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Continuing with Mediation

Now that every user has placed a statement on this page, I think we can now move on with mediation. Due to the large number of participants in this discussion, I think that it would be best for each side to select a spokesperson. We will need one person who supports the usage of the Ulster Banner, and one person who opposes it. If each side could decide on a spokesperson, it would be appreciated, and we will continue from there. Thanks. -- דניאל - Danth eman531 23:56, 20 September 2007 (UTC) reply

How do you propose each side of this debate select one editor to represent them.-- padraig 00:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC) reply
I'm happy to represent those in favour of using flag images Astrotrain 23:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC) reply
I'am happy to represent those against the misuse of the Ulster Banner, if nobody else wants to do so.-- Padraig 19:57, 24 September 2007 (UTC) reply
My main desire was to bring this back to a civilised discussion, as it now shows signs of becoming, and I'm not particularly behind either camp. That said, between them, Astrotrain and Padraig do represent the vast majority of my views, and I'm happy to support a consensus arrived between the two of them (or between two other spokespeople for the two camps). — ras52 23:26, 24 September 2007 (UTC) reply
I don't like the idea of 'camps' particularly either. But I'm more than happy for Astrotrain to speak on my behalf, as long as if I disagree with something I can that that clear? Biofoundationsoflanguage 15:39, 25 September 2007 (UTC) reply
That would be ok. Just remember that the point of having spokespeople is so that everybody isn't trying to compromise at the same time. You can clear things up if you disagree with them, but I will be able to reference your opinion from the statement that you left above. I will also be sure to alert all involved parties before a final decision is made. -- דניאל - Danth eman531 22:24, 25 September 2007 (UTC) reply
OK- now we can move forward. I suggest looking at the use of the flag in flag articles first (such as List of British flags, List of Northern Irish flags, Template:UKFlags etc. Astrotrain 15:56, 1 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I agree that it is now the time to move forward with this mediation. Unfortunately, I will not be available again until Sunday or Monday. I think we should begin then. I have moved all of the parties' statements to this page's archive. Everything can be accessed there. I hope that this can be resolved to everybody's satisfaction, and I encourage the people who are not named spokespeople to keep this page watchlisted and to follow this discussion as it progresses. -- דניאל - Danth eman531 00:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Beginning

Ok everyone, I'm back. Let me make sure that I have an accurate understanding of the dispute, then we can proceed to discuss a compromise. From what I gather, this is the debate:

  1. Opposers of using the Ulster Banner argue that it is not the official flag of NI. They say that the Union Flag is the only official flag that represents Northern Ireland. They also say that use of the Ulster Banner is offensive to some people. They're position is that the Union Flag, or some other alternative should be used, but not the Ulster Banner.
  2. Supporters of using the Ulster Banner argue that while it is not the official flag of Northern Ireland, it is the only flag that specifically represents NI. They say that this flag is used frequently, especially in sporting events and other events where NI is represented. They say that the Union Flag is not adequate to represent NI. They're position is that the Ulster Banner should be used in situations where a flag icon is needed to represent NI.

Please indicate whether I have this right. Don't be afraid to correct anything that I said above. Thanks. -- דניאל - Danth eman531 20:42, 11 October 2007 (UTC) reply

The Ulster banner is not offensive to some people, its offensive to the entire nationalist community of Northern Ireland, as it is seen as symbol of Unionist misrule by the former government that it represented and of Loyalist sectarianism. The use of the banner in its proper context such as articles on the Commonwealth games or other sports that may use the symbol is fine, or in articles dealing with the period of the history of Northern Ireland between 1922-1972 is fine. What we object to is its use on articles or templates dealing with Northern Ireland today, which some editors are intent on doing so.-- Padraig 21:20, 11 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I think that is a fairly accurate description of the dispute Dan. I would also add that supporters suggest the Flag is the defacto flag of Northern Ireland, ie the commonly recognised Flag of Northern Ireland both in the UK and internationally. Astrotrain 21:28, 11 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Recognised by whom in the UK the British Government don't recognise it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Padraig ( talk • contribs) 21:35, 11 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Exactly Padraigh not recognised by the NI assembly either so who exactly are you talking about here. BigDunc 21:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC) reply
The UK government don't use the flag, I have not seen any sources about regarding the Northern Ireland Assembly's view on the Northern Ireland flag (there has been much debate on the use of the Union Flag however). It should be noted that Wikipedia is not bound to follow the UK government but we can should of course report their position where necessary. Astrotrain 21:44, 11 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Astrotrain the Northern Ireland assembly debated the flag issue prior to the bringing in of the Northern Ireland flag Act 2000, all the Unionist parties argued that the offical and only flag of Northern Ireland was the Union Flag, not one of the MLAs or parties even mentioned the Ulster Banner. And your correct wikipedia is not bound by the UK Government, but WP has its own policies on what can be included in articles, such as WP:POV, WP:OR and WP:V, the Ulster Banner fails on all these points.-- Padraig 21:52, 11 October 2007 (UTC) reply

They were discussing the use of the Union Flag in Northern Ireland given the refusal of Sinn Fein ministers to fly the flag from their ministires to mark the Queen's birthday etc. There is no Northern Ireland flag Act 2000- you may mean The Flags (Northern Ireland) Order 2000 where the Queen granted powers by an Order in Council to allow the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to "make regulations regulating the flying of flags at government buildings". The definition of a government building is "a building wholly or mainly occupied by members of the Northern Ireland Civil Service". The 7 buildings in question are:

  1. Adelaide House, Adelaide Street, Belfast.
  2. Castle Buildings, Stormont Estate, Belfast
  3. Churchill House, Victoria Square, Belfast.
  4. Clarence Court, 10-18 Adelaide Street, Belfast.
  5. Dundonald House, Upper Newtownards Road, Belfast.
  6. Netherleigh House, Massey Avenue, Belfast.
  7. Rathgael House, Balloo Road, Bangor, County Down

With the exception of Police stations (which are only allowed to fly their own police standard or the Royal Standard, there are no other restrictions on flags in Northern Ireland. Astrotrain 22:11, 11 October 2007 (UTC) reply

The Act deals with those flags that can officially flown from Government Buildings, and the Ulster banner cannot be flown from these, so you want WP to use a banner to represent Northern Ireland as a state that the Northern Ireland Executive and British Government won't allow to be flown from their Government buildings.-- Padraig 22:17, 11 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Here is a link to a pdf of the Act Flag Regulations 2000 and they didn't just bebate the Union Flag in the Assembly they debated all flags put forward by the different parties, and which the Ulster Banner wasn't included.-- Padraig 22:21, 11 October 2007 (UTC) reply
7 buildings cannot fly the flag- the Order does not apply to the other buildings in Northern Ireland, it does not apply to websites which are hosted in the State of Florida in the United States. It should also be noted that the Order brings Northern Ireland into line with the rest of the UK government, which flies the Union Flag on Royal Birthdays and Anniversaries. The refusal of Sinn Fein to fly the Union Flag from their ministires led to the Order being passed. The UK government does not fly the Flags of England, Scotland and Wales for example. Astrotrain 22:23, 11 October 2007 (UTC) reply
The British government dosen't regulate the use of the flags of England, Scotland and Wales, but they recognise they exist and are used, that is not the case with Northern Ireland.
This is what the British Government says about the Ulster Banner:
Lord Greaves asked Her Majesty's Government:
What legislation covers the definition of the form, shape and design, and any rules about the permitted use, of (a) the union flag; (b) the English flag (cross of St George); (c) the Scottish flag(St Andrew's saltire) (d) the Scottish royal lion flag (e) the Welsh flag (dragon); (f) the flag of Northern Ireland. [HL1099]
18 Jan 2007 : Column WA181
Lord Davies of Oldham: (a & b) There is no legislation that governs the form, shape or size of the union flag or the English flag (St George's cross). There are no rules about the permitted use of the union flag or English flag (cross of St George) on non-government buildings, provided the flag is flown on a single vertical flagstaff and neither the flag nor the flagstaff display any advertisement additional to the design of the flag as explained under the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) Regulations 1992. Government departments are restricted to flying flags on 18 fixed days a year in compliance with rules issued by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. Consideration should also be given to flag protocol, which considers it improper to fly the union flag upside down and requires that the flag should not be defaced by text or symbols and should be treated with respect.
(c & d) There is also no legislation that governs the form, shape or size of the Royal Arms of Scotland (here referred to as The Scottish royal lion flag) or the St Andrew's cross, but the design is firmly specified in the Public Register of All Arms and Bearings in Scotland. The Royal Arms of Scotland can only be used by the Sovereign or Her Great Lieutenants when acting in their official capacity. The Scottish flag(St Andrew's cross) may be flown by Scots and to represent Scotland on all occasions; however, under The Act of Lyon King of Arms Act 1672, cap. 47 individuals may not deface the flag by placing a symbol on top of the flag or use it in such a way that suggests it is his/her personal property.
(e) There is no specific legislation about the Welsh flag design or rules about permitted use.
(f) The union flag is the only official flag that represents Northern Ireland. The Flags (NI) Order 2000 empowered the Secretary of State to make the Flags Regulations (NI) 2000, which governs when and where the union flag can be flown from government buildings in Northern Ireland on specified days. The legislation does not define the form, shape or design of the union flag. Flag flying from non-governmental buildings is unregulated.
For all flags, consideration should also be given to flag protocol, which requires flags to be treated with respect, not to be defaced by text or symbols or flown upside down. [1]
The Minister didn't even mention the Ulster Banner in relation to Northern Ireland, and made it clear the Union Flags is the only flag to represent Northern Ireland. -- Padraig 22:32, 11 October 2007 (UTC) reply
There is no legislation prohibiting local English governments displaying St George's Flag because (i) there is no (recent) history of local government (as opposed to other local organisations) in England wanting to display this flag instead of the Union Flag; (ii) the vast, vast majority of the inhabitants of England have no problem with St George's flag. I'm less certain of the situation in Scotland or Wales but I'm sure that point (ii) at least is true for their national flags , even if (i) isn't. N.I. is different because there demonstrably is part of the population of N.I. that objects to the Ulster Banner and what, to them, it represents. (There's probably a far larger number in the Republic of Ireland.) It's because of this, N.I. has explicit legislation unlike England, Wales and Scotland. As I've repeatedly said, the fact that the Ulster Banner is not "official" is not per se of relevance; what is relevant is that some of N.I. find the flag offensive and sectarian. One big question is, within N.I. (that is, excluding the Republic and excluding Great Britain) is this a large part of the population? If not, is it even a significant part of the population? And I've seen absolutely no attempt (by either side) of answering this question. — ras52 00:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC) reply
The nationalist vote - Sinn Féin and the SDLP - in the 2007 Assembly Election was 41.4% of the vote, so I would say that would amount to a significant part of the population.-- Padraig 00:52, 12 October 2007 (UTC) reply
It doesn't matter if anyone finds it offensive as Wikipedia is not censored. Astrotrain 08:16, 12 October 2007 (UTC) reply
No, but it does matter that it is not the flag of Northern Ireland, as for Wikipedia not being censored, nobody is trying to censor anything here, just ensure that the information is factual and relevent to today, not use a banner that has been defunct for thirty-four years and no relevence to modern day Northern Ireland.-- Padraig 11:10, 12 October 2007 (UTC) reply
The "Wikipedia isn't censored" argument is ridiculous. If a small cabal of neo-Nazi skinheads wanted to use the Swastika Flag of Nazi Germany to represent present day Germany, would you think it's OK for them to say that people are censoring them by not allowing them to use it? Fennessy 18:20, 12 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Excellent point Fennessy just muddying the waters using the censorship card. BigDunc 18:26, 12 October 2007 (UTC) reply
The Nazi flag is not used to represent Germany today, whereas the Northern Ireland flag continues to be used today, just not by the central government. And Wikipedia is not censored is an official policy. Astrotrain 18:28, 12 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Yeah and Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, Wikipedia is not a soapbox, Wikipedia is not a democracy and Wikipedia is not a battleground. You should read all of the policies and not just selectively choose the ones you wish to abide by. Also the Ulster banner is not recognised by any government on the face of the planet. FIFA and the commonwealth games commision don't run countries. Fennessy 20:16, 12 October 2007 (UTC) reply
And the UB is not used to represent NI. Unless you are talking about a football team BigDunc 18:38, 12 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I think we should try and move away from these type of back and forth attacks and look and real issues and examples. I would also like Dan to state on whether it is supposed to be just me and Padraig as spokesman and editing here, and whether others should be posting here or directing their concerns to Padraig or I's talkpages. Astrotrain 20:26, 12 October 2007 (UTC) reply
How is stating facts such as Wikipedia's policies "attacking" anyone? If you percieved me comparing the use of the Ulster banner to the Swastika flag of Nazi Germany as "attacking" anyone, then you are very much mistaken. The comparison is prefectly vaild as in one of the few times I have seen people using it in real life, they were football(soccer) holigans holding the Ulster banner and throwing hail hilter salutes. Fennessy 20:45, 12 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I don't mean attack in the WP:NPA sense. I would just like to move onto examples in Wikipedia and come to a consensus on usage Astrotrain 20:55, 12 October 2007 (UTC) reply

I suggest that everybody take a breath, and pause for a moment. This mediation cannot go anywhere if everybody continues to present the same arguments that have been given for the entire time this dispute has been going on. I understand your positions, you do not need to continue to state them. We set spokespeople for this mediation for a reason. The others are not forbidden from posting here, but they really should try to refrain from doing so. It makes it much more difficult to mediate a dispute if everybody keeps jumping in. In order to proceed, I would like each spokesperson to present a possible compromise solution. Please do not blow this off. Once we have a starting place, this will become much easier. Thanks. -- דניאל - Danth eman531 22:34, 12 October 2007 (UTC) reply

By the way, what is the result of this "mediation" in terms of binding decisions on the article and others not involved in it? A straw poll on the same issue has also sprung up here [2]. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 22:40, 12 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Actually, mediation does not have binding decisions. The goal of mediation is to reach a compromise. Only the Arbitration Committee can issue binding decisions. -- דניאל - Danth eman531 01:20, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Compromise solution- List of British flags

I propose a compromise solution on List of British flags- showing the Union Flag as the official flag in Northern Ireland and the Ulster Banner as the unofficial flag of Northern Ireland. Example would be:

Flag Date Use Description Status

Unofficial

Official		 1953 The Ulster Banner is the unofficial flag of Northern Ireland and is used by Unionists and by international sporting organisations, (eg FIFA [1], UEFA [2], and the Commonwealth Games [3]). Government buildings do not use the flag, instead using the Union Flag as the official flag. A red cross on a white field with a red hand, on a six pointed white star, crowned (representing the six counties in Northern Ireland). Unofficial

This allows both images to be shown with appropiate descriptions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Astrotrain ( talk • contribs) 14:42, 13 October 2007 (UTC) reply


That is not a compromise, that is you being allowed to promote your POV, the article as it stands is correct :

Northern Ireland

Flag Date Use Description Status
Northern Ireland does not currently have a de jure National flag [4] other than the Union Flag - the former Government of Northern Ireland banner, the Ulster Banner, is still in use by international sporting organisations, (eg FIFA [5], UEFA [6], and the Commonwealth Games [7]) and can be seen in the Historical flags section. A red cross on a white field with a red hand, on a six pointed white star, crowned (representing the six counties in Northern Ireland). The Ulster Banner ceased to officially exist with the passing of the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973 which dissolved the Parliament of Northern Ireland, Not recognised by the British government or the Northern Ireland Assembly
which provides a link to the Ulster banner in the historical flags section of the article, the Union Flag is the only flag of Northern Ireland today.-- Padraig 15:13, 13 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Can you state which part you think is POV? The problem with your version is that it talks about a flag without showing the flag in question. This is an article about flags, no other section do we talk about a flag that is not shown, except in cases where no image is avaliable on Wikipedia. Astrotrain 15:39, 13 October 2007 (UTC) reply
What is POV, well to start with the Ulster Banner was never the flag of Northern Ireland even during the period 1953-72, it was solely used as a banner to represent the former government as a Governmental Banner not the state, you are now trying to protray as a former flag of that state, also it is not an un-official flag as it was never official to start with outside of its role as a government banner. The arguement you make of talking about the flag but not showing it, that is false the first section shows the official flag the Union Flag, it explains the status of the former governmental banner and provides a link to the Historical flag section, Which shows the flag image and details of its design and former useage.
Flag Date Use Description
1953 - 1972 The Ulster Banner - Former Government of Northern Ireland between (1953-1972) and still used to represent Northern Ireland in sporting events in which Northern Ireland competes and by many as a de facto banner A red cross on a white field defaced with a red hand, crowned on a six pointed white star (representing the six counties in Northern Ireland).

-- Padraig 16:46, 13 October 2007 (UTC) reply

The flag is not historic however, as it continues to be used to represent Northern Ireland as the examples so. It is also listed as the Flag of Northern Ireland by Britannica, Flags of the World etc. Given the flag is in use today in an unofficial manner, why do you not think it should be shown? Astrotrain 16:49, 13 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Once possible compromise would be to state "it is an unofficial flag" rather than "the"? Astrotrain 16:50, 13 October 2007 (UTC) reply
As usual you ignore fact, the banner was a government banner the government it represented was abolished under the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973, the current government of Northern Ireland refuses to even recognise it existance, therefore to protray the banner along with the other British National flags is incorrect and POV pushing. The banner is historical along with the government that used it. Its continued use by sports bodies dosen't give it any status, most Unionists in Northern Ireland today see the banner as associated with Loyalist parliamilitary extremist groups, and therefore use the Union Flag, none of the Unionist political parties use it or brought its use up in the Assembly debates on the use of flags prior to the legistation on flags being implemented in 2000, or its amendment in 2002.-- Padraig 17:14, 13 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Continued use by sporting bodies (ie in the present day) surely indicates that is not historical. The other flags in the historical section are no longer used at all. In any case it is not my POV to list the flag there- see for example World Flags Database which lists the flag alongside the other UK subdivision flags. Astrotrain 08:14, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Astrotrain why do you keep bringing up the World Flags Database, that is not an Authority it is a commercial site that sells flags. As for the use of the banner by some sports fans so what, when did sport fans decide what was the flag of a country, also on the question of sport and the fans of the Northern Ireland Football team, sport in Northern Ireland is deeply divided, with Unionists supporting the Northern Ireland team and Nationalists support the Republic of Ireland National team.-- Padraig 08:35, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
World Flag Database is a database produced by Graham Bartram, Chief Vexillologist of the Flag Institute. It is an authoritive source to quote for flags in a flag article. Astrotrain 08:40, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Its a commercial site, it also provides a link to his book 'British Flags & Emblems' [3] where he shows the flags of England, Scotland and Wales with details on them, for Northern Ireland it states Northern Ireland is currently without a National flag, pending a new design to mark the resumpation of self-rule. So according to your claimed authoritive source, the Ulster Banner is not not included as a British National flag, and no National flag exists for Northern Ireland.-- Padraig 09:12, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
The subdivision page [4] clearly shows the Northern Ireland flag, noting its unofficial status and use by Unionists and sport. We have already established the lack of central government use, and it may well be likely that the Nothern Ireland Assembly design a new national flag. However, since they have not, the current unofficial flag is still used in international situations. Displaying that image with a note on status does not impact on POV. Astrotrain 09:23, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Incorrect, displaying that image in a list of National Flags gives the impression that it is the Flag of Northern Ireland, which it isn't, so it is WP:OR and not allowed. Your pushing a political pro-Unionist POV by doing so, Wikipedia is an encyclopeadia that should only show WP:V information, not the political view of editors.-- Padraig 09:36, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Displaying images is not WP:OR as the page clearly explains and sources have been provided. The fact is that is it is a flag and is used today. I am not promoting any POV. I am trying to come up with compromises and gain consensus, I suggest you learn to compromise to gain a consesus solution to solve the argument. Astrotrain 12:11, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Displaying a image as the Northern Ireland flag when it is clearly not, in articles and templates dealing with Northern Ireland today is clearly against WP:OR, WP:V and WP:POV. There is no problem with using the image on articles dealing with Northern Ireland during the period 1921-1972 as I have done here and here, or in articles relating to sport in which Northern Ireland play as a national team such as the Commonwealth Games or International Football. As for compromise, your idea of compromise is that we ignore fact and allow you to use the image where it not appropiate.-- Padraig 12:32, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Padraig, there is nothing in WP:OR, WP:V and WP:POV that says the flag must have official basis in law. You're just repeating yourself endlessly now. The overwhelming majority of people at the straw poll are voting for the use of the flag, I think it's time for you to pipe down. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 13:09, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
It dosen't matter what yous vote for on your straw poll, any inclusion of the Ulster Banner in a table representing Northern Ireland can be be removed, none of yous have provide any sources to support it inclusion, whereas there is loads of sources to support it removal in accordance to WP policy. WP isn't a political soapbox.-- Padraig 13:20, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Britannica isn't a good enough source for 'yous'? [5] [6] The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 15:26, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Encyclopdeia Britannica says: According to British tradition, a coat of arms or flag is granted to the government of a territory, not to the people residing there. Therefore, when the government of Northern Ireland was disbanded in March 1972, its arms and flag officially disappeared; however, the flag continues to be used by groups (such as sports teams) representing the territory in an unofficial manner. so trying to use the flag to represent Northern Ireland today is WP:OR, WP:POV and fails WP:V.-- Padraig 17:56, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Placing an image with a description and sources is not POV. We need a compromise solution to get consensus and stop the edit wars. As Pat points out, there are many reputable sources. Try doing a google images search on Flag of Northern Ireland to find sources. Astrotrain 17:31, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Placing a false image is POV and OR, most editors and readers will just see the image an either ignore or not read the discription, what are these reputable sources that say the flag is used to represent Northern Ireland today outside of sport, you haven't provided any.-- Padraig 17:56, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I'll ask Dan to give a view on the POV and OR issue you raise. I fail to see how using an image is OR and giving a description of use to sources is POV. Astrotrain 18:09, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
The question is about whether this flag should appear next to the word Northern Ireland on the Wikipedia article. Seeing as the flag appears next to the word Northern Ireland on Britannica, it is quite clearly verifiably OK to do so and not POV. It is you (Padraig) who are engaged in WP:OR, drawing your own conclusions from the law. I've noticed you fanatically removing this flag for several months now - it seems to me you are the one here enforcing your WP:POV. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 18:22, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Red Hat, I come from Northern Ireland and the flag is not the flag of my Country, and never was, so I do object to its use in Wikipedia as representing Northern Ireland today, I have no problem with its use in sports articles when Northern Ireland play as a team and the team used the symbol, or in articles dealing with the history or politics of Northern Ireland between 1922-1972 as it was a banner (1953-72) of the devolved government of that period, and I have used it on wikipedia in those circumstances myself. But to use it on articles as the flag of Northern Ireland today is POV and incorrect, this is supposed to be a factual encyclopeadia therefore it shouldn't present false information to appease some editors using the issue as a political soapbox.-- Padraig 18:42, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
"It's not the flag of my country so WP can't use it because I object to it"? What's that if it's not POV, in the face of Britannica's use of it, despite its unofficial status? The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 19:03, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
No that is stating the fact of the issue, it is not the flag of Northern Ireland, it is not even recognised by the British Government or the Northern Ireland Assembly. But some editors think we should ignore that.-- Padraig 19:10, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
No they don't, they have suggested the very reasonable compromise of a footnote explaining the situation. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 19:24, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply

We are not discussing the United Kingdom article here, if thats the footnote your refering to, that article already has a footnote: There is no official flag of Northern Ireland following the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973. However, the Ulster Banner is often used for sporting events. See Northern Ireland flags issue What we discussion is Astrotrain and others attempt to add the Ulster banner to templates such as these as a National Flag:

Along with other templates.-- Padraig 19:51, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Surley if we can agree on the flags, UK article- it will be easier to reach consensus on the others? Astrotrain 20:26, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Compromise suggestion

That the Ulster Banner is use only in these contexts:

  • a) For historical and political topics and templates on Northern Ireland of the period 1921-1972 (government use)
  • b) For N.I. sport-related topics and templates (the only context in which this flag remains in semi-official use)
  • c) For Unionist/ Loyalist (never Republican/ Nationalist) topics and templates from 1921 onward (unofficial use)

Outside of these uses the Ulster Banner is WP:OR and WP:POV.-- Padraig 20:50, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply


As other sources use it as a flag to represent Northern Ireland- eg World Flags Database, Britannica etc therefore also suggest
  • d) As an unofficial flag of Northern Ireland, used to represent Northern Ireland seperate from the UK (as in List of British flags, UK, Template:UKFlags)- with a note to state unofficial status. Astrotrain 21:30, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Not agreeable to that, that would mean it could be used anywhere in any context.-- Padraig 21:37, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
The current solution on List of British flags is fine.-- Padraig 21:38, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Well no, because it talks about a flag that is not shown. We have a free use image to display, and plenty of evidence the flag is used to represent Northern Ireland today. There is no reason why an image cannot be shown and a neutral description with sources given. Astrotrain 21:44, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
It shows the official flag the Union Flag and provides a link to the Historical Flags section of the article where the Ulster Banner image is shown.-- Padraig 23:03, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Outside of sport where is this evidence of its use to represent Northern Ireland, you keep saying it exists but fail to produce any evidence of it, and don't say on websites such as flags.net as they are commercial sites that sell flags.-- Padraig 21:49, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Plus many others- try doing a google images search for Northern Ireland flag —Preceding unsigned comment added by Astrotrain ( talk • contribs) 21:52, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply


Astrotrains sources:

  • Amazon.com [25] - Commercial site selling flags.
  • Brady Corporation Ltd [26] - Commercial site selling flags.
  • British Embassy, Copenhagen ( [27]) - shows the Ulster banner.
  • British Embassy, Tehran ( [28]) - Shows the Union Flag with footnote: As of 1973 Union Jack is the official flag of Northern Ireland.
  • Chris de Burgh (!)- [29] - A Fan site for a singer!.
  • Commonwealth Games Federation [30] - Sport use.
  • Commonwealth Fencing Federation [31] - Sport use.
  • Encyclopædia Britannica [32] This site also makes it clear it is an Un-official flag, not used today except by Unionist and some sport use.
  • Encyclopedia Heraldica [33] - You serious about this this site looks like it put together by a 6 year old.
  • Fairfax County, Virginia ( [34]) - Site of what looks like a Ulster-Scott community in America.
  • Flag Focus "A vexillarium of flags from around the world " [35] - Mirror site of the commercial site below.
  • Flags.net (webiste of Graham Bartram (Chief Vexillologist of the Flag Institute)) [36] - Commercial site that sells flags.
  • GlobalGenealogy.com Inc [37] - Commercial site selling flags.
  • Flags Unlimited Inc [38] - Commercial site selling flags.
  • FIFA [39] - Sport use.
  • Portland International Church of Christ- [40] - now your taking the piss.
  • Irishaustralia [41] - Looks like someones homepage states Northern Ireland Flag - No longer officially used.
  • UEFA [42] - Sport use.

