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Use of Sahih Bukhari for age during marriage consummation
Sahih Bukhari is among the most adhered hadith collection in the Islamic world. It states that, her marriage was consummated at such age when she still played with dolls.[1] In the commentary of the Sahih Bukhari it is written that, "Playing with dolls is forbidden in Islam, but it was allowed for Aisha at that time, as she did not yet reach the age of puberty."[2]
Can this part be added in the article? Does this part violates any WikiPedia policy?
Kawrno Baba (
talk) 07:45, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Kawrno Baba, even if you bring another non-religious
RS source for this, the content's lack of relevance detracts from the article's quality and appears gratuitous.
StarkReport (
talk) 08:05, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
//the content's lack of relevance//
Are you being serious right now? Whether or not Aisha reached puberty before consummation of her marriage is a huge debate worldwide. On that topic I cited reliable source widely accepted in the Islamic world. What's the issue then? The said content is not only relevant, but crucial.
If you don't find it relevant, then please delete all the 'controversy with Aisha's age of marriage and consummation' from the article; by your logic that whole part is irrelevant.
Kawrno Baba (
talk) 08:30, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Kawrno Baba, Kindly note that the primary concern of the section is to provide a overview of the historical perspectives and scholarly discourse on Aisha's age at marriage, rather than delving into specific details such as her activities at the time. The unnecessary commentary on doll-playing in Islam veers off-topic. The issue of determining her age has already been more than addressed extensively.
Now whether she played with dolls or her hair or toys cars is not a factor in this "huge debate worldwide."
StarkReport (
talk) 09:14, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
@
StarkReport, why playing with dolls is significant for Aisha at the time of consummation is of huge importance. And the reason is explicitly stated in the revision.
Playing with dolls is prohibited in Islam. But it is permissible for girls till puberty.
The debate concerning her age has several parts. One, the question is if we should debate over an ancient law based on present law. Two, that the ancient law has some morality in it. So in the light of second point, it is often told that, yes, her marriage got consummated when she was very young, but at least she reached puberty, id est, maturity.
For that claim the said hadith and the commentary is very relevant.
Kawrno Baba (
talk) 09:28, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
My proposed revision:
The commentary[3] for a hadith[4] regarding Aisha's age during marriage explains that, the consummation of her marriage was done before she reached puberty.
I tried to be as brief as possible in one sentence.
Kawrno Baba (
talk) 14:17, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
But the
hadith and commentary do not mention the marriage being consummated. It says Narrated `Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for `Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fath-ul-Bari page 143, Vol.13) (Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 6130. In-book reference: Book 78, Hadith 157. USC-MSA web (English) reference: Vol. 8, Book 73, Hadith 151.) Is this explained more fully in Fath-ul-Bari page 143, Vol.13? If it is, please can we have a translated quotation that is long enough for an educated person without specialised knowledge to understand that this is what is meant.--
Toddy1(talk) 19:13, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
The part 'my dwelling place' means her dwelling place at Muhammad's house. Muhammad made separate dwelling places for his wives. Her marriage got consummated the day Muhammad took to 'her dwelling place' from her father's house. See '
The History of Al-Tabari, volume 39, page 172-173.
Kawrno Baba (
talk) 15:23, 15 April 2024 (UTC)reply
So what we have here is a chain of statements, that could potentially be put in the article - but we are far from be ready to do that:
Aisha's marriage got consummated the day Muhammad took her to 'her dwelling place' from her father's house. You say you can provide a citation to Tabari Volume 39 for that. If you use the State University of New York Press editions of Tabari, they have useful commentaries in the introduction - maybe they talk about this and its significance - if so you have a secondary source.
But so far this is
WP:OR, because you are combining statements from different sources to reach a conclusion that is not explicitly stated in the sources. But maybe the introduction to Tabari Volume 39 gets you out of that hole. If not, you need to find another reliable secondary source that puts it all together the way you have.--
Toddy1(talk) 15:39, 15 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I shall search for what you stated. My point of view is let properly cited contents stay side by side and let readers judge and decide.
