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Article promoted by Sturmvogel 66 ( talk) via MilHistBot ( talk) 14:20, 30 April 2021 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list reply

Edgar Kain

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Nominator(s): Zawed ( talk)

Edgar Kain ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Edgar Kain, also known as Cobber Kain, was the Royal Air Force's first flying ace of the Second World War. A New Zealander, he joined the RAF in 1936 and served with No. 73 Squadron in the early stages of the war. His successes saw him develop a high profile in the media during the Phoney War and Battle of France. A bit of a reckless flier, he was killed when he beat up his airfield on his way back to England on leave. This article was made GA in June last year. Thanks in advance to all those who stop by to review. Cheers, Zawed ( talk) 09:20, 16 February 2021 (UTC) reply

  • Images are freely licensed ( t · c) buidhe 09:51, 16 February 2021 (UTC) reply

Support Comments from AustralianRupert: G'day, thanks for your efforts with this article. I have a few minor prose comments/suggestions: AustralianRupert ( talk) 13:29, 5 March 2021 (UTC) reply

  • interestingly enough, I happened to run along Kain Avenue in Randwick only a couple of weeks ago when I was in Sydney on course; it is surrounded by several streets named after aces including Bluey Truscott, Les Clisby and Paddy Finucane, and battles including Lone Pine, Romani, Hamel, etc.
  • flight time at that time: is there a way to avoid saying "time" twice in the same sentence?
rephrased. Zawed ( talk) 09:33, 6 March 2021 (UTC) reply
  • help weed out: seems a bit informal; perhaps "help identify"?
Have gone with filtered. Zawed ( talk) 09:33, 6 March 2021 (UTC) reply
  • New Zealand slang for a friend: not really actionable, but of course the term was also prevalent in Australia; my earliest memory of my grandfather is of him introducing me to a "6th Divvy cobber" in the main street of in the small town I grew up in
TBH, I've always thought of it as Aussie rather than NZ slang myself. I've checked Burns to see if it referred to Australia using this term but it doesn't. Zawed ( talk) 08:12, 7 March 2021 (UTC) reply
  • although its pilots had yet to be fully proficient --> "although its pilots were not yet fully proficient"?
Done. Zawed ( talk) 09:33, 6 March 2021 (UTC) reply
  • was published in the London Gazette: italics for the title?
Done. Zawed ( talk) 09:33, 6 March 2021 (UTC) reply
  • suggest maybe joining the second and third sentences of the first paragraph of the Second World War section
Done. Zawed ( talk) 09:33, 6 March 2021 (UTC) reply
  • the next two weeks and the squadron --> "the next two weeks and his squadron"?
Done. Zawed ( talk) 09:33, 6 March 2021 (UTC) reply
  • This second Bf 109 may have been flown: probably best to attribute the opinion in text, e.g "According to X, this second..."
Done. Zawed ( talk) 08:12, 7 March 2021 (UTC) reply
  • spend time with Joyce Phillips: probably just Phillips here as she has been introduced already
Done. Zawed ( talk) 09:33, 6 March 2021 (UTC) reply
  • attend his wedding to Joyce Phillips: same as the above
Done. Zawed ( talk) 09:33, 6 March 2021 (UTC) reply
  • It had been receiving an influx of fresh pilots --> "It received an influx of fresh pilots"
Done. Zawed ( talk) 09:33, 6 March 2021 (UTC) reply
  • he was grounded by No. 73 Squadron's commander: do we know why?
Not explicitly, but it was probably for a rest. I have added more context for his physical/mental state at the time so that the reader can make the connection. Zawed ( talk) 08:12, 7 March 2021 (UTC) reply
  • City of Randwick, on the outskirts of Sydney, Australia, it might be because I am from the country myself, but I wouldn't have thought that Randwick was on the outskirts of Sydney; its an eastern suburb.
Rephrased.

