Wikipedia requires that
all content be verifiable, for this reason no country will be listed in the infobox as an Axis power unless
independent, reliable sources on the topic of WW2 can be presented explicitly describing them as an Axis power. If you want a country to be included in the infobox, please find sources to support this before opening a discussion.
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Axis powers article. This is
not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Q1: Why is country X included in the list of Axis countries in the infobox?
A1: Because reliable sources, cited in the article, describe it as an Axis country. If you think that a country presently included in this list should NOT be included in it, please describe why reliable sources do not support it being included here, and if possible provide sources backing up this position. Particularly in the case of Finland, this has been discussed many, many times, so please review the talk-page archive to see if you have any new points to raise on this topic.
Q2: Why is country X NOT included in the list of Axis countries included in the infobox?
A2: Only the countries for which reliable sources have been found, describing the country unambiguously as a member of the Axis, should be included. If you think a country should be added to the list, please provide reliable sources that clearly and unambiguously state that they were members of the Axis. Please note that particularly Vichy France, Iraq, Spain, the Soviet Union, and the various puppet-states of the Axis outside of the ones that are included in this list have been discussed a large number of times here, so please review the discussions before opening a new discussion to see if the point you want to make has already been discussed.
Q3: Why aren't only Tripartite Pact signatories included as Axis members in the infobox?
A3: Because this article is not about the
Tripartite Pact, which has its own article. Similarly, it is also not about the
Anti-Comintern Pact. Instead it is about the Axis, which reliable sources describe as having a membership different to that of the Tripartite Pact and the Anti-Comintern Pact.
Q4: Why aren't puppet states and colonies included as Axis members in the infobox?
A4: Some puppet states may be included as members of the Axis powers where there are reliable sources stating that this is what they were, however, where no source says that a country was a member of the Axis, simply having been a puppet state or colony of a member of the Axis is insufficient to make it a member of the Axis if reliable sources do not describe it as such.
Q5: Why are other states, that were not members of the Axis, discussed in the body-text of the article?
A5: States and movements that had notable relations with the Axis, for example states the leadership of which gave serious consideration to joining the Axis, should be discussed to the extent relevant. Relevance should be decided in consensus with other editors - if in doubt, please discuss on the talk page here.
Q6: Why was membership of the Axis, as listed in the infobox, decided to only include those clearly and unambiguously described as being members of the Axis in reliable sources?
A6: In
a discussion on the talk page in January 2021 it was decided to remove all countries which no reliable sources clearly described as being a member of the Axis. The reasoning was that by including countries that no reliable source actually identified as Axis powers but which some editors had characterised as "Axis co-belligerents", a term with no basis in reliable sources, we were essentially engaging in
original research and going outside the topic of the article, which is about the Axis powers and not about wars fought parallel to the wars fought by the Axis.
Q7: I disagree with the criteria used to determine what should be included as a member of the Axis in this article!
A7:Consensus can change, please feel free to open a discussion here about how you think the article should address the question of which states should be included as members of the Axis in this article. Please also review the prior discussions in the archive to see whether your proposed way of deciding Axis membership has already been discussed.
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the Balkans or Eastern Europe, which has been
designated as a contentious topic.
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Co-Belligerents to the axis powers (Iraq and Vichy France) should be mentioned in the info box like how Co-Belligerents of the allies are mentioned in their info box.— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Salfanto (
talk •
contribs) 16:33, 30 October 2023 (UTC)reply
No. This article is about the Axis Powers. Therefore, in the infobox, it lists the Axis powers, not countries that weren't Axis powers.
"Co-belligerents of the Axis powers" wasn't, historically, a thing. The only country whose wartime government claimed to have been a "co-belligerent" of the Axis was Finland, but this was seen as a position taken simply for propaganda purposes even at the time, was denied by the post-war government of Finland and the Allies, and is not a position agreed with even by the majority of Finnish historians surveyed on the subject, let alone those in other countries. Numerous sources simply identify Finland as having been an Axis country.
Specifically in the case of Vichy France and Iraq, does any source actually describe these places as "co-belligerents"? Let alone "co-belligerents of the Axis powers"?
FOARP (
talk) 11:12, 20 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes.
