Initiated by Martin ( talk) at 03:32, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Case affected

Eastern European mailing list

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Remedy 7

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• Martintg ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

• NA

Amendment 1

• [1]
• The topic ban applied to Martintg ( talk · contribs) is amended. Martintg may edit the articles listed below solely to add references and to make such incidental changes as may be necessary to bring the article into compliance with the sources used. In the event that any such edits become contentious, Martintg is expected to cease involvement in the relevant article. Martintg may also create a category for unreferenced Estonia-related biographies of living persons, tag articles for inclusion in that category, and announce the category's existence at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Estonia.

Statement by Martintg

This request is an extension to Radek's previous request [2] concerning the sourcing of Polish BLPs. There are a number of Estonia related BLPs also lacking references. Steve Smith suggested [3] that if Radek's request passes I should identify specific BLP articles in need of sourcing. I have amalgamated the two amendments (BLP sourcing and category creation) into one since they are both related to the list of articles mentioned below.

Preliminary list of Estonia related unsourced BLPs that would be excluded from the topic ban for purposes of referencing

I've returned from vacation and have now gone through all the BLPs and the following require sourcing: Natalja Abramova, Allan Alaküla, Toomas Altnurme, Maire Aunaste, Toomas Frey, Piret Järvis, Ülle Kukk, Teet Kask, Ülo Kaevats, Kaur Kender, Vilma Kuusk, Malle Leht, Andres Lipstok, Leiki Loone, Sven Lõhmus, Ene Mihkelson, Helle Meri, Kristine Muldma, Sulev Mäeltsemees, Ester Mägi, Sulev Oll, Birgit Õigemeel, Reet Priiman, Tiit Pääsuke, Kuno Pajula, Aarne Ruben, Martti Soosaar, Peeter Torop, Endel Taniloo, Taimo Toomast, Indrek Toome, Hannes Võrno, Mart Ummelas

Statement by other editor

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

Response to Risker: The way that I understand the wording of this proposal is that the onus is on me to step back from any article that may become contentious. Basically, if somebody reverts a source I put in an article for whatever reason, or brings up some other objection, the plan is to completely leave that article alone and let the other person(s) deal with it. In other words I take the proposal to specifically state that it is on me not to let myself be baited into battlegrounds or edit wars, if this is attempted. However, I don't think is likely to be a problem; the sourcing of the first 26 articles went smoothly and I see no reason for why this shouldn't continue.

Having said that I do want to note that I very much doubt that these articles will get sourced by some other means. Even after an announcement on Wiki Project Poland (per last amendment) not that much help has been forthcoming. So, very likely, absent my efforts most of those BLPs are going to end up just sitting there unsourced or end up deleted (and some of them consider very notable people). radek ( talk) 06:35, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Noted. Please be patient and allow time for discussion and voting. Could be anything up to a week. Carcharoth ( talk) 07:46, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Motions

1) Topic ban narrowed (Radeksz)

The topic ban applied to Radeksz ( talk · contribs) is amended. Radeksz may edit articles in Category:Poland related unreferenced BLP as of February 8, 2010, solely to add references and to make such incidental changes as may be necessary to bring the article into compliance with the sources used. In the event that any such edits become contentious, Radeksz is expected to cease involvement in the relevant article.

Enacted ~ Amory ( u • t • c) 18:02, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Support

1. Proposed. The last round seems to have gone off without a hitch, and this really isn't an enormous category. Steve Smith ( talk) 23:27, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
2. Kirill  ^{[talk]  [prof]} 01:07, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
3. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 01:11, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
4. Fritzpoll ( talk) 12:10, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
5. Cool Hand Luke 04:31, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

     Roger Davies ^talk 04:39, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

6. KnightLago ( talk) 14:36, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
7. Mailer Diablo 12:39, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Oppose

Abstain

1. I am concerned that we may quickly see the return of the battlefield mentality, if not in Radeksz then in some of the editors on the other side of this issue, which may lead Radeksz into difficult-to-manage situations. I hope that administrators will consider any behaviour that could be considered baiting of Radeksz to be serious violations of our user behaviour policies (such as WP:GAME) and the prior decisions of this Committee. Particular attention may need to be paid to removal of newly inserted reference sources, or any other signs that a BLP is becoming a battlefield. Risker ( talk) 23:54, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Recuse

1. Shell ^babelfish 00:14, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
2. I recused on the case, so on second thoughts I'll recuse on this.   Roger Davies ^talk 05:58, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

2) Topic ban narrowed (Martintg)

The topic ban applied to Martintg ( talk · contribs) is amended. Martintg may edit the articles listed here solely to add references and to make such incidental changes as may be necessary to bring the article into compliance with the sources used. In the event that any such edits become contentious, Martintg is expected to cease involvement in the relevant article.

Enacted ~ Amory ( u • t • c) 18:02, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Support

1. Proposed. It worked well with Radek, and there seems little reason not to try it with Martin. Steve Smith ( talk) 23:27, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
2. Kirill  ^{[talk]  [prof]} 01:07, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
3. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 01:11, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
4. Fritzpoll ( talk) 12:10, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
5. Cool Hand Luke 04:31, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

     Roger Davies ^talk 04:39, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

6. KnightLago ( talk) 14:36, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
7. Mailer Diablo 12:39, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Oppose

Abstain

1. I have similar concerns about altering this topic ban as I do for altering Radeksz's topic ban. Risker ( talk) 23:54, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Recuse

1. Shell ^babelfish 00:14, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
2. I recused on the case, so on second thoughts I'll recuse on this.   Roger Davies ^talk 05:58, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Initiated by —  Malik Shabazz  ^Talk/ _Stalk at 21:34, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Case affected

Eastern European mailing list arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Remedy 3: Piotrus is topic banned from articles about Eastern Europe, their associated talk pages, and any process discussion about same, widely construed, for one year.

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• Malik Shabazz ( talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
• Piotrus ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

• Piotrus

Amendment 1

• Remedy 3: Piotrus is topic banned from articles about Eastern Europe, their associated talk pages, and any process discussion about same, widely construed, for one year.
• See below for proposed modification and alternative proposal.

Statement by Malik Shabazz

User:Piotrus used to perform a number of uncontroversial housekeeping tasks for WikiProject Poland that did not involve content editing of articles related to Poland. For example, he monitored newly-created Poland-related articles and, where appropriate, added applicable clean-up tags (including nominating them for deletion when necessary), nominated them for DYK, and invited their creators to the WikiProject. (A fairly complete list of his former responsibilities can be found here.)

When Piotrus was blocked, User:Jniech volunteered to take on some of those responsibilities. Jniech made a good faith effort, but for a variety of reasons Jniech has not been able to keep up with the necessary tasks. Both Jniech and I have asked for assistance, but none of the other WikiProject Poland members have volunteered to step in. Consequently, these tasks have not been performed for several months.

I hereby request an amendment to Piotrus's topic ban in order that he may once again perform these housekeeping tasks and post messages to WikiProject Poland to inform other editors about such tasks. Piotrus would be strictly prohibited from editing the content of any Poland-related articles except for the types of uncontroversial maintenance edits mentioned above.

In the alternative, I request an amendment to Piotrus's topic ban in order that he may inform me of any new Poland-related articles that, in his opinion, should be tagged for clean-up (including deletion), or of any other WikiProject-related tasks.

Statement by Nihil novi

To the best of my knowledge, all that Malik Shabazz says above is true. Piotrus has played an essential role in the production and maintenance of articles pertaining to Poland and Poland's broader geographic and historic milieu. Had Piotrus never written an article himself — and he has doubtless been one of the most productive editors on these and other subjects — his role in the cleaning-up of existing articles would still have made him one of the most productive editors on the English Wikipedia. Malik Shabazz's proposal, if adopted, will strengthen the project in a very substantial and noticeable way. Nihil novi ( talk) 06:36, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Darwinek

As stated above, User:Piotrus was of great help for WikiProject Poland. It would be extremely beneficial for the project if he would be able to perform easy non-controversial tasks for the project. His cleanup abilities are needed. - Darwinek ( talk) 19:08, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Skäpperöd

• Projects are one way to coordinate maintenance, but most editors maintain wikipedia articles without being enlisted by any project. They do so either regularily, by chance or by bot.
• WPPoland has 30+ active and 30+ semi-active members [4], including experienced users like Malik Shabazz, Nihil novi and Darwinek who commented above, but also other people with a high edit count.

