I will start by reviewing the lead. This article should be an overall interesting read.
Snuggums (
talk /
edits) 03:50, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
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- Occupations tend not to be linked
- Describing her as a "fashion icon" in the lead seems like puffery, even if often noted for her fashion
- The quotes from Phill Marder and Mark Bego belong in the article body (probably "legacy and influence") rather than here
- Give the names of specific nations when listing chart positions
- I'd mention what show she performed in on Broadway when talking about her Broadsay debut
- For accolades, keep the focus on what she won; a mere nomination she lost isn't particularly notable compared to her actual wins
- "ended up as the highest-grossing music tour by a female artist then" → "became the highest-grossing music tour by a female artist at the time", and I'd give a figure for earnings
- Give the specific U.S. position Closer to the Truth reached
- Done "Cher's first studio album in 12 years,
Closer to the Truth (2013), became her highest-charting solo album in the U.S. to date at number three."
Lordelliott (
talk) 15:33, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "each of the past six decades"..... see WP:RELTIME
- Done "She is the only artist to date to have a number-one single on a
Billboard chart in each decade from the 1960s to the 2010s."
Lordelliott (
talk) 16:11, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "one of the best-selling music artists of all time" is a big claim; be sure it is supported in the article body with a VERY reliable source
- Although she is featured on Wikipedia's
List of best-selling music artists (with certified sales around the world proving it), I can not find a single source that says "Cher is one of the best-selling music artists of all time" as stated on the article. The same happens with other artists cited on this list, with the exception of artists who are the best-selling acts in their respective categories (
Madonna is the best-selling female singer of all time,
Michael Jackson is the best-selling male singer of all-time,
The Beatles are the best-selling band of all time – all of them recognized by
Guinness World Records). Shall we remove the "one of the best-selling music artists of all time" claim?
Lordelliott (
talk) 16:11, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
reply
- For now, I would say yes. Including such a claim solely based on what another article says goes against WP:CIRCULAR. She's different from the examples you gave since they have specific claims/awards.
Snuggums (
talk /
edits) 16:17, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
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I'll be back with more later.
Snuggums (
talk /
edits) 04:07, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
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Continuing.....
- Life and career
-
- Early life
- Ethnicity tends not to be linked
- It would be better to use something more definitive than "claimed" ancestry.
- Done → "... and her mother,
Jackie Jean Crouch, was an occasional model and bit-part actress with Irish, English, German and Cherokee ancestry."
Lordelliott (
talk) 02:45, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
reply
- No need to state how many marriages her mother had here; that belongs in her own article. Let's just go with "from her mother's subsequent marriage to actor John Southall, Cher has a half-sister named Georganne"
- Is "creativity" in "Cher's family first noticed her creativity when in the fifth grade" a neutral term?
- I can't think of a better term... Maybe "inventiveness"?
Lordelliott (
talk) 02:45, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
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- I can't really either, probably best to just remove that altogether and go with "When Cher was in fifth grade"
- Remove the comma after "half-sister" in "and her half-sister, Georganne"
- "Cher began to pattern her outfits and behavior after the eccentric, fast-living character portrayed by Hepburn"..... try "Cher began to take after the unconventional outfits and behavior of Hepburn's character".
- "good grades" → "high grades"
More will follow after these are addressed.
Snuggums (
talk /
edits) 23:45, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
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- 1960s
- Sonny and Cher's rise and fall from pop stardom
- Sonny's age is unnecessary detail
- "the unsuccessful 'Ringo, I Love You'"..... specify whether you mean critically unsuccessful, commercially unsuccessful, or both
- I think it flopped both critically and commercially. I found
this source that says: "'Ringo, I Love You' was produced by Bono's pal Phil Spector and flopped out of the gate, since too many people thought the singer sounded like a man." Does it help? Is it worth mentioning?
Lordelliott (
talk) 05:19, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
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- You don't necessarily need the quote, but I would say it was commercially unsuccessful. No preference on whether to include that it was panned, but if you do, be sure to give examples of what critics said.
Snuggums (
talk /
edits) 00:07, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
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- "issued under the name Bonnie Jo Mason" → "which Cher recorded under the name Bonnie Jo Mason"
- "the poorly received singles"..... see above note on "unsuccessful"
- The
source says: "Sonny even got a record deal for Caesar & Cleo with Reprise Records. The deal was for three singles only. If any of them became hits, the company could offer them a long-term deal. They proceeded to record three cover versions of other people's hits that were each released as singles by the company. The three songs were 'Do You Wanna Dance?', 'Love Is Strange', and 'Let The Goodtimes Roll.' Somehow Caesar & Cleo weren't making any waves in the record world ...". Can we assume that the singles were commercial flops based on this excerpt?
