Ancient Germanic studies Project‑class | |||||||
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Since the date of the first sound shift is mainly scholarly guesswork, I suggest that we start with the Nordic Bronze Age. It would align the project with both Template:Germanic peoples and the daughter project Wikipedia:WikiProject Norse history and culture.-- Berig ( talk) 06:58, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I would like to propose the creation of a task force dedicated to runic studies. The details of my proposal are as follows:
Scope: This task force will focus upon the improvement of any and all articles related to runes and runic inscriptions as part of the Ancient Germanic Studies WikiProject.
Specific Goals:
Possible partner WikiProjects:
If created, this task force would have its own page, and would be responsible for developing its own MoS-compliant standards and for generating its own to-do list.
Comments are encouraged. — Aryaman (talk) 14:22, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
[outdent] Thanks for you support. I'll think it over and I hope to finish a version before the end of this month.-- Berig ( talk) 16:23, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I have started it here: Wikipedia:WikiProject Ancient Germanic studies/Runes.-- Berig ( talk) 17:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Assessment will eventually play a significant role in this WikiProject, and it is typical for WikiProjects to have an Assessment page detailing any topic-specific requirements for rating articles within that WikiProject. Although many WikiProjects do not take advantage of the potential offered by a project-specific rating system, we are free to do so, provided that our criteria meet or surpass those otherwise universal to Wikipedia.
Personally, I find the Wikipedia requirements for Start- and B-Class rather indefinite. I also feel that before an article can earn the 'Start-Class' rating, it should represent the results of a thorough research phase, and all the pertinent information should already be present. (In this sense, 'Start' should mean that the article contains all the necessary citable information and is now ready to be edited with a view towards presenting that information in a coherent, MoS-compliant manner.) These, however, are my personal views, and I would appreciate it if others would voice their opinions regarding the possibility of creating a clearer, and perhaps more stringent list of assessment criteria for this WikiProject. — Aryaman (talk) 18:57, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
OK. No one seems to be volunteering here, so I will present what I propose for our project-internal quality rankings. I hope others will have things to add and/or correct here, as I do not want to attempt determining these things on my own. (Please compare the following with: WP:ASSESS) — Aryaman (talk) 15:05, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I think it is very important that we establish what style of reference/footnote formatting this project is to use. The WP:MoS describes several possible methods, and leaves it up to editors to choose one appropriate to their field.
In my experience, most theses, articles and books treating our subject use Harvard referencing. I have been using a slightly modified version of this style in my articles (where no other format is given): an in-line (end of sentence) footnote containing a standard Harvard reference and a References section giving full citation of the work. I find this to be a superior method of referencing, not least of all because it enables editors to include valuable information in the form of footnotes which might not be considered directly relevant to the article itself. (See, for example, the notes section on Ring of Pietroassa.)
I would like to hear from other editors on this subject. — Aryaman (talk) 12:34, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
[outdent] Yes, you're right that the cf. annotation can be used for that purpose. Still, using notes conscientiously makes paragraphs look cluttered, but using Harvard referencing they would make them look even more cluttered. Moreover, even if we went over completely to Harvard referencing, I'd prefer using notes for references such as newspaper articles.-- Berig ( talk) 21:01, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
PS, another reason for objecting to making Harvard referencing the standard is the fact that I have written and expanded between 200 and 300 articles by using notes for references. The vast majority of these articles are theoretically covered by this Wikiproject. If we applied Harvard referencing, there would be a huge workload trying to make the articles consistent in style.-- Berig ( talk) 21:42, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
If it has not been mentioned yet, I think we should state our method of dating for the sake of clarity. I am pretty sure most here generally use the Common Era terms instead of Anno Domini. This is something that should be very consistent. – Holt T• C 01:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm familiar with WP:NAME. Especially the part which says:
Fair enough. But aren't we - by which I mean those of us interested enough in this topic to look up articles relating to it on Wikipedia, let alone edit them - by virtue of the very fact beyond the general audience? Can a person looking up a rune from the Elder Futhark or a pre-Christian Heathen deity really be considered general audience? In my eyes, they've already crossed that line. And, as far as this topic is concerned, we have crossed the line in as much as we treat a subject which is simply not "readily accessible to a general audience". Some specialist interest, and foreknowledge, can be assumed on the part of our reader. The key question is: how much?