If an editor feels some article needs an additional tag, banner, cat etc pp, WP:SOFIXIT applies.

Malik Shabazz based this request on his co-project member Jniech's mid-February request. Angus McLellan promptly offered advise on how to properly deal with the issues Jniech was uncertain about, while MS proposed to go to this board, and prepared this request in his user space afterwards. MS's assumtion that "A fairly complete list of his [Piotrus'] former responsibilities can be found here" is false. As any editor, Piotrus does not have any responsibilities here, except for playing by the (few) rules. The list MS linked are not Piotrus' responsibilities, but a list of optional, volunteer maintenance tasks that may be performed by anyone. MS's assumption that "these tasks have not been performed for several months" remains unproven, and it is neither shown that there is anything that really needs to be done and is not done. Skäpperöd ( talk) 08:33, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Visor

As it has been said above, Piotrus took significant role to create and improve hundreds of Poland and European related articles. Many of them became articles with the highest Wikipedia standards what can be seen by numerous of DYKs, Featured, A-Class and Good articles. I totally agree with Malik Shabazz and I believe (I know) Piotrus' work on WP:Poland will be beneficial for Wikipedia. Visor ( talk) 19:24, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Jniech

WikiProject Poland has a number of members but it is the number willing to do the work that is important. A few of us tried to cover for Piotrus. It is our failure that resulted in this request as without Piotrus help the backlog of outstanding tasks is only going to increase.

Further in my mind adding a template or recommending an article for DYK is not really breaking Piotrus ban on editing article on central and eastern European topics.

Members of Wikipedia can help with many issues but there is the issue of maintaining consistency. Only someone with years of knowledge on Polish related articles can help with this.

It only hurts Wikipedia by not considering this request. Piotrus appears to have broken the rules and some form of punishment was warranted. Stopping Piotrus adding content and discussing articles on central and eastern European issues maybe fair but taking part in “uncontroversial housekeeping tasks” seems unnecessary. In olden days, prisons were for punishment. In these more enlighten days rehabilitation is the goal. Why not consider this? If Piotrus breaks the rules then increase the length of ban but stopping him doing house keeping others can’t be bothered doing seems wrong.

Those who doubt that there is a need only has to monitor the WikiProject Poland page to see increasing numbers of Poland-related articles by quality and importance which are not assessed and that is including those we are failing to tag Jniech ( talk) 09:55, 19 April 2010 (UTC).

Statement by M.K.

Given the long history of off-wiki games, disruptive coordination to circumvent Wikipedia policies, tag-teaming, stealth canvassing etc. any attempt to ease any sanctions should begin with a full acknowledgement of guilt by the sanctioned party. And by full acknowledgement I mean not "non-apology apologies" that we did have before, not wikilawering or beating around the bushes, but straightforward admition by the sanctioned party that it understands why it was sanctioned, and admits that its actions such as 'tag team' edit-warring, abuse of dispute resolution processes, proxying for blocked user and encouraging and advising other Wikipedia editors to circumvent Wikipedia policies were disruptive, harmed Wikipedia’s integrity and will never be repeated again. Without such statement any motion to ease these sanctions should not even be considered.

Finally, none of those “tasks” listed above are vital to the project and easily can be carried out by other members of the project. If Piotrus has too much free time, he can work in dozen other WP projects. Saying that, I perfectly understand that we will see countless other typical “amendments”, “calcifications” and “requests“ in the near future. M.K. ( talk) 06:50, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Lysy

I can only confirm that Piotrus housekeeping tasks related Poland-related articles are missed now. Besides, Piotrus used to do an outstanding job indirectly motivating other editors to improve the quality of the project articles, and this is missed too. It seems that the proposed amendment can only do good and I can see no harm in it. -- Lysy ^talk 19:01, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Poeticbent

Time flies. The month of April is already getting close to an end. Piotrus is going to return to full time editing in several months, regardless of any amendments to EEML. I ask. Why not allow him to return to his area of expertise one step at a time, and, take on noncontroversial tasks in the process of recovery. The Project Poland has been virtually dormant since the New Years, with only rudimentary maintenance and peripheral activities taking place. Poland–related DYKs have all but vanished from the front page of Wikipedia since last year. Naturally, Piotrus is not going to make up for all the loses endured by the Project, but his own prior devotion to this portal would be a good place to gradually start rebuilding. -- Poeticbent talk 20:14, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Jan eissfeldt

well, i can`t write a lot about the eeml-stuff because i haven`t followed the progress in detail and i`m sure that the arbcom was as carefully as always. i want to provide an other point: Piotrus is an experienced university outreach user - especially as main contributor of WP:SUP, where he runs his own sociology project every term - and expanded the perspectives of this part of the wikipedia. he is trusted there as well as on the real life aspects of this matter and so i would be pleased if it would be possible to give him the chance to run a SUP-project of his own again, best regards -- Jan eissfeldt ( talk) 20:24, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Piotrus

I did not want to comment earlier as I wanted to avoid influencing the discussion. I feel that the experienced members of the WikiProject Poland who commented above summed the situation quite clearly and that they are aware of my past and present commitment to the project. To sum it up, shortly, I am fully prepared to resume my uncontroversial wikignoming activities by working within the WikiProject namespace as outlined in the proposed motion. Despite good faithed efforts by some editors, there are many tasks that have not been carried out, with the detrimental effect for the project (and Wikipedia in general - from low recruitment of new members to low levels of copyediting activity). I feel I can resume doing them uncontroversially as I have been doing for the past several years (for that WikiProject, and as I've been doing for others, such as WikiProject Sociology and the Schools and Universities WikiProject).

To Risker: regarding six months, please note note that there have been no issues involving my editing since the case was opened in September last year.

Thank you for your consideration, and I want once again to thank the WikiProject members for their continued faith in me. I will not let you down, -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:35, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

To Rlevse: please let me know if the following elaboration does not address your question.

Shortly: as I noted during the arbitration, I understand that asking for edits on a private foras or responding to such requests should be avoided. As you can see from my edits during the case and this year (that adds up to about half a year of active editing now), I edit in a peaceful manner that isn't raising any issues. I am not sure how I can give you something other than words, since the intended edits have not been done yet, for obvious reasons (and it is a bit hard to demonstrate the lack of controversial edits/issues, see, my proof of that is here: [? lack of complains]). Perhaps the best proof of this is that no editor commenting on this motion so far has been able to present a single problematic post-artbitration start diff. You are welcome to review my recent edits in other en Wiki areas (or projects); I can also list some of the edits I'd like to propose for project member consideration here (but I want to make sure that would be ok with you, I don't want it to be seen as an attempt to evade the restriction). Also, as Malik noted, a list of things that should be done, isn't and that I intend to do is here. -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:39, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

To Carcharoth: there are no (more) floaters on my userpage. The ones on my talk page should allow access to the toolbox - just scroll down a little bit (and let me know if you still cannot access it). Re 1) yes, they were transwikid by User:Graham87 upon my request last week or so (it is my understanding transwiki is the proper way to preserve edit history for copyright and attribution) from my Polish Wikipedia sandbox (the link to which I send to ArbCom months ago, and this is the same place I developed my Lech Wałesa article from the previous passed motion). 2) I was cleaning my sandbox, which involved moving some content to new pages. The content on the page you are referring to is not new but quite old and was moved from here. 3) Yes, but ON POLISH WIKIPEDIA, on the aforementioned page. It was and is my understanding that this is acceptable, see also my following reply. 4) It is my understanding that the original motion included my en Wikipedia userspace, but not any space on projects other than en Wikipedia. I believe that Coren's motion makes it clear that this motions concerns only the WT:POLAND page.