Lordelliott (
talk) 05:45, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
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- "Sonny came along as her producer"..... became her producer
- "received airplay in Los Angeles"..... rather vague in terms of commercial success (or lack thereof)
- The
source says: "A Spector-ish version of "Dream Baby" managed to get airplay in Los Angeles, becoming a local hit, and they suspected they were onto something"... Nothing more. Can we work from that source?
Lordelliott (
talk) 05:45, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
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- For the first mention of Billboard charts, it helps to indicate they are from the United States since not everyone is familiar with the nation's chart names
- "reached the Billboard 200 top 20"..... let's be more specific and say it reached number 16.
- "remaining on the chart for six months" is better for the album's article, though topping a chart for that long would be worth mentioning here
-
This is the correct link for "I Got You Babe"'s peak, and you'll need a separate source for Bruce Eder's quote
- "by designing a clothing line"..... I don't think "designing" needs to be linked, and let's give the name of this clothing line
- The Parish & Pitts source does not give its name; actually it is the only source I can find for this Cher-designed clothing line (and I've searched a lot of books). Shall we remove it?
Lordelliott (
talk) 05:57, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
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-
- As the Parish & Pitts source is the only one I can find that gives Cher credit for designing this 1966 clothing line, I decided to rework this part based on
this source; now it reads: "In February 1966, Sonny and Cher released a clothing line that included bell-bottoms and blouses for girls and unisex bobcast vests." Better?
Lordelliott (
talk) 05:24, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
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- See above note on "remaining on the chart for six months" regarding "spent eight consecutive weeks at number two on the Billboard 200 behind the Beatles' Help!"
- I think this is worth mentioning. The Beatles were an unprecedent phenomenon in 1965, so S&C's debut album staying eight weeks at number two on the Billboard 200 chart only behind a Beatles album is quite a feat. Don't you agree?
Lordelliott (
talk) 05:57, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
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- I'm well aware of how dominant the Beatles were. At least remove the "behind the Beatles' Help!" bit so the article maintains more focus on Cher's material.
Snuggums (
talk /
edits) 00:07, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Something about the tone of "smooth sound" and "warm harmonies" doesn't seem right
- Maybe "their easy-listening sound" would work better?
Lordelliott (
talk) 05:57, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
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-
- "hits" in "mid-level hits" and "top-ten hits" is too informal, and it doesn't help to list a number like you did in "six top-ten hits" without giving their names
- Give specific song names for "they had five songs in the top 20"
- Searched the Billboard archives and couldn't find a single week in which S&C had five singles simultaneously on the Top 20. The source is her official website (probably press-release puffery) and it is currently down, so I'm removing it.
Lordelliott (
talk) 06:18, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
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- "a song with exotic-sounding Gypsy violins and a dramatic vocal delivery" is for the song's article rather than here
- What are "stateside" in "stateside version" and "square" in "were quite 'square' when it came to sex and drugs" referring to?
- Cher recorded the first American (stateside) version of the now-popular song "Alfie". "Square" refers to Sonny and Cher, as they were considered old fashioned for not doing drugs like other rock musicians and their following. Should these sentences be clarified? If so, how?
Lordelliott (
talk) 06:47, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
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- I'd reword the "square" bit to say they didn't do as much sex and drugs
Snuggums (
talk /
edits) 00:07, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
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- The term "square" is inside this quote: According to biographer Mark Bego, "in spite of their revolutionary unisex clothes, Sonny and Cher were quite 'square' when it came to sex and drugs." It could only be reworded if we did paraphrasing. What would you suggest?
Lordelliott (
talk) 05:09, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
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- "childish" doesn't seem necessary or very formal
- Done Removed the "in which they are featured in childish skits" part entirely.
Lordelliott (
talk) 06:47, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
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- See above note on "unsuccessful" for Good Times
- "was not a success"..... please elaborate
-
- I would use what Sonny's memoir itself says for details on their relationship and marriage
- Nice suggestion! I will try to get my hands on Sonny's autobiography and see what I can do.
Lordelliott (
talk) 07:07, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "The art film failed"..... vague
-
- "some critics noted that Cher showed signs of acting potential"..... give specific examples
- Done "Cue magazine wrote, 'Cher has a marvelous quality that often makes you forget the lines you are hearing.'"
Lordelliott (
talk) 07:04, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "made it a success"..... see previous comments
- The
source says: "The heckling became the best part of the act and the audiences slowly returned." What would you suggest?
Lordelliott (
talk) 06:50, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
reply
-
Let's get these out of the way before any further input
Snuggums (
talk /
edits) 04:23, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
reply
- 1970s
- Television and musical success, solo career
- "The Sonny & Cher Comedy Hour received 12 Emmy Award nominations"..... see above note on how nominations aren't as noteworthy on actual wins
Snuggums (
talk /
edits) 00:07, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "first solo number-one single"..... which nation?
