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BetacommandBot02:16, 27 August 2007 (UTC)reply
Messager's recordings
I only have the Saint-Saens prelude and the two Delibes pieces (on CD VG 665 001) but looking at the Holoman link, my understanding is that all the pieces recorded (including those not issued) lasted four and a half minutes (to fit on one side) but that the length of the Rimsky piece and Rouet d'Omphale meant that only extracts of these could be recorded to fit a side.
Cg2p0B0u8m (
talk)
21:29, 19 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Done. I have also added dates where available in the following paragraphs, as suggested by
Ssilvers. For the early 78 individual numbers I cannot find the original dates, and it would be misleading to give the dates of their CD reissues. Dates are given for all the recordings of the LP and CD eras. —
Tim riley (
talk)
09:47, 20 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Recent UK productions
Despite his succession of English hits, his English wife and his Covent Garden post, I am concerned not to overload this article with British references. I hesitate, therefore, to mention the following UK productions of recent years, and would be grateful for comment on whether to do so or not. Fortunio was given at
Grange Park Opera in 2001; L'Amour Masque: the French company Opera de Tours brought it to the
Edinburgh Festival in 2005; Véronique was done at the
Buxton Festival in 2009. —
Tim riley (
talk)
08:38, 20 August 2010 (UTC)reply
I don't mind mentioning them. I believe that the correct remedy to "too much x" is to add some "y", not to deprive the reader of "x", so long as x is notable. --
Ssilvers (
talk)
14:35, 20 August 2010 (UTC)reply
This is the first time I have undertaken a GA review so I will be grateful for any advice, support, brickbats etc. I am just giving the article a first trawl now.--
Smerus (
talk)
12:49, 19 September 2010 (UTC)reply
OK: To start with the article seems to me to be generally GA-esque. It is well-sourced, covers many (if not quite all - I will comment on this later) areas of the topic, is NPOV, has not been the subject of edit-wars (an edit war on Messager would indeed signal intensive intellectual passion amongst WP editors), and is extensively referenced from reliable sources.
I've come up with a minor stumbling block at the start - the two sets of composite images provided by
User:Tim riley, whilst they seem to me efficient instruments, present some problems in verifying image use policy; athough they are stated to be compiled from WikiCommons free licence originals, aren't we supposed to check those orginals to make absolutely sure they are kosher? I only ask because I want to know.
I did so a little while ago, and found that the picture of Chabrier I originally used was the only one not satisfactorily accounted for. The images of the other three composers and the four leading ladies were certainly published early enough to qualify as Public Domain. (I imagine that the first image of Chabrier did too, but it wasn't possible to demonstrate that, so I have replaced it with the painting by Manet, who died in 1883, so is safely out of copyright.)
Tim riley (
talk)
08:57, 26 September 2010 (UTC)reply
And I have a hiccup with the end of the first paragraph - 'international sensations'? This is not substantiated by the text (although it may well be true for all I know) - some rewording here would be best I think. The article also mentions
Savoy Opera in the lead, but only talks about the
Savoy Theatre in the text. As the WP article on 'Savoy Opera' defines it as an operatic style, not exclusive to the Savoy Theatre, this might best be clarified.
I addressed this last comment and will clarify further in the text below. However, if you look more closely at the Savoy opera article, you will see that it defines Savoy opera as a specific group of operas that are listed in the article as much as a style. --
Ssilvers (
talk)
14:58, 20 September 2010 (UTC)reply
1st para.3 consecutive sentences all have the same ref. Perhaps elide into two sentences, e.g. 'After a bank crash brought ruin' etc., and just have one ref. Penultimate sentence -suggest 'Niedermeyer's school' rather than 'the Niedermeyer'.
Last para - the 'Ring' quadrilles are skittish, (and fun to play), but why announce Grove so portentously before this, rather than just using it in the citation? (I see on checking up that the same comment applies to the Fauré article).
Is the article missing a trick re Mary Gardner? She premiered Melisande under Messager's baton - but she doesn't get mentioned till the next section , Twentieth century. Perhaps slip the whole para about Pélleas to this later section - it was after all in 1902 - and clarify the Garden relationship timings a bit.
The performers whose photographs I have used so far are four who performed in Messager's own works, but as Garden was associated with Messager both on and stage, so to speak, we could certainly justify her inclusion. I have added her. (The image satisfies copyright criteria.)