Seeing as I am answering all of those questions, I do have a quick question of my own. Am I allowed / will I be after this motion to do the following: 1) invite editors by posting on their user talk pages to join the WP:POLAND project 2) answer editors asking me questions like this one that they should direct their questions to WT:POLAND and 3) (after the motion passes) tell them that I've replied to their question there? (As all of those involve edits in a different namespace than this motions concerns, i.e. user talk namespace) -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:47, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Varsovian

I entirely agree with M.K. There are at least a dozen other WP projects which those who were very deservingly banned as a result of the EEML affair can engage themselves. I’d ask why we see this constant stream of ‘can I just do this thing? It’s completely uncontroversial’ requests but we know why: these people are expert at gaming the system. Banned means banned. Varsovian ( talk) 08:05, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

"Can Varsovian provide a single instance where these amendments were used to "game the system"? No? Then don't make empty and false accusations." No I can not. But I can provide examples of using a host of techniques to degrade the project which were used by the members of EEML. Which one would Radek like me to point out first? It would be highly amusing to be lectured by Radek about things which one should not do with WP, if it wasn't so sad that he clearly has learned nothing from the EEML experience. Varsovian ( talk) 11:13, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Radeksz

I've tried to avoid controversy and refrain from commenting but sometimes enough is enough. In response to Varsovian and M.K I'd like to point out that

1) Wikipedia is no place for personal vendettas. Actually, that kind of thing reflects badly on a person in general, here or elsewhere.

2) The existence of other projects is irrelevant. Other people involved with WP:Poland made this request - hence they must think Piotrus' work would be very helpful. I'm sure Piotrus could involve himself in WikiProject Small Purple Rodents or whatever but he'd probably be pretty bad at it. He has lots of experience in this area and that is where his help is needed.

3) If other projects need help, then perhaps some users could expand their time and energies there, in a constructive manner, rather than wiki stalking editors and wasting people's time.

4) These previous "can I just do this thing" amendments - I believe this is a reference to my two amendments. I would like to point out that both of these amendments passed off without a hitch, without controversy, without any harm to anyone, without breaking of any rules. At the same time they resulted in the sourcing of 150+ unsourced BLPs, a clear benefit to the encyclopedia. Can Varsovian provide a single instance where these amendments were used to "game the system"? No? Then don't make empty and false accusations. That kind of thing reflects badly on a person, on Wikipedia and in general.

5) To add to 4) above, the only controversy is the empty controversy and battlegrounds that some editors are trying to foster here.

Statement by Russavia

Because of the heinous nature of Piotrus' violations of the spirit of Wikipedia policies and practices, and because of the non-existence of any acknowledgement of wrong-doing, I would prefer to see that he serve at least 6 months of his topic ban before any such requests are considered. And even when they are, they should most certainly not have anything to do with process discussion, or even nominating articles for AfD. There would also need to be a narrow section of articles that he would be allowed to edit for maintenance - e.g. anything relating to Poland and it's interactions with other countries should definitely be off limits for the full twelve months. -- Russavia ^{I'm chanting as we speak} 11:13, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Awaiting further statements before commenting. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 15:11, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
• I'll repeat the essence of what I had discussed on my own talk page with Piotrus: I am receptive to allowing him to post to some well defined location about articles that currently fall under his topic ban, and see this as an opportunity for him to return gradually to contribution in that area. The suggestion of using the Wikiproject talk page seems sound to me as well.

  That said, I admit I'm very hesitant to allow even seemingly uncontroversial edits to the articles themselves at this time. Too often, "uncontroversial" is anything but and lies in the eyes of the beholder. Accordingly, I wouldn't support that level of relaxation this soon. —  Coren  ^(talk) 19:08, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

  • I'll post a proposed motion in that direction sometime today. —  Coren  ^(talk) 10:44, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
• Continue to be recused. Shell ^babelfish 06:26, 22 April 2010 UTC)
• Generally agree with Coren here. SirFozzie ( talk) 16:39, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
• Agree with Coren as well. KnightLago ( talk) 19:44, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
• For Piotrus: You were banned totally 3 months (ending a month ago) and topic banned 1 year; only 1/3 of that time has passed. I also recalled how hard you lobbied for those things not to happen. Bans aren't ended early because no one has filled on what the banned person used to do. Bans are ended early because the banned person has shown they've truly learned from what got them banned, realizes what caused it in the first place, and has shown they won't repeat those behaviors. All too often some banned person lobbies for an unban, gets it, and goes right back to their old ways. While I appreciate that some things in the Poland topic aren't getting done, I can also appreciate Risker's concerns. I'm read your statement above, but I need to see more, not just words. Can you elaborate? — Rlevse • Talk • 12:15, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
• Piotrus, your user page needs fixing so people can click on your contributions link. I had to access that log a different way because of the floating thing obscuring the sides of the page. Like Risker, I think waiting for the 6-month mark would have been better, but I will support the motion because I see the logic of a gradual return in some areas. Please be crystal-clear as to what you can and can't do, and if you request a further review at the 6-month mark, your activities between now and then will be taken into account. It is entirely possible that some restrictions will remain in place for the whole year of the initial topic ban. Before I support, I have a few questions arising from a brief look-through I did for your contributions over the past 4 months. (1) Can you confirm that the article space edits during the period of the 3-month ban were due to content edited elsewhere and imported here? ( examples) - this appears to be some sort of glitch that needs fixing. (2) Could you explain the purpose of this page created on 26 April 2010? I'm not one to get picky about userspace edits, and this is clearly housekeeping, but can you understand that creating a page that looks like draft notes touching on Eastern European topics (it looks like that from what I've read of the page) might be considered borderline activity in the topic area? (3) Would you intend to continue article draft/notes activity in your userspace in the Eastern European or Polish topic area if this motion passes? (4) On the same subject, which other pages, other than the talk page of Wikipedia:WikiProject Poland do you see this motion covering (e.g. subpages of the WikiProject?), and do you think the original motion from the case ( here) included your userspace? (This is not a trick question, it is genuinely open to interpretation and better settled now rather than later.) Carcharoth ( talk) 20:23, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the reply and explanations, Piotrus. The floating stuff on your user talk page (I meant user talk, not user page) does give me a small window to access the sidebar (where your contribs link is), but it is still not ideal. It's not strictly to do with arbitration, but if you could try and see whether that can be fixed it would be good - people shouldn't really have to scroll around and having floating stuff killing other links is not good, though whether it is my set up or the floating thing, I don't know. About this and other stuff to do with the imports, I've reviewed the proxy authorisation and I think it would be best if you asked the three editors listed there to deal with things like this for you, rather than you doing it yourself or making requests yourself (or you could ask for Graham87 to be added to those listed at the motion). It may seem like unneeded layers of communication, but it is important to keep matters like that at arm's length and to work through the three editors named in the motion. On the same topic, moving edit history between namespace and projects is technically correct, but it can cause confusion when people try and work out later what happened (when edits are moved from userspace or other projects to mainspace, it can give the impression that material was present in mainspace on a particular date, when in fact it wasn't - and the transwiki logs don't really seem to be very visible). About the sandbox edits, I see now that it was all housekeeping and moving stuff around - thanks for clearing that up. Carcharoth ( talk) 23:53, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
    • To answer your questions, I would say limited posting in user talk space may be OK, but I had envisaged you being more able to do administrative tasks for WikiProject Poland, rather than extensively discussing things. For example, if a deletion discussion was mentioned, you taking part in a thread at WT:POLAND discussing the article would be similar to taking part in the actual deletion discussion. And if people start !voting in deletion discussions saying "per Piotrus on WT:POLAND" that would be bad. I'm going to have to think about this some more. I'm also not happy with the "raise issues and discuss improvements to articles" bit of the motion - such discussions can take place on wikiproject talk pages if the discussion is general and about a group of article, but specific discussions about improving an article should really take place on the article talk page (so others can see it in future). It might be simpler to amend the topic ban to allow editing in all namespaces except article space, and possibly to include a prohibition from participation at AfD, and to trust you to avoid contentious discussions. Either that, or to strictly limit it to the WikiProject pages only (though this doesn't avoid the problem that sometimes discussions take place on WikiProject pages that should really be located somewhere else). I'll wait for more input before voting. Carcharoth ( talk) 23:53, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
      • Carc, the reason this was proposed for WT:POLAND as opposed to the talk page is twofold: (a) it makes it centralized, and therefore easily monitorable, and (b) raising issues about an article needing attention on its talkpage is rather futile since it would not be seen by new editors. —  Coren  ^(talk) 11:13, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
        • Sure, but do you see Piotrus's role following this loosening of the topic ban as simply flagging up issues and then sitting back and letting others deal with them, or do you see his role as including "discuss improvements", which is technically what would happen on the talk page once people had been alerted at the WikiProject? In practice, such discussions tend to overlap between WikiProject talk pages and article talk pages. There may, for instance, be editors who would prefer to post at the article talk page rather than participate in a discussion at WT:POLAND. We shouldn't encourage long discussions about improvements to specific articles when there are other venues better suited to that (article talk pages and deletion discussions, to name just two). I have no objection to WT:POLAND being used to flag up articles that need attention, or for general discussions there about groups of articles within that WikiProject's scope, and I have no objection to Piotrus carrying out administrative tasks on all and any WP:POLAND pages and subpages (including initial postings pointing out problems for others to fix), but I'm wary of discussions getting out of hand and also wary of allowing user talk page postings as if would be better for Piotrus to get others involved in that side of things (delivery notices and welcome notices and invitations to join, etc). For now, I will support, and trust Piotrus to back off in certain areas if things appear to be getting out of hand. We do also need to answer his questions about other namespaces, and be more explicit about other pages and subpages of WP:POLAND. Carcharoth ( talk) 07:09, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
• To answer one of Piotrus's specific questions: my view is that if someone posts to your user talk about something in this topic area, you should avoid initiating a discussion there, and instead direct them to the talk page of WikiProject Poland where you should raise the issue for them if necessary and answer briefly if you have an answer for them. Again, this will encourage others to get involved, so the WikiProject is less reliant on you and others can step in to help out. Carcharoth ( talk) 07:22, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Motion

