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Is there an English-language database online - from where I can get information to take part in this project? --[[User:OldakQuill| Oldak Quill]] 16:31, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
User:Sarcelles has started or expanded a very large number of articles about Chinese cities, so that most of their content deals with prison and laogai facilities in those cities.
While I don't want to remove legitimate information or act as an apologist for any government or organization, I believe that this level of specificness is misplaced. City articles generally do not contain complete lists of parks, shopping malls, factories, courthouses, police stations, hospitals, schools, or prisons. Specific information about each of the parks, malls etc. in the city article itself is even rarer. In general a city article should be about general information (geography, history, etc.), and there has to be a cap on the level of specificity involved.
When the cap of specificity is exceeded, then it's pretty clear that the info is being put in with a political bent. Many of the cities that are being described have long, illustrious histories; interesting and unique local customs; and are hometowns of famous personnages; so a native of such a city being described as nothing but a "place with laogai" is probably not going to be very flattered or amused.
I therefore propose that:
Of course, all discussion is welcome.
Here's a list of such articles:
-- ran ( talk) 15:09, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
Sarcelles 12:31, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Prisons in China may be a lot less pleasant than prisons in the U.S., but how are they more important? Because they serve a regime that your POV considers evil, in ways that your POV considers unjustified?
It's not like there aren't any malls, schools, hospitals, courthouses, etc. in China. I mean, you could also say that "schools in China are vehicles of propaganda for the dictatorship", and say that they're more important than American schools. Or that "courthouses in China are representative of a corrupt judicial system", and say that they're more important than American courthouses. But I don't see you writing paragraphs about specific schools. Do you think it's appropriate to describe, for 50%+ of a given article about a city, about a particular school or a particular courthouse?
You have to keep in mind that you're not here to push a POV, you're here to describe things. A city is a city is a city. You are welcome to add as many lists of schools, courthouses, and prisons as you like into miscellaneous sections of each city article. But if everyone pushed POV the way you did... then what next? Falun Gong activists would be inserting the number of people who were arrested (plus their specific names and ages) in each city for Falun Gong related activities. Maoists would be inserting the number of workers who have rioted and died (plus their specific names and ages) in each city. Nationalists would be inserting the number of anti-Japanese petitions (plus the signatures and their dates) in each city. This is simply not sustainable. -- ran ( talk) 12:43, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
actually is a religion, at least it has an English article ( Chinese folk religion).
Sarcelles 09:34, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Also: some of these city articles contain info on the number of Christians. But where did the info come from though? I don't think statistics bureaus in China give out information pertaining to religions ... -- ran ( talk) 15:32, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
Sarcelles 10:35, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
What's their source? How do they get something that Chinese statistics bureaus don't have? -- ran ( talk) 12:18, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
Sarcelles 09:22, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Just for your information: Sarcelles is a user that was banned in the German wikipedia (the reason being that he created hundreds of careless articles about Chinese cities where the information was wrong or badly misleading) and in the French wikipedia (the reason being that he started the same activities in there, but in such a bad French that it was considered vandalism by the French users). Thereafter, he continued in the Italian wikipedia (he was temporarily blocked due to articles in bad Italian) and in the Low Saxon wikipedia where he is likely to be blocked if he continues in the way he has been doing. Now, the quality of his articles he contributed in en: has improved, however, they are still one-sided and the information provided may be very doubtful (it depends on how reliable the Laogai handbook he refers to is). As information about labour camps is not something readily available, we may assume that also the Laogai handbook contains much information that may be speculation, or outdated. Someone else from the Low Saxon wikipedia already posted some information about him at his talk page, but he deleted it here. I am not sure how cases like his are handled in en:, but he is certainly a very problematic user and he need some way of control. -- Herr Klugbeisser 01:33, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
He says was banned in the German Wikipedia' . The German Wikipedia does not exist, as there are severel German Wikipedias.
A block of an author of Chinese topics in the French Wikipedia can be considered POV, given the bad reputation of China in France.
Labor camps should obviously be mentioned in articles about the cities cities concerned, even if User:Herr Klugbeisser has the cynism to make PR for the People's Republic of China including censorship.