Kawrno Baba (
talk) 17:15, 17 April 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Toddy1,
This hadith and
this hadith says she had her dolls with her when the prophet consummated the marriage at her age of nine. Will these do?
Kawrno Baba (
talk) 10:34, 1 May 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Brusquedandelion, If I want to post my version of the content, what materials do I need to have as support?
Kawrno Baba (
talk) 15:58, 1 May 2024 (UTC)reply
You would need a
reliable,
secondary source making the same conclusions about this hadith as you are, all while keeping
WP:WEIGHT in mind and summarizing dissenting views, if they exist, as appropriate.
Brusquedandelion (
talk) 00:21, 5 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Sahih Bukhari صحیح بخاری
Hadith # 5134
Translation:
Narrated Aisha (RA) :
that the Prophet ﷺ married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that Aisha (RA) remained with the Prophet ﷺ for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)
The prophet nuptial with Ayisha was done in the age of 6 this marriage doesn't mean the the Prophet did intercourse with her in the age of 6 it means nuptial a marriage agreement before marriage
37.111.176.141 (
talk) 01:36, 21 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Nowhere does that Hadith even mention consummation, you are being eminently dishonest.
Brusquedandelion (
talk) 19:12, 20 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Not everything needs to clearly stated. A person should be able to understand what is implied.
Kawrno Baba (
talk) 09:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Sorry, but unless you have a
WP:RS making the same claim, that's just your own
WP:OR.
Brusquedandelion (
talk) 22:30, 28 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comparison of the two versions
Previous version
Kawrno Baba's proposed new version
Islamic sources of the classical era list Aisha's age at the time of her marriage as six or seven and nine or ten at its consummation. In a hadith from
Sahih al-Bukhari, Aisha recollects having been married at six years of age.[5]Ibn Sa'd's biography holds her age at the time of marriage as between six and seven, and gives her age at consummation to be nine while
Ibn Hisham's biography of Muhammad suggests she may have been ten years old at consummation.[6]Al-Tabari notes Aisha to have stayed with her parents after the marriage and consummated the relationship at nine years of age since she was young and sexually immature at the time of marriage; however, elsewhere Tabari appears to suggest that she was born during the
Jahiliyyah (before 610 C.E), which would translate to an age of about twelve or more at marriage.[7][8]
Islamic sources of the classical era list Aisha's age at the time of her marriage as six or seven and nine or ten at its consummation. In a hadith from
Sahih al-Bukhari, Aisha recollects having been married at six years of age.[5]Ibn Sa'd's biography holds her age at the time of marriage as between six and seven, and gives her age at consummation to be nine while
Ibn Hisham's biography of Muhammad suggests she may have been ten years old at consummation.[6] Sahih Bukhari states that her marriage was consummated at such age when she still played with dolls.[9][a] In the commentary of the Sahih Bukhari it is written that, "Playing with dolls is forbidden in Islam, but it was allowed for Aisha at that time, as she did not yet reach the age of puberty."[19]Al-Tabari notes Aisha to have stayed with her parents after the marriage and consummated the relationship at nine years of age since she was young and sexually immature at the time of marriage; however, elsewhere Tabari appears to suggest that she was born during the
Jahiliyyah (before 610 C.E), which would translate to an age of about twelve or more at marriage.[7][8]
Note that Kawrno Baba's proposed new version has two undefined citation names in the bundled footnote: <ref name="Watt-encyc-online" /> and <ref name="Spellberg" />. I assume that this because some of the text was adapted from another Wikipedia article.
@
Kawrno Baba: that kind of bundling of references inside a footnote is not an acceptable style. It is better to have the citations in the text: Sahih Bukhari states that her marriage was consummated at such age when she still played with dolls.[7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16] Also, if you copy from another Wikipedia page, please could you state this in the edit summary, and check that your edit includes definitions of the named citations you are moving. --
Toddy1(talk) 08:40, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Toddy1, I did not get that // bundling of references inside a footnote// part. Can you please be more elaborate/clear? I can't relate because so far I have not used any foot note in this article.