The current editing restriction affecting Piotrus ( talk · contribs) is to be amended to allow Piotrus to raise issues and discuss improvements to articles otherwise under the ban on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Poland talk page.

There being 16 arbitrators, 6 of whom are inactive, one recused, the majority is 5.

Enacted ~ Amory ( u • t • c) 00:35, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Support

1. As a first step towards gradual return to editing. —  Coren  ^(talk) 18:40, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
2. Given Piotrus' second stmt and the large swell of community support he has, I'm going along with Coren here and am willing to see how this first step goes. — Rlevse • Talk • 18:28, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
3. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 04:15, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
4. Provisional support, pending discussions above regarding other namespaces and other pages and subpages of WikiProject Poland, and urging Piotrus to be wary of engaging in long discussions on the WikiProject talk page that should properly take place elsewhere. If the discussion venue moves, he will have to show restraint and allow the discussions to continue on other pages without him, rather than allowing parallel discussions to develop. Carcharoth ( talk) 07:12, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
5. Willing to give it a shot. KnightLago ( talk) 15:11, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
6. Willing to give this a shot and see how it goes forward. SirFozzie ( talk) 15:24, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I'd like to see at least six months pass before moving toward the gradual return to editing (mid-June at earliest), and I note that Piotrus has not commented or made this request, despite being notified of this request for amendment. I am not comfortable approving this change without hearing from him, or his plans for editing and contributing in this area. Risker ( talk) 20:08, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

   Noting that I have read Piotrus' comments above. My general rule of thumb is that half the sanction period should be served before major changes; that would occur in June. I'm not seeing any reason that would compel me to believe that Piotrus is the only person who is capable to carry out the processes that are the basis of this request; they are tasks that any editor could carry out if s/he felt it was worthwhile. Without a compelling reason to make an exception in this case, I continue to oppose. Nonetheless, as this motion is passing, I will take this opportunity to note that this is a very limiting restriction and that Piotrus may make comments only on the Wikiproject page; it does not lift sanctions in other areas where he has professed an interest. Risker ( talk) 15:41, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Recuse

1. Kirill  ^{[talk]  [prof]} 01:56, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Abstain

• Moved to abstain. I completely missed that Piotrus hasn't commented here. What's up with that? KnightLago ( talk) 20:19, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Comment

• See my stmt in the arb section. Holding for now. — Rlevse • Talk • 12:17, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Supporting now. — Rlevse • Talk • 18:28, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Initiated by radek ( talk) at 18:04, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Case affected

Eastern European mailing list arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Remedy 10

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• Radeksz ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

N/A

Amendment 1

• topic ban
• This is a request to amend the EEML case in order to allow me (USer Radeksz) to edit articles in the Eastern European area again. As such it is an appeal of the topic ban that was implemented in December as part of the case.

Statement by Radeksz

In the winddown of the case, several of the arbitrators, past and present, indicated that they would be amenable to an appeal and lifting of the topic ban after suitable time has passed. It's been almost 6 months since the case. Furthermore, appeals such as this one are often made and granted in similar cases.

Activity since the case

Since the conclusion of the case I have been active in other areas of Wikipedia, such as Mexican History [5] and Economics [6], and I have tried to take scrupulous care to abide by my topic ban. I have avoided any controversy in the area of Eastern European topics, or any other topics for that matter. Also, through the two amendments that were passed which already narrowed my topic ban, here and here, I was able to source over 150, unreferenced Poland related BLP articles that might have been deleted otherwise. The lifting of the topic ban would allow me to improve the remaining Poland related BLPs (over 170 still left, as can be seen here) many of which are in need of expansion, tagging, and updating (many of them are several years out of date) in addition to sourcing.

Since this is likely to be brought up by someone else, I want to indicate that in one instance I did in fact apparantly violate my topic ban, by posting a comment at the AfD for the Ryszard Tylman article (I did not however vote in the AfD). Since the subject of the article is a Canadian I wasn't aware that the article fell within the scope of the topic ban and I removed my comment as soon as the matter was brought to AE.

Here's a list of some of the other things I've accomplished since December;

• I created three articles which were reviewed and attained Good Article status: Treaty of Ciudad Juarez (now nominated for FA [7]), Battle of Ciudad Juarez and Confederate war finance. I plan on continuing to work on these to bring them up to Featured Article Status. I also have another article currently going through the GA review process, which just made GA status, the Brander-Spencer model [8].

• I created about 23 DYK articles since December, mostly in the areas of Mexican History and Economics. A full list is here.

• I've been active in tagging and assesing articles within Wikipedia:WikiProject Economics as well as helping out in more minor roles on bringing the article on Price elasticity of demand to GA.

• I've helped bring the article Nobel Prize to GA status (I was very careful to avoid sections which deal with Eastern European recipients of the prize so as not to violate the topic ban).

• I've also *almost* hit 15,000 edits!

In carrying out this work, several times the topic ban limited my ability to fully improve/create some of these articles. For example, in my article on the Preston curve - a relationship between income and life expectancy - I avoided discussing the large drop in life expectancy in Eastern Europe in the early 1990's so as not to violate the topic ban - this was actually picked up on by an anon reader on the talk page of the article but I was unable to respond. In my other work on Economics related topics, I also was unable to assess and improve articles which tangentially might have to do with Eastern Europe and Poland - for example article on the famous Polish economist Michał Kalecki.

Plans for the future

If this amendment is succseful, I plan on creating and working on the following articles which are concerned with Economic History and Eastern Europe. I don't anticipate that any of them should prove controversial - of course, if any disputes arise in the future, I will be careful to observe high standards of conduct:

• Domar serfdom model (did factor endowments (land-labor ratio) determine whether a pre-industrial economy ended up with slavery, serfdom or free labor?)
• Brenner debate (related to the above, what ended feudalism in Western Europe but caused its re-emergence in Eastern Europe?)
• Second feudalism (re both above)
• Economic history of Poland (started, on hold since topic ban went into effect)
• Piast monetary policy (of the Polish Piast dynasty; sometimes good, sometimes bad, just like Ben Bernanke today)

(among others)

I would also like to help out with the gnomish tasks over at WikiProject Poland to lighten the load on some of the editors who have picked up the burden. Furthermore I would very much like to resume my participation in the Wikipedia:Jewish Labour Bund Task Force project, which has become somewhat dormant since January - I believe I can revive it with new articles and activity.