Tim riley (
talk)
08:57, 26 September 2010 (UTC)reply
A general point about Messager's music. The only section which starts to deal with Messager's actual music (as opposed to an excellent chronology of his output) is the Wagstaff quote which is buried on 'Honours, Awards and Reputation'. I rather feel this inhibits the GA-status of the article (perhaps the only factor which really does). It is after all interesting that Messager had a high reputation for conducting Debussy and Wagner but that (as far as I can understand from the article) he did not avail himself of any of their innovations in harmony, structure or orchestration. The other comments show him as relentlessly 'middle-of-the-road'. Some wider consideration of this situation in a section devoted to specifically to Messager's music might be helpful if possible.
It is indeed noticeable that as a conductor and director Messager was very go-ahead but did not draw on Wagner, Debussy et al for his own compositional style. I suppose the reason is simply one of genre. Ballets (until Stravinsky) and operettas were not seen as vehicles for the avant garde. Messager's own style certainly changed considerably over the years, from the very nineteenth-century operette, to 20th C musical comedy, as mentioned in the quote from Wagstaff/Février. I have moved the music section up to a slot of its own, and expanded it.
Tim riley (
talk)
08:57, 26 September 2010 (UTC)reply
Recordings. I am personally sceptical of paragraphs like 'Singers who have recorded individual numbers...' This is just a list of names - why these in particular out of many hundreds possible? What - if anything - is special about any of these recordings? What - if anything - do they tell us about Messager and/or his music? If nothing, then why the list in this article? Or am I just being a grouch?
I like the idea of noting some singers whose recordings of Messager's songs achieved particular popularity. Perhaps Tim could trim the list a bit and perhaps say a word or two about the popularity of these recordings or note if the recording was in some other way of note? --
Ssilvers (
talk)
15:17, 20 September 2010 (UTC)reply
My point in mentioning these few names is to give a representative sample, in particular showing that each generation has had singers who performed Messager's works. I think simply saying "Each generation has had singers who performed Messager's works", without mentioning a few is rather lame.
Tim riley (
talk)
08:57, 26 September 2010 (UTC)reply
Notes. Many of the sources (e.g. Fournier) are mentioned only in the citations themselves. The best practice is to place all the sources in the sources section and have the citations refer to them by author , date and page where appropriate.--
Smerus (
talk)
06:35, 20 September 2010 (UTC)reply
If I understand this comment, I disagree with it. I believe that WP practice at FA is to place only the books in the sources section and to leave the news, journal and web references only in the in-line footnotes. --
Ssilvers (
talk)
15:17, 20 September 2010 (UTC)reply
I stand corrected on my point as I made it; however there are still a number of books in the notes which on this basis should go into 'sources'.--
Smerus (
talk)
08:15, 22 September 2010 (UTC)reply
Now fixed. I have had to blitz a couple of good (and no doubt true) points added by a previous editor which unfortunately lack full referencing. -
Tim riley (
talk)
09:17, 26 September 2010 (UTC)reply
Thank you for these excellent points; I am much encouraged thereby. I am in the heart of the countryside until next weekend, with very limited internet access: I am looking forward to addressing all your points properly on Sat or Sun next. -
Tim riley (
talk)
10:33, 20 September 2010 (UTC)reply
OK I will go on hold till I hear further from you. And when I do it might take me a while to comment further as I am more or less hors de combat from 1st-12th October. Apart from the trivial cleanups etc. it seems to me mainly the point about his music which would be the clincher for GA. --
Smerus (
talk)
12:15, 20 September 2010 (UTC)reply
Hi, Smerus. I have been working on this article for a few years, although Tim's recent work on it has transformed it into a far better article. I have addressed your simpler points above, but leave the difficult ones for Tim :-) Tim, please note that there are still a few hidden questions in the text. Thanks. --
Ssilvers (
talk) 14:58, 20 September 2010 (UTC) All but one now dealt with and removed.