Astrotrain, do you understand what a reliable source is, commercial sites are not reliable sources, as for the sport ones, no one is arguing that it isn't use in some sports. If thats the best you can do this discussion is pointless.-- Padraig 22:42, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply

The point of posting these links was to show that they use the Flag of Northern Ireland, most of which are using a footnote as we are suggesting. The point is not to suggest all these websites are used as sources (although obviously ones like Britannica, World Flag Database, FIFA etc can be) but rather point out the widespread usage of the Flag of Northern Ireland. Whats so wrong with using the approach of Britannica, the British Embassies abroad etc etc and showing a flag image with a description of use? Astrotrain 22:50, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
The world Flag Database is a commercial site, and only one of the embassies sites shows the Ulster Banner the other one Displays the Union Flag. As for displaying the flag, we already do on the Northern Ireland article with a footnote saying it is not used officially with links the the Northern Ireland flags issue and Flag of Northern Ireland.-- Padraig 22:58, 14 October 2007 (UTC) reply
There is now consensus to use the Flag of Northern Ireland with a footnote for the status, linked to sources. We should now move on to discuss other uses. Astrotrain 14:31, 15 October 2007 (UTC) reply
There is no consensus, I assume your refering to the strawpoll on the United Kingdom article, it was made clear when that started that this issue was subject to mediation both here and on the arbcom, so the strawpoll is void as many editors didn't vote whilst awaiting the result of these. And you can't achieve consensus in breach of WP policies or WP:V and WP:OR.-- Padraig 14:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC) reply
That plus the User that took the liberty of closing the poll and declaring victory for the Ulster Banner is a Rangers fan intrested in the life of "king billy". How objective... you can't just rail-road your opinions like that, what Astrotrain is attempting to do is extremely wrong. Fennessy 17:30, 15 October 2007 (UTC) reply

It would now seem this issue can be be resolved by using Wikipedia:Manual of Style (flags) particialy these sections:

-- Padraig 19:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Is it possible to petition the Northern Irish government to establish an official flag? Just lightening the mood, folks. GoodDay 21:22, 15 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Padraig, having looked at your suggested compromise, could you give us examples of unionist/loyalist and nationalist articles and templates? I'm a little concerned about dividing content according to camps. -- Jza84 · ( talk) 21:55, 15 October 2007 (UTC) reply
You mean templates dealing with Loyalism Template:IrishL which is uses the Ulster Banner, Template:IrishU used on unionist articles, there is the republican Template:IrishR equivalent, these are not dividing content in camps they are used to link similar articles. Their are also templates dealing with politics in Northern Ireland during the period 1922-72 such as this Template:Politics of Northern Ireland 1921-72 and this Template:Parliament of Northern Ireland which both use the Ulster Banner.-- Padraig 22:49, 15 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Thanks for the clarification. I personally think your point is a valid one personally agree these are suitable templates for which the UB could/would/should be included. I think the next question is, are there any templates/topics where the Ulster Banner is included, and you believe it is unhelpful to readers? It is paramount to consider this dispute in these terms. -- Jza84 · ( talk) 23:18, 15 October 2007 (UTC) reply

The only one I'am currently aware of is the one on the Symbols table on the United Kingdom article, as for templates none that I'am aware of, but the major problem was editors such as Astrotrain trying to add it to templates dealing with Northern Ireland today such as Template:Lists of Marilyns, Template:Airports of Ireland, Template:Northern Ireland cities, Template:Counties and cities of Northern Ireland and loads of others which have cause edit wars, the flag is not appropiate on these.-- Padraig 23:34, 15 October 2007 (UTC) reply

OK, that's helpful in terms of context. A few more questions... Do the Irish (by which I mean The Republic) equivilants of these templates use the tricolor? Would you not consider the United Kingdom to be a quintessentially "Unionist/Loyalist" topic? -- Jza84 · ( talk) 23:49, 15 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Here is a link to Category:Irish navigational boxes I just picked a few at random but the majority don't use any flags. Would I consider the United Kingdom to be a quintessentially "Unionist/Loyalist" topic, no I come from Northern Ireland and I'am old enough to remember the north before the start of the troubles. I have also added information to many of the articles on former Unionist members of the Northern Ireland House of Commons, and the elections and governments of that period, I also created the Template:Politics of Northern Ireland 1921-72 for use in articles dealing with that period with the Ulster Banner included. Just as I have added info to articles on the Tower of London, Great Fire of London and Chinatown in London and others. I think a major problem with Northern ireland articles is that some editors think that WP should only give a pro-British viewpoint rather then just presenting facts and let readers form their opinion on articles.-- Padraig 00:10, 16 October 2007 (UTC) reply
It is most commendable that you have been furthering articles relating to English landmarks and history, and can't comment about British/Irish POVs in prose. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth; hard fact is rare beyond pure-maths, and truth is always a more qualitative science than quantitative. WP:POV (an essay not a policy) also tells us we should be describing points of view, not writing from our own perspective. My point? The two camps are pretty much ideologically blind to each others point of view, when really, they need only acknowledge it and describe it using source material and context.
Breifly to the United Kingdom article, to me the sect that is culturally bound to Unionism in Ireland (and probably those against it) would consider the topic of the UK to be one which is a key "Unionist" topic. If you really do disagree (your reasons why were not entirely clear) then your proposal, as much as I admire it, is going to be flawed along the lines of what constitutes a unionist topic/template and what doesn't.
Also, I think what too has been overlooked (perhaps un-discussed due to lack of vocab on vexillology and visual narratives) is that when I see my brain says McDonalds, when I see my brain says Nike. I may not like what they stand for, but semiotically, they do have a visually constructed narrative that represents something. The same is true for me (and when you consider it, probably you) when I see Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland, I don't read colours and shapes, I read the word, the narrative. Granted it doesn't make it official, but the Ulster Banner has stood and for better or worse does stand for NI (which may or may not make it suitable for inclusion - a point to work out).
I'm also concerned about the use and unchecked use of the words "official", "unofficial" and "legal" in context to the debate. I'd be interested to know if this flag is recognised in copyright law (I have no idea) and by the Flag Institute, The Office of the Chief Herald of Ireland and College of Arms. I personally think the proposal is okay (though Astrotrain is the spokesuser for the pro-use camp), but also think there are clearly points to work out - particularly where camps clash, like on Northern Ireland (the article!). -- Jza84 · ( talk) 01:28, 16 October 2007 (UTC) reply

I see you mention the College of Arms, they actualy advised that the former Northern Ireland Goverment Coat of Arms should not be used after the dissolving of the Parliament of Northern Ireland under the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973, the Ulster Banner was divised from this coat of Arms in 1953. On the Issue of symbols in articles such as Northern Ireland to me the image conveys a message that it is the flag of Northern Ireland which it is not and in the case of the table on the United Kingdom article even if used with the footnote, most readers wouldn't see or read the footnote with the image on the table.

On the issue of the United Kingdom article or articles on Northern Ireland itself, I don't see them as a Unionist topic at all, although others may do, but I don't, I come from a mixed family of both Protestant and Catholic, very rare in Northern Ireland. Some of my family would be pro-British and others pro-Republican so I have a good understanding of both POVs in Northern society. But I disagree with editors trying to push solely one view or the other on articles dealing with Northern Ireland. I believe strongly that WP should present both views in a neutral fashion, supported by reliable sources.

The Northern Ireland article is currently ok, the infobox dosen't display any flag and provides a link to the Northern Ireland flag issue which explains in detail the issue, also the Ulster Banner and former Coat of Arms images are shown in the main article body, so they haven't been censored as some editors accuse us of trying to do, in fact it was me that added them to the article, and the Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(flags) will deal with any future disputes if they arise.-- Padraig 02:21, 16 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Padraig, it is clear that you are taking your stance based on your own personal opinions from living in Northern Ireland, and your clear nationalist/republican views. There is no basis in Wikipedia to remove the image from articles which are taking about flags, symbols etc, and the compromise solution proposed would see the images and discussion linked to sources. Consensus has been gained on Talk:United Kingdom to add the flag to that article, so it should also be re-added to the correct section on List of British flags, Template:UKFlags etc. Then we can discuss the navigational templates and Northern Ireland article. Astrotrain 11:49, 16 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Astrotrain there is no consensus on United Kingdom and strawpolls are not binding, WP:MOSFLAG now deals with the issue, also I see you tookit upon yourself to edit List of British Flags, don't start edit warring on this issue again. Can you point out anywhere I have edited in a POV fashion.-- Padraig 12:07, 16 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Astrotrain, you need to stop defensively projecting your own british/unionist bias onto Padraig by trying to say that he has a republican bias— nothing he has done would even suggest that. Its blatantly obvious by now that your willing to try and keep the Ulster banner on articles where it dosent belong no matter how much this damages Wikipedia.

And another thing; stop bringing up that you want to talk about putting the Ulster banner on templates. Its not going to happen because the Ulster banner doesn't belong on those templates. Thats not the direction this discussion is going to go. Fennessy 20:04, 16 October 2007 (UTC) reply

I sincerely hope I'm misinterpreting that comment, because to me that sounds incredibly presumptuous and not a little patronising. This mediation request was filed precisely to discuss the use of the use of Ulster Banner or an appropriate alternative on a number of articles including several templates. Telling Astrotrain to "stop bringing up that" because "that's not the direction this discussion is going to go [in]", when "that" is exactly what this mediation attempt is about is basically just saying "I'm happy to reach a compromise, just so long as I don't have to concede any ground", and that's not what a compromise is about. Now it may well be that we don't end up with the Ulster Banner on templates, but if you can't at least discuss the possibility in a civil manner, then frankly you're wasting all of our time in taking part in this mediation. — ras52 23:12, 16 October 2007 (UTC) reply
We can't seem to even agree on how to show a flag image on a List of flags page. There has been no compromise attempt by the Padraig side on any issue, so I fail to see how the take this forward now. Talk:United Kingdom has established consensus to use the image with a description of status, which I also suggested for List of British flags. Astrotrain 23:19, 16 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Astrotrain read WP:CONSENSUS especially this part:
So in summary, wikipedia decision making is not based on formal vote counting (" Wikipedia is not a majoritarian democracy"). This means that polling alone is not considered a means of decision-making, and it is certainly not a binding vote, and you do not need to abide by polls per se. Polling is generally discouraged, except in specialized processes such as AFD.
You cannot claim consensus based on a straw poll, as many editors didn't partake in the vote on account of the ongoing mediation here, also on the discussion on that talk page it was claimed that poll was only in relation to the United Kingdom article, yet you then went on and edited the List of British flags article claiming in the edit summary as per consensus on the United Kingdom article.
As for no compromise attempt on my part I offered a compromise above, which you reject simply because your idea of compromise is that you be allowed to use the Ulster Banner on any article or template on Wikipedia. You provide no reliable and WP:V sources to back up your argument but you want to ignore all the evidence that the Ulster Banner doesn't represent Northern Ireland and is not a National flag, including evidence from the British Government itself.-- Padraig 23:41, 16 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I feel it important to point out that Talk:United Kingdom does not represent any consensus of any kind, despite the claims of some editors who claim to stand "above" the parties to this dispute but whose words and actions fail to support that contention. ( Sarah777 07:25, 17 October 2007 (UTC)) reply
I'd like to make a point that until each side offers a compromise, writes only according to source material and recognises the alternative standpoint, we will never achieve a compromise. We will always have editors who are for and against the Ulster Banner, and thus we need to workout where it is acceptable, where it is not and what context needs to be provided, if any. What the poll shows however, that no matter how loud and passionate the anti-use camp may be, they are in a minority position; there are more users who feel that regardless of status, the UB's inclusion is more helpful to readers than those who don't and that needs to be considered when deciding upon a way forwards. -- Jza84 · ( talk) 10:28, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Do I read that correctly as a withdrawal of the "consensus" claim? ( Sarah777 11:45, 17 October 2007 (UTC)) reply
No you don't. I've not personally claimed there was or is a consensus - others have though. I've said it before [43] and will say it again, that the poll helps gauge the levels of support and should be recognised as such in forming a way forwards. -- Jza84 · ( talk) 11:51, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply

The compromise I put forward is that the Ulster Banner is use only in these contexts:

  • a) For historical and political topics and templates on Northern Ireland of the period 1921-1972 (government use)
  • b) For N.I. sport-related topics and templates (the only context in which this flag remains in semi-official use)
  • c) For Unionist/ Loyalist (never Republican/ Nationalist) topics and templates from 1921 onward (unofficial use)

This is also the same contexts that WP:MOSFLAG uses. I haven't seen any rational agruement put forward against this yet.-- Padraig 13:33, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply


Does anyone object to me moving this section and all previous sections to Archive 2? To be honest, I don't think anyone has said anything in these sections that hasn't already been said a dozen or more times over. — ras52 19:42, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply

I think its best to leave it, if the mediator wants to archive it, thens it better that he does so.-- Padraig 19:46, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Findings of Fact

Perhaps we should all step back a stage, and attempt to establish the uncontested facts that are agreed by all parties — in much the same way that would happen in an arbitration case. Perhaps the two parties' spokespeople (Astrotrain and Padraig) could indicate briefly below each one whether they agree with them, and if not propose alternative wording that you think will be agreeable to both sides. — ras52 15:14, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply

  • Proposed Fact: Aside from the Union Flag, Northern Ireland has no official or legal flag; in particular, the Ulster Banner has not been the official, legal flag of Northern Ireland since 1972.
  • Agreed -- Padraig 15:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
  • Legal is not a correct term to use, as there is no legislation governing whether a flag is legal or not in the United Kingdom (aside from the use of flags at sea). To state it is an unofficial flag is correct (assuming official means not approved by the central government). Astrotrain 17:32, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
If we change both occurrences of "legal" to "legally-mandated", would you both agree? If your (Astrotrain) position is that there is no legislation governing the flag, then no flag can be legally-mandated; and Padraig, this is just a slightly weaker version of what you've already agreed, so I hope you still agree, even if you'd prefer the stronger version. — ras52 18:11, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I would take out any reference to legality as there flag use on land in the UK is not generally regulated. Astrotrain 18:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Astrotrain the Ulster Banner is unlike the other national flags of the UK, in that the Ulster banner came about due to the Government of Ireland Act, under which the devolved Government was allowed to be granted a warrant for a Coat of Arms to represent the Government which they obtained in 1924/5 the same act give the government to right to have a governmental banner which they took up in 1953, with the design derived from the shield of the coat of arms, so it can be said the Ulster Banner had legal standing through the act of parliament, the same Act that was superceded by that Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973 under which that Parliament and its trappings of power ceased to exist. Which is why the College of Arms advised against any future administation from using the coat of arms.-- Padraig 18:38, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Dosen't alter the fact that the Ulster Banner dosen't represent Northern Ireland so legally-mandated is fine by me.-- Padraig 18:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
  • Comment: Just a suggestion, and there may be a good citable reason against it, but what about the wording "no constitutional flag"? - as opposed to legal and official. Wouldn't that be a tighter definition? -- Jza84 · ( talk) 22:57, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Agree - that the UB is not the official NI flag is a fact beyond dispute; as facts tend to be. Easily verifiable. ( Sarah777 21:38, 24 October 2007 (UTC)) reply
  • Proposed Fact: In some particular contexts (including in some non-political contexts, such as by certain sports teams), the Ulster Banner is commonly used to "represent" Northern Ireland.
  • Comment would suggest rewording this as:
In some non-political contexts, such as by certain sports teams, the Ulster Banner is commonly used to "represent" Northern Ireland as a team.-- Padraig 15:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Works for me; my wording was pretty clumsy. Though could we delete "as a team" from the end? — ras52 16:12, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Suggest, the Ulster Banner is used to represent Northern Ireland, particuarly in international sport competitions and other instances where a flag is used to represent a country or territory. Astrotrain 17:32, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
In what other instances are you refering to, I don't know of any.-- Padraig 17:47, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I have pointed out different instances above. The World Flag Database shows it in the Northern Ireland entry. Astrotrain 18:05, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
The world flag database is a commercial site that sells flags so they would show an image of the product they are selling, the same applies to most of the sites you pointed out above, but what has that got to do with the issue here.-- Padraig 18:14, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Astrotrain, the point of the current exercise is to establish which things you both agree on. And I'm sure you've been through enough arguments with Padraig to know that he won't agree to your suggestion. His suggested finding of fact (or my original one) is perhaps weaker than you'd like, but surely you don't disagree with it? Perhaps if we changed "such as" to "including" (in Padraig's proposal of fact) that would help? — ras52 19:08, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply


  • Proposed Established Fact: Within Northern Ireland, the Ulster Banner frequently carries unionist and/or loyalist connotations.
Agreed, although this is not a reason not to display the image Astrotrain 17:32, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
  • Agreed - though I'd say it always carries unionist and/or loyalist connotations. ( Sarah777 21:38, 24 October 2007 (UTC)) reply
  • Proposed Fact: An significant number (though possibly a minority) of Northern Irish people (particularly, but probably not exclusively, nationalists) find the Ulster Banner offensive due its sectarian associations.
Possibly, but it is a very wide statement that needs to be sourced. Astrotrain 17:32, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
OK. Would you accept that it is highly probable that the majority of Sinn Féin voters are likely to object to the use of the Ulster Banner? In the 2007 assembly elections, 26.2% of votes were for Sinn Féin [44]. I would say that's a significant number, wouldn't you? And that's not counting the 15.2% who voted for the more moderate nationalist SDLP. — ras52 18:11, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
It is probable, but we don't know what these people think unless there is evidence or sources to back up such a statement. Astrotrain 18:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Astrotain in the 2007 Assembly elections the combined Unionist vote was 334,875 votes 47.1% for the DUP/UUP/PUP/UKUP, the combined Nationalist vote was 280,305 for SDLP/SF votes 41.4% a difference of around 54,570 votes between then, so the Unionist majority is not as large as some people think, and I think its safe to say that nationalists don't recognise the Ulster Banner. Add to that the fact that all the Unionist Parties regard the Union Flag as the only flag representing Northern Ireland.-- Padraig 19:04, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Agree - this is clearly another fact beyond dispute. ( Sarah777 21:38, 24 October 2007 (UTC)) reply


  • Proposed Fact: In various other contexts, and with varying degrees of recognition, other flags are used to "represent" Northern Ireland.
  • Agreed This is true in sport.-- Padraig 15:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Which ones? Astrotrain 18:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I presume the reference is to all-Ireland teams (of which NI athletes are a part), such as rugby (which uses this flag), hockey ( flag), and cricket ( flag). Andrwsc 18:29, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Yes, I'd intended it to include those sports flags, but I'd tried to avoid making the statement specific to sporting uses. — ras52 19:23, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
  • Proposed Fact: There is no flag that unambiguously and uncontroversially "represents" Northern Ireland distinctly from the other constituent countries of the UK
Disagree with unambiguously Astrotrain 17:32, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Why?-- Padraig 17:47, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Because it is the only unique Northern Irish flag that is used to represent Northern Ireland seperate from the rest of the UK. That is why it is still used, there is no other. Astrotrain 18:05, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
So outside of its use by some sports organisations, who else uses it to represent Northern Ireland, and we have already dealt with the commercial sites selling flags.-- Padraig 18:14, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Astrotrain, I included "unambiguously" because there are several flags (e.g. the tricolour which is clearly controversial, and St Patrick's saltire which is probably less controversial) that represent NI, but also the RoI — and hence are ambiguous. — ras52 20:07, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Agreed - I wouldn't even make that claim for the tricolour, which is probably the nearest thing. ( Sarah777 21:38, 24 October 2007 (UTC)) reply
  • Proposed Fact: Outside of Northern Ireland, many people may not be aware of the partisan nature of the Ulster Banner; this, however, is not justification for Wikipedia to ignore it.
  • Agreed But there is no attempt being made to censor the use of the flag, only ensure it is used in its proper context, and Wikipedia as an encyclopedia should play a role to educate readers of the facts relating to this. And shouldn't use the flag out of context as this furthers ignorance of the partisan nature of the Ulster Banner.-- Padraig 15:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Noted. My intention wasn't to censor (or require) its use, merely to say that we should take its partisan nature into account when discussing its use, even though some Wikipedians were perhaps previously unaware that it had partisan connotations. If you can think of a clearer way of phrasing this intention, feel free to suggest one. — ras52 16:12, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I understood your intention fine, my answer was in general and not aimed at you personally. I think by not using the flag in the wrong context, and where necessary it the lack of flag needs to be explained providing a footnote/link, linking to Northern Ireland flags issue is adequate.-- Padraig 16:50, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Agree strongly - various (no doubt well-intentioned) interventions from Admins and editors from non-Irish parts of the Anglophone world clearly demonstrate that some people have simply no idea of the history and nature of the UB or the intensely offensive nature of it. ( Sarah777 21:38, 24 October 2007 (UTC)) reply
  • Comment Padraig, you may say there are no attempts being made to censor the flag, but there most certainly are attempts being made to marginalize the flag. Three specific instances come to mind:
    1. Exclusion of the UB from the standard infobox of Northern Ireland, even if shown side-by-side with the Union Jack and with sufficient footnotes to explain the unofficial status.
    2. Keeping the UB out of the Northern Ireland section near the top of the List of British flags article (again, even with suitable explanation about the unofficial status), moving it down so about 100 other flags appear ahead of it (such as the "Northern Lighthouse Board Commissioners Flag" and the "Personal flag of the Administrator of Tristan da Cunha")
    3. Excluding Northern Ireland from the "Home Nations" section of Template:UKFlags, only showing the UB as a historical artifact (and perhaps even implying the Northern Ireland was only a home nation from 1953–1972!).
I believe that this mediation needs to address the importance (for lack of a better word) of the unofficial usage of the UB. For example, is the unoffical usage commonplace enough that the typical Wikipedia reader would find it perplexing to see a supposedly familiar flag excluded from expected places? Without that, there will be no guidelines for situations like the three I mention here. And Padraig, I fully agree with you that we should play a role to educate readers of the facts relating to the UB's proper context. That's why the appropriate footnotes (and links to the Northern Ireland flags issue article) next to the UB in places like a standard infobox would have the strongest educational impact. Andrwsc 16:33, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
There is no attempt to marginalise the Ulster Banner.
1. Can you provide a reason why a non-National flag should be included in the infobox of the main article on Northern Ireland dealing with Northern Ireland today, are there any examples of this on other articles, especially one that is not recognised by either the Northern Ireland Assembly or the British Government.
2. The Article on British flags starts of showing the Current National Flags for each home nation, the Northern Ireland section Shows the Union Flag as the Official flag, something that all the Unionist political parties in Northern Ireland agree with, it then provides a link to the former banner used to represent the former devolved government of Northern Ireland which ceased to exist in 1972/3 in the Historical Flags section, if your concerned about the placing of the historical flag section, then move it closer to the top of the article, but that doesent alter the fact the banner is historical.
3. I addressed this question on the talk page of that template earlier today, as I said there and that needs to be done is add a Link to Northern Ireland without a flag in the Home Nation section, and retain the Ulster Banner in the historical section below that as it is.
On your point on the footnote, if you include a footnote link beside a flagimage, the image overpowers the footnote link and most readers won't see it or ignore it, as seeing the image most people will just assume it is the current national flag, whereas if you exclude the image and just have the link, then people are made aware of the issue. The symbol table on the United Kingdom article is an example of this if you look at the table the footnote link is overpowered by the flag image.-- Padraig 17:15, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Check out Martinique. The French tricolour is not used in that infobox, and the caption notes the unofficial status of the flag. No problem. As for the footnote in United Kingdom#Symbols, I fail to see the problem. None of the other three flag icons have a footnote, so the NI one stands out in my eyes. Andrwsc 17:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
But what is your justification for including the flagimage at all, the other national flags are recognised by the British government, that is not the case with the Ulster Banner, also it stands out to you and me because we are aware of it, but to a casual reader they may not even notice the footnote link.-- Padraig 17:31, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
My justification has been stated before. I think the unofficial usage is commonplace enough that it warrants a more prominent placement in the infobox — with the appropriate caption or footnote to direct the reader to a more detailed explanation of the flags issue. The currently frozen version of the infobox is awkward and clumsy, and violates the principle of least astonishment for the typical reader. We should be guided on what is the most useful presentation for the readers of this encyclopedia. I continue to think that your argument about what the British government recognizes is a red herring to this specific issue. The UK govt. position will show up in the prose text of the appropriate articles, but should not be justification for the non-standard layout of the Northern Ireland article. Andrwsc 19:20, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
In the last straw poll on that which we both took part in those arguing in favour of the Ulster Banners inclusion, rejected a proposal to instead use the Union Flag the only official flag. They also rejected the use of the Union Flag along with the symbol of the Northern Ireland Assembly, They also rejected the idea of showing the Union Flag/Assembly Symbol on top with the Ulster Banner and Tricolour below to represent the two traditions. All these were rejected because to them it had to be the Ulster Banner or nothing else.
The issue was put for request for comment, on wether a infobox had to display a flag image and they where told no and that as no national flag existed they shouldn't invent one, so your non-standard layout arguement is incorrect. Where is this un-official useage commonplace, on commercial websites selling flags, the only place it is used is in sport, outside of that by Loyalists to mark their territory in parts of Northern Ireland.-- Padraig 19:40, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
The straw poll had no consensus for any position. That's why we're here for mediation, isn't it? And I would assert that all the sport-related usage alone is enough to demonstrate "commonplace" usage. Andrwsc 19:46, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
This is where many editors and administrators have gone wrong with this subject— wikipedia is supposed to present facts as they are, not come to arbitrary judgements about issues based on what some people think. N Ireland has no flag except the Union Jack, and the one flag N Ireland used to have can't be used as a neutral symbol because it is offensive and devicive. N Ireland needs a unique image to represent it in some contexts, everyone agrees on that, but the Ulster banner can't be it. Fennessy 19:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
No thats not the reason we are here, where here because editors such as Astrotrain want to add the Ulster Banner to every template relating to Northern Ireland and have caused edit wars all over wikipedia doing so. Also what has sport usage have to do with what is used as a National flag on the main article on Northern Ireland, its not a sports article, but a geopolitical article on the Country/State. Its also the reason why this issue is also being considered as part of the arbcom on British/Irish related articles. And you can't achieve consensus through a strawpoll, see WP:CONSENSUS it makes that very clear, this is a issue of WP:V, those arguing in favour of the Ulster Banner have failed to provide sources to prove a case.-- Padraig 20:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Fennessy, your argument(?) is utterly illogical. I agree that "wikipedia is supposed to present facts as they are", but it is a clear fact that the UB is currently used in many contexts to represent Northern Ireland. You may not personally like that, but that is irrelevant. The fact that it is "offensive and devicive" is also irrelevant. The statement that Northern Ireland needs a better flag is undoubtedly quite true, but that is also irrelevant. Andrwsc 20:04, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
No, in fact you wanting to use the Ulster banner is actually irrelevant, as its use is not recognised by any country in the world, and there is specific legislation prohibiting its use in N Ireland itself. Fennessy 20:36, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Another red herring: how could it possibly be recognized by any country — it is not a sovereign nation. The flag is certainly recognized by multiple organizations that treat Northern Ireland as an entity at an equivalent level as England, Scotland and Wales. Andrwsc 20:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
What are these many contexts that the Ulster Banner is supposed to represent Northern Ireland in, outside of sport that nobody is disputing what are the others.-- Padraig 20:13, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
You've seen this list before. In addition to FIFA and the CGF, we have television networks like ESPN and CBS, and we have the Encyclopedia Brittanica — who clearly show the flag at the top of the article (in an "infobox-like" layout, one might say) and also clearly point out the unofficial status. Andrwsc 20:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Encyclopedia Brittanica shows the image as a thumbnail not as a infobox, it also makes very clear that According to British tradition, a coat of arms or flag is granted to the government of a territory, not to the people residing there. Therefore, when the government of Northern Ireland was disbanded in March 1972, its arms and flag officially disappeared; however, the flag continues to be used by groups (such as sports teams) representing the territory in an unofficial manner. As for ESPN and CBS when did they become authorities on such issues, considering the British Government the overall authority in Northern Ireland after the Northern Ireland Assembly would dispute the fact that the Ulster Banner has any relevence at all.-- Padraig 21:12, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Can we please slow down?