Furthermore, as mentioned above, I plan on contiuning with the sourcing and improvement of Poland related BLPs. I would also like to expand/create several articles on some of the casualties of the 2010 Polish Air Force Tu-154 crash, since they are quite notable but lack adequate coverage on Wikipedia. In general, articles on "current events" in Poland, such as the May 2010 Central European floods, are always in need of knowledgeable editors and I can help a lot of with those.

Lifting of the topic ban will enable me to improve these and other articles, and it shouldn't be controversial. In addition I plan on continuing work on articles not related to Eastern Europe.

General statement

I would like to point out that both amendments which narrowed my topic ban went off without a hitch or controversy. I think this will continue if the topic ban is amended.

I left the mailing list which was the subject of the case in November 2009. I have not participated in any activities that were deemed objectionable by the 2009 ArbCom which led to the topic ban, since then.

Looking back on the case after 6 months I have to say that I have learned a lot since then. Basically, I still believe that the people who were on the mailing list, joined it with the best of intentions for Wikipedia and its policies. I do realize now however that at some point things were over the line and that, often out of frustration, members of the list, myself included, engaged in questionable activities for which I personally want to apologize.

I encourage everyone, former members of the list, as well as their "opponents" to undertake efforts which will reduce the battleground atmosphere in this topic area and lead to more collaborative editing. Somebody's got to make a show of good faith however, and I would like to say that I personally harbor no grudges against any other editor currently active on Wikipedia and am willing to work with anybody. I'm going to reset my "assume good faith" meter back to good faith and I hope others do likewise.

re to Skapperod

1. I did leave the list in Nov 2009. The precise date was the 21st of November, 2009. The oversighted edit in fact showed this exactly as it included the heading for my unsubscribe request. Since you went over that oversighted data with a fine comb, I am sure you are aware of this, so why are you misrepresenting the facts and in the process calling me a liar?

2. I have no idea what the relevance of the Wikipedia Review "diff" is to this appeal or what it has to do with me. Somebody there said the admin Adjust Shift was a sock puppet. So? What does that have to do with any of this? With my topic ban? With Eastern Europe? Nothing. What exactly are you alleging is the problem here? You are connecting completely unrelated and innocuous events in a questionable effort to merely sling mud and hope that somehow it sticks.

3. At the Tylman-related AE, administrators Future Perfect, Sandstein and Tznkai (maybe Stifle too, I can't remember) all stated that they believed I was not aware the AfD fell under the topic ban, although I should've been more careful. An assessment with which I agree and share.

4. I did not violate the topic ban when I commented on Molobo's request. I was clarifying a misunderstanding with regard to blocking policy and WP:OFFER on the part of another editor. Hey, Rlevse was right there and I responded directly to him as well - surely he would've noticed if this had been a topic ban breach. And I'm sure you, or someone else would've made a AE report out of it if you had had ANY confidence that it was indeed a topic ban violation. You didn't. It wasn't. You knew it then, you know it now.

Add: I've copied the relevant discussion that is supposed to be a "topic ban violation" , into a subpage so that it can be easily examined here. Please look at it and compare it to the false claim being made. Note also the "You are quite right, Radeksz." and the "Thanks for pointing out my mistake!" comments made by PhantomSteve, an uninvolved editor, which shows pretty clearly that (aside from the fact that this had nothing to do with the topic ban) I was not being confrontational or controversial in this case at all. This is really really fishing for a crappy reason to hang an "oppose" on.

I will reiterate my sincere hope that the editors active in this area abandon their battleground mentality and try to work constructively together.

re to Skapperod's further thoughts: Skapperod, you are again bringing stuff up from December - when the case wasn't concluded or any sanctions made. You are again bringing up stuff that's not from Wikipedia at all but from an external public website (which is read and occasionally commented on by some of the arbitrators - so they could've already read what I had to say there). And you are again completely misrepresenting what I said or did. radek ( talk) 02:33, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Skäpperöd

I am not convinced, considering:

• the severity of the offense that led to the sanction.
• the untrue statement of Radeksz above that he left the list in Nov 2009: evidently, he was enlisted and active in Dec 2009 which he revealed himself while proxying.
• more off-wiki contact to listmembers while topic-banned targeting perceived opponents: Radeksz asked for this diff to discredit a former EEML-target on 5 Jan 2:16am at WR, received it on 5 Jan 2:31am at WR, and on 5 Jan 9:15am, the diff appeared on-wiki at co-EEML-member Molobo's talk page.
• The abovementioned diff was removed by Molobo (27 Jan) when he prepared an unblock request (29 Jan). The request made it to AN/I, where Radeksz commented on 23 February, violating his widely-construed topic ban from EE-related process discussion.
• Radeksz also commented on the AfD concerning the article of co-EEML-member Tylman on 30 April, violating his widely-construed topic ban from EE-related process discussion. Given the close ties between Tylman and Radeksz, the latter's argument that Tylman's Canadian citizenship made him think the AfD was excepted from the ban is not convincing - Tylman's connection to Poland is simply too obvious, and evidently Radeksz was aware of that since Poland-related topics, not Canada, was the common interest they shared and focussed on in the EEML, and Tylman's Polish background was emphasized in the article the AfD was about.
• on 21 Jan, Radeksz removed his outburst with the edit summary "i miss the old times" to avoid the pending sanction.

I appreciate the above apology, but not its timing. I would have more trust in the apology if it was not made in the context of wanting the sanction lifted. Skäpperöd ( talk) 23:05, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Re @Radeksz

Re delisted: The diff shows that you continued the EEML and just changed the channel. It does not matter whether you use Digwuren's wpm or send circulars via other servers, what matters is that you maintain that virtual war room per se and the high traffic generated there, before and after November, resulting in coordinated actions on-wiki as demonstrated by the very action you performed resulting in that infamous proxy- and leak diff.

Re WR: In this context, it adds to my concern that a wiki-diff you gather at WR needs only a few hours to be posted by Molobo on-wiki. How could that happen without invoking off-wiki coordination?! And, since that diff consisted of mud to be slung at a former target, and since all of this happened while you were topic banned and Molobo was blocked, it has everything to do with a mentality the EEML sanctions, including this appealed one, were to remedy.

Concerning the topic ban violations, at least in the case of 30 April to 1 May it was obvious enough to result in a block. When Russavia left the obligatory AE notification on your talk, you did not accept that either and attacked him as a stalker.

Skäpperöd ( talk) 13:01, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Re Igny and more thoughts/diffs

Of course battleground mentality is not shown openly on en.wiki while he wants to have his sanction lifted, in contrast to WR where Radek is more blunt, e.g.

• Arbcom are "not just plain ol' assholses, like the ED folks, but they're creeps, self-righteous creeps";
• also blame shifting on Lithuanian and Russian users).

The oversighted diff that brought about Offliner's sanction and the abovementioned pair of WR/ wiki diffs show continued off-wiki coordination resulting in on-wiki edits. Radeksz also

• advocated unblocking of his co-listmember Molobo in the course of DonaldDuck's unblock request [9] and on AN/I [10],
• advocated in his co-listmember Tylman's AfD [11], attacking Varsovian as a "dick" in the same post,
• attacked Matthead as an asshole [12],
• attacked Dr.Dan as a troll [13] (following this one [14]),
• and attacked Russavia as a "stalker" violating the interaction ban [15].

The last appeal Radeksz filed, against a previous sanction [16], was prepared on the EEML (see archive), where Radeksz also announced to keep "low-profile" until the appeal was through.