Thanks for the review AR, I have responded to most points. For the rest, I will pull out my copy of Burns to deal with those. Cheers, Zawed ( talk) 09:33, 6 March 2021 (UTC) reply

AustralianRupert, I have finished this off now, see my comments. Thanks again. Zawed ( talk) 08:12, 7 March 2021 (UTC) reply
No worries, your changes look good to me. Added my support above. Regards, AustralianRupert ( talk) 08:24, 7 March 2021 (UTC) reply
  • Hawkeye7, thanks for the support. Zawed ( talk) 07:27, 25 March 2021 (UTC) reply

Support from HF

Will take a look soon. Hog Farm Talk 01:59, 19 April 2021 (UTC) reply

  • "By early February 1940, the thaw was well underway but this affected the runway of the aerodrome which prone to bogging" - I think there's a word missing here
  • ", the squadron was in the process re-equipping with updated Hurricanes" - Process of re-equipping?
  • Another missing word, fixed. Zawed ( talk) 10:15, 20 April 2021 (UTC) reply
  • "Kain had a high-profile both in Britain and the Dominions" - With the current use of high-profile, it is an adjective. Do you mean the noun form as "high profile"?
  • Yes, noun form (I had to look it up!). Zawed ( talk) 10:15, 20 April 2021 (UTC) reply
  • Does the EL really add anything signficant?
  • Nothing that isn't already in the article. Zawed ( talk) 10:15, 20 April 2021 (UTC) reply

Looks good besides those points, anticipate supporting. Hog Farm Talk 14:45, 19 April 2021 (UTC) reply

  • Thanks for the review HF, much appreciated. I have responded above/made edits in reply to your feedback. Thanks again, Zawed ( talk) 10:15, 20 April 2021 (UTC) reply

Comments Support by Pendright

Lead:

Is it necessary to link aviation?
It's neither here or there for me, I have removed the link. Zawed ( talk) 09:52, 21 April 2021 (UTC) reply
  • He completed his flight training the following year and was posted to the RAF's No. 73 Squadron where he flew the Gloster Gladiator and then the Hawker Hurricane.
How about a comma after Squadron?
Done. Zawed ( talk) 09:52, 21 April 2021 (UTC) reply
  • He began flying operational sorties during the Phoney War and gained his first victory in November 1939. A second followed days later.
  • "victory" -> How about aerial victory?
  • A second followed days later. -> What is the subject of this sentence?
  • It is another victory, I have clarified further. Zawed ( talk) 09:52, 21 April 2021 (UTC) reply
  • In March 1940 he claimed his fifth victory and became the RAF's first flying ace of the Second World War as well as its first recipient of the Distinguished Flying Cross.
  • Victory, same as above?
  • I didn't link it here because it is linked in the first sentence. Zawed ( talk) 09:52, 21 April 2021 (UTC) reply
  • Add a comma after victory
  • The Phoney War ended on 10 May 1940 when the German invasion of France and the Low Countries began.
A comma after 1940 will recognize this for what it is, an introductory phrase or element.
  • On 7 June 1940, having bid farewell to his squadron and in a gesture to his comrades, he took off in a Hurricane to perform a series of low-level aerobatics over Échemines airfield. He crashed at high speed and was killed instantly.
The transition between these two sentences is rather abrupt -> How about beginning the second sentence like this: While performing one of these maneuvers, he crashed at high speed and was killed instantly?
  • At the end of the lead, consider adding where and when he was buried?

Early life:

  • He was passionate about aviation from an early age and was eager to fly.
Second "was" can be deleted
  • He was also seen as a natural leader. However, he was also academically unmotivated.
Consider combining these two short sentences into one?
  • He started working as a clerk in his father's warehousing business but also became a member of the Wellington Aero Club.
but also -> and also might be the better choice here?