Everybody is telling me that this discussion is getting out of hand, and I agree. We need to stop this back and forth arguing. I'm afraid this mediation cannot continue if we simply continue to present our own POV over and over. This is a case of one POV against another, and my goal is to try to help reach a compromise. Unfortunately, neither side has shown any indication of agreeing to any outcome other than the exact way they want it. For this content dispute to come to any conclusion, both sides need to work together, not continually argue. Also, this page is becoming increasingly cluttered, and I would like to ask everybody other than the two spokespeople to please refrain from editing it. Feel free to leave suggestions on the talk pages of your spokespeople, but I would like to try to condense this argument. Finally, will you both please try to work out a compromise that is acceptable to both parties. Remember, this compromise probably will not be to your complete satisfaction. The nature of compromise is that both sides will not be completely happy with the result, but hopefully we can come up with something to agree on. I would like to see suggestions that you honestly feel could be acceptable to both parties. Thank you in advance. -- דניאל - Danth eman531 20:47, 17 October 2007 (UTC) reply

I already did above, this isn't a issue of agreement as content should be WP:V, therefore WP policies should be followed.-- Padraig 17:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC) reply
For my part I would like Astrotrain to create a box that Padraig might be prepared to go along with using the principles of WP:ENEMY and indicating in what contexts the flagbanner should not be used at all and why. I think it would contain Flag/banner rather than Flag. And it would have explanatory text referring the reader elsewhere. Then Padraig can come back on his specific issues with that proposal. - Kittybrewster ☎ 19:56, 18 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Kitty, what do you mean to create a box ? for what/where.-- Padraig 20:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC) reply
That is the first question Astrotrain would need to address. When to be used and when not. What it is designed for. You have made it fairly clear where you are happy with use of the UB and where you are not. Astrotrain feels differently. I am hoping he will walk a yard in your shoes. If he won't or can't, this mediation has a problem. The solution lies in breaking the problem into smaller parts. How to eat an elephant? One mouthful at a time. - Kittybrewster ☎ 20:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I think it is very clear that Astrotrain thinks he should be able to use the Ulster Banner on any article or template on wikipedia, that seems to be his idea of a compromise.-- Padraig 20:32, 18 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Let's see what he comes up with (if anything). He's obviously have to justify each point of use, as well as bring an offer of a compromise to the table. -- Jza84 · ( talk) 21:11, 18 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I am confident that all involved parties understand the other point of view. Both sides have made it abundantly clear what they believe. Padraig, this discussion is not an issue of WP:V. Both sides are completely verifiable, and everybody agrees on the facts. The disagreement is over what should be done given what we know. This is why I am asking for a compromise solution. This needs to be a bilateral discussion, and everybody is dragging their feet right now. -- דניאל - Danth eman531 21:14, 18 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Sorry but this issue is about WP:V if he wants to use the Ulster Banner as a banner/flag to represent Northern Ireland today, there is numerous sources to say that it isn't including the British government.-- Padraig 21:36, 18 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Howabout we use half of the Ulster Banner. Seriously though, perhaps it's better to remove all the flags (England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland) and simply settle on the Union Jack. Deal with problem by removing it. GoodDay 21:30, 18 October 2007 (UTC) reply
GoodDay, this has nothing to do with the flags of England, Scotland and Wales they are all recognised by the British Government as national flags.-- Padraig 21:36, 18 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I think there is debate as to the full constitutional status of each of the sub-British flags; though agree that the suggestion isn't entirely feasible. -- Jza84 · ( talk) 21:38, 18 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Padraig, I believe that Astrotrain would agree that the UB is not recognized by the British government. His opinion is that it should be used for different reasons. -- דניאל - Danth eman531 21:44, 18 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Astrotrain believes it should be used for every reason that every template and article related to Northern Ireland should show it, that is not acceptable, WP should present factual information and not be used as a political soapbox by a small number of editors. I put forward a compromise which allows plenty of scope for the use of the Ulster Banner in WP in its proper context.-- Padraig 22:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Man this is tough, those against using UB at United Kingdom have a good point (N.Ireland has no official flag) and those for using UB with a foonote on unofficial status -which I support- is an olive branch approach. It's like British Isles used at Great Britain, yet banned from Ireland. GoodDay 21:58, 18 October 2007 (UTC) reply
That is not a olive branch, that is them wanting to push their political POV.-- Padraig 22:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I don't agree. The editting community who've included the banner with the footnote are very much describing the point of view with context, and with a mainstream backing that that's the most helpful approach on the article. There is actually very limited, punishable political/personal POV pushing there. -- Jza84 · ( talk) 22:21, 18 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I tend to agree with GoodDay and Jza on this one, although if the idea is not acceptable to everyone, it cannot be accepted as the compromise. -- דניאל - Danth eman531 22:44, 18 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Howabout this? The UB should be used in pre-1973 articles & subjects; not used in post-1973 articles & subjects. Afterall, 1973 is when the UB was dropped. GoodDay 22:53, 18 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I know Padraig has suggested something along those lines earlier, but I think the problem with that is then debating what constitutes a pre and post 73 topic? Ulster Loyalism? United Kingdom? The Troubles? Could be problematic. -- Jza84 · ( talk) 23:02, 18 October 2007 (UTC) reply

That is what I suggested in a) in the compromise I put forward is that the Ulster Banner is use only in these contexts:

  • a) For historical and political topics and templates on Northern Ireland of the period 1921-1972 (government use)
  • b) For N.I. sport-related topics and templates (the only context in which this flag remains in semi-official use)
  • c) For Unionist/ Loyalist (never Republican/ Nationalist) topics and templates from 1921 onward (unofficial use)

This is also the same contexts that WP:MOSFLAG uses. I haven't seen any rational agruement put forward against this yet.-- Padraig 23:04, 18 October 2007 (UTC) reply

I'll agree with those three points. They're reasonable. GoodDay 23:08, 18 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Thank you.-- Padraig 23:12, 18 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I also think that this could be a reasonable compromise. Astrotrain, any thoughts? -- דניאל - Danth eman531 23:36, 18 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Um, that "compromise" is pretty much the current situation, isn't it? If it was acceptable to all, we wouldn't have this mediation, would we? Andrwsc 23:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Well the alternative is that the Ulster Banner would be used anywhere in Wikipedia, but if they do that outside of the situations above we come in to the problem of WP:V and as they have failed so far to produce any sources to support its use today as representing Northern Ireland outside of sport or its historical usage we are open to edit wars again, which is what we are trying to stop here.-- Padraig 00:03, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I have to say, I agree entirely with Andrwsc. It simply isn't a compromise — it's a list of situations when everyone involved must surely be in agreement that the Ulster Banner is appropriate. — ras52 00:04, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Those are the only situations where the use of the Ulster Banner can be supported by reliable sources, any use outside of that would have to be supported by sources, and in the past eight months not one source has been produced by any of the pro-Ulster Banner supporters.-- Padraig 00:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
You mean, "not one source that I like". Andrwsc 00:12, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
No not one reliable source has been provided outside of its use in sport use which nobody is disputing, Astrotrain come up with a list of commercial sites that sell flags.-- Padraig 00:16, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
The Encyclopedia Brittanica [45] shows a thumbnail of the flag at the very top of its article on Northern Ireland, just above a map. This is pretty much equivalent to what has been proposed for the standard infobox on our Northern Ireland article. Clicking on the flag takes you to an article on the flag itself, where the first word of text is "unofficial". Again, this is pretty much what has been proposed for Wikipedia. Yet you always find some way to ignore or discard Brittanica as a reputable, verifiable, source. Andrwsc 01:32, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
The online Brittanica NI article does imply Van Morrison and Seamus Heaney are products of the peace process!? So, how much reverence need we show it? :-) ...in regards to the issue of sources supporting use of the UB: Where I think the thinness of the sources produced so far for the UB is clear is when one compares the UB sources with sources easily found for the Scottish flag, for example. Neither the UB nor the Scottish flag are 'official' in the statutory sense, but the Scottish flag is used in official contexts. It's seen on Scots government websites [46] and government-connected websites. It's flown from govt buildings in Scotland. It's part of the basis for the logo of a prominent Scottish organization such as the Bank of Scotland [47] (other Scotland organizations seem to do this as well). An official tourism site of Scotland shows the flag and defines it as the "national flag." [48]. Usage of the UB in NI that is equivalent or comparable to this kind of non-sports 'in-Scotland-by-Scottish-organizations' usage hasn't been produced. There have been complaints that the UB is being marginalized, but one wonders if marginal isn't an accurate way of describing the UB? Sports and loyalists: maybe that is the extent of its current margins? Nuclare 04:28, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply

part 2

Padraig, I am almost prepared to agree with the suggestion myself, but I'm still concerned with what constitutes a unionist/loyalist topic? Futhermore, cursory search through DUP material (a unionist/loyalist party - of course) seems to have the Ulster Banner in abayance which is interesting point you yourself haven't made!... So would articles/templates about the DUP and other unionst parties require it? Would you be so kind as to indicate which of the following constitutes a unionist, nationalist and neutral topic and why from the following list? Alternatively, you could indicate which of the following you believe should/could include the Ulster Banner (with context):

I would also personally like an addendum to the proposal outlining that in navigation templates, where the flags of the constituent countries are used, no matter what, we do not use a map icon as this may mislead people into thinking that is the constitutional flag. At very least I think we should use nothing in these situations. -- Jza84 · ( talk) 01:02, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Point c) covers the issue of its use on Unionist/Loyalist articles or templates relating to them, if the Party used the banner then it could be used, but all the Unionist parties in Northern Ireland use and argue that the Union Flag is the flag of Northern Ireland, and the DUP use that flag on their site.
  • United Kingdom - There is no reason for its inclusion on this article, it is not a national flag, nor does it represent Northern Ireland today.
  • British Isles - The Union Flag is used in the infobox to represent the United Kingdom, no sub-national flags are used nor needed
  • Northern Ireland law - This relates to Northern Ireland today, so the Ulster Banner should not be used in this article.
  • Ulster-Scots - I can see a problem if it was used in this article, as Ulster includes three Counties which are in the Republic of Ireland which have large Ulster-Scots populations, so they wouldn't identify with that flag. So that is the provience flag is being used in the article. If the Ulster Banner was used the Irish Tricolour would also need to be used on account that.
  • Template:British Isles - No it shouldn't be used on this template as its not a national flag and the template deals with the current states within that geo-political area.
  • Demography and politics of Northern Ireland - Not in this article as this deals with Northern Ireland today and the Infobox deals with the Northern Ireland Assembly and this is one of a series of articles relating to that. There are another set of articles on this politics of Northern Ireland during 1921-1972 which use a similar template that does include the Ulster Banner such as this one Northern Ireland general election, 1921, this is a template that I created for use on these.
  • Culture of Northern Ireland - I don't see the need for any flags on this article, but if they were included then the flags of both cultures would have to be included.
  • Ulster - Ulster is Not Northern Ireland and the province consists of nine counties of Ireland, six in Northern Ireland and three in the Irish Republic. which is why the infobox uses the flag of the province of Ulster.
  • Ireland (the island) This article already includes the Ulster Banner in the Northern Ireland section, same as the Tricolour is used in the Republic of Ireland Section, also the infobox includes both the Union Flag and Tricolour.
  • Red Hand of Ulster - same answer as for 'Culture of Northern Ireland' above.
  • Culture of Ulster - same answer as for 'Culture of Northern Ireland' above.
  • Culture of Belfast - Don't see the need for flags on this.
  • Banners in Northern Ireland - This is a article on Banners used on parades by Unionists and Nationalists, although it currently only shows Unionist banners, so if flags were included it would need to use the flags used by both communities.

On the point of the use of a map image on some templates, this came about because when the Ulster banner was removed from these it was reverted with the excuse that it made the lists look unbalance if Northern ireland had no flag, so a admin then removed all the flags on some of these templates, which was again reverted. So the map image was used to replace the Ulster Banner, as these templates dealt with Northern Ireland today. I think the map is a good compromise if they insist on using a image as its neutral, although I have no preference really on this as long as the Ulster Banner is not used.-- Padraig 02:23, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply

OK. You make some sound and interested points. But I would also like to see Astrotrain to make a simillar contribution to a matching list outline where and when the UB would be appropriate. I'm personally concerned about a couple of points though. I still think the UBs inclusion on the UK with a note for context should be permissable. I would also expect the UB on the Red Hand of Ulster for historical and graphical reasons - not stating the UB is the current flag.
I'm also concerned that there is a slight element of double standards with regards to using the tricolor (not recognised by the British government for example). It's akin to using the flag of Pakistan for parts of northern England on Wikipedia because of its large communities of Pakistani heritage. At no time has it, as a flag of a totally different country, ever represented NI, and I think using it would very much be political POV pushing. I think it's important to make this clear as part of your proposals, and as such need further d) and e) points. -- Jza84 · ( talk) 10:23, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Is it POV to think that the use of the UB is necessarily political or historical? - Kittybrewster ☎ 10:38, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Possibly.... maybe even, probably (all flags have political connotations which is why people do or don't like them). I've seen no definitive source material asserting either way yet for the UB, just alot of debate. Annoyingly, Google Scholar seems to provide nothing on the Ulster Banner too. -- Jza84 · ( talk) 10:51, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
The Red Hand is not a Unionist symbol as it predates nationalist/unionist, it is a symbol of the 9 county province of Ulster, remember Ulster and Northern Ireland are not the same thing as a large part of it remains in the Irish Republic. The Tricolour is used by a large minority in Northern Ireland and if flags were to be used in a article on the culture of Northern Ireland, then both cultures would need to be equally respected.
Why should the the Ulster Banner be used on the United Kingdom article in the symbols table and for what purpose, what would it be representing, it dosent represent Northern Ireland today and to the majority of Irish people it represents Unionist misrule, bigotry and sectarianism, symbols can convey a very powerful message. Flagimages shouldn't be used just as eye candy on wikipedia put should serve a purpose and when they are used they should be factually correct, so if no current flag exists then we shouldn't create one.
As for double standards, don't you not think that would apply to some of the pro-Ulster Banner editors, they reject anything related to the nationalist community being included in these articles, yet they insist that a flag that symbolises Loyalist extremism today is used. The same editors on the Derry/Londonderry article argue that the article should be moved to Londonderry stating that is its proper name under British Law, yet they ignore the fact that the Ulster Banner is also not the flag of Northern Ireland under British Law but they still want to use it.-- Padraig 11:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I'm well aware that Ulster and NI are not the same thing, but the Red Hand of Ulster does appear on the Ulster Banner does it not? Can you provide a source as to the majority of Irish people believing that the Ulster Banner represents Unionist misrule, bigotry and sectarianism? Do you think that is suitable grounds not to include it on Wikipedia? You also haven't addressed the issue of the tricolor but pointed to a different dispute. -- Jza84 · ( talk) 11:44, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
This is the flag of Ulster, from which the Ulster banner was taken, so as the article is on the Red hand and its origins as a symbol of the province of Ulster why would it have to show the Ulster Banner onless that flag is discussed in the article. Look at the last election results which I think I posted above some where for the 2007 Assembly election, the difference between the Nationalist vote and the Unionist vote is less then 60,000 votes, as the nationalist community reject the Ulster Banner and regard it as a symbol of Unionist misrule and Loyalist extremists, and that is just in Northern Ireland, in the rest of Ireland I doubt you would find many supporters of the Ulster Banner. As for the Tricolour I'am not arguing that the tricolour should be used in articles on Northern Ireland, what I am saying that in a article say on Northern Ireland culture it would be wrong to use a flag used by one side and exclude the flag of the other. The Belfast/Good Friday agreement recognises the existence of both cultures and the political aspirations of both, and so should Wikipedia equally.-- Padraig 12:27, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Again, can you provide a source that the Irish people (an ambiguous term) reject the Ulster Banner as a symbol of unionist misrule, bigotry and sectariansim? It's a rhetorical question of course; no universal definition of what constitutes an Irish person exists, nor has the point in question ever been quantified. You're making a very sweeping statement without backup from published source material. It's a highly politicisied assumption your making that doesn't do well for supporting your case. Even so, it doesn't present a case as to why the Ulster Banner shouldn't be included.
Furthermore, "both cultures"? - you're assuming that the population of Northern Ireland is comprised of just two non-fluid cultures. There is gay culture, punk culture, and elements of the culture of Pakistan in England, but it certainly doesn't legitimise the use of these groups symbols and flags as national flags of a territory, historic or otherwise. What I'm looking for here is not to debate that some elements of the nationalist community in Northern Ireland identify with the flag of Ireland, but that it should never be used to represent Northern Ireland on Wikipedia.
On list of British flags, I would expect the Ulster Banner there; even as a "historic flag". Its a simillar approach taken on flag of India (which also has the Union Jack there - the "possible" historic, British misrule accounted for). The Harp predates the Coat of arms of Ireland, but the article does include the arms (a nationalist symbol??) highlighting its wider use; I think the Red Hand of Ulster should do the same - with context. -- Jza84 · ( talk) 12:51, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
You are totally on the wrong track here nobody has ever argued that the Tricolour represents Northern Ireland, But Northern Ireland is a divide population and in terms of electoral strength their is very little between them and the difference is getting smaller every election. One side of that divided population you have the Unionists/Loyalists who identify with Britain and all things British they identify with the Union Flag the Queen, etc, on the other side you have the Nationalist who reject British rule and identify with Irishness, and the Irish Republic.
Even in sport this divide exists, northern nationalists give their support to the Republic of Ireland National Football team, whilst unionists support the Northern Ireland team, which is why the Northern Ireland team still the Ulster Banner as its symbol because its dominated by Unionists. The biggest sports organisation in Northern Ireland is the GAA.
So the issue of flags is central to national identity within Northern Ireland. The Ulster Banner was the governmental banner of a Unionist Government that ruled Northern Ireland basically as a one party Protestant State for a Protestant people, for 51 years, where Nationalists where treated as second class citizens in there own country, where electoral laws and boundaries where gerrymandered to ensure Unionists remained in power.
The result of this abuse of power led to the Civil Rights Movement being formed to remove discrimination, but the Government choose to use the powers of the state to try and oppress the CRM, rather then make reforms. This failure on their part brought about its own downfall, as the more it use oppression and state violence against the civil right movement, the more violent was the response from the nationalist people, resulting in a 35 year war within Northern Ireland. So you asking for evidence that the nationalist community regard the Ulster banner as anything other then the symbol of Unionist misrule and sectarianism is stupid, the recent history over the past thirty five years shows that. Even the Unionists parties in Northern Ireland realise that the Ulster Banner will never be acceptable as a national flag, which is why none of them even suggested its use during the debates on the issue of flags in the Northern Ireland assembly where everyone of them insisted that only the Union Flag was the flag of Northern Ireland.-- Padraig 14:12, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Um.... citation? Isn't this breif and (again) sweeping one sided unsourced history of politics in Northern Ireland totally unhelpful to mediation? Please keep on point. I've only raised a couple of points which I think need to be addressed, but you're soapboxing and not engaging with them. Furthermore, I take offence at being called "stupid" within a mediation climate, and consider that going on for a breach of the civility policy and my personal digity as a user who is engaging with your points. The two questions I am seeking answers to are:
  • Are you willing to agree that your proposal should include "d) The tricolor of the Republic of Ireland should never be used to represent Northern Ireland." ? If not, why not.
  • Under what policy are you asserting that editors cannot add the Ulster Banner to the Red Hand of Ulster article as an example of wider use? It doesn't seem logical.
A point of communication; I'm quite aware of the history of Northern Ireland. I seek engagement and quality communication regarding the two points I've raised as part of the ongoing mediation to resolve dispute within smaller detail, not the republican standpoint on the history of NI. -- Jza84 · ( talk) 15:07, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Taken the issue of the Red Hand of Ulster you are under the impression that is a exclusive Unionist/Loyalist symbol and therefore its usage is confined to them and its usage in the Ulster Banner, well your wrong in the three southern counties that make up the province of Ulster but are not part of Northern Ireland the red hand is also used as a symbol which is not in any way connected to Unionism or politics of Northern Ireland, there is also this misconception that anyone regarded as Ulster /Scots are Protests or Unionists many parts of Donegal and the other border counties have large populations that are Ulster/Scots and are also Catholic who along with their Protestant Ulster/Scots neighbours, have no interest in being British or connected with Unionism/Loyalism and their flag is the flag of the state they live in, to which they pay taxes to and hold passports of the Irish Republic and for whom their Flag is the Tricolour. So to include just a Ulster banner in that article and ignoring them and their flag is both misleading and insulting. The same applies to the Culture of Ulster. I will repeat again I have never suggested that the Tricolour represents Northern Ireland or should be used in that context, what I said was using the Ulster Banner and saying it is the flag or former flag representing Northern Ireland today whilst ignoring the fact that almost half the population of that area dispute its use is POV, whilst at the same time ignoring their useage of the Tricolour.-- Padraig 16:27, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Can we all calm down a little bit? Jza84— Padraig didn't call you stupid, he said that something that you said was stupid, which is rather different. Nevertheless it was probably an ill-advised choice of phrase. Padraig— Jza84 did raise a good point earlier: can you find a source that states that a large number of Irish people object to the Ulster Banner? I'm not disputing that the statement is true, but can we demonstrate that it is verifiable? It surely must be possible to find a source of some sort that says something like "many [Irish] Nationalists find the continued use of the Ulster Banner offensive". — ras52 15:39, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
When was the last time you seen the Ulster Banner been used in a nationalist area of Northern Ireland, seriously though the nationalist population at the last election to the assembly voted for Sinn Féin/SDLP both parties that want a United Ireland their vote made up 41.4% of the vote in comparison to the total unionist vote of the UUP/DUP/UKUP/PUP who recieved 47.1% that is a difference of 6.7% between them which is less then 60,000 votes, I don't think there is any dispute on how nationalists view the Ulster Banner and what it symbolises to them.-- Padraig 16:27, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
As I said, I'm not doubting that it is true; I'm enquiring whether it is verifiable. "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." [Opening sentence of WP:V.] Can you provide a source stating how nationalists view the Ulster Banner? I'm sure that such a source must exist, but it would really help if we could find one. As you saw above (in the 'Findings of Fact' section), Astrotrain wouldn't agree that "a significant number (though possibly a minority) of Northern Irish people (particularly, but probably not exclusively, nationalists) find the Ulster Banner offensive due its sectarian associations" without a source to back this up. That's not an unreasonable request. — ras52 16:38, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I'am not aware of any opinion polls on the issue, but the recent history of Northern Ireland shows that the government it represented was hated by nationalists, so we can assume they felt the same for the flag of that same government. Astrotrain is very good at asking for sources but not very good at providing them to support his own claims.-- Padraig 17:02, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
It doesn't need to an independent opinion poll; it doesn't even need to be from an unbiased source: after all, a Nationalist politician or journalist is probably quite well placed to comment on the opinions of the Nationalist community. If you could find a quote from some prominent Nationalist, for example, saying "the continued use of the Ulster Banner is offensive to many Irish people", that would a long way to making it verifiable. And that's the sort of thing that naïvely I would think isn't hard to find. — ras52 17:12, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Here is a link to the issue of flags pdf file] on page 25 it mentions the display of the Ulster Banner:
As discussed above, for the category of national flags the meaning attached by people to these regional flags can vary. This is particularly true of the Northern Ireland or Ulster flag which would have been extensively used by loyalists since 1972. Also, it has no official status as a flag for Northern Ireland.
This is from a report on Flag Monitoring.-- Padraig 18:42, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Ras52, I think it might be difficult to find a quote such as you are looking for precisely because the "continued use" of the flag isn't extensive -- so long as its continued use is confined to sports and only some sports at that, there isn't much to complain about, particularly given NI doesn't have a flag to replace the UB with on such occasions. But if the UB came to be used as the govt or civic flag of NI or was otherwise presented as THE flag of Northern Ireland, I have a feeling we'd be tripping over ourselves with sources expressing offense. (Although I'm not sure specifically being offended is really the point. Someone can hate/dislike/feel excluded/un-represented by something without feeling "offended" by it.) Finding direct expression of feelings about the UB has been tricky in the (limited) searching I've done (usually people complain about the Union flag or the UB is probably part of a unspecified catalogue of "unionist flags" that are sometimes lamented). What one does find are sources that associate the UB exclusively with Unionism: The Cain site says it's seen as "...staunchly Loyalist..." [49], for example. Nuclare 15:45, 20 October 2007 (UTC) reply
UTV report on erection of flags. report on intimidation by Loyalists erecting Ulster Banner outside peoples homes.-- Padraig 20:33, 20 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Still not a direct expression of feelings about the flag, but... BBC. It says: "The Equality Commission has advised the [Larne] council that the Ulster flag is an emblem of sectarian significance and should not be flown...." Nuclare 04:16, 21 October 2007 (UTC) reply

I think the Ulster Banner should be used in the following circumstances:

  • United Kingdom- in the symbols/flag tables with the footnote. The flag is discussed, so it is appropriate to include the image and discuss its status.
  • Northern Ireland- to follow the standard Wikipedia infobox for countries and territories. Again the Ulster Banner is mentioned in the infobox, so there is no harm in showing the image, while noting it is unofficial.
  • List of British flags- show the flag in the subnation section. Again the flag is described here but not shown. The current version shows a Union Flag for Northern Ireland but has a description of the Ulster Banner, so obviously needs to be changed
  • Template:UKFlags- include in the Northern Ireland section for Home Nations. The current version says it is historical, but obviously it is still being used so this is inaccurate.