And as for copying from another article, thank you for that information.
Kawrno Baba (
talk) 08:51, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
If you look at your proposed text above, it says: Sahih Bukhari states that her marriage was consummated at such age when she still played with dolls.[7][a] The "[a]" is the bundled footnote. If you look at the markup language in your edit,[1] there is a bit that starts {{efn|. That is the start of the bundled footnote. You can see what it looks like in the note section below.--
Toddy1(talk) 09:27, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Thank you. Clear now. I shall be attentive to the matter.
Kawrno Baba (
talk) 09:29, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Kawrno Baba: My guess is that most of the new citations do not actually support the sentences they are cited for, but instead support the generally accepted position about Aisha's age on marriage. i.e. most of them are probably irrelevant to the sentences they are placed next to. --
Toddy1(talk) 08:46, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I used only two references - Sahih Bukhari, and its commentary by Islamic scholar. So I can't tell about other citations.
But you brought a good point and I agree with it.
Kawrno Baba (
talk) 08:53, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Please could you do a version of your proposed text for the talk page that (1) is simplified down to one sentence, and (2) only cites the two references you used. Your edit had ten citations.--
Toddy1(talk) 09:32, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Toddy1, Alright. Where do I do it? Here in reply? Or edit my topic-post (first post of this thread)?
Kawrno Baba (
talk) 13:46, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Here please. But out indent it, and make sure that it has all the citations, etc. that would be needed in the article.--
Toddy1(talk) 13:51, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Hazrat Aisha age at the time of marriage with Prophet PBUH was 19 and when she moved in it was 21. Here is how.
There’s consensus that Aisha was 10 years younger than her elder sister Asma,whose age 28 at the time of the hijrah, or migration to Madina. It can be concluded Aisha was about 18 years old at migration. Hazrat Asma (elder Sister)got married at the age of 26 & Aysha was still at home age 16 (umarried). Aisha Nikkah was performed 3 years later with Prophet (PBUH)at age 19(Tass-Ashra)not just Tass(Ashra was either miss printed or maliciously removed to malign. Hazrat Aisha moved to live with Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)2 years after Nikkah at the age of 21. On her moving to the Prophet’s house,she was a young woman at 21.
Hisham is single narrator of the hadees whose authenticity is challenged bcaz of (Tass-Ashra) Ashra missing to make it look like 9, it doesn’t correlate with the historical facts of the time.Aisha narrates that she was present on the battlefield at the Battle of Badar (Muslim).This leads one to conclude that Hazrat Aisha moved into the Prophet’s house in 1 A.H. But a nine-year-old could not have been taken on a rough and risky military mission.
In 2 A.H, the Prophet refused to take boys of less than 15 years of age to the battle of Uhud. Would he have allowed a 10-year-old girl to accompany him? But Anas reported that he saw Aisha and Umme Sulaim carrying goatskins full of water and serving it to the soldiers (Bukhari). Umme Sulaim and Umme Ammara, the other women present at Uhud,were both strong, mature women whose duties were the lifting of the dead & injured,treating their wounds,carrying water in heavy goatskins, supplying ammunition and even taking up the sword.
Aisha used the kunniat,the title derived from the name of a child,of Umme Abdullah after her nephew and adopted son.If she was 6 when her nikah was performed,she would have been only eight years his senior,hardly making him eligible for adoption.A little girl couldn’t have given up on ever having her own child and used an adopted child’s name for her kunniat.
Aisha’s nephew Urwah once remarked that he wasn’t surprised about her amazing knowledge of Islamic law,poetry,history bcaz she was the wife of the Prophet & the daughter of Abu Bakr. If she was 9 when her father migrated and when did she learn poetry history from him? so the age was 21 not 5 or 6 or 9. Prophets own daughters were married at the age of either 21 or 23.
148.252.146.53 (
talk) 23:17, 21 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Not done: please provide
reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.
This explanation appears to be
original research, which cannot be published on wikipedia. If reliable sources making the same claim exist then they can be added to the section, but the existing sourced information should not be removed per
WP:BALANCE.