Lifting already lenient sanctions is not really solving the problem of malicious mailing lists - the next one just got busted [17] ( Азербайджанский список рассылки). Skäpperöd ( talk) 22:53, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Igny

Radek and I were opponents in several content disputes in EE area. However, I was against blunt topic bans during the EEML case and I fully support Radek's request to lift the ban on EE topics. After all, that area is where Radek is very knowledgeable and where his contributions would benefit the project a lot. I have looked over recent history of contributions by Radek and did not notice any of the "battleground mentality" (4 words to Skapperod: eye of the beholder). I would hope that everyone learned their lessons from the EEML case, and it certainly seems that way for Radek. ( Igny ( talk) 03:23, 5 June 2010 (UTC))

Statement by Paul Siebert

I think, the only EEML's sine was that they were creating a visibility of a consensus between allegedly independent editors whereas in actuality there was a strong coordination between them. In other words, they were creating a false impression that several independent editors were acting, although in actuality it was just one collective editor. The EEML group's punishment was correct, however, that does not mean that the ideas they were promoting should be banned. Since EEML members' actions de facto converted them into one collective editor, they should be treated as such, and that would be a solution, at least temporary, of the issue. In other words, the issue can be resolved if only one EEML member will be allowed to edit EE related articles. For example, if Radek wants to edit the invasion of Poland article, he is free to do that, however, by doing that he made the article banned for other EEML members. Of course, other members can discuss his edits with him, however, they will not be able to participate in the talk page discussions, in RfC's etc. I propose to lift a topic ban for Radek and for all other EEML members provided that two or more EEML members are not allowed to edit one article simultaneously (or to simultaneously participate in talk page discussions). -- Paul Siebert ( talk) 15:16, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
PS. It is necessary to note that I also was an opponent of many EEML members.-- Paul Siebert ( talk) 15:18, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Novickas

I see phrases used by R. above as not in keeping with a pledge to maintain high standards of conduct and minimize confrontation: 'misrepresenting the facts and in the process calling me a liar?', 'merely sling mud and hope that somehow it sticks', 'really really fishing for a crappy reason to hang an "oppose" on'. Addressing Russavia as 'my dear stalker' on April 30th [18] doesn't inspire confidence either. He could of course refactor or otherwise address those. But to me, using that language here says he hasn't internalized a less confrontational approach to WP disputes. It can be done - there are editors here working in really troublesome topics who contribute to resolution - in part by speaking calmly and neutrally. But I don't see R. as doing that at this point.

I like Paul Siebert's suggestion - altho it seems rather novel for WP. It wouldn't solve the problem posed by R.'s language, which has a conflict-escalating aspect, but it would act to reduce the teaming concerns. Like Paul, I note that I also was an opponent of many EEML members. Novickas ( talk) 17:41, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

OK, I appreciate the support rationales. But I still worry that if R. returns to this area, and problems come up (they will), and other editors voice concerns, what if R again responds with 'my dear stalker'. You-all may, of course, feel that our skins should be thick enough to withstand those kinds of comments. I'd prefer to see first see some sort of commitment on R's part to moderate their language. Novickas ( talk) 22:45, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Those arbs supporting this motion - you are in effect saying it's OK that he used the words dick, troll, stalker, asshole, and quasi-Nazi after his topic ban. On the grounds that he made other valuable contributions. Now I don't think either Skap or I are asking for a groveling apology. There is a middle ground. That would be publicly acknowledging Skap's and my concerns in a respectful way. It's been done.

It would be nice if Coren clarified and expanded on 'any relapse is likely to be poorly received'. Do you, Coren, feel those weren't relapses; or that they were but they should be forgiven since enough time has passed since then; or that no evidence shows the kind of collusion he was topic banned for; or...? Novickas ( talk) 18:00, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by dr.Loosmark

I cannot agree with the comments of the "opponent of many EEML members" Novickas and Skapparod too who seems to be blowing out of proportions old things, Skapparod's diffs seems to be from January!? To be totally honest I think it would be better if more really neutral editors would give input but ok that's not for me to say. Anyway I have carefully examined Radeksz's contributions to wikipedia since January and I don't see any problematic edits. Quite the contrary, I see he has really worked hard and made a huge number of quality contributions and there weren't any problems that I am aware of.  Dr. Loosmark  18:34, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by other editor

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Recused from the EEML case. Shell ^babelfish 18:19, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
• My first instinct is that we should lift the topic ban, but I wonder whether something more nuanced and narrow can be written in its place. As Paul Siebert says, the problem was not lone editing, but banding together with other EEML members. Perhaps lift the ban, but impose a restriction on interacting with other former EEML members in EE topics. Cool Hand Luke 17:24, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
• This particular self-rightous creep is open to revisiting this sanction. One possibility is lifting the sanction for a trial period (say, a month) and seeing how things go. Another is to refer to the proposed narrower wording for all the topic-bans that I suggested on the proposed decision page at the time. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 23:36, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Motion

Remedy 10 of Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list ("Radeksz topic banned") is rescinded.

(There being 14 arbitrators, five of whom are either inactive or recused, the majority is 5) ~ Amory ( u • t • c) 04:41, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Enacted ~ Amory ( u • t • c) 20:50, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Support

1. Steve Smith ( talk) 04:49, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

   I've been asked to explain my rationale, which is fair enough. The short version is that I think many of the EEML problems grew out of a bit of a mob mentality, and my experience with mobs is that once you get their members to engage as individuals, they're okay. Radek's plainly thinking for himself, has been well behaved during his sanction (including while editing on Poland-related stuff in response to the prior amendments to this case), and obviously has a lot to offer on Poland-related stuff, primarily on non-contentious Poland-related stuff. I'm not proposing this motion because I believe that the original sanction was wrong, but because I don't think it's serving much purpose at this point. Steve Smith ( talk) 22:15, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

2. I prefer this to the status quo. Cool Hand Luke 17:25, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
3. I see good work being done since the time of the closing of the EEML case, and I believe a suitable period of time has passed. Risker ( talk) 19:13, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
4. With the understanding that any relapse is likely to be poorly received. —  Coren  ^(talk) 20:46, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
5. Willing to try this (although it might be more clear if the motion said "terminated" rather than "rescinded"); see also my comments on the proposed decision page of the original case. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 06:20, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
6. While I appreciate Skap's concerns and am almost swayed by them, I am going to support this per Risker and Steve. — Rlevse • Talk • 12:19, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
7. Concur with Steve Smith. - Mailer Diablo 14:52, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Recused

1. Kirill  ^{[talk]  [prof]} 21:05, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Initiated by Biruitorul ^Talk at 19:53, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Case affected

Eastern European mailing list arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Remedy 19

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• Biruitorul ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

• N/A

Amendment 1

• topic ban
• This is a request to amend the EEML case in order to allow me (User Biruitorul) to edit and create articles in Category:Geography of Romania and Category:Geography of Moldova again. As such it is a partial appeal of the topic ban that was implemented in December as part of the case.

Statement by Biruitorul

Well, I've been stewing in my own juices now for six months since the EEML decision was handed down, and I feel it's time to open the windows a crack and let me resume some of my more worthwhile activities. No off-wiki coordination, no canvassing, no usage of hidden communication to create the appearance of a consensus: I get it now, believe me. Half a year of scrupulously having to avoid my favorite subject area has drummed these lessons into me. Truth be told, I haven't been too active here since December, but neither have I done any harm. The only possible blemish on my record is a non-event that led to a pretty disgusting decision. (Let's be serious here, you don't extend a valuable contributor's topic ban by five months because he's made a few harmless edits he thought he was free to make.)

What I'm proposing here is to be allowed to dip my toe in again, editing in the areas of Romanian and Moldovan geography, neither of which has been the subject of much controversy in the past, certainly not involving me. There is quite a bit I plan to do: to give one example, I plan to finish creating articles on the communes of Moldova, which I had nearly finished doing before being rudely interrupted by this overly broad topic ban. Let's see how this goes. If for some reason I can't handle it, throw the book at me. If, as I suspect, everything will run smoothly, then in a little while I'll have reason to appeal more of, or the entirety of, the topic ban. - Biruitorul ^Talk 19:53, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Lysy

Yes, absolutely. Both proposed categories are lacking a lot, so having an active editor there could only be of benefit. Besides, it would allow Biruitorul to prove that he/she can edit in a harmonious and proper way in his/her area of interest. Eastern European topics lack good, mature editors. -- Lysy ^talk 13:58, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by other editor

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

Motion

For this case there are 9 active arbitrators, not counting 2 recused. 5 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Remedy 17 of Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list ("Biruitorul topic banned") is lifted.