There is no Low Saxon Wikipedia. It is written in Low Saxon and East Low German, which are different varieties, but integrated in one Wikipedia. Hoped to have clarified things. Sarcelles 10:34, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
I have to criticize your habit of voting for deletion of German articles critical of Mainland China's system. These are written by various authors.
This habit is what I meant by Censorship. I did'nt say you were writing positive of the censorship of the PRC. Hope to have clarified things. Sarcelles 12:44, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
It's not that I want to pick on you, Sarcelles, but some of the contributions you've made (e.g. Tewu, which is simply a Chinese word for "spy") suggests that you're willing to put up completely misguided or biased information. -- ran ( talk) 17:22, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
Sarcelles 18:26, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Hi all, I've been looking at User:Sarcelles' contribs, and it is apparent that he is adding these city articles purely for the sake of adding the location of laogai camps, since most of these cities aren't really notable (well, 300,000 people in a Chinese city isn't a lot), and little else other than the location, administrative region. One such example:
Changji has a university. Changji Reeducation through labor is here. Changji Prison, where inmates have to work on Xiabahu Farm also is near Changji.
Now, The education system in Changji is covered in 4 words. The "correction" system? 20 words. Not to be a nitpick here, but such information simply cannot justifiably be placed in such a stubby article without revealing the writer's political POV. Besides, laojiao is different from laogai. I think it is safe to assume that Sarcelles got his info from a booklet by the Chinese Democracy Movement (or even, Free Tibet), which, in itself, is a political organisation and naturally POV. - Hmib 18:41, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Would it be possible to produce locator maps for the prefecture-level divisions? (and hopefully county-level divisions within prefectures at a later stage) We can start with provinces with fewer prefecture-level divisions, such as Qinghai. Would be nice if locator maps are available for districts and county-level cities of famous and populous prefecture-level cities, say Guangzhou or Wuhan too. — Insta ntnood 20:12, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)
Hi guys, as you know our friend sarcelles is still putting up poorly worded stubs on Chinese cities about prisons and labor camps. I was a little bored and decided to google some of the cities he has written stubs on. Well what a surprise, every single one of the cities I searched on google turned up on www.clearwisdom.net, which is a site promoting Falun Gong. He is clearly here to promote a non neutral point of view and a point favoring his own views. Just thought you should know. -- Abstrakt Jun 29 2005
Tibet Independence. If this is one out of eight sentences, that deals with a Prison, this is not really too much. Sarcelles 30 June 2005 06:42 (UTC)
Ok
sarcelles I don't mean to pick on you again, but apparently you do not understand the term "Neutral Point of View". Please and I mean please try to look up that term in the dictionary and find out what it means. I mean you're missing the point here made by
Hmib, you are clearly posting stubs from sources that display a certain point of view. And what's even sadder is that you admit that you are copying and pasting from a non-neutral point of view source.
Abstrakt Jun 30 2005
Sarcelles, you are copying from clearwisdom.net, a Falungong-operated site. Falungong, as a party in this fiasco, is definitely not to do trusted as an accurate/NPOV source, since they have everything to gain by adding some spice here and there. We are not doubting the truthfulness of your prison stubs, (even with them coming from Falungong sources - but that's just my bias,) but rather that they are overemphasising on one aspect of these cities which can easily be intepreted as pushing POV. - Hmib 30 June 2005 19:01 (UTC)
If someone can read italian, informations here 84.253.136.132 8 July 2005 00:44 (UTC) (user MM on it.wiki)
OK everyone there's not much currently going on here. I think we have a pretty good concensus that Sarcelles' articles are of sub-par quality. Now do we delete them or what? - Hmib 21:26, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Sorry if this is a little late but yeah I've already checked and editted most if not all of Sarcelles's stubs on Chinese cities. Abstrakt 15:09, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi there guys, it seems our old friend Sarcelles is back to his old tricks once again, yes that's right he's back to posting up poorly editted stubs with the aim of promoting the plight of the Falun Gong. The articles in question are as follows: Changchun Public Security Bureau, Tangshan Public Security Bureau, Shijiazhuang Public Security Bureau, Lu'an Public Security Bureau . All of these articles follow the same old formula that Sarcelles used for his string of poorly written stubs on Chinese cities, that is: location, a couple of landmarks such "it is next to a police station", then his pleas for the Falun Gong". I have nothing against the Falun Gong but he's clearly using Wikipedia for vanity purposes, to promote the Falun Gong. Abstrakt 15:03, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