Military career:

  • He was told to reapply once he had acclimatised, the lengthy voyage from New Zealand having taken its toll on his fitness.
Isn't a semcolon called for here rather than a comma?
  • This had effect from 8 March 1937, for a probationary period of 12 months calculated from the commencement of his elementary training, and with the service number 39534.[8][9]
Consider this version: His probationary period of 12 months began on 8 March 1937, and it was calculated from the commencement of his elementary training along with the assigned service number 39534.
  • Done, partly. I rethought the placement of the mention of the service number. Zawed ( talk) 20:01, 21 April 2021 (UTC) reply
  • He gained his wings on 25 June 1937 and went onto RAF Ternhill a few months later for advanced training on fighters, flying the Hawker Fury.
on, onto, and on?
  • By this time, he was becoming [Kain had become] proficient in aerobatics[,] but he had also been disciplined for performing stunts at too low a height.[10]
Consider the above suggestion?

In mid-September 1938, during the Sudetenland crisis, the squadron was placed on standby although its pilots were not yet fully proficient in the Hurricane.

  • Add a comma after standby
  • Add the word flying between in and the.
  • In June 1939, Kain crashed during a night flying exercise[,] when he forgot to lock the undercarriage while landing.
Consider the above suggestion
  • He had become distracted by the aircraft's handling which, because a panel had come loose, had been compromised.
Unclear?
  • Rephrased, hopefully it is clearer now. Zawed ( talk) 11:08, 21 April 2021 (UTC) reply
  • n fact, he had been promoted to flying officer earlier in the month.[19][20]
  • Did the promotion change his responsibiltes
  • It isn't stated in the source, it is still quite a junior rank. Zawed ( talk) 11:08, 21 April 2021 (UTC) reply
  • You might change he to Kain?
  • Would prefer not to, I use Kain at the end of the previous sentence so it would be two close instances if changed. Zawed ( talk) 11:08, 21 April 2021 (UTC) reply

Note:

  • This section is realy about military aerial training?
  • I'm comfortable with the heading title; I often use it as a section heading in bios for military personnel who joined the armed forces in peace time. Zawed ( talk) 20:19, 21 April 2021 (UTC) reply
<>An nteresting point of view, but section headings are topical - they are about the subject at hand and should be stated in a clear and specific way. Your call, though! Pendright ( talk) 04:47, 23 April 2021 (UTC) reply

Second World War:

  • It was intended that it should go to France as the Air Component of the British Expeditionary Force (BEF), designated part of No. 60 Mobile Wing, along with No. 1 Squadron.[21]
  • Change should to would
  • Chage the comma to a semicolon
  • Add as between designated & part
  • Remove the comma after wing
  • Weather prevented flying for much of the next two weeks and his squadron moved to an airfield near St. Omer towards the end of the month.[24]
Add the definite article before weather.