In other articles, I have no real objection to the flag being used or not used. However, if the flag is being described on the face of an article, there is no reason not to include an image. Astrotrain 11:26, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Astrotrain, you say you want to include it in the symbols table of the United Kingdom article, why it is not a national flag nor is it the symbol of Northern Ireland the Shamrock and Flax are the symbols of Northern Ireland, so what purpose does a defunct flag serve when its not recognised by either the British or Northern Ireland governments.
Northern Ireland, again it is not a National flag, the infobox should only show national flags, as the article is about Northern Ireland today not during the period 1922-1972. And the question on wether it is ok to used a defunct flag was subject to a Rfc and the answer given was no, that if no current national flag exists then none should be shown. Remember Wikipedia is an encyclopedia it shouldn't mislead readers by giving false information, the existing arrangement works fine, and the Ulster Banner along with the former Coat of Arms is shown in the main article body.
List of British Flags, again it is not a national flag, so it is not shown in the national flag section, but the Union Flag is shown for Northern Ireland as that is the only official flag recognised. Also the Ulster Banner is mentioned and a Link is given to the Historical flag section direct to the flag. There is nothing wrong with this arrangement, it is factually correct.
Template:UKFlags, why it is not a home nation national flag, provide a link to Northern Ireland without the flag image in the list of home nations, but the Ulster Banner is historical which is why its in the historical flags group, and to use to represent Northern Ireland today is pov, and its use would need to be supported as in all the cases above with reliable sources to claim that it is the current flag of Northern Ireland.
So in other articles you have no objection on its use or not, why then did you start edit wars by trying to put the Ulster banner on all templates relation to Northern Ireland today.-- Padraig 12:03, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Why do you think it ok to mention the flag but not show it? Astrotrain 12:57, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I will assume your refering to the symbols table on the United Kingdom article, the only reason the footnote was add was because yous tried to use the Ulster Banner, the banner was removed as its not Northern Ireland flag then some editer complain that it shouldn't just be left blank without an explaination so the footnote was added linking to the Northern Ireland flag issue article to explain why Northern Ireland has no flag, after that yous started adding the image back, remove both the image and the footnote if you want, but the image dosen't belong on a table as representing Northern Ireland today.-- Padraig 13:17, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I think a reasonable compromise is to include the flag image in articles where it is discussed, and not include it is not mentioned. I propose for me not to add the flag to templates relating to Northern Ireland today (such as Northern Irish cities template) as a compromise by me. Astrotrain 13:29, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
So if you or any other editor decide to edit any article on Northern Ireland and include a mention of the Ulster Banner you want to be able to add the flag to that article just on the basis that the flag is mentioned, if that was the case then if the Tricolour is mentioned in a Northern Ireland article then the Tricolour could also be shown using the same principle, that is a recipe for edit wars. In relation to templates, the Ulster Banner has no place on these templates and can be removed using existing WP policies, So your compromise is meaningless as you seem to be saying you won't edit war on templates to point, if your allowed to add the Ulster banner to any article you want regardless of the lack of sources to conform to WP:V.-- Padraig 14:28, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply


So let me clarify. Astrotrain thinks the UB is the de facto flag/ symbol of the constituent country and should be shown as such, while padraig thinks it is a symbol of wrong-doing on the part of Britain and of a Unionist (political) perspective and should not be shown without the corresponding Nationalist political perspective. Is it a Venn diagram that helps resolve such issues? - Kittybrewster ☎ 15:12, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Yes I do agree with that Kitty. Based on sources from Britannica, World Flag Database and others, the flag is used as the defacto, unofficial flag of Northern Ireland- and accordingly is used when a flag is needed for Northern Ireland such as international football games, and for the Commonwealth Games. As a compromise I am suggesting that the use of the flag be restricted to articles where it is mentioned. Thus we would include it in the Northern Ireland article in the infobox, as standard practice for country articles (and it is already mentioned there anyway), include it in the List of British flags articles for the Northern Ireland entry- noting when it is used, and citing examples. As a compromise, I would not use the flag elsewhere (such as Northern Irish templates). Astrotrain 16:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Not really Astrotrain thinks this flag should be used to represent Northern Ireland as the flag of the country/state in existence today, dispite it being shown that is not the case. I haven't said that a corresponding nationalist flag has to be shown at all, I was just pointing out that if the Ulster Banner image is used just on the basis that it is mentioned in a article, then the Tricolour image could also be shown based on that arguement, and seeing as Atrotrain and others involved in this dispute have rejected any use of the Tricolour in articles dealing with Northern Ireland, his arguement is a contradiction.-- Padraig 15:26, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
On the Northern Ireland article, I believe the Flag of the Republic of Ireland is shown already. I am pretty sure the Tricolour is not mentioned on List of British flags, as it isn't one; or in the United Kingdom article (although it may appear in the British Isles navigation template); and obviously it is not needed in the Template:UKFlags, again for not being a British flag. Astrotrain 15:53, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
So let me clarify further. Astrotrain thinks we are discussing the use of the UB (which has symbolised Northern Ireland and still does so in some unofficial circles – and it is therefore agreed that there should be a note to make this clear) and Padraig replies with comments about the Tricolour which has never represented Northern Ireland (but is symbolic of a neighbouring country). - Kittybrewster ☎ 16:38, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
We are discussing the Ulster Banner and there is no agreement on using it with a note. I didn't bring the Tricolour into this discussion.-- Padraig 17:06, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
No Kittybrewster, no one from either side is suggesting for a second that the tricolour of the rep. of Irland should be used, he was just using that as an example. It's like saying that the Flag of Saint David should be used to represent Wales in infoboxes, etc, just because it's mentioned on the Wales wikipedia article, even though everyone universally agrees that the The Red Dragon flag represents Wales. Fennessy 17:35, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
OK. Sliding past that however, I hear you arguing against use of the UB at all in circumstances (other than a few) even if words could be agreed (in a note) which you were happy with? - Kittybrewster ☎ 17:40, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply

No that is not true, Astrotrain wants to be able to use the Ulster Banner anywhere on wikipedia with a little footnote to point out it not official, that is not acceptable as image convey a strong message and most readers will see the image and assume it is the official flag of Northern Ireland and either not see or ignore the footnote, so doing that is misleading. There are plenty of instances where the Ulster banner can be and is used on wikipedia, in sports article, in articles and templates dealing the History or politics of Northern Ireland between 1922-1972, articles dealing with Unionism or Loyalism in Northern Ireland which nobody is objecting. But I shouldn't be used on article in relation to Northern Ireland today.-- Padraig 18:01, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply

I hear that that is your fear. But it is not what Astrotrain is saying, I think. - Kittybrewster ☎ 18:05, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I Judge Astrotrain intentions on his past record on this issue, where he has claimed false consensus to put the Ulster banner on articles and templates, when no such consensus has ever been achieved, his latest attempt at this was trying to claim consensus from the strawpoll on the United Kingdom talk page strawpoll, even though consensus can't be achieved from a strawpoll, but he used that as a excuse to edit war again on list of British flags.-- Padraig 18:28, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
That, plus to be perfectly honest I think the guy has a nasty anti-Irish streak in him for some reason, I'm not going to speculate. See hes edit history for evidence of that and also this article he created Ryanair Flight 296 Fennessy 18:33, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Neither of those postings seem to me to take this further. Please strike them through and let Astro reply to what I last posted. Then we can go into that issue. I don't want to be distracted by accusations against editors. - Kittybrewster ☎ 18:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Kittybrewster anything I said above can be confirmed by checking Astrotrains contribs, you want me to assume good faith on his part, but that is hard to do considering his recent actions, when even in the middle of this mediation he has continued to edit war.-- Padraig 12:06, 21 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Whether you are right or wrong, the purpose here is to come to a conclusion as to the usage of flags in Northern Ireland articles. - Kittybrewster ☎ 12:51, 21 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I agree that is the purpose of this exercise, but Astrotrain and myself are supposed to be the spokepersons representing the two sides on this issue. I put forward a compromise on this which astrotrain rejects simply because he thinks the Ulster Banner should be used anywhere on wikipedia to represent Northern Ireland, dispite his or other editors being unable to produce sources to support this position, and dispite plenty of evidence that it dosen't, including references from the British government and Unionist politicians that the Union Flag is the Flag of Northern Ireland. So rather then spend time trying to find WP:V sources he has decided to engage in edit warring.-- Padraig 13:06, 21 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I have proposed a compromise where the flag is shown on 4 articles/templates (Northern Ireland, United Kingdom, List of British flags, Template:UKFlags) where the flag would be shown and its status described. This would reduce the likelihood of edit wars across Wikipedia on articles or templates where flags are not mentioned. If the flag is already described on a page, what is the harm in showing the image? Astrotrain 13:43, 21 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Astrotrain the Ulster Banner is already shown on the Northern Ireland article, it is not appropiate on the United Kingdom article as its not a national or home nation flag, in List of British flags it is also shown but not as a national flag as you want, in Template:UKFlags it is already shown but not as a home nation National flag as you want, so the flag is already shown in three of these, in the fourth it dosen't belong in a table showing current flags and symbols of the home nations. On the last point , many articles/templates already show the Ulster banner where its relevent to the article/template, but you seem to want this open provision that any article that can be edit to include a reference to the Banner should display it that is open season for edit warring, as we would have continious edit wars over the inclusion/exclusion of the Ulster Banner/Irish Tricolour based on the fact that it maybe mentioned, however briefly in the text of the article.-- Padraig 14:17, 21 October 2007 (UTC) reply

In otherwords- If it ain't broke, don't fix it. GoodDay 23:41, 21 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Well the flag was shown in these articles before the edit wars which Padraig started. Many editors object to the removal of flags without consensus, and this mediation is supposed to be looking at ways of reaching compromise. But I don't see any moves to gain a consensus position by Padraig so far. Astrotrain 00:03, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Edit wars I started, so I started edit wars by adding the Ulster banner to loads of articles and templates relating to Northern Ireland did I, and there was methinking that was you that did that. As for the point on consensus to remove false information from articles it may surprise you to learn but its not required, you's where ask to provide sources to support the claim it was the flag of Northern Ireland when it was shown that it wasn't, therefore the flag was removed from the infobox of the Northern Ireland article per WP:V. After that you and others starting adding the image to other articles and the templates. So under current WP policies the banner can't be presented as representing Northern Ireland today.-- Padraig 00:18, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Plenty of sources have been provided, as pointed out above by Andrew, you choose to ignore any sources you don't like. Anyone who cares to check the history of any of the articles will see the flag was listed as the unofficial or historic flag and that it existed fine until you showed up. Images of the Northern Ireland flag may not suit Northern Irish Republicans and images of the Irish Tricolour may not suit Northern Irish Loyalists, but that is not a reason to censor Wikipedia. 00:28, 22 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Astrotrain ( talk • contribs)
Plenty of sources exist that it is used in some sports, not that it represents Northern Ireland as a flag of that state, and the articles didn't state that the flag was un-official, in the Northern Ireland Article it was presented as The Flag of Northern Ireland along with the Coat of Arms in the infobox, it was only after I challenged this assertion and ask for sources that the wording was added by me, then when sources where not forthcoming the image was removed from the infobox and put into the main article, and correctly labeled. You keep coming back to this claim of censorship, can you show where this has occured and by whom, I have added the Ulster Banner to loads of articles relating to Northern Ireland during the period 1921-1972 dealing with the politics of the period, so who is doing this censoring. I have also added information to and created articles on Unionist politicans from Northern Ireland.-- Padraig 00:59, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
If your issue is with the description or text- then I am sure an acceptable form of words for any footnote can be reached? Astrotrain 11:13, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
No my issue is you trying to protray the Ulster Banner as the flag of Northern Ireland today, and on the Issue of National Flags in the UK and their status see below the English, Scottish and Welsh flags are recognised by the British Government, so we can put that argruement to rest that you's use.-- Padraig 14:07, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I would like to be able to use images with properly sourced footnotes. If there are sources to say the Flag is not an official or national flag then the wording would reflect that. We know the British government's position which is not disputed- however other sources say the Flag is the unofficial flag, and there is of course evidence of use by Unionists, in sport and other international contexts. Rather than repeat the same argument over and over again about the British government, why not try and reach a compromise wording to be used when the flag is shown? Astrotrain 14:20, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Astrotrain yourself and other editors have argued all along that None of the UK sub-nation flags were official, and that to remove just the Ulster Banner and not the others was part of a POV campaign against the banner, I have always said that the other flags were recognised as National flags and should be included but not the Ulster Banner, and as has been said before use in sport dosent convey any status on the banner, the use by Unionists dosent count either because that is partisan, and by the same token the Tricolour is used by Nationalists and would have the right to be shown as the Ulster Banner. So bottom line is the flag can't be used to protray Northern Ireland today, and can only be used in the contexts I pointed out, for the period relating to 1921-1972, use in relative sports articles and on articles/template dealing with Unionism/Loyalism.-- Padraig 14:38, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
So if we remove the term "national flag" from any footnote or description, you would be ok with this? It would be a case of changing the description on the heading for say List of British flags. Astrotrain 15:04, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
No it would not be ok, it is not and never was the flag of Northern Ireland, unless it in a historical/sport context the flag cant be used for Northern Ireland in any form today, and the List of British flags is correct as its is with the Union Flag for Northern Ireland and the info and link to the Ulster Banner in the Historical flag section, I would suggest that the historical flag section could be moved up the article rather then near the end. Also your mention of Unionists using the Ulster Banner above is wrong see this they use the Union Flag and that is the flag they regard as the flag of Northern Ireland.-- Padraig 15:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply

It's becoming quite clear Padraig has no intention of reaching any sort of compromise on the flag issues- so I can't really see how to take this mediation forward. Does anyone else have any suggestions? Astrotrain 15:21, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Though I agree with Padraig in this discussion, I'd recommend going to 'Arbitration', since 'Mediation' isn't prooving successuful for both sides. A stalemate, can last a long time. GoodDay 15:29, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
It already is in arbitration, what astrotrain and others need to do is accept Fact, the Ulster Banner can't be used to represent Northern Ireland today, the flag is historical outside its limited use in some sports. So rather then continuing with edit wars on this issue they should get back to editing to improve wikipedia.-- Padraig 15:40, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
This should go to the Arbitration Committee, or articles will get locked and editors will get blocked. We don't need that. GoodDay 15:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
It already is in arbitration this mediation on the flag issue is is a major part of that.-- Padraig 15:52, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Oh, I see. Well, whatever the ruling is - dissenters should be 'warned' and eventually blocked. GoodDay 15:55, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply

part 3

Guys, let's not loose faith here. I believe we can still reach a compromise, but both camps are going to have to trade some territory. Astrotrain, Padraig made a 3 point suggested compromise last time. With the debate moving on a little, perhaps you could write one from your perspective of the debate and see how Padraig responds? I think we should give each side some credit and respect here for their continued efforts to engage with each other work this out. Let's have another final push! -- Jza84 · ( talk) 16:03, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply

In Case anyone is confused as to the Status of Flags in the UK read this:

The English, Scottish and Welsh Flags are National Flags, but none for Northern Ireland except the Union Flag.-- Padraig 14:07, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Like Jza84, I believe we can reach a compromise solution here. Let's not loose sight of the fact that we have already achieved quite a lot. Padraig has agreed to allow the Ulster Banner to be used on (i) historical and political topics and templates on Northern Ireland of the period 1921-1972; (ii) Northern Ireland sport-related topics and templates; and (iii) for Unionist/Loyalist topics and templates from 1921 onward. Although this largely reflects the status quo, I imagine that personally Padraig would like use of the Ulster Banner removed entirely, so this does nevertheless represent a concession. In response, Astrotrain has said that with the exception of four articles, he "no real objection to the flag being used or not used". This is a big concession as it means the Ulser Banner will not be used on general geographical (etc.) templates, lists, etc.

Astrotrain does say "if the flag is being described on the face of an article, there is no reason not to include an image." That's actually quite reasonable: there's no reason why an article on, say, mountains or airports should mention the Ulster Banner and I'm sure any mentions of it would be quickly removed. We should assume a little good faith and not take this to mean pro-UB people will add a spurious reference in order to insert the flag.

So, we started out with many many articles involved in this dispute; now we're down to just four: United Kingdom, Northern Ireland, List of British flags and Template:UKFlags. Good work. We should be pleased with that. But let's keep at it: how about both sides taking it in turn to suggest a compromise for these four articles that they genuinely believe the other side may accept. And, yes, that means both sides will need to offer further concessions. — ras52 17:38, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Howabout, Padraig's proposal for 'two' of those articles and Astrotrain's proposal for the other 'two', 50/50. GoodDay 18:38, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Ok lets looks at each of these,
  • Northern Ireland The Ulster Banner is shown on this article here along with the former Coat of Arms here just below it. What astrotrain wants is to include it in the infobox, that is not acceptable, it is not a National Flag.
  • List of British flags again this already shows the Ulster Banner here in the historical flags section, with a link to it from the Current National Flags section here which shows the current official National flag the Union Flag. I have suggested that the Historicial section be moved closer to the top of the article, but the Ulster Banner shouldn't be included in the Current National Flags.
  • Template:UKFlags again this template already shows the Ulster banner in the Historial flags group, below the Home Nations group. Here astrotrain want to remove the historical flag group and include the Ulster Banner in the National Flags group.
  • United Kingdom the national flags on this article are shown in a table on the Symbols section, this table shows the National flag of each of the Home Nations and links to the symbols used to represent each country, the Northern Ireland should show the Union Flag or nothing, we can't use the Ulster Flag as it is not a national flag, and WP:FLAG we should not invent flags were none exist.
What astrotrain is asking is that we should ignore Wikipedia policies on WP:V, WP:OR just to allow him and other editors to use Wikipedia as a political soapbox.-- Padraig 18:50, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
The flag has no use outside limited sporting context - I believe that the compromise put forward by Padraig is entirely fair and should be adopted.-- Vintagekits 20:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Northern Ireland

Proposed compromise for List of British flags. I think we can reference all of the text based on sources discussed above. The image is shown, along with a neutral description.

Flag Date Use Description Status


Official from 1953 to 1973, unofficial thereafter There is no official flag for Northern Ireland- the British Government and the Northern Irish Executive use the Union Flag. The Ulster Banner, the former official flag, is still used in an unofficial capacity, particuarly in international sports competitions, and by Unionists. A red cross on a white field with a red hand, on a six pointed white star, crowned (representing the six counties in Northern Ireland). Unofficial

Astrotrain 20:18, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Would this be placed in the historical section? GoodDay 20:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
No- because it is not historical- it is still used. Astrotrain 20:25, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
And you want to use that were in the 'Current National Flags' section, not acceptable, its not a National flag, and between 1953 to 1972 it was a governmental banner not a national flag.-- Padraig 20:25, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Politcally, the UB is a defunct flag. GoodDay 20:28, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
So if we changed the header from "national flag" to "Flags in the constituent countries" would that be acceptable? Astrotrain 20:30, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Failing that why don't we have it under this current national flags section, but in a sub-section? -- Jza84 · ( talk) 20:32, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Yeah that would also work. Good idea. Astrotrain 20:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I already suggested the Historical flag section could be moved closer to the top of the article.-- Padraig 20:34, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
As the flag is still used unofficially, it cannot be historical. Astrotrain 20:36, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
What's it gonna be? Historical flag a seperate section or a sub-section of National flags. GoodDay 20:39, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
A seperate section is needed for the constituent countries, so I think Jza84's suggestion works well. This way the situation can be explained (ie no longer official and now unofficial). Astrotrain 20:42, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Astrotrain use in some sports dosen't count, it is Historial as the Banner of the Former government. It is in the section it belongs. It was never a official National Flag, so it can't claimed to be an un-official one now.-- Padraig 20:46, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
So why do you want to put it in an historic national flag section , if it never was an historic flag? The fact is the flag is used, so it is not historic. None of the other flags in the historic section are currently used in any capacity and all of them have been superceded by replacements. As the Ulster Banner is still used, it cannot be classed as historic. Jza84 has proposed a useful compromise which I think is acceptable- that way it is not in a national flag section which is your only objection. Astrotrain 20:53, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
The UB was never the official flag of NI saying it is unofficial now implys it was at one stage official. BigDunc 20:57, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I object to you trying to give a status to this flag it dosen't have which the Unionist Politicans in Northern Ireland don't even claim it has, the flag is Historical just as the government it belonged to is.-- Padraig 21:11, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply

How is this for a compromise on the template:

Flag Date Use Description Status


Official flag of the Northern Irish Government from 1953 to 1973, unofficial flag thereafter There is no official flag for Northern Ireland- the British Government and the Northern Irish Executive use the Union Flag. The Ulster Banner, is still sometimes used in an unofficial capacity, particuarly in international sports competitions, and by Unionists. A red cross on a white field with a red hand, on a six pointed white star, crowned (representing the six counties in Northern Ireland). Unofficial

-- דניאל - Danth eman531 22:18, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Just a minor variant, but it might be more acceptable to Padraig. How about this? — ras52 22:34, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Flag Date Use Description Status



Unofficial		 Official flag of the Northern Irish Government from 1953 to 1973, unofficial flag thereafter There is no official flag for Northern Ireland- the British Government and the Northern Irish Executive use the Union Flag. The Ulster Banner, is still sometimes used in an unofficial capacity, particuarly in international sports competitions, and by Unionists. A red cross on a white field with a red hand, on a six pointed white star, crowned (representing the six counties in Northern Ireland). Unofficial

I like these, and they seem to fit well with source material. Perhaps we could tighten things a little with "no official national flag of Northern Ireland", and used by "some Unionists" (piped to Unionism in Ireland) before choosing? Perhaps a statement about Nationalist sentiment towards the flag needs to be included???? -- Jza84 · ( talk) 22:36, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply

At this point, I'll accept anything to end the dispute. GoodDay 22:37, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Furthermore, can we please attribute a source to every statement in these boxes please? Per WP:V? -- Jza84 · ( talk) 22:41, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
It is not an un-official flag as it was never an official one to start with, and it can't go into the Current National Flag. The article as it stands is correct.-- Padraig 23:05, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Yous are all forgetting that the Official national Flag is the Union Flag, and that is what should be used.-- Padraig 23:10, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
"Unofficial" doesn't imply that it was ever previously official — that would be a very odd definition of "unofficial". Just consider the scores of "unofficial" websites for people and places, or the description of "On Ilkley Moor baht 'at" as the "unofficial" "national" anthem of Yorkshire. None of these have ever been official. — ras52 23:21, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Why should we replace a official flag with one thats not, one that fails WP:V and WP:FLAGS, I have no interest in wasting my time on this, the compromise I put forward is in line with WP:V and supported by multiple sources, I see no reason why a small number of edit warriors should be allowed to ignore WP Policies that every other editor has to follow.-- Padraig 23:35, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Let us step back a little then. It seems we were coming to an agreement prior to these boxes being posted. Am I right in thinking that we were working on something along structure and headings, with Northern Ireland being treated as a special case from the other constituent countries on List of British flags? -- Jza84 · ( talk) 23:38, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply

The structure and Headings are fine as they are, and there is no reason to treat Northern Ireland differently, England, Scotland and Wales have recognised National Flags, Northern Ireland dosent and the only official flag is the Union Flag. We can't create flags to appease the POV of certain editors. I said I have no problen with Historic flags section being moved closer to the top of the article.-- Padraig 23:45, 22 October 2007 (UTC) reply

I think Dan's version and Ras' slight variant are acceptable. It avoids the phrase "national flag" that Padraig objects to, and the language is completely neutral. This could go in a constituent country section on the List of British flags article, and then we can move on and discuss the other articles. Astrotrain 18:55, 23 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Astrotrain you seem to be under a misconception here, I have no intention of discussing each individual article or template, on the issue. The Ulster Banner cannot go in any constituent country section of List of British Flags, as it is not the flag of Northern Ireland or is it a home nation flag of any part of the UK.-- Padraig 19:26, 23 October 2007 (UTC) reply

I made it very clear above I am not going to discuss each article or template individually so stop being stupid-- Padraig 19:59, 23 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Astrotrain it had been pointed out to you umpteen times that the Ulster Banner is not to be used to represent NI unless it relates to sport or NI during the period 1921—1973 template:UKFlags covers neither of those -- Barryob Vigeur de dessus 20:41, 23 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Would you care to list them.-- Padraig 22:51, 23 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Template:UKFlags

Proposed compromise for this template:

I think this is a good compromise, building from the suggestions of Dan and Ras above- and also linking into the flag issue page. Astrotrain 19:42, 23 October 2007 (UTC) reply

I have restored this section twice now- please don't delete other people's comments Padraig. Respond to my suggestion below, but keep the text I have posted. Astrotrain 22:22, 23 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Agreed, Wikipedia frowns on editors removing other editors postings. GoodDay 22:25, 23 October 2007 (UTC) reply


I Made it very clear above that I am NOT GOING TO DISCUSS INDIVIDUAL ARTICLES AND TEMPLATES ONE AT A TIME, if astrotrain thinks otherwise then this mediation ends now, and wikipedia policies will deal with his and other editors edit warring.-- Padraig 22:29, 23 October 2007 (UTC) reply

I wish you would reconsider and continue the mediation. Your input is welcome and has helped above on getting a compromise position on List of British flags for example, as well as sources on the British Government's position. I think we are getting somewhere and hopefully the issue will be resolved soon. Astrotrain 22:34, 23 October 2007 (UTC) reply
THERE IS NO COMPROMISE ON LIST OF BRITISH FLAGS ABOVE. if you wish to continue this mediation then stop trying to claim consensus when none is there, and I am not discussing each case individually. so you can now remove this section if you wish to continue the earlier discussion, and maybe you can start by providing a WP:V source to support what your proposing.-- Padraig 22:41, 23 October 2007 (UTC) reply


Padraig, the UB flag image is visible on about 2200 articles on en.wiki, across many different contexts. If you think that a simple, singular, statement of policy is going to come out of this mediation and address all of those pages, you are either incredibly naive or incredibly optimistic. I think it is essential that all the different kinds of usage are resolved. That doesn't mean 2200 discussions(!), but off the top of my head I think there are about 15-20 different areas we need to address. Andrwsc 22:39, 23 October 2007 (UTC) reply
And the majority of them relate to sport we are not discussing them.-- Padraig 22:41, 23 October 2007 (UTC) reply
The majority of the 2200 articles are sport related, but the majority of 15-20 areas of flag image usage are not. Andrwsc 22:45, 23 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Care to list them.-- Padraig 23:55, 23 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Come on, chaps. We've more or less agreed on what should happen to most of the places where the Ulster Banner is or could be used; there are now just four remaining articles that don't easily fit into a broad category. Discussing them individually seems exactly the right thing to do. I don't see why you're so opposed to it, Padraig. — ras52 23:37, 23 October 2007 (UTC) reply

If discussing them individually (one-by-one) will help things along? Let's do it that way. GoodDay 23:48, 23 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Beceause we have already discussed them in the section above, and as no sources have been provided since then to support in inclusion in the context that astrotrain wants then it is pointless repeating the same debate again.-- Padraig 23:55, 23 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Dare I ask, what's the next step? GoodDay 23:58, 23 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Well to start with astrotrain can stop trying to claim consensus when none has been agreed, then he can provide proper WP:V sources to support the context that he wants to use the banner, until then there is no progress possible.-- Padraig 00:08, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Padraig, whenever verifiable, reputable sources are provided, you invariably find some reason to disregard them and/or quote wikipedia policy pages to "support" your opinion. FIFA and the Commonwealth Games Foundation? Oh, that's just sports. That doesn't count. Brittanica? Oh, they elsewhere also state the legal status of the flag, so that's what counts more. TV networks? Oh, since "when did they become authorities on such issues". Andrwsc 00:22, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Andrwsc, why are your bringing sports useage into this nobody is disputing its use in some sports so that is not a issue in this discussion, we are dealing with them wanting to use it to represent Northern Ireland today, [* The Union Flags and flags of the United Kingdom makes it very clear the official position of each National flag in the UK, and dispite the claims that some editors make that none of the UK national flags have status, the British government doe's recognise the England, Scotland and Wales flag as official National flags. So in terms of WP:V I think the official opinion of the British government carries more weight above anything else.-- Padraig 00:41, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
The reputable use by FIFA et al. goes to support the unofficial usage of the flag to represent Northern Ireland today. The opinion of the British goverment supports the lack of official status, which does not contradict the unofficial usage. Both sources support the same position. Andrwsc 01:41, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
If we where discussing its use on sports related articles you would have a point and I would agree with you, but we are discussing it use on articles and templates about the Northern Ireland state, regarding the country as a political enity and the Ulster Banner has no role it that arena outside a minority use by Loyalist extremists, all the main Unionist parties including the PUP state that the Union Flag is the flag of Northern Ireland, a view supported by the British government and the Northern Ireland Executive.-- Padraig 01:57, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Not exactly. We are often discussing the country as a geographic entity, or as a social and cultural entity, not just as a "political entity". Contrast the difference in the definition of a nation versus a state. Andrwsc 03:00, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply

OK, if it'll help things along, let's ignore whether or not a consensus has yet been reached, and, yes, let's look for verifiable sources to support the uses of the Ulster Banner. Let's start by focusing solely on Astrotrain's proposed version of Template:UKFlags (at the start of this section). What in particular do you think this is claiming (or implying) that you think may not be verifiable (or indeed true)? — ras52 00:19, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply

In the List of British Flags he want to include it in the National flag section and change the heading to suit his POV, it is not a national flag and never was. In the Template he wants to include in the Home Nations group, it is not a home nation flag, it historical, I have already said a link without a flag can be added to the home nation section, and the Ulster banner remains in the Historical group where it currently is.-- Padraig 00:41, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
No. In the list, it is in group 3 - historical. - Kittybrewster ☎ 03:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Kittybrewster, look at the top of this section that is what astrotrain wants to have in the template.-- Padraig 03:23, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I did. I opened it up and saw the groups. - Kittybrewster ☎ 03:24, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
So are you agreeing it should be in the Historical group.-- Padraig 03:26, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I think it is and can't see anything wrong with that. - Kittybrewster ☎ 03:28, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
It is currently but astrotrain want to put it into the Home Nations group.-- Padraig 03:30, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Together with the words "Unofficial (See flags issue)". - Kittybrewster ☎ 03:40, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
That is what he wants, but it is not a National flag and dosent belong in that group, and it should remain in the Historical section, I have suggested that we add a link for Northern Ireland in the home nation group without an flag image, and leave the Ulster Banner in the historical group as it is.-- Padraig 03:45, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Proposed compromise for this template:

This is what I propose for this template, I changed Home Nations to Constituent Countries and added a link in that group to Northern Ireland.-- Padraig 09:31, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply

I don't agree with an historical section, as the flag is not historical- it is still used by sports, local government and Unionists. Historical contradicts the current usage. I propose another:

I think this is a good compromise, as it shows both the official and unofficial flags. It builds on Padraig's idea of having a link to the Flag of Northern Ireland in the constituent countries section. I also agree with the renaming of the section from Home Nations. A link to the flag issue article is an optional inclusion if agreed? Astrotrain 09:54, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply

No, the Ulster Banner was not a national flag and can't be included in the Constituent countries section, and you are intentionly ignoring it is historical in the context this template is used.-- Padraig 10:01, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Well, the template is for navigating through the flags of the UK pages- rather than national flags (as it includes Royal Standards, Ensigns etc)- and that term is not included anywhere. I think my compromise works because it links all the flag articles, and has the main image for each article. As a compromise for Northern Ireland- both the official and unofficial flags would be included (much the like the position reached already for List of British flags). Astrotrain 10:11, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
NO position has been reached on List of British Flags it stays as it is, if you continue to try and claim false consensus then this mediation ends now. The Ulster Banner was never a official national flag, so don't try and claim its un-official or de facto now.-- Padraig 10:33, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Well a rough consensus position was reached for that article, that is why I moved on to discuss this template. As others have pointed out, constantly repeating assertions does not help, and only by discussing how to solve the dispute will a resolution be reached. You say it is not an official national flag, and we have taken a position to avoid using that term, thus it does not appear on the template for Northern Ireland. Consensus will be reached Padraig, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will be your prefered version. Astrotrain 10:47, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I don't think "If ... then the mediation ends now" is a constructive way forward. - Kittybrewster ☎ 10:54, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Kittybrewster, WP:V is one of the main policies of Wikipedia, and under that policy alone, the Ulster Banner can be removed if someone try to use it as the flag of Northern Ireland outside of its use in sport or its historical context. Astrotrain has a number of times claimed consensus in this discussion, dispite failing to provide any WP:V sources to support his claims.-- Padraig 11:06, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
No concensus was reached, yet you tried to claim one, what would really help is you providing WP:V sources, without which your claims of any status are invalid, and in case your forgetting, yourself and I are presenting the two sides in this issue, so its not a case of your canvassing support from others, although others are welcome to add comment, it has been stated by the mediator that it would be better if they did this on our talkpages other then here. As for my position as you call it, this is an encyclopedia it deals with WP:V facts, those facts state the flag has no status as a national flag of Northern Ireland, nor ever did.-- Padraig 11:06, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
As Andrwsc pointed out above, you always come up with an excuse to rubbish any source you do not agree with. Rather than work with the editors on this page, you have rejected every suggested compromise. Look at the compromise position reached on List of British flags, as proposed by Ras and Dan and accepted in principle. Rather than accept the consensus, you go in the huff and delete other people's comments. I also see you have been warned again by an admin for edit warring and continue to edit Northern Irish flag pages against consensus. I really can't see why you are so opposed to a flag image with neutral and sourced text footnotes- and I suspect no one else can either. Astrotrain 11:45, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Astrotrain I have no problem with the use of the flag image, my problem is the context you wish to use it in. All your sources are either commercial websites selling flags or sport related and Andrwsc relate to sport use, which is not the issue here, you want to use it as a current or former National flag yet fail to support that with sources.
As for your comment on edit warring, see the Admins Johns talk page where he actually blocked the anon IP and blocked him again when he logged in under another anon IP and continued to edit war, so don't accuse editors of edit warring when that was not the case the IPs where disruptive editing which is viewed as vandalism.-- Padraig 12:00, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Since 'Astrotrain' and 'Padraig' appear unsuccessful in reaching an agreement; I'd recommend they drop out of this mediation and allow others to work it out. GoodDay 13:25, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply

GoodDay 13:25, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply

I was going to suggest that- it may help break the deadlock. It is obvious that Padraig is unable to take the mediation seriously, given his behaviour in recent days (deleting comments, edit warring on flag issues, personal attacks etc). Who else is willing though? Maybe you, Jz, ras and Andrw can agree something? Astrotrain 13:35, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Have to disagree with your suggestion GoodDay theses two editors have put them self forward to represent respective camps. Would you have it 2 other editors take over and start from scratch with the same arguments. BigDunc 13:33, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
It's just that they've gotten to a point where they're arguing over who's compromise is better. I also dislike seeing them getting personal with each other. GoodDay 13:37, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Is it not up to who ever is overseeing this to rein editors in if personal attacks and edit wars are being carried out as the accusations above suggest. BigDunc 13:41, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply

You quite correct, BigDunc. Here's an idea - let's combind those proposed templates - Have a column called National and Historical Flags with the designation of 'historical' put next to the UB. GoodDay 13:46, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
The problem with this is that Astrotrain wants to show the Ulster Banner beside the flags of the rest of the constituent countries even though it has no equal status with the other flags. -- Barryob Vigeur de dessus 13:52, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply

GoodDay, the only thing required to move this mediation forward is that astrotrain provides reliable sources for what he wants to do, until till that happens then no progress will be made, instead of his current efforts based on what seems be a WP:ILIKEIT basis of what reality should be.-- Padraig 14:00, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply

My opinion on the subject for what it's worth is that it is the misrepresentation of the UB that causes problems re edit wars. It was never officially the flag of NI so I feel saying unoffically gives the reader with no knowledge of this flags use or conotations that it was official at one stage which is wrong. BigDunc 14:29, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
“Unofficial (not that it ever was official – see northern ireland flags issue)” - Kittybrewster ☎ 14:54, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply
No thanks, not even as a joke.-- Padraig 15:06, 24 October 2007 (UTC) reply

I see no WP:V sources have been forthcoming on this by astrotrain yet.-- Padraig 16:21, 25 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Looks like things have settled, Padraig. Your compromise seems adopted. GoodDay 17:53, 26 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I will believe that when the edit wars on the issue stop.-- Padraig 18:07, 26 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Padraig hasn't made any compromises- so there is nothing yet to adopt. He is also edit warring on flag articles throughout Wikipedia even though he is supposed to be in mediation. Astrotrain 10:46, 27 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Astrotrain, where are the diffs for this alledged edit warring that you say is going on, as for compromises I set out the contexts that the Ulster Banner can be used, if you want to use it outside of them then its up to you to provide WP:V sources to support the context you want to use it in.-- Padraig 11:41, 27 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I think we need someone else (perhaps the mediator or an admin) to determine where enough sources have been provided for the compromise solutions I have proposed. Astrotrain 12:23, 27 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Well you need to provide them first and you should read this from the arbcom, and I see you ignored my request for diffs on this aledged edit warring.-- Padraig 12:30, 27 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Padraig is the only person to have suggested a ligitimate and above all viable compromise— what you suggested Astrotrain just opens the door to using the Ulster banner anywhere and everywhere. Fennessy 19:54, 27 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Padraig has not compromised- that is why is vandalising this talk page by deleting compromise suggestions. Note that other editors are prepared to compromise, and will reach a consensus without him. Astrotrain 19:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Astrotrain, there can be no compromise that dosent comply to WP:V so rather then arguing over this provide sources to support the use of the Ulster Banner in the contexts you want to use it, until you do so then this discussion is going nowhere.-- Padraig 19:45, 28 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Oh for goodness sake, Padraig, Astrotrain has already produced dozens of sources, and for each one you produce some mendacious excuse for not accepting it. I don't see how you can expect him to produce anything more. — ras52 23:13, 28 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Ras52, links to over a dozen commercial websites that sell Ulster Banners proves what, nothing but the fact that they sell them, it dosen't provide any context to use the banner to represent Northern Ireland as a Country or State today.-- Padraig 00:58, 29 October 2007 (UTC) reply
The sources he provided were neither clear or authoritative, where as the source that Padraig has provided in my opinion carry a lot more weight. To me it is clear that the Ulster Banner should not be used outside of historical and sporting context that it applies to.-- Vintagekits 23:16, 28 October 2007 (UTC) reply
The evidence for using the UB outside the restricted Unionist context it is currently used is underwhelming. The demands of WP:V clearly support Padraig's reasoning. In fact in the light of recent IFA attempts to force Irish citizens to play for NI (one of the key arguments for the UB is it's representation of the NI soccer team) - the grossly partisan status of this Loyalist symbol is clear. Half the population prefer to play under the Tricolour and must be coerced by FIFA to play under a repugnant symbol to stop wholesale defection to the RoI team. ( Sarah777 00:49, 29 October 2007 (UTC)) reply

move indendt Im sorry but how on earth is this classed as a source ? -- Barryob Vigeur de dessus 01:48, 29 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Yeah really ras52, you need to change the adjective "mendacious" to "valid". How exactly is anyone being dishonest by saying the sources Astrotrain provided are nonsense? Whats more, they are the very definition of WP:OR, he clearly just went on google and reposted whatever random crap he found here. It's not a case of "not liking the sources" as it is recognising them as invalid.

And Astrotrain you need to get real— nobody is coming to a compromise without the consent of Padraig as he represents 5 or 6 different people here. Seems to me you have completely missed the point of what a "mediation" is by even saying that. Fennessy 20:01, 29 October 2007 (UTC) reply

They are not presented as sources- merely to show the range of institutions showing the Ulster Banner. Some had claimed the flag is not used to represent Northern Ireland, while it is clear that a range of institutions from FIFA and UEFA to more diverse sources like pop stars and strange churches use the flag in the Northern Irish context. No one was ever suggesting using the church for example as a referenced source (which would be impossible in my context anyway as I don't think it mentions the flag specifically).
I have asked the mediator to consider the reliability of sources. As far as I can see no one disputes the text, rather the image. Astrotrain 21:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC) reply
So your now admitting you have not given any WP:V sources, yet you want to be able to use the Ulster Banner in any context to represent Northern Ireland today. As for the FIFA and UEFA sites these are sports use which is not a issue here as its use in sport is not disputed. So what other institutions are you claiming use it, and pop star fansites and strange churches are not institutions.-- Padraig 21:39, 29 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Padraig, it is clear that you would not accept any source that does not suit your own Republican POV. Proposed solutions have been suggested, and the only thing you reject is the flag image. That is why I have asked for clarification on what sources can be used from the mediator. Astrotrain 21:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Let's all calm down, and await the mediator's review of Astrotrain's sources. GoodDay 22:01, 29 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Astrotrain, this seems to be a habit of yours of accusing me of having a Republican POV, just like you accusing me of edit warring earlier in which a admin blocked two anon IPs for disruptive edit warring. You are attempting to cloud the issue to cover the fact that you haven't and can't find one reliable source to support your claims. The mediator or anyone else can't judge sources unless you provide them to start with, nor is the mediator going to provide sources for you.-- Padraig 22:06, 29 October 2007 (UTC) reply
You have a warning for edit warring on Flag of Northern Ireland. Anyway, let the mediator return to decide if enough sources have been provided. As another editor pointed out, enough sources exist to support including the flag on the articles I have suggested. Astrotrain 22:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC) reply
No he dosen't. There were 2 anon-editors vandalising that article and Flag of Ireland article. GoodDay 22:52, 29 October 2007 (UTC) reply
[50]- warning was left. I note in one of the warring edits, he says "the flag is discussed in the article" as justification for re-including a particular flag- and argument he denies can be used for the Northern Ireland flag. Astrotrain 22:57, 29 October 2007 (UTC) reply
The anon IP added the Union Flag to the flag of Ireland article, it was reverted because the image was already on the article and didn't need to be duplicated, he them proceeded to remove the Tricolour from the flags of Northern Ireland article on the pretext that as he claimed the Union flag was being censored from the flag of Ireland article. This was clearly not the case yet he continued to edit disruptively, which is why he was blocked twice.
As for sources you haven't provided any yet.-- Padraig 23:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC) reply
So why did you say "the flag is discussed in the article" as a reason for having that flag on that article, when you have stated here that the Ulster Banner cannot be shown next to text describing the flag? Astrotrain 23:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Which is the reason that the Tricolour is included in the Flag of Northern Ireland article just as the Union flag is included in the flag of Ireland article as it is discussed there, so I fail to see what point your trying to make as they are articles dealing with flags, you seem to trying to use a Strawman arguement here.-- Padraig 23:45, 29 October 2007 (UTC) reply


Astrotrain, this is the warning your refering to issued by John, and as you can see here in the discussion on his talk page I made two reverts on anon IP removing factual content from the article, and John ended up blocking the IP the same person then logged in using another IP and was blocked as well by John for disruptive editing. So stop trying to twist things.-- Padraig 22:54, 29 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Reversion of edits by anonymous IPs do not count as a revert - "The Troubles" Arbcom. ( Sarah777 23:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)) reply

Astrotrain, I don't think you're doing yourself any favours by pressing this point. If you look at this thread on John's talk page, you'll see that he does not seem to consider Padraig's "edit warring" on a par with that by the two IP addresses. (The IPs got blocked; Padraig didn't.) In fact, I would hope you yourself would agree that Padraig's edits weren't unreasonable. So lets stop these personal attacks. — ras52 00:47, 30 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Just letting everybody know, Arbcom has just annouced their ruling on the article The troubles and relating articles. I believe that ruling might cover this discussion. GoodDay 22:32, 30 October 2007 (UTC) reply
It does and one of the findings enforces WP:RS and WP:V.-- Padraig 22:45, 30 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Seriously, Padraig, your continued references to RS, V, OR, etc. appear as a serious case of policy shopping. These policies simply do not apply! This, and this are two very reliable sources that show the Ulster Banner in unofficial use, and this and this are two reliable sources that show the flag with an explanation of the current status of the flag. The discussion here should not be about the status of the flag — there should be no dispute there. The discussion should be about how Wikipedia should use the flag image, in an encyclopedic manner, and consistent with the status of the flag. I hope you can see the distinction. Andrwsc 00:11, 31 October 2007 (UTC) reply
"The discussion here should not be about the status of the flag — there should be no dispute there." Agree. The flag has no status, and we should not be discussing it, least of all "how Wikipedia should use the flag image." ( Sarah777 02:04, 31 October 2007 (UTC)) reply
I know Padraig was accused of rubbishing sources, so I'm going to keep up the grand tradition! :-) ...because--however, heretical this may seem--I think the Brittanica article is rather close to rubbish on this subject: It contains a statement on the flag that is at least deceptive and arguably just plain false. It says the UB is "flown subordinate to the Union Jack." "Flown subordinate" is a choice of wording that implies some regulation on how the UB is flown in relation to the UF, but as there is no such regulation, this is a highly questionable statement. The UB isn't 'flown subordinate' to the UF; the UB has NO status in relation to the UF. The fact that they are sloppy in the way they chose to word the UB's description, not to mention their calling the UF the 'Union Jack' in a less than accurate context, leaves me less than enthusiastic about that as a reliable source on this particular subject. I'm not quite sure what you think the Flags of the World site proves? Except that the UB is a flag and it's associated with Northern Ireland, which I don't think anyone is disputing. The UB appears on the Wiki "Flag of Northern Ireland" page, which I don't believe Padraig has objections to it being there. (Or does he?) That seems to be an equivalent sort of page to what the FOTW page is. And that's all. It's not the equivalent of the NI infobox or a template that lays the UB along side (with the same size and set-up) the Scots/Welsh/English flags . If you compare the NI page at FOTW to the Scotland page at FOTW [51], I think it's fairly apparent that they are treating them differently. So...this leads us back to sports. All sports, all the time. Nuclare 02:27, 31 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I have no objection to the Ulster Banner on the Flag of Northern Ireland article, as it is clearly stated it is the flag of the former government, same as on the Flags of the United Kingdom. But astrotrain wants to use it anywhere as he asked here:
  • d) As an unofficial flag of Northern Ireland, used to represent Northern Ireland seperate from the UK (as in List of British flags, UK, Template:UKFlags)- with a note to state unofficial status. Astrotrain 21:30, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
This is asking for a open clause to use the Ulster Banner in any article, to represent Northern Ireland, he mentions three articles/templates, two of which already show the Ulster Banner but currently in its proper context, the third has no reason to show the banner. So its not the showing of the image itself that astrotrain wants, its the context in which he wants to use it as the former flag of Northern Ireland which it is not and with the adding a little obscure footnote that most people won't see. Plus even if was allowed to use it on a limited number of articles in that manner, it won't be long before they then start trying to add it elsewhere, with the excuse as per X article/template and we are back to square one with endless edit wars again. There is no problem with of the Ulster Banner but it should be remembered that there is limited use of the flag in sport, Commonwealth Games and the Northern Ireland Football Team, and of all the sport use of flags in Northern the use of the Ulster Banner is in a minority compared to other flags used.-- Padraig 08:42, 31 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I don't want to use it anywhere. I suggested 4 articles where the flag is mentioned and described in detail where it should be used. Astrotrain 19:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC) reply
The point of the FOTW and Brittanica links (and the others) is that they are examples that demonstrate the visibility of the Ulster Banner in somewhat common places. Yes, two of those examples are sport-related, but since Northern Ireland is not a sovereign nation, there would be very few other instances in which Northern Ireland is uniquely represented. My point is that we shouldn't discount sport-related usage for that reason alone. Why should we? Andrwsc 05:04, 31 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Because its use in sport is minimal, and none of the articles/templates are connected to sport, I think it a lame excuse if its use in sport can somehow be used to try and convey status to a banner to use it as a National Flag in templates dealing with the Northern Ireland state today when Both the British government and the Northern Ireland Executive don't even give it any status, and all of the Unionists MLAs and MPs state the Union Flag is the only flag of Northern Ireland.-- Padraig 08:42, 31 October 2007 (UTC) reply
"there would be very few other instances in which Northern Ireland is uniquely represented" But the point is, as I demonstrated way up above on this board, there are all sorts of official, semi-official and respected institutions within Scotland that use the Scottish flag or its image, for example. And Wales as well. Nobody has been able to produce one such similar example for the UB in NI. Only sports. All sports, all the time. And if it is just sports, then that makes the Brittanica article even less reliable because that is where that "organizations, such as sports" wording comes from, which would be deceptive. And I don't think sports related usage is being "discounted"--the question is does that use alone elevate it to 'the flag of NI' to be treated the same as the flag of Scotland, etc.? Nuclare 12:01, 31 October 2007 (UTC) reply
The use on britannica is understandable because britannica has significantly less articles than wikipedia. I can't remember the exact figures but I know that wikipedia has something like 10 times the number of articles that britannica has. In this case that basically translates as more chances to missuse the flag in question if a person is inclined to do so.