Enacted ~ Amory ( u • t • c) 19:44, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Support

1. Of the sanctioned parties, Biruitorul's misbehaviour was among the mildest. He/she has acknowledged the misbehaviour, and has had not conduct issues of which I am aware since the case. Steve Smith ( talk) 14:07, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
2. With appropriate cautions. SirFozzie ( talk) 19:15, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
3. Six months sounds like enough to me. Cool Hand Luke 21:18, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
4. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 21:41, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
5. Risker ( talk) 01:41, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
6. Per Steve. —  Coren  ^(talk) 14:23, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Oppose

Abstain

Recuse

1. Kirill  ^{[talk]  [prof]} 12:53, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
2.   Roger Davies ^talk 15:24, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

This motion passes and will be archived in 48 hours. Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) ( talk) 15:15, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Initiated by Martin ( talk) at 20:58, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Case affected

Eastern European mailing list arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Remedy 7

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• Martintg ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

• N/A

Amendment 1

• [29]
• This is a request to amend EEML Remedy 7 to end the topic ban that applies to Martintg and allow him to edit articles related to Eastern Europe.

Statement by Martintg

The locus of the WP:EEML case relates to off-wiki co-ordination and canvassing, which was done via a mail list. In the nearly nine months since I've taken stock, while taking a break to pursue some postgrad study. During that time I've reflected on what went wrong. I joined the maillist primarily as a convenient way to socially network with a bunch of people I've come to know through contributing to Wikipedia. Unfortunately this convenience led members of the list, myself included, into behaviour that crossed the line. This was due to a kind of mob mentality and a sense of hubris that developed along with it. This I regret. Prior to joining that list I was an editor in good standing, a clear block log, no ANI reports, no 3RR reports, no RFC/Us, no ArbCom cases about me, nothing.

In support I would like the committee to consider:

1. my previously un-problematic record (clean block log prior to joining the EEML and this affirmation of my previously good standing), indicating there is no issue of recidivism
2. my previous relaxation [30] had caused no problem
3. no violations of any WP:EEML sanctions since the case closed
4. your support for the relaxation of the topic ban for other editors
5. my expression of regret at the trouble caused by EEML membership and undertaking to put all that behind me

Since December I have created some articles on German politicians and political organisations and had sourced a small number of Estonian biographies without any issues (many were not notable so I hadn't bothered with those) after I requested and was granted a relaxation to my topic ban [31].

In regard to my plans in the area, I would like to continue to expand the range of arts and literature topics for Wikiproject Estonia. Previously I had filled in many significant gaps such as Culture of Estonia, along with a lot of related articles on literary figures (for example August Sang, Villem Grünthal-Ridala, Johannes Aavik), movements (e.g. Arbujad, Young Estonia and Siuru) and institutions like Art Museum of Estonia and Estonian Literary Museum. (A more comprehensive list is on my user page). There is still a lot to do, as you can see by the red links in Template:Culture_of_Estonia. Despite my continuing studies I expect to devote a little more of my time than in the past few months, as I do enjoy contributing my free time to Wikipedia.

Having ended such off-wiki co-ordination, and given an undertaking not to engage in such behaviour going forward, the conditions that led to the problematical behaviour no longer exists. There will be no off-wiki coordination, no canvassing, no usage of hidden communication to create the appearance of a consensus. I have learnt my lesson, will ensure this will be avoided in the future.

On a final note, I could have just as easily waited out the remainder of my topic ban and quietly slipped back into editing the area without subjecting myself to this, without having to acknowledge the issues that led to topic ban or make an undertaking in regard to the future. The fact I am requesting an early relaxation and thus am prepared to acknowledge these issues and make the undertaking should be viewed as a positive development by the committee and be applauded, not ignored or viewed sceptically (which would be wholly unjustified given my previous good standing and good behaviour since).

Response to Motions

After nearly eight weeks of waiting, I am appreciative that the Committee is finally acting on this and has proposed a couple of motions. But I have to question whether Brad's proposed motion isn't a pandora's box of gaming potential (as it was originally pointed out when he first proposed it in the EEML case). Not gaming by me, but by my opponents who would seek to exploit the ambiguity present to game and shop for admin action.

This isn't an idle concern, recently Biophys was topic banned from editing articles about the Soviet Union and former Soviet Republics [32], yet when he edited Pyotr Chaadayev, an 18th Century figure of Imperial Russia (thus clearly not a former Soviet republic and outside the scope of his ban), that didn't stop his opponents from claiming otherwise [33] [34], with one going as far as suggesting that Biophys broke his topic ban because the source of the quote he inserted into Pyotr Chaadayev was from a book written by an author who also wrote about the Soviet Union! [35] [36], while admins like Jechochman ominously choose to take the negative view [37], despite Shell clarifying the scope of the topic ban [38]

So I'm not confident that creating an article as innocuous as Visual arts in Estonia will not attract the attention of my opponents who would attempt to wiki-lawyer a case that I had violated this new amended topic ban and shop for admin action, given that the Soviet period had a significant impact on visual arts in Estonia. I don't think it would be fair on me to provide such a vague amendment that has the potential to be gamed and invite such a circus to decend upon me.

Therefore, given that I've already served almost 8 month of my topic ban, I ask that the committee take into consideration my former good standing, post ban good behaviour and assurances going forward (which seemed sufficient here so why aren't mine?) and support the first motion to lift my ban entirely so that I can have clear air to make a positive contribution without the threat of vexatious litigation. -- Martin ( talk) 06:40, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Igny

I can not recommend the lift of the ban for Martin based on his recent WP activity. In the recent 100 edits he just wasted everyone's time when participating in Russavia-Biophys EEML-related ArbCom case, and after some break just when EEML case was due for review and just when others filed for an amendment Martin rushed with several BLP fixes for EE related persons as if it was simply done to satisfy the previous amendment and justify a new one. ( Igny ( talk) 04:12, 8 July 2010 (UTC))

Update: I understand I could be too harsh in my statement and quite possibly our personal clashes in the past contributed to this. But in any case a "site-wide self-imposed ban" is not the right way to deal with topic bans. Topic bans were placed in part to reduce battleground mentality in controversial areas and productive work elsewhere was needed to demonstrate how an editor in question copes with withdrawal from the battleground. Just going into self-imposed exile for the length of the topic ban (regardless of the real life constraints) does poor job answering the question whether editor's problematic behavior occurs again when he returns to the EE disputes. I still think that Martin's lift of the ban is premature at the moment. Also tu quoque was not the right counter-argument to my point above.( Igny ( talk) 13:19, 8 July 2010 (UTC))

Re NYB and SirFozzie, I understand that you are willing to put your trust in that Martintg will not return to the "previous behavior". Could you clarify by showing examples of particular behavior that might warrant reinstatement of the ban? ( Igny ( talk) 21:10, 20 July 2010 (UTC))

Statement by Biophys

I support lifting the ban for Martin because he was productive and created sixty six new pages. Whatever problems he might have in the past, six months was a long time, and Martin was never a major "violator" anywhere. So I wonder what was the reason for the statements against him? Most probably, this is happening because he commented in a number of cases, including my case (which he was allowed to do). He should not be commenting on any cases according to the anonymous e-mailer to Petri. No so. In fact, the comments by Marting on-wiki were very much legitimate, much better than the cowardly letter by the anonymous emailer to Petri. Biophys ( talk) 12:28, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Statement by The Four Deuces

I object to lifting this remedy. Considerable time was spent on the EEML case and its members, rather than accepting the facts presented, wasted months of time of arbitrators and witnesses and were very offensive to them. Martintg's defence is basically that he fell into the wrong crowd and he is sorry. However, Martintg does not mention any actions he took that he regrets, any articles that he and his colleagues edited and now wish to repair or any editor he offended he now wishes to apologize to. This group shared a minority political point of view and damaged the neutrality of numerous articles and continued to collaborate off-wiki even after the case was presented against them. They do not accept that Wikipedia articles should be neutral and tied up the time of numerous editors. While it may be that they will no longer coordinate their efforts, their approach as individuals is damaging to neutrality. It is irritating that as I and other editors were arguing with Martintg and his colleagues and they were presenting arguments against us that off-wiki there were agreeing that our arguments made sense and trying to develop a new approach. Surely editors like this drive away most of the editors we want to attract, people who have the ability to write articles and those who remain are tied up in silly disputes. Dispute resolution, reporting editors for 3RR, writing Wikiquette and ANI reports are extemely time-consuming and allowing editors like Martintg will only discourage capable editors who are discouraged by the processes to counter editors like Martintg. TFD ( talk) 04:20, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Petri Krohn

I loathe getting in any way involved in the Wikipedia arbitration process and have thus far been able to avoid any involvement – so much so, that I have not even written a word to my defense in the now infamous WP:DIGWUREN case. However, someone, who wishes to remain anonymous, contacted me, and – knowing the strong feelings I have privately expressed about the issue at hand – implied that I am a pussy if I do not express my strongest objection to this motion. He also sent me evidence (see appendix) he had prepared in response to Martin's latest comments.