Phoney War

  • No. 73 Squadron's new base was close to the border between France and Germany and No. 60 Mobile Wing was attached to the Advanced Air Striking Force (AASF), several squadrons of Fairey Battles of Bomber Command.[26]
How about a comma after Germany?
  • With the wing now re-designated as No. 67 Wing, weather affected the flight operations for several days[34] but Kain had another successful encounter on 23 November, near Conflans, when he shot down another Do 17.
  • Add "conditions" after weather
  • Add a comma after days
  • had "another" - shot down "another"?
  • Deleted the first "another". Zawed ( talk) 11:08, 21 April 2021 (UTC) reply
  • There was little flying from December to February due to the weather[.] and Kain spent some of this period in England on leave with Joyce Phillips,[37] a theatre actress he had met while completing his flight training in 1937.[38]
Consider the above suggestion?
  • The weather still permitted the occasional patrol; on one in late January, his flight encountered a Heinkel He 111medium bomber but Kain's guns failed to fire, which was later put down to them being frozen.
  • Shouldn't it be patrols?
  • Suggest removing the comma after January?
  • "which wwas later put down to them being frozen" -> Think about some rephrasing here?
  • Rephrased, how does it read now? Zawed ( talk) 11:08, 21 April 2021 (UTC) reply
  • His aircraft received damage from the He 111's gunner and on landing, he found it to be a write-off.[40]
  • Change gunner to guns?
  • Place a comma after gunner or guns?
  • Remove the comma after landing?
  • write-off -> Consider a substitute word or words?
  • By early February 1940, the thaw was well underway but this affected the runway of the aerodrome which prone to bogging.
Remove the comma after 1940 and place after underway
  • Conditions improved on 1 March 1940, and the following day Kain fought an action with two Messerschmitt Bf 109 fighters while in pursuit of some He 111s.
"Weather" conditions?
  • In mid-March, he was informed of his impending award of the Distinguished Flying Cross (DFC) in recognition of the action earlier in the month during which he had shot down his first Bf 109.
Considet removing the comma after midMarch and placing it after (DFC)?
  • He managed to destroy one Bf 109 and then a second but shortly afterwards his Hurricane's engine was damaged by a cannon strike from another Bf 109.
Add a comma after second
  • Landing near a French unit, he was driven back to Rouvres in the evening.
Could a few details of the event be added?
  • Have expanded a bit on this. Zawed ( talk) 20:19, 21 April 2021 (UTC) reply
  • Tensions were high as a result of the German invasions of Norway and Denmark and the Luftwaffe had increased its presence along the French border with Germany.[59]
How about a comma after Denmark?

Battle of France

  • No. 73 Squadron was immediately involved, as several Hurricanes were scrambled to deal with a number of German bombers.
Is "were" needed?
  • On the last patrol of the day he shot down a Do 215 although cannon shells from a Bf 110 damaged the fuselage of his Hurricane.[68]
A comma after 215, will join the two independent clauses?
  • The aerodrome at Reims was bombed again on 12 May but[,] this did not affect the squadron's operations[,] and in the afternoon, it flew a number of missions.
"this did not affect the squadron's operations" -> This phrase is supplemental information and is usually set off by commas because it is not essential to the meaning of the sentence?
  • Your placement of commas didn't quite make sense to me, I moved one to before the " but". Zawed ( talk) 11:08, 21 April 2021 (UTC) reply

*Over the next two days, Luftwaffe activity around Sedan increased in support of the tanks of Panzer Group Kleist as iKain had no successful engagements on 13 May to add to his official tally of destroyed aircraft but the same day a newspaper reported that he may have destroyed as much as eleven enemy aircraft and Kain himself had "lost count".[70]

  • At about 63 words, cosider breaking this sentence up? Pendright ( talk) 04:47, 23 April 2021 (UTC) reply
  • There's an issue with your cut and paste here, that isn't one long sentence but part of two with a third (which wasn't included above) in between the two (the last sentence of that cut and paste is approximately 40 words). Zawed ( talk) 11:08, 21 April 2021 (UTC) reply