New addition to the list:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bengbu Public Security Bureau
Abstrakt 04:28, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Just asking what are we doing about Bengbu Public Security Bureau? Do we nominate it again? Oh yeah Ran if you're in the mood for nominating, these two are "winners": Chinese intelligence activity in other countries and Filipino diaspora. Abstrakt 05:00, 29 September 2005 (UTC)]
Here it is, reopened by me (a bit risky): Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bengbu Public Security Bureau -- ran ( talk) 02:49, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Well, it got closed again, this time as a "No Consensus". Oh well...... =/ I suppose one article cannot hurt, since we can always decide what to do about it later. The important thing right now is to see what Sarcelles does next. -- ran ( talk) 00:31, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Another thing: I don't think we should be pushing articles through vfd as often as we're doing now. It's hard enough to convince people who don't understand the situation. Filipino diaspora, for example, is a legitimate topic that can be expanded upon. Chinese intelligence activity in other countries can be merged into Ministry of State Security. -- ran ( talk) 00:46, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
I have received Miborovsky's message on my German discussion page. First, sorry for answering late, I was off-line for a few days.
I have followed Sarcelles for some time and, honestly, I am surprised that he can "survive" in en: for such a long time. He was banned in de: for the same reason you are considering an RfC on him, which is, POV edits, poorly written stubs, and a complete refusal to discuss his style/mission. It is not due to some language barrier that he does not answer your questions. As said, in de:, he has been banned completely, in nds:, he has been close to being banned a few times, and the fr: guys considered his poor French as vandalism and blocked him without much discussion.
Also in de:, he has shown more than once that he does not have the slightest idea about the things he is trying to describe. Therefore, numerous articles created by him have simply been deleted because they had no value to the reader and the information was too difficult to verify. Attempts to find verification for his facts repeatedly showed that his information was blatantly wrong.
So, in my opinion the only way of handling this guy is banning him and reverting all his POV. Don't try to discuss with him, he will not answer. Anything else is a waste of your time. I hope it helps. -- Herr Klugbeisser 02:10, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Oh great, you're back, read your edits over
Sarcelles and tell me if they're POV or not, if you can't pick up your blantant POV's in your articles, then you are beyond help. I'm not sure is it your understanding of POV that is in question, but you clearly do not a definition of the term "POV" or "point of view". Frankly like many other people here, we are sick and tired of tracking down each and every one of your edits. And NO and I mean DO NOT give us this tired line of "articles on the persecution of religious minorities or containing the topic of persecuted religious minorities", we are not after you for writing articles on that subject matter, moreever we are after your articles because they are filled with BLATANT errors and assumptions, also most of the time you have merely copied information from suspect websites. Also have you forgotten your string of "Public Security Bureau" articles? They had nothing to do with religious persecution, it was just another way for you to spew out more of your POV.
to quote Ran: "This is not about religious persecution. We would be unhappy if anyone pushed a POV like this, no matter what POV it is.
Imagine that there is someone who doesn't like the Roman Catholic church. Rather than just sticking to Catholicism-related topics and contributing in a sane, neutral manner, however, he goes around and spreads inaccurate information about Catholicism and a lot of other topics, simply because he doesn't make sure he knows what he's writing about before he writes it. To make sure people understand his POV, he starts hundreds of tiny little articles on North American and European cities and towns just to show off his anti-Catholicism POV. He would start one tiny article about a town somewhere in Europe or Africa, and 80% of it would be about some atrocity committed by Catholics that he heard from an anti-Catholic source. And then he repeats this for 100 other articles. Wouldn't you be pretty annoyed? I would. But that's what you're doing. Look in the mirror"
Anyway you've been banned on various Wikipedia's, do you know why? It is because of this behavior.
I'm sorry to say but if this continues to be a problem, we might have to go through the trouble of request for comment (RFC). Abstrakt 05:47, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Some guy on fr also mentioned that he is active in Polish wiki too, but I haven't checked it out yet.