Tim riley (
talk)
09:17, 26 September 2010 (UTC)reply
Another point which has some bearing on both the matters of musical style and recordings. The article has no sound clips, which if available would be a big plus. I notice for example that on YouTube there is at least
one example of an out of copyright recording (although this particular example whilst quite cute may, admittedly, not be especially of interest for the article). I have zero experience in this field myself but perhaps help might be summoned in this matter.--
Smerus (
talk)
13:52, 21 September 2010 (UTC)reply
Smerus, can you help us (or recommend someone who can help) create a sound file if we can come up with an MP3? Neither Tim nor myself is skilled with the Wikicode necessary to upload one in the right format (OGG?). I think Tim can probably make an MP3 with better sound quality than the YouTube video.... --
Ssilvers (
talk)
14:22, 21 September 2010 (UTC)reply
This is definitely an optional extra, not only at GA but at FA. One can get into frightful copyright complications unless one is an expert (things seemingly out of copyright turn out not to be etc), and I'll leave this to those who are technically inclined.
Tim riley (
talk)
08:57, 26 September 2010 (UTC)reply
Yet another point which has occured to me (you can see I am new to this sort of thing) - this time about pictures. I don't see that the pic of the memorial plate at his birthplace adds anything useful - especially as there is a pic of the birthplace itself. And why not add a pic of Mary Garden? since she seems to have played a larger role in M's life than the other leading ladies shown.--
Smerus (
talk)
08:11, 22 September 2010 (UTC)reply
I agree about Mary. There are plenty of images of her, but I'll leave it to Tim as to how to fit it into that crowded part of the article. Perhaps we don't need the image of the opera house. As for the plaque, I think is is very nice-looking, while the birthplace itself, IMO, is utterly uninteresting. Do you feel strongly about deleting it? There is plenty of room for images near the bottom of the article where the plaque image is, currently. --
Ssilvers (
talk)
14:06, 22 September 2010 (UTC)reply
Hm, this could develop into a powerfully sterile discussion :-} - which is more nugatory (or more Messageresque), a photo of a plaque that is just like any other plaque but bears his name, or one of a house which is admittingly uninteresting per se but has the mystic quality of his having been born there? Perhaps Tim could make a composite of the two, as with the quatrefoils of people. I won't lose any sleep over it anyway - how much easier I am finding it carping at other people's efforts than writing articles myself! I am content, on this point, to go with any way that Tim or other editors feel. appropriate.--
Smerus (
talk)
16:22, 22 September 2010 (UTC)reply
OK then - here we go................
Firstly may I thank Tim and Ssilvers for their contributions and patience with me as I try to get the hang of GA reviewing.
Secondly may I say that I have enjoyed reading the article and nosing around some of the references. I think all I knew before of Messager was the Bayreuth quadrilles and the last act of Veronique which I heard at the Proms 1000 years ago. He seems a genial character and I knew nothing of his very important role as a conductor, so the article will certainly make me search out more about the man and his music. Which I suppose is one of the things WP should be about.
Assessment
So here is my GA review (see
WP:WIAGA for criteria)
A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have
fair use rationales:
Seem fine
B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with
suitable captions:
Well illustrated.Might be nice to have some sound clips, but I appreciate that copyright here can be a mine-field - and anyway this is not a criterion at GA level.
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At the peer review of this article, one reviewer asked if we knew how long Messager's second marriage lasted, as one source merely said the couple later separated. I still haven't found the answer in any source, but I just note here that in her memoirs, Mary Garden recalled that Madame Messager was present when Debussy played through Pelléas et Mélisande for the cast before rehearsals for the premiere began in 1902. (Mary Garden: Mary Garden's Story, 1951, p. 62) Tim riley talk12:39, 11 April 2018 (UTC)reply
Never crossed my mind she might have her own article in Grove, but I've checked it out and it doesn't help. I'm fairly sure she and AM were never divorced – merely separated, whether formally or not – so "widow" would be right. She is listed as AM's wife in Who's Who right up to the end of his life. Good point about the 1911 census. I have access via the Wellcome Library and will look her up there. If she is listed and AM isn't it would surely be of significance in this context. Tim riley talk19:03, 11 April 2018 (UTC)reply
I've checked the obits in The NYT, The Times and Le Figaro, and there's nothing in there about her separating from Messager. (Not the sort of thing obits mentioned in 1938, so not a great surprise.) No trace of her in the 1911 UK census. That doesn't prove she was still living with Messager, or that she didn't have a house in England: she could have been abroad on holiday, Still, the fact that their 12-year-old daughter is also not found in the census does slightly suggest that they were living abroad, whether with Messager or not one cannot say. I leave this on this talk page as reference (such as it is) until such time as anything more definite comes to light. Tim riley talk20:39, 12 April 2018 (UTC)reply
The website of the Association l'Art Lyrique Français reproduces a 1925 picture of
Messager and a wifely-looking woman (scroll down to near the bottom of the page). I can't decide if I think she does or doesn't look like a middle-aged version of the young woman in the People Maven and National Portrait Gallery photos, mentioned earlier in this talk-page thread. But I think she probably is. Though Messager had affairs, I've seen nothing in any biography to suggest he had a live-in mistress, and this quite formal picture does rather convey respectable domesticity. Tim riley talk08:56, 16 April 2018 (UTC)reply
Two things: first, the list in the Messager article is much more detailed than that on the 'list of works' page, and the former should replace the latter if we want two separate articles, though why we need two articles is not obvious to me. Secondly, if we do move the list from the present page to the list page we most definitely don't need a "selected works" remnant on the original page: selected by whom, on what criteria? – highly unencyclopedic. I can't think of a single FA on a composer where we have such a thing. Tim riley talk11:10, 4 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Support I guess. Would agree with Tim above that the best approach would be to just replace the composition list with the list in this article and not leave a "selected works" section. Having a "selected works" section is an extremely old and now virtually unused practice.
