dominant black and white middle-class arbiters of propriety." Nothing about "white supremacist." I've tried several ways to gain access to the full article. Mahon claims Thornton had an influence on two rock n rollers, etc, not that was was one. Also, reference 5 is a coffee table book, and there is no page number in the cite. I could live with tagging this material, or deleting it, or changing it to reflect what is publicly available on line. What do other editors think? Steve Pastor ( talk) 00:04, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
In your article concerning Mama Thornton’s famous hits you state:
"However, her success was overshadowed three years later, when Elvis Presley recorded his more popular rendition of "Hound Dog".[4] Similarly, Thornton's "Ball 'n' Chain" (written in 1961 but not released until 1968) had a bigger impact when performed and recorded by Janis Joplin from 1967."
What is missing are the reasons why Presley and Joplin received more recognition than Thronton for her songs. It had little to with Presley’s and Joplin’s talent, (both of whom imitated African-American musical dance and style), as it had to do with the structural racism/Apartheid system, in which African-American artists were not allowed to display their various talents in many major venues, thus, limiting their ability to gain national and international acclaim for their talent. They were also not given fair music contracts and royalties.
I am a product of this era, and know first hand how difficult it was for African-American artists to even appear on major TV shows or have their music played on the radio. Their music was often limited and confined to African-American radio shows and Juke-Joints. Mediocre talented whites, who could successfully imitate African-American talent, were always given broad and international wide venues, and generous contracts/royalties to deliberately overshadow and profit from African-American talent. Just as it pretty much remains today.
This article is somewhat deceptive because of this historical omission. It is important to include some historical narrative on how institutional and structural racism limited African-Americans from benefiting from their own intellectual and creative talents. It would also shed correct light as to why Thornton’s songs, (who is clearly a far superior talent than either Presley or Joplin), did not gain the national recognition they deserved, until these two white artists sang them. As it stands, this article reads as if these two artists were somehow superior in talent, which is a total misrepresentation of history, and does a disservice to Thornton’s enormous talent and legacy. 2600:1700:E90:9410:C470:99E9:F705:5CE1 ( talk) 18:55, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
Ghmyrtle ( talk) 10:54, 15 January 2018 (UTC)She was the first to record Leiber and Stoller's " Hound Dog", in 1952, [1] which became her biggest hit, staying seven weeks at number one on the Billboard R&B chart in 1953 [2] and selling almost two million copies; [3] the song was later a hit for Elvis Presley. [4] Thornton's other recordings included the original version of " Ball 'n' Chain".
References
russell
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).pc7
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).There is a Willie Mae Rock Camp referred to in the article as part of her legacy. The website of the Encyclopaedia of Alabama lists her as Willie Mae "Big Mama" Thornton. Should the page title be changed? Alison hunter ( talk) 18:52, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
"Similarly, Thornton originally recorded her song "Ball 'n' Chain" for Bay-Tone Records in the early 1960s, "and though the label chose not to release the song... they did hold on to the copyright"—which meant that Thornton missed out on the publishing royalties when Janis Joplin recorded the song later in the decade." Everything about this claim is false. In the video Gunsmoke Blues, available on youtube at 13:20 Big Mama talks about Ball and Chain, and that she gets a check from "her Ball and Chain" and check "for Janis" "from BMI." (I don't know the time index for the DVD version) She also talks in that video about Elvis and Hound Dog, and not getting anything, and him even refusing to play with her when the producers tried to set up the show. That is presented for comparison in the video. It is just a slander on Janis Joplin, something that would break Big Mama's heart. 71.63.160.210 ( talk) 02:54, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
It would be best to use a similar (but shorter) wording here, though I don't have all the sources. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 08:00, 19 September 2020 (UTC)According to Gaar, Thornton originally had recorded the song for Bay-Tone Records in the early 1960s, although the label did not issue it. [1] Gaar adds that "[Bay-Tone held] on to the copyright—which meant that Thornton missed out on the publishing royalties when Janis Joplin recorded the song later in the decade." [1] However, Thornton's (and Big Brother/Joplin's) releases list "W.M. Thornton" as the songwriter, as well as the performing rights administrator BMI. [2] By another account, Thornton signed an agreement with Bay Tone which caused problems with later releases. [3] In a 1972 interview, Thornton acknowledged giving Joplin permission to record the song and receiving royalty payments from its sales. [4]
References
Gaar
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).So I'm reading along and in the middle of the section "Later career and death" I encounter this strange non-sequitur: "In the early 1970s, Thornton's sexual proclivities became a question among blues fans". [1] Sentence comes out of the blue, a propos of nothing, and goes nowhere. Proclivities? uhhh, like what? Lesbian? Younger men? BDSM? What and or why do we need to know about BMT's "sexual proclivities" late in her career? Unless someone knows something about this, explains how it's important to Wikipedia readers, and is willing to expand on the statement I'm going to remove it. Classicfilmbuff ( talk) 19:13, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Listed as 'Live' on Wiki but I don't think it is. There's no audience noise or applause. Studio album. 51.6.240.244 ( talk) 11:43, 7 May 2024 (UTC)