Martin's actions on the Internet, on and off Wikipedia, show that his only interest on the web is promoting a fringe nationalistic agenda, or in Wikipedia terms, he is a single purpose account. Since our paths first crossed sometime in early 2007 the underlying dispute has taken the form of a global ideological war over the legacy of the 20th century. I believe in some ways the early editing disputes and the formulation of opposing positions on Wikipedia talk pages have later influenced the positions some of the main players in this battle have taken. I may be as much involved in this ideological battle as Marting is. However I have not used Wikipedia article space as a platform to promote my fringe ideas. I will rather let the Historical Truth Commission and the Simon Wiesenthal Center speak for me.

From this POVish point of expertise I can testify that Marting is the chief battle axe of the opposing side. He is not the benign Wikignome he now pretends to be. Anything he touches will turn into distortion of facts or into a political battlefield. His presence on Wikipedia, in the contested subjects, is venom to the key principle of neutral point-of-view. So far he has shown no interest in editing outside his chosen battlefield, for example in his field of professional expertise.

For several years now Martin has been waging a politically motivated attack campaign against me, that is my Wikipedia account and the real life me. This has extended to multiple forums on the Internet outside Wikipedia. In the evidence sent to me were new instances of this campaign, unknown to me previously. If this proposed motion were to pass, I feel that I will finally have to start an arbitration case against Marting on this issue.

I have no objections to Martin using his freedom of speech to promote his ideas on the Internet. However, I cannot see why – having broken the key principles of Wikipedia – he should again be given a license to distort Wikipedia to fit his political agenda. -- Petri Krohn ( talk)

Amendment – I find this latest edit by Martintg a clear indication that he is NOT ready to enter into editing EE topics. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 06:16, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Vecrumba

To TheFourDeuces' gross misrepresentations, suppositions, and personal attacks, I invite him to provide evidence where anything I (or other EEML members) have represented on Wikipedia is other than a fair and accurate representation of reputable sources—and representing majority scholarly opinion on the Baltics and Eastern Europe. I regret that more than half a year has passed since imposition of the topic ban and TFD is not alone in continuing to demonstrate offensive bad faith in re-litigating EEML with unfounded charges.

I believe Martintg is ready to return to productive editing. If his behavior is less than exemplary, ArbCom will be watching. Perhaps a review at three months to "re-up" the lifting of his topic ban for the rest of the original term if impartial, uninvolved editors have a genuine concern. Martintg has nothing to fear from objective scrutiny. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ► TALK 23:27, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

@Jehochman: Please desist from further discussion of private correspondence. Any discussion of you emanated from your acting as a proxy filing an arbitration request as a direct result of Offliner's lobbying you. I regret needing to remind you that you were the origin and only reason for your own mention. This is the second instance of your discussing private correspondence and professing to be a victim of EEML editors. At least I now know (your feeling you were victimized when you, in fact, victimized Baltic and EE editors) where your outrageous accusation came from that I likened Giano to Nazi Germany at the EEML proceedings. Please consider taking your own advice and stepping away for a spot of tea. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ► TALK 01:17, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Artem Karimov

I will keep it short. Pro-nationalist editors involved in disrupting Wikipedia should be topic-banned for quite some time. I doubt that lifting Marting's ban would be a net positive for the project. Artem Karimov ( talk | edits) 12:52, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Jehochman

I oppose any loosening of sanctions on Martintg, unless there is a specific restriction against pursuing past disputes stemming from the EEML Case. Per my explanation here, Martintg has recently been violating or testing the limits of his existing topic ban. My name featured prominently in the mailing list archives as somebody to be neutralized. It is not at all appropriate for Martintg to be carrying on, today, a vendetta against me. Jehochman ^Talk 01:46, 30 August 2010 (UTC) and 12:15, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Recused on EEML. Shell ^babelfish 19:50, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
• Recused   Roger Davies ^talk 12:32, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose — Rlevse • Talk • 02:14, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

will think on this more. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:54, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

I am simply unconvinced. Would reconsider around Oct. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:55, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

• As with some of the other editors who were sanctioned in this decision, I would be agreeable to at least some curtailment or narrowing of the remedy—partly based on the feeling that the breadth of the remedy may have been wider than necessary to begin with, and in any event due to the lapse of time. Of course, if the remedy is lifted or narrowed, there would be a strong expectation that the problematic behaviors addressed in the original decision must not recur. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 18:11, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
  • My view remains as stated. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 15:29, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
• Looking at this, I'd be willing to let this go, with the caveat that there's not much wiggle room here, and that a return to previous behaviors will mean it's near-immediate reinstatement. SirFozzie ( talk) 20:41, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
• I would consider a lifting or narrowing of the restrictions now, or in the future between now and October but, will not be initiating that myself. I think more arbitrators need to comment first. Carcharoth ( talk) 23:14, 9 August 2010 (UTC) Update: Will post a motion this week. Carcharoth ( talk) 05:49, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Noting that I've read Martintg's response and the postings at the user talk pages of Newyorkbrad and Rlevse, and my votes remain as posted below. I would ask that the editors that oppose this amendment think twice before trying to dispute editing that Martintg does following the passing of the alternative amendment. It will only serve to promote more ill-feeling. At some point, you need to learn how to work together, even if that seems impossible right now. And if you can't work together, learn to avoid each other. Carcharoth ( talk) 18:56, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
• I think we had good success in the past with a more gradual return to the topic area, and I would support a more limited relaxation at this time. I am not, however, very favorable to removing it entirely at this time. —  Coren  ^(talk) 00:56, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Motion (Martintg topic ban)

Remedy 7 of Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list (" Martintg topic banned") is lifted.

There being 8 active Arbitrators, not counting 1 who is recused, the majority is 5.

Support

1. Carcharoth ( talk) 23:57, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Oppose

1. In favor of alternative motion below. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 01:25, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
2. Prefer the alternative. Risker ( talk) 05:13, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
3. Per above. Kirill  ^{[talk]  [prof]} 19:23, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
4. Too much too fast. Support alternative below. —  Coren  ^(talk) 15:26, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
5. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:00, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
6. Mailer Diablo 12:02, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Abstain

Recuse

1. Shell ^babelfish 20:12, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Alternative motion

Remedy 7 of Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list " Martintg topic banned") is replaced with the following:

Martintg ( talk · contribs) is topic banned from articles about national, cultural, or ethnic disputes within Eastern Europe, their associated talk pages, and any process discussion about these topics, until December 22, 2010 (one year from the closing of the original case).

Enacted - Dougweller ( talk) 16:21, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Support

1. I think this modification would allow Martintg to edit all the articles he's mentioned in his request, without getting involved in the nationalist dispute articles that have previously been troublesome for these editors. The existing broader topic-ban expires in December, and I've left that timing unchanged. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 01:25, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

   Some additional discussion is on my talkpage here. My apologies for the cross-posting, but I'd responded to both Martintg and Jehochman there before seeing that they'd posted here as well. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 01:56, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

2. Good alternative. Carcharoth ( talk) 01:54, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
3. Risker ( talk) 05:13, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
4. Kirill  ^{[talk]  [prof]} 19:23, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
5. This, I can support. —  Coren  ^(talk) 15:25, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
6. SirFozzie ( talk) 02:16, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
7. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:00, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
8. Mailer Diablo 12:02, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
9. KnightLago ( talk) 00:18, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Oppose

Abstain

Recuse

1. Shell ^babelfish 20:12, 28 August 2010 (UTC)