iKain -> Sp Pendright ( talk) 04:47, 23 April 2021 (UTC) reply

  • As above, that's an issue with the cut and paste. Zawed ( talk) 20:19, 21 April 2021 (UTC) reply
Scratched, my apology! Pendright ( talk) 04:47, 23 April 2021 (UTC) reply
  • Officially, he shot down his tenth enemy aircraft, a Bf 109, the next day.
Since this is just a 14 word sentence, deleting the comma after Officially might be a better read?
  • On 15 May, Kain's section encountered a Do 17, flying on its own, and began to initiate an attack.
"flying on its own"?
  • That bit is kinda redundant isn't it - deleted. Zawed ( talk) 11:08, 21 April 2021 (UTC) reply
  • Without having fired his guns, Kain saw the crew of the bomber promptly bail to leave the now pilot-less bomber to fly on deeper into France.[72]
  • "Without having fired his guns," -> Without firing his guns?
  • "the crew of the bomber" -> Previous sentence identifies the aircraft as a Do 17?
The Do 17 is a bomber. When mentioning a particular type of aircraft for the first time, I give the designation and its role. For the Do 17, it is first mentioned in the early part of the Phoney War section. Zawed ( talk) 11:08, 21 April 2021 (UTC) reply
  • "promptly bail to leave the now pilot-less bomber to fly on" -> Do you mean "balout and"?
  • I did, and fixed. It still amazes how I can not see an obviously missing word when proofing. Zawed ( talk) 11:08, 21 April 2021 (UTC) reply
  • pilot-less -> British dictionaries seem to spell it as one word?
It received an influx of fresh pilots and Kain helped with their introduction to operational flying before,
  • Suggest breaking the sentence here?
  • Can a number be assigned to influx?
  • From the source, it looks to be either 8 or 9. I put in "nearly ten". Zawed ( talk) 20:00, 21 April 2021 (UTC) reply
  • Before does not seem to fit?
  • Deleted with my edit above. Zawed ( talk) 11:08, 21 April 2021 (UTC) reply
  • The first two days of June were quiet but then the squadron received orders to move to Le Mans and operate from an advanced airfield at Échemines.[87]
How about comma after quiet?
  • Battle of France -> Battle for France?
  • I think you mean the heading? I prefer "of" since that is the common name for the battle. Zawed ( talk) 11:08, 21 April 2021 (UTC) reply

@ Zawed: Finished - Pendright ( talk) 06:51, 21 April 2021 (UTC) reply

  • Almost done, just a couple left that require me to pull out the source from storage. Zawed ( talk) 11:08, 21 April 2021 (UTC) reply
  • @ Pendright:, as always you provide a thoroughly considered review, thank you. I have responded to your points with comments and edits. Note that one of your comments related to a sentence in the second paragraph of the Battle of France but the text you cut and pasted from the article was incomplete so the comment provided didn't make sense, so you will need to look at that again. Thanks again. Zawed ( talk) 20:19, 21 April 2021 (UTC) reply
@ Zawed: - Thank you for all of your responses and kind words. I've replied to one in the Military career section and the other in the Battle of France section, nether require further action. Supporting! Pendright ( talk) 04:58, 23 April 2021 (UTC) reply
Thanks for the support. Zawed ( talk) 10:08, 23 April 2021 (UTC) reply

Source review -- pass

Hi, just noticed this and don't want to slow things with a copyedit and prose review so will restrict myself to a source review, which would be needed before promotion. Formatting looks fine, as does reliability except I'm a little unsure of Burns, which is heavily relied upon (unsuprisingly as it's the only full-length bio present) -- I might be ignorant but I'm just not familiar with the work, the author or the publisher, and when all three of those turn up a negative for me I like to know what makes this a reliable source (and, for that matter, since I assume FAC is the next stage) a "high-quality" one? Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 15:46, 29 April 2021 (UTC) reply

Hi Ian, thanks for stopping by. Burns is a source for Kain's entry on the NZ Dictionary of Biography, see here, and according to the author bio on the back cover of the book, he was a commissioning editor for Blandford Press' military books. The bio says he has written several military aviation books including "Bader - The Man and his Men" (1990), "The Queen's Flight - the Authorised Fiftieth Anniversary History" (1986), and "Spitfire! Spitfire!" (1986). It also says he has written articles and reviews for a wide range of military and aviation magazines. Random Century doesn't seem to exist anymore but I think at the time, it may have been a New Zealand imprint of Random House. On the publishers page it says "Associated companies, branches and representatives throughout the world". Does that help? Zawed ( talk) 20:12, 29 April 2021 (UTC) reply
Tks mate, I'm happy with that -- being reasonably experienced with WWII Commonwealth ace bios it was a bit surpising to draw a complete blank with this source but then I've never worked on a WWII Kiwi ace... ;-) I'd like to have done a full review but perhaps if it goes to FAC... Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 06:50, 30 April 2021 (UTC) reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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