Aza24 (
talk)
09:14, 5 November 2020 (UTC)reply
I agree with removal of the tag. If the List of compositions article is not more detailed, it should be deleted and redirected to this section. --
Ssilvers (
talk)
03:03, 31 January 2021 (UTC)reply
The article already quotes Hahn, but I found an interesting bit in: Bernard Gavoty. Reynaldo Hahn – Le musicien de la Belle Epoque. Éditions Buchet / Chastel, Paris, 1976, p59.
It says that according to Hahn, as quoted by Gavoty, [re L'Île de Rêve, 1898] Messager was the first theatre conductor to break with the tradition of "conducting within" a pit orchestra, to standing fully at the front of the orchestra facing all the musicians and singers. I wondered if this was worth weaving in somehow?
Cg2p0B0u8m (
talk)
21:10, 28 June 2023 (UTC)reply
I didn't know about this "conducting within" tradition. Now I look into the matter I find that an engraving of the première of Lully's Alceste (1674) shows a man, possibly Lully himself, standing among the instrumentalists, facing the stage and beating time, and an engraving from the Illustrated London News, 8 December 1856, p. 563, shows the conductor at Covent Garden standing between the orchestra and the stage, with his back to the orchestra and audience. On the other hand, I think I have seen sketches of Verdi, Wagner and Sullivan in the pit, conducting from what is now the usual position, facing all the players and singers. If "conducting within" remained the general practice in French opera houses until Messager's day I'd feel more comfortable if we had another source to back up what Gavoty says Hahn said. I've just found online
a 900+ page tome on the history of conducting, and will look through it when I have time and report back here. – Tim riley talk07:42, 29 June 2023 (UTC)reply
One piece of corroborative detail: in his treatise on conducting, Berlioz, noting that in the opera house (as opposed to the concert hall) the conductor did not face the orchestra, objected that "This way has the disadvantage . . . when the conductor turns his back to the orchestra, as in theatres . . . of permitting only a small number of musicians to perceive the very important indication of the second beat". I'm reasonably persuaded that putting the conductor in the middle of the orchestra, or between the orchestra and the stage, was at one time the done thing, and I have no reason to suppose that Hahn erred in saying that Messager was the first chef d'orchestre to abandon it in French opera pits, but I should feel happier if we could have it unequivocally confirmed from another source. If we can, then I should say it's worth a succinct mention in the article. – Tim riley talk11:48, 29 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Thank you for your very comprehensive reply, and yes it would be good to have corroboration from somewhere else. Photos and engravings might also help. I might try to locate that book next time I am at 35 St Martin's Street. Anyway, I thought I would just mention it.
Cg2p0B0u8m (
talk) 21:59, 29 June 2023 (UTC) (I should add that Gavoty/Hahn claim on that page that it was at this time that choristers began to move, and wear make-up; presumably they did not up to then... interesting stuff)
Cg2p0B0u8m (
talk)
22:02, 29 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Ah, the Westminster reference library! I used to work five minutes away, at 16 Carlton House Terrace, overlooking The Mall. A much loved Italian restaurant, Val Taro (where Ssilvers and I have dined when he was in London), right opposite was an additional attraction, but the owners retired at about the time I did, and it is now a workspace for the National Gallery. Heigh ho! Tim riley talk14:00, 30 June 2023 (UTC)reply