--
Mib
orovsky
05:15, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Just keep watching Special:Newpages. I haven't seen anything suspicious yet. -- ran ( talk) 18:16, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
This guy simply does not learn. Yes that's right you guessed it, he's back to his old ways of posting up poorly editted prision stubs once again.
He has already ignored a request to cease from this behavior of putting poorly editted prison stubs where he draws his information from pro-Falun Gong website http://www.clearwisdom.net
I mean he has done exactly what I predicted he would do after we almost moved in on a RFC last time, he layed low for a couple of monthes and once we were off his back, he went back to his previous behavior as if we never did anything in the first place. With this kind of behavior, he should be banned like he has been on the German, French and Italian wikipedias.
Abstrakt 03:36, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
more added. Abstrakt 19:14, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I've grouped them all into a consolidated discussion located at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chinese prisons by Sarcelles. Next time, if these articles prop up, just tell me and I'll exercise some IAR. -- Миборовский U| T| C| M| E| Chugoku Banzai! 00:07, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
2 new additions to the list, I've checked on them, I'm unable to find any information on the first link, as for the second link the only thing I can find on them is that it is mentioned on www.clearwisdom.net. The text from the first article is highly questionable and possibly Sarcelles own POV: "As of September 2004, most inmates were Falun Gong members"
Abstrakt 00:57, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
current work by our friend sarcelles List of Laogai institutions and List of reeducation through labor institutions Abstrakt 08:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
This is a template. Please feel free to fill it in:
Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Sarcelles
-- ran ( talk) 17:33, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Hello all... I'd love to join this project. I'm new but have quite a few edits under my wiki-belt. I lived in China for several years and have a decent command of Mandarin... writing's so so but my geography related vocab is decent. I've been working on getting all prefecture level cities in Gansu started and have recently done some in Jiangxi. I've also created an easy-to-edit, detailed map of China. The map's flash so I can do almost anything with it. based on Chinese government issue maps and atlases. If you ever need a map just send me a request. Hope I can be of some help.
Mike 21:26, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I've been adding alot of cities. Finished Sichuan, Gansu, and Guangxi. Also did the city list for Guangxi but it still needs to have its pinyin finished. Hoping some of you guys can take a look at them and give 'em a critique. I think I developed a decent standard format that follows alot of what you guys have already contributed. Also might need some fixes on my translations... definately imperfect to say the least. Next I'll head to Yunnan, then maybe Hubei. Started a Sichuan cities list but that's kinda boring. Peace ya'll!!! Mike 19:39, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Hello. I'm a member of the Version 1.0 Editorial Team, which is looking to identify quality articles in Wikipedia for future publication on CD or paper. We recently began assessing articles using these criteria, and we are are asking for your help. As you are most aware of the issues surrounding your focus area, we are wondering if you could provide us with a list of the articles that fall within the scope of your WikiProject, and that are either featured, A-class, B-class, or Good articles, with no POV or copyright problems. Do you have any recommendations? If you do, please post your suggestions at the listing of all active Places WikiProjects, and if you have any questions, ask me in the Work Via WikiProjects talk page or directly in my talk page. Thanks a lot! Tito xd( ?!? - help us) 18:31, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
to put on the talk pages of articles part of this project....what do you guys think?
btw i haven't made it a template yet...just experimenting around atm
zeChinaman 16:54, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
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Please help with Tungkuan (please also explain what spelling it is) . `' mikkanarxi 18:58, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
All of the places in China listed below have a population of > 100,000 and have articles on other Wikipedia editions, but not in the English-language Wikipedia. Would anyone be interested in starting some of these?
-- The Anome 11:43, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I did a bit of editing on Liupanshui. Maybe we should focus a bit on large cities that have bad articles. Colipon+( T) 07:45, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 20:25, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
FYI: Wikipedia:Missing_articles_for_towns_and_cities_with_100,000_or_more_inhabitants#China. Kaldari ( talk) 18:31, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
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Good links about China division http://chinadataonline.org/cgepublic/cityclient16/# -- Kaiyr ( talk) 19:34, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Good links about China division http://chinadataonline.org/cgepublic/cityclient16/# -- Kaiyr ( talk) 19:34, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Hi! This is Peterye2005. I am planning to expand the article: Huayin. Peterye2005 ( talk) 17:18, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
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