What are our peers doing? I, for one, take Rudolf Simek's Lexikon der germanischen Mythology to be a great example of how to get naming conventions right. The book is directed at a general audience, though assuming a bit of advanced interest on the part of the reader, and yet remains interesting and useful to those who have advanced knowledge of the subject. The Reallexikon der germanischen Altertumskunde is another great example.
Sadly, we, the Wikipedia community, are far from attaining these standards. In terms of naming, I'm afraid articles like Týr would be laughably sophomoric if viewed by the likes of Simek or Hoops.
I'm not saying Simek and Hoops are the final authorities on the question of naming conventions (and, by extension, the split/merge issues that arise as a consequence). I'm sure there are others that are equally skilled, and I would be happy to hear what the other members of this project think. But I do think that, if we are going to get serious about increasing and improving our coverage of Ancient Germanic culture, we need to open our eyes to similar work already accomplished in the field and, to some degree at least, follow suit. — Aryaman (talk) 21:50, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, to stick with the previous example: Týr. If you compare this entry with a reference work like Simek's, the discrepancy becomes apparent. His entries:
These are four different entries in Simek, all with content specific to each, all with clear "links" (Simek uses the inline arrow →) to the other entries in the series. (This, in opposition to the practice of simple "redirecting", e.g. "Tuisco: → Tuisto") The reason is clear: anyone working with source texts or other literature is going to look up a specific form of the term and expect to find detailed information on that form. Simek does not attempt to write an entry on the figure Tīw/Tīg/*Tīwaz/Týr/*Ziu, but instead one on each form. To do otherwise is to make an assumption which, strictly speaking, is synthetic in nature. I see no good reason for us to press all these together in one article. Dablinks and See also were invented to deal with exactly this kind of thing. — Aryaman (talk) 15:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
At WikiProject Mythology, a request for Germanic heathen prayers to be listed at the prayer article has been made. I can think of two accounts off hand, the Anglo-Saxon Æcerbot (which I just quickly created) and Sigrdrífumál plus there's that Varoon uploaded and the beautiful image by Arthur Rackham (the one on the right). Can anyone else think of anything? :bloodofox: ( talk) 14:43, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
A solid approach as usual, Varoon. While a full treatment is ideal, we can also just give a basic overview of the subject matter for now and then fill it out. I think we can start by listing potential prayers here outside of the two obvious ones I've mentioned before. Here's a basic draft of what we've mentioned so far:
Accounts of prayers to the gods in Germanic paganism survived Christianization though only a single prayer has survived without the interjection of Christian references. These references include the Valkyrie Sigrdrífa's prayer to the gods and the earth in stanzas 2 and 3 of the poem Sigrdrífumál compiled in the Poetic Edda in the 13th century from earlier traditional sources. The 11th century manuscript for the Anglo-Saxon charm Æcerbot presents what is thought to be an originally pagan prayer for the fertility of the speaker's crops and land, though Christianization is apparent throughout the charm. One of the Sagas of Icelanders, the Víga-Glúms saga might contain a prayer to the god Freyr. The 8th century Wessobrunn Prayer has been proposed as a Christianized pagan prayer and compared to the pagan Merseburg Incantations, the latter recorded in the 9th or 10th century.