Jamedeus (
talk) 00:30, 22 April 2024 (UTC)reply
It's a mere thesis by a student, seems apologetic, and clearly
WP:FRINGE as it deviates significantly from the consensus of reliable secular scholars that Aisha was 6–7 when married and 9 when consummated (see the thread just below). It's just the same as the theory that Muhammad didn't exist or that Mecca at Muhammad's time was actually
Petra. We simply omit such theories since their inclusion would give them
WP:UNDUE weight and create a
WP:FALSEBALANCE. —
Kaalakaa(talk) 16:09, 6 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Well perhaps the author of this essay might be a mere student, the person making the argument, John Little the Oxford professor is a Hadith specialists who is also a secular scholar. Definitely don't think he is a apologist and the author of the essay just seems to think this study will break ground on new counterarguments to the dominant narrative. I think treating this as being the same as the Petra or the theory that Muhammed didn't exist is pretty unfair. The arguments brought forward here is used by a lot of modernist and liberal scholars critical of the original narrator who was known to be unreliable on his own wikipage after he went to Iraq especially given the sectarian arguments and the sectarian fighting over lineage through Aisha's purity status which gives motive to stress how young she was. I feel like I've seen some summarizations of opposing "modernist" or reformist counter arguments. I don't think we are or should be taking these counter arguments as definitive or overrepresent how widely held they are but they should be noted to some extent.
ShortlegPenins (
talk) 04:55, 9 May 2024 (UTC)reply
John Little the Oxford professor
John Little has never been an Oxford professor, he was the student who wrote the thesis.
The arguments brought forward here is used by a lot of modernist and liberal scholars
Name them and cite their works here.
they should be noted to some extent.
They have, look at the article: In response, some Muslims chose to align themselves with the projects of modernization and re-calculated her age — using deft stratagems of omission and commission — to fix it at early adolescence —
Kaalakaa(talk) 05:42, 9 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes that was a typo I meant Joshua Little and that seems perfectly reasonable so if it is turned into a book or is someone else does we should revisit this.
ShortlegPenins (
talk) 00:30, 10 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I agree. Other than the age thing, which wasn't even a "thing" until a few years ago when Muslim apologists started crawling out of the woodwork in reaction to criticism from Islamophobes, what other questions have been repeated? ~
Anachronist (
talk) 06:47, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I am not sure it would help. It is unfortunately normal on talk pages for people (usually IP editors and new accounts) to add their new thing to the talk page, when all they had to do was to look at the table of contents for the talk page to find the answer.--
Toddy1(talk) 09:37, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
The advantage of a FAQ is that it gives us a valid reason to revert on sight the drive-by comments of people who just want to make a point and not engage in discussion. This has worked fairly well on
Talk:Adam's Bridge. The FAQ is in the talk page header (which isn't visible on mobile devices) and as a permanent first section of the talk page (which is visible on mobile devices). If after all that, someone couldn't be bothered to read the FAQ, they wouldn't be bothered to read any replies, so we just revert them. It saves time, and no one has complained (because the poster doesn't come back to the page anyway). ~
Anachronist (
talk) 16:18, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
That seems like a good set of reasons for trying it here. But we should not revert posts on the talk page that are relevant to an ongoing bold-revert-discuss situation on the article page.--
Toddy1(talk) 17:52, 29 April 2024 (UTC)reply
From what I've noticed, some of the most common are:
A simple copy and paste without sources like
this that we can immediately deem as
original research.
Sometimes they would add some religious sources. However, religious sources do not qualify as independent sources according to
WP:IIS standard, and therefore do not meet the criteria of our
WP:SOURCE policy; @Apaugasma gave very good explanations
here.