- "It became the biggest-selling single in the history of MCA Records"..... give a figure
-
- In that case, remove the "best-selling single" claim for now until a figure can be found
Snuggums (
talk /
edits) 18:27, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "was nominated for the Grammy Award for Best Female Pop Vocal Performance"..... same rationale as Emmys/Oscars
This is a rather long section and I don't have time to review it in full yet. Probably gonna do this and the rest of these bit by bit.
Snuggums (
talk /
edits) 00:07, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "hits" in "contemporary hits" is too informal
- "demonstrating the evolution of her vocal abilities" sounds like fancruft
- "became Cher's second U.S. solo number-one single" needs a citation since RIAA doesn't take into account chart positions
- Looking through RIAA's database, I only see a gold certification for the song "Half-Breed", nothing for the album
- RIAA's searchable database is a bit messed up, as you probably know. In this
link, click "Advanced [+]" > "Artist Name", type "Cher" and click in the "search" button. Now go to the third page; you'll find that both the album and the single were certified Gold; the album name reads "Half Breed", while the single name reads "Half-Breed". :-)
Lordelliott (
talk) 23:04, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
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- I don't see "proven superstar who always sells records" anywhere in the given citation
- Please
look again; it is written in a mini-review for her album Greatest Hits, the fourth album review of the page. "Dealers: A proven superstars who always sells records. Place this one in MOR as well as rock and pop and take full advantage."
Lordelliott (
talk) 23:04, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "Sonny and Cher's career was revived with four albums released under Kapp Records and MCA Records"..... give the album's names
- "Cher commented on her hectic schedule during this period"..... try "During this period, Cher stated"
- Changed to "Cher later commented on her hectic schedule during this period" for clarification, since this is statement was not made during this period but about this period.
Lordelliott (
talk) 18:06, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
reply
- Actually, something even better would just be "Cher later stated that at the time"
Snuggums (
talk /
edits) 21:51, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
reply
- Using "By late 1972, Cher's marriage with Sonny was over" doesn't seem right when they didn't even separate until 1974; I would if anything say they had marital problems instead
- "Sonny went on without Cher and renamed the show The Sonny Comedy Revue. It was canceled after six weeks." needs to be rewritten since it is extremely close paraphrasing to the source's words "Sonny went on without Cher and renamed the show The Sonny Comedy Revue. The show was canceled after six weeks."
- "replaced by a Sonny and Cher show"..... did her original show with him replace the Cher show?
- Done → "replaced by a new Sonny and Cher Show"
Lordelliott (
talk) 18:06, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
reply
- How did Stars become a "cult classic" after initial negative reviews?
-
-
- Ok, I understand now. The
source says: "A number of ill-fated projects for Warner Brothers that began when her tenure at MCA Records ended in the mid-1970s have gone on to become not only cult classics, but highly-prized collectibles as well. Case in point is an album called Stars, featuring an amazing rendition of Geronimos Cadillac. Although its been out of print for years, it is generally considered one of her best, and demand for pristine copies of the album remains high." No detail on how the album managed to become a cult classic—I, as a fan, can say that this album is very worshipped among her fan base despite being out of print since the time of its release (it remains unreleased in CD), but that's all.
Lordelliott (
talk) 23:26, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
reply
- "were also commercially unsuccessful"..... seems odd to only note now that Stars was a commercial failure rather than in a previous sentence
- The URL for Cher and Other Fantasies is dead
- "hits" in "instant hits" is too informal
- "and thus a commercial failure"..... try "and led to its commercial failure"
I haven't looked through the entire article in detail, but can definitely say that this has a long way to go before it can become FA or even GA (I see this previously had two unsuccessful FAC's after a failed GAN). The close paraphrasing issue alone is rather worrisome, and the 1960s-1990s subsections of "life and career" are uncomfortably long to read when only split by decades. There also are bare URL's, incorrect uses of italics in references (i.e.
ABC News,
E!,
History shouldn't be italicized), subpar sources (i.e. Discogs, Huffington Post) and HARVref errors (use an
error-detecting script to find them). Be sure to also check for dead URL's. Best of luck,
Snuggums (
talk /
edits) 18:27, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Sad to see you are quitting. This is a very difficult article to work on; that's probably why most peer reviewers always quit way before we reach the end of the article. Sadly I, as a non-native English speaker, can not do much alone... Thanks for your input anyway. Cheers,
Lordelliott (
talk) 23:16, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
reply
- For the record, the Life and career subsections were rearranged to improve the reading flow.
Lordelliott (
talk) 18:13, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
reply
- Just did a massive review of the article. All of your points were addressed: there are no more subpar sources, formatting errors, dead links, or bare URL's. I would very be happy if you could take a new look at the article. : )
Lordelliott (
talk) 11:40, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
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