Nobody is "discounting" the ulster banners' use in some sport contexts, everybody here acknowledges that, but it's extremely tenuous reasoning to insist that it's use in sport over-rules the governments of the UK & the Northern Ireland Executive. Fennessy 13:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC) reply

You know, I think we may be in semi-agreement here, even though it doesn't look that way! I am not proposing that the sport-related usage should equate to an "open ticket" to justify usage in any Wikipedia instance similar to how the English, Scottish and Welsh flags are currently used. Far from it! But I am thinking that it is sufficient to justify a very select number of instances that currently do not reflect the current unofficial usage. One example is Template:UKFlags. I think that only including the UB as a "Historical flag" completely discounts the current sport-related usage. I think I agree with Astrotrain's suggestion (for this specific template) to put the flag with a "caption" and wikilink to Northern Ireland flags issue in the same section as the other three. But I do not agree that using the UB on templates like Template:UK cities, Template:Lists of Marilyns, etc. is justified in any way. Andrwsc 16:18, 31 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Agree. Using the flag where it is descirbed and instances where it used is appropiate. Astrotrain 19:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I also agree. The Ulster Banner should be used in the sporting contexts where it is used - it is used in international football to dont players that play for the Northern Ireland football team and is also used for participant in the Commonwealth Games. This has never been disputed and the Ulster Banner should be continued to be used in this context.-- Vintagekits 20:35, 31 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Andrwsc, in the Template:UKFlags, the issue of sports use is easily noted by adding a note on the Ulster Banner in the Historical section, there is no reason for The Ulster Banner to be used in the Constituent countries section.-- Padraig 21:44, 31 October 2007 (UTC) reply

As shown in this table.-- Padraig 21:52, 31 October 2007 (UTC) reply

It is not historical if it is still used, that is a contradiction- why not

Astrotrain 21:56, 31 October 2007 (UTC) reply

Because its not a national flag, which is what you want to give the impression that it is, the solution I give caters for your sport use concern.-- Padraig 22:04, 31 October 2007 (UTC) reply
It doesn't say it is a national flag. You wish to state it is an historical flag, when it is anything but. It is also used outwith sport (eg by local government). Astrotrain 22:08, 31 October 2007 (UTC) reply
The constituent counties is for national flags, and its use by one or two Unionist Councils in Loyalist strongholds out of 26 councils is not justification for its use as a national flag.-- Padraig 22:16, 31 October 2007 (UTC) reply
It would state "unofficial" and a suggested link to the flags issue page. It doesn't state anywhere that it is a national flag (although it is an official national flag in a sports context). Astrotrain 22:34, 31 October 2007 (UTC) reply
It is not a unofficial flag as it was never official to start with, and its use in sport dosent give it any status.-- Padraig 22:45, 31 October 2007 (UTC) reply
This is just absurd pseudo-legal doublespeak. "Unofficial" means "not official", not "previously official". "Status", by definition, means a relative position. Therefore, "unofficial status" is wholly accurate to describe non-governmental usage. Andrwsc 22:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Plus unofficial can be sourced- Britannica "unofficial flag of a unit of the United Kingdom" [52]; flags.net "Northern Ireland (unofficial)" [53]. Also, the use by sports in the current day at the very least gives it a 'non historical' status. Astrotrain 23:01, 31 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Astrotrain, it is historical in a political sense, this is not a template for sport usage of flags, but flags used in a political context to represent the constituent countries, if any flag appears beside the Northern Ireland entry it would have to be the Union Flag, as represent Northern Ireland.-- Padraig 23:13, 31 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I don't see anything in that template that says or implies it is limited to a "political context" only. When I look at it, I simply see a navigational aid for the set flag articles for the most commonly known UK flags. That may be the source of conflict with you and Astrotrain here (and probably many other places) — you both have an implicit bias that colours your perception of something as terse as an infobox or navbox. You imply more than what is actually stated or shown. Andrwsc 23:37, 31 October 2007 (UTC) reply
"When I look at it, I simply see a navigational aid for the set flag articles for the most commonly known UK flags." That maybe what you see, what many people see is something akin to using the Swastika as a navigational aid to present day Germany. ( Sarah777 01:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)) reply

Geographical uses

It seems that everyone has accepted that in geographical navigation boxes, such as {{ Lists of Marilyns}}, it is inappropriate to use the Ulster Banner. This leaves the question of what to use instead. Currently, some navigation boxes are using this image: ; others are omitting the image entirely. In both cases, this gives the navigation boxes an inconsistent feel with some areas having flags and others having maps (or nothing). Personally, I don't particularly like this, and it also encourages editors who are unfamiliar with this dispute to come in and "fix" the templates to make them consistent.

In an attempt to resolve this, I have created a new template, {{ BIThumbMap}}, that produces various thumbnail-sized maps for the different geopolitical entities in the British Isles (including Ireland). I have already proposed that this is used by {{ Lists of Marilyns}} to produce what I hope is a consistent and uncontroversial navigation box. However, I'm also mentioning it here in the hope that it might prove useful in other similar templates. — ras52 15:26, 29 October 2007 (UTC) reply

I quite like these templates well done, they could be used in many contexts.-- Padraig 15:42, 29 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Agree with what you produced for the Marilyns; looking at {{BIThumbMap}, why the tree-chart? As it implies Ireland is part of the British Isles I find that unacceptable. ( Sarah777 16:12, 29 October 2007 (UTC)) reply
Sarah the tree-chart is irrelevent as its never seen in use, as only the images are used, as for the british isles issue that has nothing to do with this mediation here, so keep that for the discussion on the British isle article.-- Padraig 16:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC) reply
There are seven separate entities in this archipelago: the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Each of these have their own map, and the template does not supply a default name for any of these entities, so if, for example, you wish to use Ireland (without "Republic of") or "Éire" instead of "Republic of Ireland", that's absolutely fine. The template also provides images for various larger entities that are combinations of the seven basic ones; the tree simply makes it clear what is included in which image. (I chose to format it as a tree because at a glance it might not be immediately clear which images include the Channel Islands and/or the Isle of Man.) Again, for these, you are entirely free to use whatever name you want, and the template doesn't provide a default. So if you prefer "Islands of the North Atlantic" or "Britain and Ireland" instead of "British Isles", you're free to do that. And you can assume that "BI" (the code) stands for whichever of "Britain and Ireland" or "British Isles" you happen to favour. But as Padraig rightly says, this is all utterly irrelevant to this discussion. — ras52 17:15, 29 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Agreed Padraig; as already stated on the Marilyn discussion. While strictly the BI issue is separate, following the recent Arbcom we must consider that there is a range of "troubles" related articles where opinion on a whole raft of issues splits roughly along British/Irish lines. I am concerned that by compartmentalising each debate the majority can argue one way in one case and win by sheer numbers; in the next case, the principles can be fully reversed - and again the numbers carry the day. I am not, however, claiming any great parallels between the BI name issue and UB flag in terms of arguments used by either side. Just concerned that adoption in one case might have implications for another case. ( Sarah777 18:48, 29 October 2007 (UTC)) reply
Quite correct, we need a WikiProject to help co-ordinate all these British/Irish article disputes. GoodDay 20:09, 29 October 2007 (UTC) reply
These images are fine, but I think this one: is just as neutral to represent N Ireland. But whatever it's all good. Fennessy 20:16, 29 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I'll go with that. GoodDay 20:31, 29 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Fennessy, I'm not disputing the neutrality of or . I created new ones partly because it is difficult to create a whole series of images matching the style of an existing one — no doubt I have different software to the original creator, etc. And partly because I felt that a map showing NI within the whole island group (whatever its called) was clearer than a map of NI in isolation — I thought that the former would be more useful to someone who was not particularly familiar with the geography of these islands.
And Sarah777, I'm absolutely not trying to sideline the whole "British Isles" versus "IONA" versus "Britain and Ireland" issue. That's why I made the template not display any text at all. Yes, I refer to it as the "British Isles" in the template documentation, but that really is just documentation on how to use the template, not a suggestion of what to call the island group. — ras52 00:24, 30 October 2007 (UTC) reply
I think the proposed Marilyns (with the maps showing each country in the British Isles) is a good idea. It may also work in the British Isles navigation templates. Astrotrain 21:38, 29 October 2007 (UTC) reply
Would it be helpful to have a subdivision of the island of Ireland, separating it into the four provinces? I have just come across an image which purports to be "Arms of Ulster" (I suspect nobody on this page needs to have the difference between Ulster and NI spelled out) and depicts the bloody hand on a white background. Which seems to me just plain wrong. I think the artist has misled himself, relying on goodness knows what source. - Kittybrewster ☎ 19:16, 3 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Where did you come across that was it on wikipedia.-- Padraig 19:50, 3 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Yes and no. A user page. - Kittybrewster ☎ 23:27, 3 November 2007 (UTC) reply
I'm sorry, I'm not entirely sure what you're suggesting, Kittybrewster. Are you saying you'd like the Ireland image to have lines superimposed marking the four provinces? If so, that's unlikely to work solely because the resolutions are so low. Or are you asking for four separate images, one per province? If so, I can certainly produce them. Although, in the particular case of the Marilyns template, I don't think they're likely to be of use as, for the purpose of looking at mountains, the four provinces don't provide particularly useful subdivisions. — ras52 10:47, 4 November 2007 (UTC) reply
No, I was suggesting a division within BIThumbMap - not within Marilyns. - Kittybrewster ☎ 12:22, 5 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Just as a notice here, I have used these wonderful images that ras52 created to update all of the UK/Ireland portals. For example, I updated this subpage to what you see now at Portal:England (scroll down to the "Related portals" section). I really think that these images can be used to replace flags in quite a few places to simply avoid any flag issues altogether. Andrwsc 18:55, 6 November 2007 (UTC) reply
I like that, I agree these images can be used to solve alot of these disputes.-- Padraig 19:04, 6 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Maybe use the plain outline as the one with the trace of the traditonal counties can sometimes be objected to.-- Vintagekits 19:31, 6 November 2007 (UTC) reply
I've no idea what you're talking about. With the exception of the map of the county of Cornwall, no county boundaries are shown. And in the case of Cornwall, the traditional and modern counties are coterminous. — ras52 11:28, 7 November 2007 (UTC) reply
I reckon he's talking about the Teddybear's head; he doesn't want the blood vessels showing. ( Sarah777 20:06, 7 November 2007 (UTC)) reply
100% correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vintagekits ( talk • contribs) 20:35, 7 November 2007 (UTC) reply
And for those of us who speak English…? — ras52 21:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Proposal to cool off

I think this mediation is kind of going in the wrong direction. Everybody needs to cool off a little bit. I propose a two day break from editing anything related to this dispute. From there we need to go on without any more attacks or incivility. I strongly request that the spokespeople for each party be responsible for the vast majority of this discussion. I want to get this back on track. -- דניאל - Danth eman531 02:28, 1 November 2007 (UTC) reply

I think this mediation has come as far as it going to, the arbcom has already ruled on the issue of reliable sources, and as Astrotrain has failed to provide any then there isn't any point in continuing any further. The only reliable sources support the use of the Banner only in the contexts I give.
  • a) For historical and political topics and templates on Northern Ireland of the period 1921-1972 (government use)
  • b) For N.I. sport-related topics and templates (the only context in which this flag remains in semi-official use)
  • c) For Unionist/ Loyalist (never Republican/ Nationalist) topics and templates from 1921 onward (unofficial use)

Outside of these the Ulster banner cannot be used.-- Padraig 11:23, 1 November 2007 (UTC) reply

I agree, outside of these either the NI assembly logo or the outline of Northern Ireland should be used. A very fair proposal Padraig.-- Vintagekits 11:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC) reply


Given the edit wars are continuing on the flag pages, and Padraig and VK have received official warnings on their behaviour, perhaps it is time for them to consider compromising to reach an agreement, rather than entrenching their positions further? Astrotrain 13:15, 4 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Actually it was yourself and Padraig that got a "fair warning". Additionally I agree with you that we should be "consider compromising" - it is outlined above. Thats as fair as it gets imo. Padraig has bent over backwards to accommodate your, what I consider OR, position in an attempt to put an end to it.-- Vintagekits 13:39, 4 November 2007 (UTC) reply
I didn't receive any warring, as I have not edited that page. I did propose a compromise arrangement on the talk page to stop the edit warring, which was rejected by Padraig who then continued to edit war on the issue. You, I believe have edit warred on flags at a boxing article, and were given a warning by Rockpocket (given you are already on probabtion). Astrotrain 13:49, 4 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Astrotrain stop making false allegations I have received no such offical warning, and I have not been involved in any edit warring, I am sick of your attempts to smear me throughout this mediation, I have giving you a compromise, and there no other circumstances that the Ulster Banner can be used. Remember this your the one that wants to use the banner outside these contexts, therefore it down to you to support its use with WP:RS Yet you fail to do so.-- Padraig 13:25, 4 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Per Talk:Northern Ireland, the admin SirFozzie placed this warning for you [54]. I am not trying to smear you, I am pointing out that your failure to compromise in this mediation is holding the process up. Astrotrain 13:30, 4 November 2007 (UTC) reply
He placed a notice of fair notice, after I made one revert of another one of your side pov pushing, one revert is not edit warring, he also placed a similar warning on that user which is what the admins are supposed to do. As for my failure to compromise in this mediation, you have a strange notion of what that word means, it dosen't mean I agree to give you the right to ignore all rules and use the banner anywhere in wikipedia, when you can't support its use with sources.-- Padraig 13:42, 4 November 2007 (UTC) reply
  • with regards to point b) my only issue with this is that it should be limited to sports that actually use the Ulster banner and should not be used in areas or for sports that dont used the Ulster banner - such as Gaelic football, hurling and boxing.-- Vintagekits 13:47, 4 November 2007 (UTC) reply
That is the case its use is limited to when the banner is actually used ie: Commonweath games and international football where they play as a team not in other sports where the banner is not used.-- Padraig 13:53, 4 November 2007 (UTC) reply
I think the Ulster banner is also used in netball and hockey, not 100% sure on that, the point I am making is that it could/should also be used for sports where it is shown that its respective national sporting organisation uses the UB, outwith the the Commonwealth Games.-- Vintagekits 13:58, 4 November 2007 (UTC) reply
It would include any sport that uses it when playing as a National team.-- Padraig 14:03, 4 November 2007 (UTC) reply
This report details use in sport of flags in Nortern Ireland.-- Padraig 14:19, 4 November 2007 (UTC) reply
You can't make a blanket statement about boxing, as it is a Commonwealth Games sport. For those results (such as Boxing at the 2006 Commonwealth Games, assuming this work-in-progress article is finished someday...) the UB is appropriate. See this official results page as an outside source that also uses the UB as a flag icon for a boxer.
As for netball, Northern Ireland certainly has it's own team, distinct from the Republic of Ireland and from England, Scotland and Wales. See the IFNA website for a source for that. I haven't dug up any external sources that distinctly show the flag, but Wikipedia editors who have written netball articles have been using the UB, such as within 2003 Netball World Championships and IFNA World Rankings.
As for GAA sports such as Gaelic football and hurling, my limited understanding is that pretty much nobody else in the world plays those sports, so flag icons would not be an issue, would they? I see the four province flags used in articles like Interprovincial Championship, so would that mean that if someone wanted to add flag icons to the tournament brackets on pages like Interprovincial Championship 2006, they would use {{ flagicon|Ulster}}, {{ flagicon|Connacht}}, etc.?
Andrwsc 17:25, 5 November 2007 (UTC) reply
  • Actually I have played competative Gaelic football on three contenants and five countries so your asertion is incorrect. You are also incorrect with regards boxing, the only time the Ulster banner is used in a boxing context is during the Commonwealth Games - I have no problem with the Ulster Banner being used in that context, infact I added it to the Neil Sinclair and Wayne McCullough. However outside of that all boxing on the island of Ireland is controlled by a the IABA at amateur level and the BUI at professional level - both fight uinder the Irish tricolor. -- Vintagekits 19:28, 5 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Ok, I haven't seen any GAA-related articles on Wikipedia other than Irish-only tournaments, but it sounds like the possibility exists for some international Gaelic sport articles to be written, so it would make sense to mention something in the policy.
As for boxing, I am not incorrect. You say "the only time the Ulster banner is used in a boxing context is during the Commonwealth Games", which is pretty much the same thing I said! I repeat my point above: First, you originally stated that the UB "should not be used in areas or for sports that dont used the Ulster banner - such as Gaelic football, hurling and boxing". I then objected to your unconditional inclusion of boxing by saying "You can't make a blanket statement about boxing, as it is a Commonwealth Games sport.". You then agreed with me but said I was incorrect. Consider me puzzled. Andrwsc 19:45, 5 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Its played everywhere!. Anyway, its appears we argee that the only time the UB should be used for boxing is for the Commonwealth Games.-- Vintagekits 19:53, 5 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Yeah, I have been browsing through Category:Gaelic Athletic Association competitions, but so far, every competition I've seen is between clubs representing counties, cities, etc., not of national representation. Therefore, I haven't seen any instance of any flag icon usage on those articles, nor do I think there is likely to be any.
And yeah, we agree on boxing! ;) Andrwsc 20:06, 5 November 2007 (UTC) reply
One more think (for Padraig) — I'm not sure if you meant field hockey or ice hockey when you mentioned "hockey", but my understanding is that both are all-Ireland teams. Certainly we have a unique flag for the field hockey team, and the Wikipedia:WikiProject Ice Hockey people have settled on the generic shamrock icon for the ice hockey team. The following templates are used: {{ fh|Ireland}} →   Ireland and {{ ih|Ireland}} →   Ireland
Andrwsc, The mention of hockey and netball wasn't by me.-- Padraig 19:11, 5 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Oh, sorry, my mistake! I missed the correct attribution in the exchange between you two. My comments still hold.  ;) Andrwsc 19:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Restarting the mediation

This mediation seems to have completely stalled, with all parties gone AWOL. Before that, I don't think any movement by either side had taken place. I'd like to re-start the discussion, in hopes of continuing the mediation process and moving towards a lasting resolution.

By following and participating in this seemingly endless debate, two things have become clear for me:

  1. Much of the debate is focused on the wrong issue. As I pointed out above, instead of arguing about the status of the Ulster Banner, we should instead be working on the best way for Wikipedia to represent the flag, consistent with its status. There should be no debate that the flag does not legally represent Northern Ireland, nor should there be any debate that there is a certain amount of current usage by reputable organizations. We need a consistent, unambiguous, encyclopedic way in which to reconcile these two points of view as presented in Wikipedia articles.
  2. It is impossible to think that a single, concise guideline is going to cover all potential instances of flag image usage. Even Padraig's three point summary above is not comprehensive enough to serve as a complete guideline for us. I think something much more detailed than that is necessary.

On one extreme, you have some editors who interpret the current Ulster Banner status to mean that it can be used in any context that editors have been using the flags of England, Scotland and Wales. On the other end, you have editors who only feel it should be used in certain sporting and historical contexts, and absolutely nowhere else. I believe that the best chance we have of resolving this mediation is a position somewhere in the middle, but much closer to the "less usage" end of that spectrum.

With a good faith attempt to reach a compromise solution, I present the following. The intent is that we should be working towards a complete guideline page that can be used to address any future conflict. It would be "enforceable" to the same degree as any other page in Category:Wikipedia style guidelines. Clearly, all the edit-warring on so many articles and templates is harmful to the encyclopedia, and having some firm guidelines ought to reduce that significantly.

Broadly speaking, there are two or three ways in which flag images are used on Wikipedia:

  1. As icon images (e.g. 22 pixels wide), almost always rendered by the templates used in the Category:Flag template system, such as {{ flagicon}} and {{ fb}}. These flag images are almost always used to visually "tag" an adjacent wikilink or text phrase. The context of the flag is almost always implied, as there is never a caption to these icon images.
  2. As thumbnail or gallery images (e.g. 100-180 pixel width), either as standalone images to the left or right of article prose text, or within a table or infobox. These instances have the advantage of being able to have an accompanying caption or explanatory text, including wikilinks to relevant articles.
  3. As a "hybrid" of these first two, flag images are frequently used in a variety of templates such as navigation boxes. Sometimes they are icon size (and the flagicon templates are used) and sometimes they are a bit bigger (e.g. 45-60 pixels is not uncommon). Depending on the template layout, there may be a way to include a caption or explanatory text.

I think that these specific use cases must be an integral part of the Ulster Banner usage guidelines. For example, I would say that, with some exceptions described later, the Ulster Banner should not be used in any context where the reader is not notified of the flag's status by a caption or other explanatory text. Most of the exceptions are flag icon usage for accepted sport contexts, such as to identify the Northern Ireland national football team, or individual players, coaches, and managers representing that team. That means that most other typical flag icon uses should be avoided.

Another broad comment I would like to make is with respect to the "weight" that should be given to sport-related usage of the flag. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Undue weight says that we should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. So how prominent is sport-related usage? I assert that it is significant enough to be mentioned in several general locations, especially since Northern Ireland is not a sovereign nation by itself. There are not a lot of circumstances by which a sub-national entity would be represented by a flag, but sport usage seems to be the most common of those instances.

Flag icon usage

To identify sports teams or individual athletes

It is acceptable to use the Ulster Banner to identify sports teams where Northern Ireland competes as a distinct team, separate from England, Scotland, Wales and perhaps the Republic of Ireland, or to identify individual athletes from Northern Ireland in sports where each of the four UK constituent countries are seperated. The best example of this is the Northern Ireland national football team, and many football articles use Template:Fb for the following:

{{fb|Northern Ireland}} or {{fb|NIR}} →   Northern Ireland

Another common example is the Commonwealth Games team. For example, the flag appears next to Wayne McCullough's name on Boxing at the 1990 Commonwealth Games. On the Wayne McCullough article itself, the flag is used in the medal infobox to state that he competed for Northern Ireland at those Games. This medal box is unusual (and interesting) because it also shows that he competed for Ireland instead of Great Britain at the Olympics.

The sports and games in which Northern Ireland competes as a team, or which individual competitors are shown as representing one of the four UK constituent countries, are:

There are several sports for which all Ireland teams compete. For those sports, it is inappropriate to use either the Ulster Banner or the Irish Tricolour to represent the team. Alternate flags are used as follows:

To identify cities, towns, or other geographic locations

The Ulster Banner should not be used to identify locations in Northern Ireland, or the country itself, such as in the following instances:

To identify location of origin

The Ulster Banner should not be used to identify Northern Ireland as the location of origin in the following instances:

Comment I see no problem with the above comments.-- Padraig ( talk) 05:35, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Flag thumbnail usage

General articles

The Union Flag is the official flag used by the government to represent Northern Ireland. The former (1953–1972) official flag, the Ulster Banner, continues to be used by groups (such as some sports teams) representing the territory in an unofficial manner (see Northern Ireland flags issue).
Infobox on main Northern Ireland article
I believe that the standard flag section of the infobox has to include the Ulster Banner. It is not an obscure flag — it is too commonly known to be excluded from the standard infobox format. I think it is an example of the principle of least astonishment, as I believe the majority of Wikipedia readers will expect to see it in the infobox. However, the Union Flag must take precedence, and I think that it is absolutely necessary to include a rather descriptive explanatory caption. I note that the standard format for these infoboxes is to simply have a one-word caption (i.e. Flag), so this caption would certainly stand out as different and be noticed by the average reader — and likely draw readers to the flags issue article, which is precisely what should happen. This presentation has the most encyclopedic value while being respectful to the flag's status.
Comment Not acceptable, the Ulster Banner should not appear in the infobox of the Main article of Northern Ireland, what the majority of wikipedia readers expect is that wikipedia presents fact, and it is the purpose of wikipeadia to educate readers of those facts, so showing a flag that has no status is misleading. The current infobox is factural and appropiate in this case.-- Padraig ( talk) 06:14, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Agree- It is necessary to show both flags in the infobox given the UF is used officially and the UB unofficially. Astrotrain ( talk) 11:25, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Astrotrain it is not used un-officially as it was never official to start with.-- Padraig ( talk) 11:46, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Disagree - neither of those flags are the flag of Northern Ireland so neither should be used.-- Vintagekits ( talk) 14:09, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply

It is not a case of what you may like or not like, that is not the issue here, it is about wikipedia being factural and the information it presents and the content is current and appropiate, supported by WP:RS and WP:V. All of the WP:OR will not change that.-- Domer48 ( talk) 13:12, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Portal:Northern Ireland
I thought that this edit of Portal:Northern Ireland/Intro was appropriate, but the flag has since been removed.
United Kingdom
The "Symbols" section is currently being edit-warred, apparently in disregard for this mediation. I think that the Ulster Banner should be illustrated in this section, as there is opportunity for a proper caption. I think the biggest problem with this section has been with respect to the formatting — the flags ought to be larger than icon size, and the disclaimer about the Ulster Banner ought to be more closely linked to that image.
Comment Not acceptable as for above, if any flag image is used it has to be the Union Flag.-- Padraig ( talk) 06:14, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Agree- It is necessary to show the Northern Ireland flag and then note its status in the past and today. No problem with those proposals Astrotrain ( talk) 11:25, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply
So you agree that the Union Flag if any be used in this case.-- Padraig ( talk) 11:49, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Ireland
Currently shows a thumbnail with the caption The Ulster Banner, used as the flag of the former Government of Northern Ireland 1953 - 1972, now unofficially used by some sporting organisations to represent the area, some Unionist controlled local authorities and Loyalists. I think this is appropriate.