Requesting that the fringe theory be given a position equal to or higher than the broad consensus of reliable secular sources that state Aisha was 6–7 when married and 9 when consummation ([1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11]). This type of request constitute
WP:FALSEBALANCE and
WP:FRINGE. —
Kaalakaa(talk) 16:28, 30 April 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Kaalakaa: OK, but what are the questions that are frequently asked? The points you make above relate to one question only, which could be phrased as "why does this article say Aisha married at age 6-7 and the marriage was consummated at age 9, when other sources prove she was older?" The points you make can be restated as answers to that question. Are there any other questions that are frequently asked? Or is it just about her age? ~
Anachronist (
talk) 18:42, 30 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Sorry, I've been pretty busy lately, not to mention Hakikatco's ANI case, which lasted quite a while and has just concluded. I haven't really dove much into the archive, but from the most recent ones I see, besides the age issue, it seems to be the image issue. —
Kaalakaa(talk) 16:11, 6 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Semi-protected edit request on 21 May 2024
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
You didn't understood on the Hadith the hadith 5134 says Ayisha`s nuptial was done at the age of 6 and married at the age of 9 " you misunderstood in the nuptial and marriage nuptial is the agreement for marriage not marriage check the hadith in sahi bukhari 5134
37.111.176.141 (
talk) 01:29, 21 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Translation:
Narrated Aisha (RA) :
that the Prophet ﷺ married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that Aisha (RA) remained with the Prophet ﷺ for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart).
Here the first marriage mean agreement for the marriage ( nuptial) at age of 6 which all non muslims considered this that Ayesha was at the age of 6 when the prophet marry her if you read the complete hadith it is cleared that the prophet met with her at the age of 9 and not 6
Basamshah (
talk) 01:43, 21 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Semi-protected edit request on 21 May 2024 (2)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
Translation:
Narrated Aisha (RA) :
that the Prophet ﷺ married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that Aisha (RA) remained with the Prophet ﷺ for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart).
Here is the complete hadith in this Hadith the first marriage doesn't mean that the prophet met ( intercourse) with Ayesha at the age of 6 this marriage mean the marriage agreement ( nuptials) at the end the Hadith clarifies that the prophet met ( intercourse ) wit Ayesha at the age of 9.
Basamshah (
talk) 01:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Semi-protected edit request on 21 May 2024 (2)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
Ayesha married at age of 9 not 6 age 6 is the marriage agreement (nuptials)
Sahih Bukhari صحیح بخاری
Hadith # 5134
Translation:
Narrated Aisha (RA) :
that the Prophet ﷺ married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that Aisha (RA) remained with the Prophet ﷺ for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart).
The first marriage mean a marriage agreement ( nuptial) at the age of 6 years at the end the hadith clarifies that the prophet consummated (intercourse) with her at the age of 9 years.
Basamshah (
talk) 02:33, 21 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Wikipedia has a policy of
no original research. All material in Wikipedia must be
attributable to a
reliable, published source. Articles must not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not clearly stated by the sources themselves. So you cannot use a source that says that he "married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old" to support a statement that he married her when she was nine.
nuptial = wedding
consummated his marriage = sex with with his wife for the first time after the wedding
Your theory implies that most/all English-language translations of Sahih Bukhari Hadith # 5134 are wrong. Wikipedia does not publish new ideas.--
Toddy1(talk) 06:28, 21 May 2024 (UTC)reply
The Aisha Age Controversy
A lot has been said about Aisha's age when marrying the Prophet Muhammad, Whether she was 6, 9, or 16, when she was first betrothed and married.
Prophet Michael, God's Disciple (
talk) 01:23, 23 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes. And your point is ...? Hopefully you can make a point that is relevant to Wikipedia's content policies and guidelines. ~
Anachronist (
talk) 02:53, 23 May 2024 (UTC)reply
My point is, it could make a interesting topic for a wikipedia page. Considering the fact that it's one of the most common criticisms of Muhammad.
2601:C5:100:11:3476:8E75:5EA0:2C3E (
talk) 02:55, 23 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Go right ahead, be
WP:BOLD and go to
WP:AFC, and follow the instructions to start working on a draft. If the topic of the "age controversy" is notable, there should be multiple reliable sources discussing it (not debating her age, but actually reporting on the controversy). ~
Anachronist (
talk) 03:33, 23 May 2024 (UTC)reply