(Of course, without the references.) Do you think the "Thor Hallow These Runes" (as presented on various runestones) counts as well? :bloodofox: ( talk) 22:29, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I looked through volume III today and didn't find anything. However, I did find a section regarding prayer in volume IV, chapter III ("Worship") - is this the section you were referring to or is there more that you can recall? To summarize, Grimm states that one prays to the east for Odin and to the north for Ulf, that prayer is directed at the sun, and no sacrifices occur after sunset. :bloodofox: ( talk) 05:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
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Thanks. — Headbomb { ταλκ κοντριβς – WP Physics} 08:47, 15 March, 2009 (UTC)
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Apologies for the notice, but this is being posted to every WikiProject to avoid accusations of systemic bias. Hiding T 13:22, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
I have done a GA Reassessment of Merseburg Incantations as part of the GA Sweeps project. I have found the article to be fine except for the lack of references in a couple of sections. I have put citation needed templates where I feel at least one in-line citation would be needed. My review is here. I have put the article on hold for a week pending work on the references. I am notifying the interested projects of this. Please contact me on my talk page if you have any questions. H1nkles ( talk) 15:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject Ancient Germanic studies/Assessment states that the project has no A-Class or FA-Class and does not use the standard quality scale, but the project banner has always supported these classes, and despite what that page says, the project does indeed (to all intents and purposes) use the same scale as at WP:ASSESS. This is rather confusing. PC78 ( talk) 19:30, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Odin. Thor. Freyja. Frigg. These are some of our most-viewed and influential articles, yet they are some of the worst articles that fall under this Wikiproject. They are poorly referenced, sometimes present theory as fact, and are just all around shoddy. Yet why haven't they been rewritten and GA-ified yet? The reason is evident: they require rewrites, very big rewrites, and this requires time and effort, lots of time and effort.
Of all of these articles our article for Odin is probably the most difficult to approach. Currently, we actually have three Odin articles: Odin, Wōden, and Wōdanaz. This makes for not one, but three rewrites and then there's the question of whether or not this division is appropriate. Maybe an overview page at Odin would be most appropriate, with summaries and {{main|...}} tags for each of the three sections. I propose that we section Odin out into Odin in Norse mythology, Odin in continental and Anglo-Saxon sources, and *Wodanaz. Any suggestions?
Frigg and Freyja have an additional problem: theories surrounding their etymology. This means they require a third page, ideally titled Freyja and Frigg origin hypothesis, that would handle the theories surrounding either mutual or separate origins of the deities. Right now we have an utterly terrible article at Frijjō that needs to go.
The Thor article is more straightforward and perhaps I should start here. There's just the sheer amount of information to bring into the article, but that can certainly be reigned in.
Getting these articles right should be a priority. I intend to rewrite each of these articles and bring them up to GA status Doing so will be easier with help from other members of this project. Any ideas or comments? :bloodofox: ( talk) 04:11, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
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A very interesting claim is made here. After being defeated by a Roman army "The captured women committed mass suicide, which passed into Roman legends of Germanic heroism: by the conditions of the surrender three hundred of their married women were to be handed over to the Romans. When the Teuton matrons heard of this stipulation, they first begged the consul that they might be set apart to minister in the temples of Ceres and Venus; then, when they failed to obtain their request and were removed by the lictors, they slew their children and next morning were all found dead in each other's arms having strangled themselves in the night.". Can anyone verify this? Should this be added to the Teutons page? - Schrandit ( talk) 19:04, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
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Your attention is drawn to Talk:History_of_Vojvodina#Request_For_Comment_re:_WikiProject_Banners_on_this_page. Regards, Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 02:11, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Hi folks, the move request over at Talk:Teutons needs some love. Currently there doesn't seem to be consensus. Chipping in is probably appreciated. Martijn Hoekstra ( talk) 18:48, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
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Harej ( talk) 16:56, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
Just to let folks interested in Germanic society know that Heathenry (new religious movement) is currently up for FAC. It would be great if some of those reading this could come, take a look, and offer their thoughts at the FAC page. Midnightblueowl ( talk) 19:46, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
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There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Walhaz#Requested move 1 August 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. SilverLocust 💬 14:17, 1 August 2023 (UTC)