Articles specifically about flags

The Ulster Banner can (and should) be included in articles whose main subject(s) are flags. In each case, the context must be provided through appropriate captions and prose, and due weight must be given by not over-emphasizing or under-emphasizing the status.

Ulster Banner
Currently suitable.
Northern Ireland flags issue
Currently suitable. I believe the correct weight is applied to every image shown in that article.
Flag of Northern Ireland
Currently suitable. The Union Flag appears first, at larger size.
List of British flags
Currently problematic. The Ulster Banner is marginalized by its placement far down the page, after about a hundred other flags. It needs to be placed in the "Northern Ireland" section near the top, with an appropriate caption.
Comment I have suggested that the historical section be moved to closer to the top of the article, but the Ulster Banner should not be in the current Northern Ireland section.-- Padraig ( talk) 06:14, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Agreed Astrotrain ( talk) 11:28, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply
List of Northern Irish flags
Currently problematic, as the Ulster Banner is marginalized by its inclusion in the "Others" section, as a peer of flags such as the Irish Tricolour and the Starry Plough flag. Suggest its placement alone in a second section between the current "Official Flags" and "Others" sections to give it due weight.
Comment The flag was in a historical section, but due to edit warring by editors trying to include it as a current flag it was moved into the Other section, I think this was a good compromise, which ended the edit warring.-- Padraig ( talk) 06:14, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply
It was included in a "Unofficial" section which is appropiate- this should be restored per your suggestion. Astrotrain ( talk) 11:28, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Astrotrain, it was never official to start with, so an un-official section is not appropiate, its historical.-- Padraig ( talk) 11:44, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply

It is not a case of what you may like or not like, that is not the issue here, it is about wikipedia being factural and the information it presents and the content is current and appropiate, supported by WP:RS and WP:V. All of the WP:OR will not change that.-- Domer48 ( talk) 13:14, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Flag of Ireland, by Template:IrishFlags
I don't think the inclusion of the Ulster Banner is strictly necessary here, but it's current inclusion is well-explained and suitable.
Template:UKFlags
This template is intended as a navigation aid for the flag articles themselves, so the use of flag icons is appropriate and not just decorative. I believe the current version is flawed in that it portrays the Ulster Banner as historical only, which gives less than due weight to the current unofficial usage. There is room for a small caption in this navbox, so I think the following is appropriate:
Comment I suggested a compromise earlier on this, the version you are showing is not acceptable, the Ulster Banner is historical in this context.-- Padraig ( talk) 06:14, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Agreed- this a good compromise Astrotrain ( talk) 11:29, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply

There are also several gallery articles whose sole purpose in displaying flags is for the study of vexillology. The Ulster Banner can be used on those pages without the need for a detailed caption. Examples are Gallery of flags with crosses and Gallery of flags by similarity.

Navigation box usage

Use of the Ulster Banner in navigation box templates should be avoided, or at least strictly limited to navboxes whose main topic is appropriate for that flag (such as Template:NIgov 22-72 or Template:Football in Northern Ireland).

United Kingdom topics

Especially problematic are navboxes that span UK-wide topics and for which a grouping by constituent country is desired. In those cases, it is strongly recommended to use map images instead of flag images, or remove images altogether. It is undesirable to use flag images for England, Wales and Scotland but use a non-flag image for Northern Ireland.

Template:Lists of Marilyns
This template was updated by User:Ras52 to use map icons instead of flags, and the response has been overwhelmingly positive. This should be the model for navboxes of this type.
Template:UK cities
I updated this template a couple of weeks ago to a similar format, and so far, it has held up with no edit warring. The previous edit, using a group of four individual navboxes, was a horrid mess.
Template:British Isles
I think it looks bad with a green blob for Northern Ireland in place of a flag. I recommend removal of all flag icons. They are not needed for that template.
Template:Scouts UK Counties
Needs an update. The current version with flags (except for N.I.) is awkward.
Template:World Heritage Sites in the United Kingdom
Should be updated to use maps instead of flags.
Template:United Kingdom constituents and affiliations
Looks terrible with a blue blob next to Northern Ireland and flags for England, Scotland and Wales. Since there are no flags shown for any of the overseas territories and crown dependencies, I fail to see why any are really needed for the constituent countries. I recommend they all be removed.

Northern Ireland topics

The Ulster Banner can be used in navigation boxes for topics in which it is directly relevant, but avoided for all other situations. One of the map icons can be used if a decorative image is really desired.

Template:Subdivisions of Northern Ireland
Template:Northern Ireland topics
Template:NorthernIrishTowns
Template:Northern Irish roads
These four templates are examples of contemporary topics, so the use of a map icon is preferable and appropriate.
Template:Northern Ireland elections
No flag icons are really needed here, so the current version with no images at all is appropriate.
Template:Irish states since 1171
Uses the Ulster Banner to directly reference the 1922-1972 state, so is appropriate.
Template:NIgov 22-72
Template:NIPMs2
Template:Parliament of Northern Ireland
Template:Politics of Northern Ireland 1921-72
The topic of these four navboxes is the 1922-1972 goverment, so the Ulster Banner usage as a decoration is acceptable.
Template:Football in Northern Ireland
Use of the Ulster Banner for N.I. football is accepted, so the flag decoration in this navbox is fine.
Comment Not sure about this one the Ulster banner maybe used in international Football for Northern Ireland, but not sure if its appropiate for a template for football within the Northern leagues, as not all clubs or teams or fans of these teams would use it.-- Padraig ( talk) 06:32, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Template:IrishL
The topic of this navbox is Ulster Loyalism, so the use of the Ulster Banner is appropriate.
Template:Irish parliament houses
The usage in this template is limited to govt. houses of N.I. from 1922-1972, so it is appropriate.

Portals

Northern Ireland portal

Portal:Northern Ireland is linked from many categories and articles. The Ulster Banner should not be used as a decorative image for these links. Either use the standard portal icon (e.g. {{portal|Northern Ireland}}) or a map icon (e.g. {{portal|Northern Ireland|Northern Ireland outline in blue.svg}}), as shown on the right.

On portal pages themselves, there is usually a "Related portals" section, and these have usually used flags for country-related portals. For UK and Ireland-related portals, the use of map images instead of flags (e.g. Portal:United Kingdom/Subportals) is preferred to avoid any flag issues.

Stub templates

The Ulster Banner must not be used as an image for stub templates (e.g. Template:NorthernIreland-bio-stub). The lone current exception is for N.I. football player stubs, where the Ulster Banner is superimposed over a football image in Template:NorthernIreland-footy-bio-stub.

Userboxes and user pages

Wikipedia:Userboxes states that userboxes are generally created as templates and transcluded onto userpages, although their markup may be substituted directly onto userpages instead. Therefore, since these templates are not part of the encyclopedia and not seen in the main article space, and since any user can simply put whatever markup they desire onto their own userpages, there should be no edit warring over templates such as Template:User NI and Template:User Visit NIreland.

Comments

As you can tell, I have spent a lot of time surveying the current state of Wikipedia with respect to Northern Ireland flag usage, and I honestly believe that my suggestions here are an appropriate compromise between the two prevailing opinions. I can foresee some things above that Astrotrain et. al. will not like, and some things that Padraig et. al. will not like, but that may be the sign of a successful proposal. Both sides must move a bit if we are to resolve this dispute. Regards, Andrwsc ( talk) 00:18, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Comment I have added comments to some of your suggestions above. As for what I may like or not like, that is not the issue here for me, it is about wikipedia being factural in the information it presents and that content is current and appropiate supported by WP:RS.-- Padraig ( talk) 06:26, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Thanks Andrwsc, that is very useful. These are good compromise arrangements, which restrict uses of the flag to appropiate pages, and ensures full and sourced explanations of use are given. I am prepared to agree with your proposals as presented here in the interests of ending this dispute. Astrotrain ( talk) 11:32, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Of course you would agree with them, you and Andrwsc are preaching from the same hymn book on this issue, but as I made clear above in my comments the proposals are not acceptable.-- Padraig ( talk) 11:40, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply

It is not a case of what you may like or not like, that is not the issue here, it is about wikipedia being factural and the information it presents and the content is current and appropiate, supported by WP:RS and WP:V. All of the WP:OR will not change that. -- Domer48 ( talk) 13:10, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Comment Those suggestions were actually pretty useful, & I for one agree with most of them. I could even go with the proposals for the Infobox on main Northern Ireland article(provided there were some modifications to the explanatory text). The only thing that was way off target were the suggestions for the infoboxes— far too wordy and, as you pointed out before yet fail to see here, it gives undue weight to an unoffical flag. Fennessy ( talk) 16:00, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Comment I would 100% agree with what Padraig has said above in his comments beneath the sections he finds unacceptable. BigDunc ( talk) 16:12, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Comment I am extremely disappointed to see the same old rhetoric repeated again in response to my proposal, but I guess I should not be surprised. It is especially irritating to see the usual wiki-lawyering about WP:RS, WP:V and WP:OR, as they are grossly misapplied to this discussion. For example, [55] and [56] are clear, verifiable, reliable sources. So please, can we stop the "policy wars" now?

As I explained at the start of my essay, I think the two critical discussions we need to have are:

  1. What is the most logical, encyclopedic way for Wikipedia to represent the flag, consistent with its status?
    My proposal: do not use the flag image in any context where an appropriate explanatory caption cannot be provided, except for uncontroversial instances, typically related to selected sports and to the 1922-1972 government.
  2. Based on the amount of sport-related usage, how much "due weight" should be given to the flag in "general purpose" articles?
    My position: Since Northern Ireland is not an independent sovereign state, there are relatively few instances where a unique flag would be used. I assert that most of the familiarity with the Ulster Banner by the "general public" is from sport-related instances — what they see on television, for example. Therefore, that familiarity necessitates a higher amount of weight than is presently given on several articles.

Let's focus the discussion here. Regressing back to the usual tired arguments is uninspiring and uncooperative. Andrwsc ( talk) 17:28, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Andrwsc, the two links you provide above are to sport usage which is not disputed, but your suggesting it should be used in contexts such as the infobox of the main Northern Ireland article and other similar uses, when sources provided clearly show this is inappropiate and the flag should not be used. As for tired old agruements, sorry but there is no substitute for fact. On the question of what is the most logical, encyclopedic way for Wikipedia to represent the flag, it is currently shown in its proper context and the issue is explained in the Northern Ireland flag issue article, I don't see how else we deal with it except in a factual manner which is supported by WP:RS as it is now.-- Padraig ( talk) 17:59, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply
I don't follow your logic about the infobox, that sources provided clearly show this is inappropiate and the flag should not be used. How can any external source mandate the presentation style of a Wikipedia article? If anything, I would say that this external source is an argument that a thumbnail of the Ulster Banner ought to appear at the top of our main article on Northern Ireland.
And once again, I think your reference to WP:RS to justify "factual manner" is a red herring application of policy. It is undisputed fact that the Ulster Banner has no current legal status. It is also undisputed fact that the flag is currently used regularly by several reputable organizations. I repeat: the issue for us in this mediation is not to ascertain the facts around the flag, but to decide upon what is the best presentation guideline for this encyclopedia. Please understand the distinction. Andrwsc ( talk) 18:13, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply
This makes it very clear The Union Flags and flags of the United Kingdom, issued by the British Parliaments, Parliament and Constitution Centre which is a more reliable source then a outdated EB article, this clearly states what each sub-nation of the UK flags are, the English Scottish and Welsh flags are recognised as National Flags, not in the case of Northern Ireland were the only recognised flag is the Union Flag. So the issue is why should a historic banner used by a defunct government 35yrs ago be used to represent Northern Ireland today, the current arrangement is factural, why should we alter that to introduce POV.-- Padraig ( talk) 18:45, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Padraig, if I assume good faith, I would have to conclude that you are really dense and can't understand my point. If I don't assume good faith, I would conclude that you are intentionally obscuring the issue by bringing this legal argument back into the discussion. I think I'll assume you are intelligent. Therefore, I will answer your rhetorical question: the reason why a historic banner used by a defunct government 35yrs ago be used to represent Northern Ireland today is that it is not just a "historic banner". It is clearly also an unofficial flag used by several reputable organizations used to represent Northern Ireland today. I believe you know this very well, but will not admit to it in these discussions. I repeat again: let's stop rehashing the legal positions. They are understood and accepted. Instead let's focus our energy on determining how to judge how much "due weight" to apply to the unofficial flag usage. Andrwsc ( talk) 18:57, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Andrwsc ( talk) please read WP:NPA it is extremly unhelpful and doesn't endear your argument to other editors. BigDunc ( talk) 21:21, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Yes, I realize I was wandering into incivil territory with that message, and as an experienced administrator, I am well aware of our policies. Padraig, my apologies are extended if you were offended by my comments. But my frustration remains. At no point did I declare that Brittanica was a reliable source claiming that the Ulster Banner was an official flag (and in fact, on their website if you click on the thumbnail you see a comment that it is unofficial!), and at no point did I ever dispute the UK government policy on official flag usage. I don't know how many times I have to say that; there is no dispute whatsoever about the non-legal status of that flag! I keep trying to steer this discussion towards what I believe is the real salient point — how do we assess the "due weight" to be accorded the unofficial usage of the Ulster Banner — and Padraig consistently responds with tangential comments about the non-legal status of the flag. Either that is unintentional because of a lack of understanding of my comments, or it is intentional because he is attempting to obscure the issue. Andrwsc ( talk) 21:42, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Yeah really lets not start with underhand & snide personal attacks Andrwsc, considering how constructive your proposals have been. Plus your really doing the exact same thing, constantly arguing that the sports usage justifies any & all usage of the Ulster banner. The only difference is that the government of the United kingdom is a much more legitimate source than FIFA. Fennessy ( talk) 21:54, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Did you even read my proposal? Holy cow, I am advocating widespread removal of the Ulster Banner from many identified inappropriate instances, and you think that I am constantly arguing that the sports usage justifies any & all usage?!? Sheesh.
I'll restate my position another way: I assert that in the "general public", the Ulster Banner is perceived as the flag of Northern Ireland, and that perception comes primarily from sport-related usage, especially since that is the most commonly visible flag usage for this sub-national entity. Our job as editors of Wikipedia is to educate, and the best way we can do that is not to hide the flag from places where people are likely to expect to see a flag, but to show them the two flags and to direct them to the articles we've written about the flag issue. I truly believe that option has the most encyclopedic value.
If you re-read my whole proposal one more time, I think you'll see that there is only a single place where I recommend we add the flag (where it is currently missing). There are three or four places where I think we should change the position and/or caption of the flag within the article or template where it is already shown. Every other example I cite is either a restatement of a currently accepted usage instance, or a recommendation of removal.
Please don't cast me into the same bucket as the "unionist editors". I am neither Irish or British (or American, if that is your next guess). I am an outsider who is honestly trying to find a compromise that will end the disruptive politically-motivated edit warring that has raged for so long on this issue. Andrwsc ( talk) 22:23, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply
I agree we should educate people through our role as contributors to wikipedia, therefore I fail to see how that can be done by presenting a flagicon as the flag of Northern Ireland, when it never had that status even during the period 1953-1972, nor do I see the value of showing the flag and then including a footnote explaining that although we are showing this image it is not Northern Ireland flag. You ask how much weight we should give on account of its use in sport, I would say that outside of articles about sport where the Ulster Banner is actualy use, none, the international organising committees of the Commonwealth game and the international football leagues don't decide which flag to use for each national team, they use the image supplied by each local national organising committee, therefore their use of any flag image conveys no status or judgement on it.-- Padraig ( talk) 23:23, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply


I think your proposals are well researched and very helpful. It's good to get input from a genuine outsider, and by looking at your contributions, someone with an expert knowlegde of flags. The proposals will ensure the edit warring ends (which I note is still continuing even today...) and ultimately improve the Wikipedia project Astrotrain ( talk) 22:29, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply
About whom are you refering when you say that in the "general public", the Ulster Banner is perceived as the flag of Northern Ireland and if Our job as editors of Wikipedia is to educate then where is your proposal to change the name of this flag to the Ulster Banner as it is NOT the Flag Of Northern Ireland. BigDunc ( talk) 22:38, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply
My comment about the "general public" is personal perception. I'm a pretty smart guy, but I didn't realize that it did not have the same legal status as the flags of England, Scotland and Wales until I read about it on Wikipedia. I'm assuming that there are many more people like me. I don't understand your second question. Where specifically do we need to "change the name"? The article about the flag is already at Ulster Banner. Lastly, if you feel that there are things missing from my proposal, feel free to add them, but it's rather petty to criticize me for not thinking of everything, isn't it? Andrwsc ( talk) 22:54, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply
I think he means that Image:Flag_of_Northern_Ireland.svg should be moved to Image:Ulster_Banner.svg. If so, I think this would be an excellent idea, although the number of uses means it would be rather a major job. (As I understand it, redirects don't work with images inherited from Commons, though I would welcome correcting if I'm wrong.) — ras52 ( talk) 23:03, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Ah, ok. Well, as you point out, that is an issue for Commons, not for en.wiki, so it is outside of the scope of this mediation. If that image was placed under a new name, a single edit to Template:Country data Northern Ireland would take care of the vast majority of image transclusions on en.wiki, so it is not as unmanageable as you might think. I bet I could fix it all in an hour's work. Andrwsc ( talk) 23:14, 27 November 2007 (UTC) reply
I have never seen the term "Ulster Banner" used outside Wikipedia (Red Hand flag or Ulster flag is sometimes used). Britannica, World Flag Database and Flags of the World all use "Flag of Northern Ireland". Astrotrain ( talk) 09:28, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Which just goes to show how reliable the information on those sites is, and your knowledge of the issue.-- Padraig ( talk) 09:41, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply

The information we presents and the content must be supported by WP:RS and WP:V. All of the WP:OR will not change that.-- Domer48 ( talk) 09:07, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply

The plain and simple fact of the matter is that this flag is not the flag of Northern Ireland and it's use as it's flag is incorrect. So what if FIFA and UEFA use it, it is not recognised as such by any governments lets present facts. BigDunc ( talk) 10:36, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply
You are both confused about what the word "fact" means. It is a fact that several organizations use the Ulster Banner to represent Northern Ireland. This is clearly verifiable, so WP:V, WP:RS, etc. are all easily met. Now, it may not be "correct" of those organizations to represent it as the flag of Northern Ireland, but that is a different point. It is still factual that they incorrectly do so! And that makes it important for Wikipedia to illustrate what is commonly seen in the "real world". A properly sourced statement like the following is precisely the kind of thing we should be saying:
The Ulster Banner has no official status in Northern Ireland and is not permitted to be flown from government buildings. [8] However, several sporting organizations such as FIFA [9] and media organizations such as ESPN [10] commonly use the flag to represent teams and athletes from Northern Ireland.
  1. ^ FIFA- Northern Ireland
  2. ^ UEFA- Northern Ireland
  3. ^ Commonwealth Games- Northern Ireland
  4. ^ http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200607/ldhansrd/text/70118w0002.htm
  5. ^ FIFA- Northern Ireland
  6. ^ UEFA- Northern Ireland
  7. ^ Commonwealth Games- Northern Ireland
  8. ^ Williams, Kevin. "The Union Flag and Flags of the United Kingdom" (PDF). House of Commons Library. pp. p. 7. Retrieved 2007-11-28. {{ cite web}}: |pages= has extra text ( help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) ( help)
  9. ^ "Northern Ireland at FIFA.com". FIFA. Retrieved 2007-11-28.
  10. ^ "ESPN.com - GOLF - Darren Clarke - Player Card". ESPN Internet Ventures. Retrieved 2007-11-28.
Here's a (possibly imperfect) analogy. The word "lite" is not "correct" English, yet it appears in the Oxford English Dictionary. That doesn't make it any more correct—but it does document the usage of that improper word in a respected reference book. Andrwsc ( talk) 19:14, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Andrwsc, you keep going back to its use in sport this is not disputed. What is disputed is attempts to protray the Ulster Banner as the flag of Northern Ireland today, which it is not.-- Padraig ( talk) 19:57, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply
It may not be disputed by you, Padraig, but it certainly appears to be disputed by (at least) Domer48 and BigDunc. Andrwsc ( talk) 20:05, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply
I have not seen any comment from either of them that disputes it use in some sports. They dispute your attempt to justify the use of the Ulster Banner in the likes of the infobox on the Northern Ireland article based on minority use in some sports, which I dispute as well.-- Padraig ( talk) 20:12, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply
And where did I say that I dispute the fact that it is used in sport to represent Northern Ireland? I dont belive I have. I don't have an objection to it being used to represent the National team of NI in a sporting context. And what is this rubbish about 'lite' and 'correct' I would say Definetly imperfect. Lite is a word FACT, UB flag of NI Definetly not FACT. BigDunc ( talk) 20:19, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Thanks Pádraig, for clearly stating my position. The Ulster Banner as the flag of Northern Ireland, no it's not! FACT. -- Domer48 ( talk) 20:34, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Ok, now you two are being a bit clearer! I am in full agreement with you on this point—the Ulster Banner is not the flag of Northern Ireland. But earlier on, when Domer48 alleged WP:RS, WP:V and WP:OR policy violations and BigDunc stated So what if FIFA and UEFA use it, it is not recognised as such by any governments lets present facts, you are replying to me with tangential comments that create confusion. Those comments implied to me that you still deny the fact that the Ulster Banner is currently used by several reputable organizations to represent Northern Ireland. These two facts are not contradictory.
In effect, I think the infobox ought to convey this message (informally stated): "here is the only official flag for Northern Ireland, and here is a flag that is commonly, yet incorrectly, used to represent Northern Ireland". I don't think there is anything misleading about that, so it would not imply any "officialness" upon the flag just because FIFA, ESPN. et. al. get it wrong. As I've pointed out before, I believe that kind of presentation would lead more people to the flags issue article and educate them about the irregular usage by all those organizations, which should be precisely the result we are trying to achieve!
What could be better than a caption in the infobox that says "hey, this image is NOT the flag of Northern Ireland, despite what you may have seen elsewhere"? I don't think that the current absence of all images is as effective in conveying that message. Andrwsc ( talk) 20:46, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply

So why should we portray something that is not fact. Would an empty space not have the same result of "hey I wonder what the Flag Of Northern Ireland is? BigDunc ( talk) 20:54, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Please re-read what I have written over and over again. We would be portraying something that IS a fact. Specifically, it is a fact that the Ulster Banner is used by many well-known organizations to represent Northern Ireland, despite it's non-legal status. And no, I don't think an empty space is useful. Like me, surely you've also seen a large number of good-faith edits by people who thought that it was ok to use that flag icon for Northern Ireland in articles about islands, musical groups, etc. Surely it would help educate them to see a bold statement that "this image is actually NOT the flag of Northern Ireland". Andrwsc ( talk) 21:09, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Andrwsc, the Infobox on the Northern Ireland article if it showed any flag would have to be only the Union Flag, but not the Ulster Banner beside it with a footnote. But what your seem to have failed to grasp is they don't want the Union Flag in the infobox, they want the Ulster Banner shown on its own or with the former coat of arms beside it, which is not acceptable and WP:OR. Also if we did allow it to happen, it would lead to edit wars all over WP as they would then want the Ulster Banner used in all article and templates regarding Northern Ireland, and they would justify that based on it being in the infobox on the Northern Ireland article which they would claim as consensus for it use elsewhere. So its not going to happen the articles as they stand are factual and supported by WP:RS which they can't dispute.-- Padraig ( talk) 21:14, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply
The stated intention near the top of my proposal is to have us arrive at a solution with this mediation which would be captured in something like Wikipedia:Northern Ireland flag usage, as part of the set of guidelines in Category:Wikipedia style guidelines. I'm not sure who "they" are, but if the guideline page stated that the Union Flag must be in the infobox, then any editor would have to abide by that guideline. Any edit-warring can be instantly dealt with. The endless debate must come to an end! I can certainly understand the "opening the can of worms" scenario you describe, which is precisely why I went to all that effort of looking at thousands of pages and developing a proposal as broad in scope as it is. The intent is to close any loophole before it opens. I encourage you to re-read my proposal, and I think you'll find that there are many, many more places in which I advocate removal of the Ulster Banner than adding it. I just happen to be passionate about the infobox on Northern Ireland because I think that is the biggest head-scratcher of the lot. Wikipedia readers expect to see a flag on the standard country infobox. So let's meet that expectation, but in a way which denies the official status of the flag as strongly as possible. I believe that a caption that says (informally) "this image is not the flag of Northern Ireland, despite what you might think" is stronger than what we have now, which is the absence of any image but with a caption that refers to both the Union Flag and the Ulster Banner. That's just goofy. Andrwsc ( talk) 21:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Agreed- the current situation on that article is not acceptable. The flag should be used in the infobox in Northern Ireland, the flag column in the UK article, on List of British flags for Northern Ireland, and on the UK flag template. This compromise position supported by consensus will solve the dispute and allow the guidelines proposed by Andrwsc to be implemented. Astrotrain ( talk) 22:09, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Astrotrain the current situation is fact supported by WP:RS, which you have failed to counteract, there is no compromise position, nor can any consensus be made that is against wikipedia policies, especially WP:RS.--22:50, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