Führer Directive No. 30 ordered German support for Iraq's Arab nationalists. In Vichy France's case, they fought against the allies in North Africa,
Syria and Lebanon and did "anti-partisan" work in occupied france.
Salfanto (
talk) 15:04, 27 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Führer Directive No. 30 isn't a source for that. A secondary source specifically referencing "co-Bellierants" is needed.
DeCausa (
talk) 20:24, 27 January 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Salfanto - Führer Directive No. 30 ordered German support for Iraq's Arab nationalists - Führer Directive No. 30 was not an alliance of any kind. It also did not confer any particular status on the recipients of the aid granted under it. Führer Directive No. 30 also was explicitly compared the aid being given to Iraq to that given to Spain - was Spain also an Axis member? Or even a co-belligerent of the Axis?
WW2 is possibly the most written-about part of global history. If any country had been a memeber of the Axis, secondary sources would say as much without caveats. If there is not a single secondary source explicitly identifying Iraq as having been a member of the Axis, or even a "co-belligerent" (whatever that would mean in this context), then it is difficult for anyone to make the case that Iraq was an Axis member or "co-belligerent". We have a number of sources that list the Axis powers. They, at most, typically list the countries already in the infobox. None lists Iraq or Vichy France as having been an Axis power.
The topic of this article is "the Axis Powers". There is no reason to list countries that were not Axis Powers in the infobox. This is a topic that has been absolutely done to death on this page, particularly as once Iraq and Vichy France were added, people inevitably tried to add the Soviet Union (who actually did sign an alliance with Germany, and attacked a member of the Allies). See particularly the discussions linked in the FAQ above.
FOARP (
talk) 15:04, 29 January 2024 (UTC)reply
However, the
Manchukuo article states (see history for attribution):
"In the 1940s the Vatican established full diplomatic relations with Japan, but it resisted Japanese and Italian pressure to recognize Manchukuo and the
Nanking regime."
This seems like a contradiction, but correct me if I'm wrong.
@
Henry James Gomerson - Agreed. Our article on Manchukuo explains that this is a misimpression that came from the Bertolucci film, The Last Emperor.
This source and
this source appear to confirm that the Vatican did not recognise Manchukuo. No source is given on this page for the diplomatic relations of Manchukuo so you can simply delete the unsourced material.
FOARP (
talk) 13:14, 30 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Not done: please provide
reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The FAQ at the top says "Only the countries for which reliable sources have been found, describing the country unambiguously as a member of the Axis, should be included." As discussed previously, co-belligerents of the Axis are not considered members of the Axis and hence do not go in the infobox. The question of including Iraq in the infobox has also been discussed multiple times (see the archives), and consensus has also been against inclusion.
Liu1126 (
talk) 23:40, 9 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Issues with the map of participants in the info-box
Regarding the map of participants in the info-box, it contains inaccuracies:
The USSR is listed as having switched sides from the Axis to the Allies, which is in between complete falsehood and utter lunacy. Neither the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact nor the joint-but-time-offset German-Soviet invasion of Poland ever made the USSR a member of the Axis, especially not de jure.
Ethiopia is listed as having switched sides, but how can a colonial government (Italian East Africa) "switch sides" when it was disbanded altogether and replaced with a British military administration?
If Ethiopia is listed as having switches sides, then Italy should have certainty been included in the list as well, but it was not. The situation with the Italian Social Republic complicates the matter, but since France is already dealt with separately (on the map) in terms of Vichy France and German-occupied France, the same could be done with Italy (showing the Italian Social Republic borders at establishment in blue, and the rest of Italy in blue but with a "switched sides from the Axis to the Allies" marker).
Ethiopia went from being an Italian colony to one that had been liberated and Ethiopia's full sovereignty was restored with the signing of the Anglo-Ethiopian Agreement in December 1944 (duing Ww2).
Slatersteven (
talk) 13:02, 9 April 2024 (UTC)reply
We do not list the USSR as a member of the Axis.
Slatersteven (
talk) 13:03, 9 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Where’s iraq
Iraq was an axis state in 1941 and fought alongside german forces against invading british troops
78.170.227.224 (
talk) 00:56, 12 May 2024 (UTC)reply
In the section headed "7 Bilateral Pacts with the Axis Powers".
Slatersteven (
talk) 10:33, 12 May 2024 (UTC)reply