Andrwsc, we both want a end to this, I have had over 9 months of debating this issue, but I will not agree with the Ulster banner being used in the infobox of the Northern ireland article, I would support the use of the Union Flag and beside that the current text used in the infobox, to explain the status and reason for the use of the Union Flag, but not with the Ulster Banner image included. I also fully support the idea of a guideline on the use of the Ulster banner that has its basis the compromise proposal I put forward at the start of this mediation on appropiate use of the Ulster Banner image.-- Padraig ( talk) 21:50, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply
I don't see any area in which you have made any actual compromises. It looks like your current position is unchanged from before the mediation started. As for the infobox, I concede that I think the Union Flag alone is still better than the captioned yet imageless infobox we have now, but I still think it gives less than due weight to the unofficial usage out there. Andrwsc ( talk) 22:06, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Andrwsc, we don't have to make any compromise, as the proposal I put forward covers all the legitimate uses that the Ulster Banner has, in some sport uses, the history and politics of Northern Ireland 1922-1972, Unionist and Loyalist articles and templates, outside of that it is not acceptable usage. On the Northern Ireland article the ulster banner is dealt with within the main article where the image is shown, that is all the due weight it deserves, also the link in the infobox explains the issue in detail.-- Padraig ( talk) 00:03, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply
I can't see any end to this as long as there is no movement towards a compromise. Padraig, why on earth did you agree to mediation if you were not willing to make any compromises? I fear this mediation has failed, and we will have to move to the next stronger step in dispute resolution. Andrwsc ( talk) 17:08, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Cant we put this bloody nonsense to bed. The Ulster Banner should be used for articles pertaining to the history and politics of Northern Ireland between 1922-1972, to Unionist and Loyalist articles and in certain specific sporting context - outside of that then it should not be used whatsoever and to do so breaks more wiki policies than even I am capable of doing.-- Vintagekits ( talk) 14:04, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply
I think my proposal is somewhat in alignment with this brief summary. The biggest remaining dispute is that I think the main Northern Ireland infobox needs to show the flag — along with a caption that mentions the 1922-1972 usage, unionist and loyalist usage, and sport usage — as I feel that those three instances, along with the awareness of the flag by the "general public" constitutes due weight for this approach. Omitting all flags from the infobox is either a) goofy, as we end up with a caption without an image, or b) political POV, by those who deny the legal existence of the territory and therefore deny any symbols to represent it (even including the official Union Flag). Andrwsc ( talk) 17:08, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Instead of repeatedly stating that there is an "awareness of the flag by the "general public"", why not provide evidence of that? I can only speak for myself here, but I lived in the UK my entire life up until a few years ago & didn't even realise the Ulster banner existed. It would be alot more productive to fact find rather than give opinions over & over, that plus I think the burden of proof is on the "to use it" side of the argument. Fennessy ( talk) 18:13, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply
(subthread de-indented) Yeah, I fully agree with you here, but I don't know how to measure that! It has bothered me that I have been projecting my own personal observations onto the "general public". I suppose I'm assuming that since I have recognized that as the flag of Northern Ireland for about 25 years (since I was in high school), and I have never set foot in Northern Ireland, that there must be lots of other people like me who are distantly removed from the area and yet still recognize that flag. On the other hand, I'm pretty bright and have always been a geography buff (and flags are semi-related to knowledge of geography), and I follow several sports in which the flag is frequently seen (football and golf), so perhaps my observations are atypical. How can I tell? Certainly the "Google test" is oft-used on Wikipedia, so maybe we could try that. I would say that the best comparison for Northern Ireland in such a test would be Wales. I don't think you could compare Northern Ireland to any sovereign nation, nor to any other type of second-level administrative unit (i.e. US state, region of France, etc.), and Wales is of similar population to Northern Ireland, so it is probably the best comparison of the other constituent countries. I'd really like to pursue this angle further, as I think it is key to resolving the dispute. How much due weight do we accord the Ulster Banner's actual (non-official) usage, and how do we measure it?. Andrwsc ( talk) 18:34, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Let google fight sort it out here lol BigDunc ( talk) 20:49, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Andrwsc ( talk) you can dabble in as much WP:OR as you wish. Just remember, when someone ask's what flag is the official flag of Northern Ireland the answer will still have to be it has not got one. -- Domer48 ( talk) 19:08, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Gosh, what a helpful comment! Thank you so much for your constructive contributions to this discussion! Andrwsc ( talk) 19:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Andrwsc, I think you believe use of the Ulster Banner is widespread in Northern Ireland, it isn't putting aside its sport use, the Ulster Banner is only used by a very small minority of the Unionist/Loyalist community, and they would be regarded as extremists within their own community, about two out of twenty-six local authorities use but these are also Loyalist strongholds so it could be said that the local councillors are playing the Orange card to appease their electorate. The vast majority of the Unionist population don't use the Ulster Banner and for them the Union Flag is the only flag of Northern Ireland.-- Padraig ( talk) 19:18, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Actually, from what I have learned in the past few months, I don't believe it is widespread in Northern Ireland. But I do believe it is reasonably well known outside of Northern Ireland. The articles we're talking about can't just cater to the needs of readers in Northern Ireland, the UK, or the Republic. It's not precisely a WP:BIAS problem, but I think you need to look at the wider picture. Andrwsc ( talk) 19:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Then don't you think it would be better for Wikipedia to inform those outside Northern Ireland that the Ulster Banner is not infact the Flag of Northern Ireland, and for that reason it shouldn't be used in the infobox, but the Union Flag should be along with the text explaining the status of the Ulster Banner. That in my opinion is best way way to deal with the misconception that many people hold of the Ulster Banner.-- Padraig ( talk) 19:46, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply
There is text to state that it is no longer the offical flag, however given its widespread and continuing use as a flag to represent Northern Ireland, it needs to be included in the infobox alongside the Union Flag. Astrotrain ( talk) 19:55, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Yes there is text to state it is not the Flag of Northern Ireland - it never was the official flag - the banner is also shown in the main boby of the article as well, but there is no reason why it should be shown in the infobox, and its not going to happen.-- Padraig ( talk) 20:02, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply
"its not going to happen"- well why are you here then? You obviously have no interest in reaching consensus here. Astrotrain ( talk) 20:05, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply
We are here to give you a chance to provide WP:RS to justify it use in the contexts you are wanting to use it, so far you have failed to do so. I am prepared to discuss the issue, but first you have to provide the sources, wanting to display the banner simply because you like it or it suits your POV is not good enough.-- Padraig ( talk)~~
That is nonsense- we are to reach a consensus on when to use the flag. Andrwsc has provided clear guidelines to follow, with appropiate sourced text. There is consensus now to implement these. Astrotrain ( talk) 20:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Padraig, of course I want us to inform as wide an audience as possible. All along, I've been trying to promote what I think is most beneficial to the encyclopedia, reflecting the current situation. With respect to the infobox, there are quite a few combinations of things we could put there (as we once tried to enumerate in that infamous straw poll), but my opinion is that only three of them are viable. In order of "encyclopedic value", I think they are:
  1. Both the Union Flag (first) and the Ulster Banner, with a caption that says (informally) "this one is the official flag, and this one is sometimes used, but is not legal". If the caption mentions both flags, it is only logical to show both flags.
  2. Show only the Union Flag, but still use the full caption. This is less than ideal, in my mind, as it mentions the other flag without showing it.
  3. What we have now, a captioned imageless infobox. Just plain goofy, and not very helpful to the reader.
Andrwsc ( talk) 20:14, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply
We currently Mention Both flags without showing either, wouldn't showing the official flag with the text not be a better solution. The idea of showing the Ulster banner as the flag of Northern Ireland and then putting a footnote that most readers wouldn't notice or read saying that this is not really the flag of Northern Ireland is goofy to me.-- Padraig ( talk) 20:21, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Andrwsc I fail to see the reasoning that other countries have a flag in the infobox as justification for putting the Ulster Banner in the NI infobox look at Kosovo for example it does not have a flag. -- Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 20:27, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply
It is not the same, Northern Ireland has a flag that is used to represent it internationally. It was the official flag for a time, and is now used unofficially. That is why it should be used alongside the official flag in the infobox. Astrotrain ( talk) 20:28, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Astrotrain do you have a WP:RS for that claim it was one time the official flag of Northern Ireland, as even during the period 1953 to 1972 when it was used as the banner to represent the former government it was never the flag of Northern Ireland, which was then as it is now the Union Flag.-- Padraig ( talk) 20:33, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply
The Ministry of Defence (for one) states that "The Union Jack (or Union Flag) is Northern Ireland's official flag. The well known Red Hand Flag has not been officially used since 1973" [57]. Your claim that has never been the official flag of Northern Ireland is false. The flag was the official flag in Northern Ireland and is now unofficial and is used when a flag is needed to represent Northern Ireland as a unit, that is why it is still used for the Commonwealth Games etc. Unionists continue to use the flag. Astrotrain ( talk) 21:14, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply
It was used officially by the former government as a banner to represent that government, which is why when that government ceased to exist in 1973 so did its banner. You still haven't shown it was the flag of Northern Ireland, either then or today, which is the context your trying to use it. And as has been repeatly pointed out its use in some sports is not disputed, but is not justification for its use as a flag of Northern Ireland or inclusion in the infobox. Unionist/Loyalist extremists use it, but thankfully they are a very small minority of the Unionist population, Republicans use the Tricolour should they also be able to claim it should also be included, after all the biggest sporting organisation in Northern Ireland is the GAA, who also use the Tricolour.-- Padraig ( talk) 21:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply
It was used officially as the flag of Northern Ireland by the government, that is why it is still used today becuase its use did not end with the government. It is a similar situation to other British territories, the flag is assigned to the government and becomes the national flag. Astrotrain ( talk) 21:45, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Not according to British Constitutional traditional, where a banner or flag is granted for the use of the government not as a National or civic Flag, therefore in 1973 the Government and the trapping of that government ceased to officialy exist.-- Padraig ( talk) 21:52, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply
If it was never a national flag it would not still be used now. Many flags are used initially by government, including the Union Flag itself. Use by non government bodies shows that it is national flag to represent Northern Ireland. Astrotrain ( talk) 21:58, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply
The reason it is still used today by Unionist/Loyalist extremists is because they want to return Northern Ireland to pre 1972, with a Protestant Government for a Protestant People the banner is their rallying point for that cause, prior to 1972 they didn't care about the flag. In 1954 when the then Unionist government introduced the Flags and Emblems Act, it didn't even mention the Ulster Banner or protect it own in that Act, which was used to protect the flag of Northern Ireland the Union Flag, now if as your trying to claim that it was the flag of Northern Ireland why would the then government fail to mention it in legisation in intruduced to protect National Flags one year after the banners introduction.-- Padraig ( talk) 22:15, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Ulster Banner on commons

By the way, in regards to the image name for the Ulster banner here on wikipedia, a new image location on the Commons has been created for it: [58]. The ulster banner only has about 200(thats a rough guess) instances of it being used here on wikipedia, one or two people could easily change them all to a new location such as banner.png over the course of 2 or 3 days(if that). Fennessy ( talk) 21:36, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply

That's helpful, but it would have to be converted to SVG format before I will replace the image used by Template:Country data Northern Ireland. Andrwsc ( talk) 21:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply
I don't agree that should be used- there is no real evidence outside Wikipedia of that being the name for the flag- Red Hand Flag is more common for example than Ulster Banner. Perhaps Unofficial Flag of Northern Ireland would be acceptable per Britannica. Astrotrain ( talk) 22:09, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Provide sources that the "Red Hand Flag" is more common if you have a problem with the title "Ulster banner". I find it very strange that you have not mentioned that you have a problem with that name even once up until now. I think any other title would just end up being far, far too long. Anyway the file is in .svg format now & appears here on the commons of Northern Ireland.svg & here of Northern Ireland.svg on wikipedia. I strongly feel the all appearances of the image should link back to the new title & the old one should be deleted. Fennessy ( talk) 23:36, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply

We were not discussing the name until now, so why would I comment on it. Yet again the same small band of editors think they can impose their own preferences without discussion. So much for mediation. Astrotrain ( talk) 23:52, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply
No but it has been refered to by this name in practically every post. You never had a problem, now your switching gears yet again. Whats more it's entirely relevant to wikipedia, there's no need to place this problem in the hands of someone else when it can be resolved here. Fennessy ( talk) 00:29, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply
I think all this discussion is moot. Start with putting commons:Template:Move on commons:Image:Flag of Northern Ireland.svg and get the discussion going there. Andrwsc ( talk) 22:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Yeah thats probably a good idea. The most important thing now is to take forward your guidelines on usage, and end this dispute. Astrotrain ( talk) 22:20, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply
AStrotrain no guideline has been decided it is only a idea that would have to be agreed first.-- Padraig ( talk) 22:35, 28 November 2007 (UTC) reply

The UB is not the informal, unofficial, legal, current, temporary, or anything else. What we do know is, that it is not the flag of Northern Ireland. Period. Now you can attempt to introduce some WP:OR if you wish, but it is just wishful thinking. Now it has been used in some sporting areas, that’s it. Now I for one will not pander to the sensibilities of anyone who suggests that that flag has any official status. -- Domer48 ( talk) 18:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply

By definition, if it has been used in some sporting areas (as you agree), that means it is being used unofficially. And if you've been paying attention, you'll see that absolutely nobody on this page has suggested that the flag has any official status, so I have no idea why you bring that point up. Andrwsc ( talk) 19:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply

The current state of this mediation

Hello all. This mediation has been going on for a long time, and it seems pretty clear to me that no consensus is going to be reached on this page; therefore, I feel that it is necessary to close this case as failed. I will probably be doing this within the next couple of days. I am sorry that we could not come to an agreement, but the discussion was not going anywhere. Please leave a message here or on my talk page if you have any questions or comments. -- דניאל - Danth eman531 23:28, 29 November 2007 (UTC) reply

So if mediation has failed what happens? BigDunc ( talk) 12:56, 30 November 2007 (UTC) reply
It means that they can't use the Ulster Banner onless the can provide WP:RS, except for it use in sport, history of Northern Ireland 1922-72 and articles to to with the elections of thatperiod, or on Unionist/Loyalist articles.-- Padraig 15:37, 30 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Well, no, that's your preferred outcome, not the result of this mediation. It means that each "side" will probably continue editing as before, reverting to each's preferred POV. Andrwsc 17:06, 30 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Dan, I'm not so sure we should disregard this as a complete failure. In my proposal above, there are a couple of dozen situations that both Padraig and Astrotrain agreed to. I think we should try to proceed with drafting a Wikipedia guideline page that covers those. That should stop the bulk of edit warring and allow us to remove {{ pp-dispute}} from several templates. Of the remaining 3-5 areas in dispute (infobox on Northern Ireland, Template:UKFlags, "Symbols" section of United Kingdom, and possibly List of British flags and List of Northern Irish flags, depending how they are modified per my proposal), I suggest we keep the {{ pp-dispute}} tag on the templates and the appropriate message boxes in the article prose until they are resolved. Andrwsc 17:06, 30 November 2007 (UTC) reply
I don't see how they can be resolved given that Padraig refuses to consider your guidelines in those areas. Although we should remember that Wikipedia does not revolve around him, and we don't need his approval to implement them. Astrotrain 18:20, 30 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Sure, but let's resolve what we can now, and only take the small remaining subset of disputed pages to the next stronger step of dispute resolution. Andrwsc 18:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC) reply
I don't think it is possible to do that. We can't let someone dictate what things they want done, and leave everything else in limbo. I'm sure Padraig would be happy to implement the sections of your guidelines that he likes, and hold back the parts he doesn't in this current locked state. I am happy for all sections of your guidelines to be implemented, even the parts I don't like or agree with. Astrotrain 18:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Padraig doesn't just speak for Padraig, he represents several people. Stop claiming otherwise. Fennessy 19:00, 30 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Exactly, including me - he has sounded trunced all over the flimsy arguments and shown that his arguments comes down to OR and POV - well done Padraig.-- Vintagekits 19:08, 30 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Um, no. He has consistently stonewalled the mediation and obscured the debate many times by quoting policy inappropriately, thereby creating the illusion of a valid argument. "Well done"? Hmmph. Andrwsc 19:15, 30 November 2007 (UTC) reply
It is to the benefit of the encyclopedia to at least document the items you both agree on. Astrotrain, I appreciate that you are willing to take the "whole package", including things you don't like, but it doesn't look like you need to make that compromise if Padraig is unwilling to do the same. Still, I think there are probably several areas that you currently both agree on, without compromise, so let's at least get those written in guideline form. That should help constrain the more "radical" editors out there, I hope. Andrwsc 19:15, 30 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Andrwsc I would not accept your suggestions at all. I consider them to be one-sided, and having read your contributions biased. Pádraig has run rings around pro-UB editors on this issue. Including you. There is no legal or constitutional bases to the claim that the flag is official. All Pádraig has asked that they provide a verifiable and reliably sourced reference, which states that the UB is the official flag of Northern Ireland. Now you can try and fit the square peg into the round hole as much as you like, but if it means riding rough shod over wiki policies its not going to happen. Pádraig has remained consistent through out. Your disparaging comments should be withdrawn. Now information which is not verifiable and reliably sourced, may be challenged and removed. I have to respect Pádraig’s patient efforts, and have found him to be most reasonable. I not interested in any condescending reply. The policies are quite clear, and any attempt to introduce original research, should be resisted by all interested editors. Should you consider me to be one of the more "radical" editors because of my insistence on maintaining policy, I have another policy for that. -- Domer48 20:26, 30 November 2007 (UTC) reply

For crying out loud, how many times do I have to say it: I AM NOT A "PRO-UB" EDITOR. Did you even read my proposal? Or do you just prefer to "cherry pick" one or two points you don't like? I am recommending widespread removal of that flag image from many articles, and if you look at my edit history (about a thousand edits ago, perhaps), you'll see that I actually made many of those edits myself! Take a look at my contributions in the category namespace for a quick example - I replaced the UB with the green map blob thing on several dozen category pages where it was used with the {{ portal}} template. What constructive contributions have you made to this mediation?
And why do you persist in saying things like There is no legal or constitutional bases to the claim that the flag is official. Nobody is making that claim on this mediation page — especially not me! One of my specific quotes is:

The Ulster Banner has no official status in Northern Ireland and is not permitted to be flown from government buildings. However, several sporting organizations such as FIFA and media organizations such as ESPN commonly use the flag to represent teams and athletes from Northern Ireland.

What part of that statement do you think cannot be reliably sourced?
If you find this reply "condescending", so be it. And the only thing I consider you to be is unhelpful. Andrwsc 20:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Are you suggesting that I'm "consistently stonewalled the mediation and obscured the debate many times by quoting policy inappropriately, thereby creating the illusion of a valid argument." Have I miss quoted the policies on verifiable, reliably sourced and original research? In case you missed it, check out the history on the Northern Ireland article. Yes, I have contributed to this discussion, and suggested that we apply the current policies mentioned above. Now I know this will cause some editors reverting to edit warring to push their POV, but hey, what can you do? Check out the whole Derry / Londonderry, and the hole I got myself in on it. Now I revert editors who replace one with the other, I accept the policy, even if I don't like it. So my advice to the pro-UB editors is get over it, move on, and do something a little more productive. Now to answer your question again, I have read your proposels, and I think they are crap. I think they are a sop to easy the tension, and resolve nothing. You what to put the UB in the info box? What for? If that is the case, why not put the [ official flag ] in also? I could use the same line of thinking as the Pro-editors. -- Domer48 21:07, 30 November 2007 (UTC) reply

You have a very difficult time reading talk page messages properly. I made those comments about Padraig. Those words were placed under a message congratulating him for ensuring a failed mediation.
As for policies, I would say you play a fine game of Wikipedia:WikiLawyering with them. When I tried to start a discussion about how to assess "due weight" — which would have been a perfectly legitimate discussion per Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Undue weight, and something the policy doesn't address, alas — you reply with an accusation of policy violation (Andrwsc you can dabble in as much WP:OR as you wish) and a non-sequiter comment about an issue not in dispute (Just remember, when someone ask's what flag is the official flag of Northern Ireland the answer will still have to be it has not got one.)
My proposals (plural) are "crap"? Seriously? So you disagree with the twenty or so situations I describe where the UB must be removed? Wow. Andrwsc 21:34, 30 November 2007 (UTC) reply

I have to agree with Domer48 here. Andrwsc, you claim that Padraig is "quoting policy inappropriately", when nothing is further from the truth. Get specific. All he has done is uphold official wikipedia content policies consistantly in the face of extremists & WP:OR(good-intentioned as it may be).
Whats more you don't have to be a "unionist" to have a view on this issue— it has long since become a battle-ground issue for people with right-wing political views & misguided individuals with scottish/ scots-Irish ancestry in general. Fennessy 21:38, 30 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Also, can you(Andrwsc) tell me why you favor essays & guide lines while largely ignoring official content policies? Fennessy 21:41, 30 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Which policy am I ignoring, and how? Andrwsc 21:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC) reply

I have closed this case. No more editing should take place on this page, and this case will be archived. Editors should make the changes that were agreed upon above. Unfortunately, you are on your own regarding things that were not agreed upon here. As always, you may leave questions or comments on my talk page. I hope that you are able to resolve this issue in some venue, although it won't be through this mediation. -- דניאל - Danth eman531 21:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC) reply

This whole flag flap, deserves a place at Wikipedia: Lamest edit wars page. Nobody ever asked what the Ulster Banner thought. GoodDay 23:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC) reply
Certainly not lame...how would you like it if a determined group of editors were trying to make the Jolly Roger the "flag of Canada" on en:Wiki? (And at the least the JR isn't a sectarian symbol). ( Sarah777 13:58, 1 December 2007 (UTC)) reply

Comment

I would like to add my view to this. I am extremely annoyed to find that the User:CommonsDelinker has been used to change an image I placed on my personal user page IE:- Image:Flag of Northern Ireland.svg to Image:Flag of Northern Ireland.svg and draw me into an apparent edit war that is spilling over from the English Wikipedia.

This image name change has been done under the claim that the 1st image is an exact duplicate of the 2nd image. This is incorrect as the 1st image has been uploaded since 28 November 2005, by User:Dbenbenn who is a Wiki Commons Bureaucrat, whilst the second has been created by a new user:- User:FalseXflag downloading the first image and re-uploading it, with a different name, two days ago on 28 November 2007, which technically makes the 2nd image the duplicated copy. It appears that the uploader is involved in an edit war over the name/purpose of the image for his own personal POV reasons on the English wikipedia.

To use User:CommonsDelinker to then change multiple user pages is a form of vandalism, as now many users with different political points of view around the world have been summarily forced to have this change of name forced on them.

To also claim that the delete tag should be removed from Image:Flag of Northern Ireland.svg on the grounds that the image was linked to hundreds of articles and templates, is also offensive, had the delinker not been used then the image would not exist on those articles/templates as claimed, having only existed under that name two days ago. It should also be noted that many articles/templates have not been able to be changed, as the 1st image is used in many other countries version of Wikipedia. They were listed on the 1st image page, though an edit by User:Siebrand removed the list from view, though it still visible in the edit history here:- Edit history Image:Flag_of_Northern_Ireland.svg. An attempt has been made to take a back door approach to having the image name changed, when it was opposed by other editors on the English Wikipedia; See:- Talk Page - Flag of Northern Ireland and Image Talk page - Ulster banner.

As a Yorkshireman I consider myself to be neutral over the name or correct affiliation of the image, however I am aware that whilst living in Northern Ireland in the early 60s, and then working in the ambulance service there in the early 70s, the flag was flown on NI Government buildings. My usage of this particular image is to show the Flag that was in use at the time I worked there, I do not wish it to be seen as a link or an affiliation with any particular political party or group, of which I have none!

I am also concerned over the timing of the sudden appearance of the 'New User' User:FalseXflag, who re-uploaded the original image with the new name having only done 3 edit contributions then disappearing to be followed up by other anon editors; See:- of Northern Ireland.svg&action=history Revision history of "Image:Flag of Northern Ireland.svg" which brings to mind sock-puppet editing!

I have also noted that [[ ]] has now edited my user page to undo my revert of the User:CommonsDelinker's change of image, in addition to changing many other articles and user pages, despite the fact no consensus to do so has been agreed. This again I consider to be vandalism of my user page, as may the other editors whose pages he has edited. Some may consider it to be a form of bullying to have another editors POV forced on them!

Perhaps the best way to solve this hostile edit warring and blatant expression of POV's would be to first reverse the User:CommonsDelinker edits of:- Image:Flag of Northern Ireland.svg, then rename the image to ' Flag of Northern Ireland (1953-1973).svg '. After which the Commons delinker can run through all wiki's to change the links and then finally delete both Image:Flag of Northern Ireland.svg and Image:Flag of Northern Ireland.svg. Richard Harvey 02:07, 1 December 2007 (UTC) reply

I would suggest posting this to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. Possibly, the remedies at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Probation for disruptive editors might apply. Andrwsc 04:25, 1 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Your incorrect, firstly the Flag of Northern Ireland.svg was incorrectly named, as it was not and never was the flag of northern Ireland, this was corrected by uploading the image:Flag of Northern Ireland.svg which was then added to the County Date template to replace the other image, other instances where also updated by myself and other editors, it was this that replaced the majority of the image in Wikipedia not the commondelinker bot.-- Padraig 22:24, 1 December 2007 (UTC) reply
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